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[Korten]

Jesus, that hurt your feelings?

No, it just makes me depressed of what gaming culture has become.

 

[Dargor]

As far as I know, the game wasn't exactly cheap to make. "Diversity" would be quite obviously much better served by making five smaller games with lower costs instead of a single expensive one.

And in general, big budget, AAA, extreme focus tested games whose marketing budget is as much (or even twice as much) as their development budget are probably the worst thing for diversity.

Thats not how any industry works though. If they wanted to make this game, thats what they would fund. If they didn't fund this game there are no guarantees they would fund a similar game, nor five smaller ones. RaD wanted to make this game, Sony approved of their pitch and funded it. Thats all we can say.

But thats not the point at all, the point is that no one should wish for any type of games to be abandoned. Not AAA games, not indie games, not cinematic games, thats all I wanted to say. If you don't like it, just don't buy it. Thats not the issue.

The issue is wanting some games that other people might want to play to be abandoned. Thats all I'm against.

At least 50 million were spent making this game. These money could be spent making one or two real games instead of this "cinematic experience". For every single game made, there are games that got denied the chance. And you do know that big budget games like The Order are detrimental to the diversity of the video game industry in the first place, right? So there is a good chance that not having The Order made would actually inject more diversity into the industry.

Like I said to Flachmatuch above.

Though I have to ask, why do you keep saying that The Order is not a real game? Its proposition does not change the fact that it is a real game.

The problem of the AAA insdustry is not their big budget. Its the way they go about expending said budgets. Do you really think that to make a game like Destiny a U$500.000.000,00 budget was necessary? We have a real issue about over inflated budgets, misexpending and what not.

We still ways to go before about solving that issue.

But the AAA industry didn't stop no type of game from being made. We still have survival horrors, platformers, adventure games and all other types. Just cuz they are not AAA doesn't stop them from existing and being damn good.

But like I said. My issue is not with criticism, I, in fact, want more criticism. Thats how people learn. By commiting mistakes and having those mistakes fixed on their next venture.

Asking for publishers, developers, indies, etc, to stop making certain types of games will only make that process slower.

How will anyone make a better cinematic game than The Order if they stop making them? Yes, I want to play cinematic games too, they are real games and they do have an audience whos wishing to be satisfied.

ps: Sorry for taking so long to answer guys. I was driving, wouldn't be exactly a good idea to text and drive lol.

 

[Heartfyre]

Well, the reviews are in. That salvo is fired, and the game took a beating. The question now is, how will consumers respond? Do the masses care, or have they even noticed? GAF may well have a lot of cancelled pre-orders, but poor reviews didn't stop Destiny. Pachter may be in the clouds with five million sales, but I feel it'll be unwise to rule commercial success out at this stage. NPD will be interesting next month.

 

[timetokill]

No, it just makes me depressed of what gaming culture has become.

What has it become?

 

[hemo memo]

in all this 114 pages bashing the game, is there anyone here that already, you know, actually played the game?

I'm about to finish it right now.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

in all this 114 pages bashing the game, is there anyone here that already, you know, actually played the game?

How about the reviewers. You know, the people whos reviews we're discussing.

 

[Jingo]

Yes, I finished it a couple of days ago.

Is that bad?

 

[system11]

I suppose the upside is we will never have to deal with black bars again. Would also like to see chromatic aberration result in instant 0/10 scores.

 

[Korten]

What has it become?

A breeding ground for cyncisim and hate, where being excited or happy is actively discourage.

 

[anexanhume]

The amount of people who have warped the narrative to say that RAD and The Order are being punished for being innovative is mind-boggling. This is the most bland, riskless, straightforward game you could possibly design. It is so devoid of risk as to make me wonder whether there's actually been a portal opened to another dimension where a paint-by-numbers cover corridor shooter is a brave new voice in gaming. NeoGAF is the center of some singularity puncturing through to that other world and we're seeing this bizarroGAF's discussion about the innovative "Wait here and shoot the guys who walk back and forth for no reason other than to give you a better shot" rooms.

Everything that people voiced as fears and hated from the first reveal? Sticking with all of those was a risk. They didn't tone down QTE, they didn't eliminate black bars, they didn't tone back cut scene usage, etc.

 

[Withnail]

All technology and game development was done entirely in-house at RAD, they own the engine.

So yeah, you're right. Sony will have to decide whether to gamble again or walk away. I am sure MS would take them if they wanted to go that route.

No, Sony will own the engine.

 

[antitrop]

A breeding ground for cyncisim and hate, where being excited or happy is actively discourage.

Is it time for the persecution complex, already? You're seeing what you want to see. The world looks like shit through shit-colored glasses.

 

[Alienous]

I feel bad for these guys, this has to be a heartbreaker for them. The game clearly had a ton of care and attention to detail put into it. Unfortunately, this vision apparently is not what people wanted and the gameplay suffered because of their attention to everything else.

This game does not look to be that good if the consensus is right, and I feel bad for them because it doesn't seem to be because they didn't work really hard on it.

I struggle with that, because it very much seems like the hole they dug for themselves.

The Order: 1886 doesn't seem to be the victim of circumstance. It just seems like core game design that isn't up to par with the production quality of everything else. I don't even think it's a case of "Well, that's not technically feasible". The encounter design just seems poor. Enemy variety, AI, things like that. Those are things that are paramount in good game design. "How do I make this combat encounter interesting", "How do I make the enemies feel varied". If feels like these are discussions that RAD didn't take seriously enough, and are now suffering for it.

It's not "not quite right", like perhaps an Uncharted 3. It's poorly designed from a gameplay perspective where even glancing at the last 5 years of shooter games would have shown them that they were woefully off base.

 

[Wasteman]

1- As always, surprised by people surprised, we know there is something wrong with the gameplay since we first saw it in action.

2- As always, surprised by people claiming the youtube guy was a liar, while right now many players (and reviewers) ended the game in 6 hours or less.

3- As always, surprised by people defending a game or a studio as if they were playing their lives here- they should rather defend this industry from sharks, because it truly needs help right now.

4- Common, we are talking of $10 an hour or more

The very one thing that has to be said about The Order, and we could have said it a long time ago, is that the devs made a big mistake choosing that very very very cinematic experience, that frustrate you in a way we've never seen before.
They also probably lacked of times and chose to focus on visuals from the start.

Mistakes everywhere.
At least from a quality perspective.

Something wrong with the gameplay? Imagine you really loved this cinematic linear experience? Is there something still wrong with the gameplay?

You claim everything is a mistake but what about all the people who love it? I might fucking hate it, I might think it's shit however from what I hear it's techincally great and with a half decent story. A lot of people might enjoy this experiance. People fucking love CG heavy films, this is one with a interactive element. I can imagine people will dig the fuck out of it.

 

[OsirisBlack]

in all this 114 pages bashing the game, is there anyone here that already, you know, actually played the game?

Beat the game a while ago.

 

[HMD]

Is that bad?

I loved it because I like shiny graphics and "cinematic" games.

 

[meanspartan]

in all this 114 pages bashing the game, is there anyone here that already, you know, actually played the game?

This is a review thread.

Except for people who got their hands on it earl, or in cases where the embargo is after the release, this is exactly what review threads are.

 

[Palette Swap]

A breeding ground for cyncisim and hate, where being excited or happy is actively discourage.

Are you shitting me?
Every OT out there is free PR.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Well, the reviews are in. That salvo is fired, and the game took a beating. The question now is, how will consumers respond? Do the masses care, or have they even noticed? GAF may well have a lot of cancelled pre-orders, but poor reviews didn't stop Destiny. Pachter may be in the clouds with five million sales, but I feel it'll be unwise to rule commercial success out at this stage. NPD will be interesting next month.

Reviews are irrelevant really, and I'm willing to bet this game gets a large group of fans even if it's is by the numbers

 

[Pestilence11]

Think about it. 5 years including salary, hardware, software, marketing, etc. There was a delay so that means thier expense was more then expected. Making a game with these kinds of graphics is far more expensive than making a game with unique and interesting gameplay.

Even if this doesnt sink them, I really hope not, it will sting hard for sure.

I think it's a little premature to talk about any of that. There were 143 streams going for the game earlier when I looked and the game isn't even out yet. The only games with more streams were GTA/CoD and Dying Light. I think sales will be enough to at least make some profit.

 

[timetokill]

A breeding ground for cyncisim and hate, where being excited or happy is actively discourage.

Doesn't seem that way to me. Hype for games like Bloodborne seem to be continuing unabated.'

The OT for each game is basically positivity-central. Previews are almost always glowing, and you can't go through one impressions thread without tripping over a "Hype Train" post.

 

[sappyday]

The short length of the game already told me not to get it. I'm sorry if that bothers some but quality and the length of a game determines what I buy. The Order seems to not even hit both marks but even then I'll give it a shot once it hits $20 or less which might not be far away.

 

[Wabba]

That's why The Last of Us was praised to high heaven, PC games such as Gone Home and the Stanley Parable have been praised, Journey and The Walking Dead being GOTY winners and contenders.

Its understandable if people forget that these games existed, but to speak like critics have all of a sudden performed some sort of heel turn? That's bullshit. Linear experiences aren't being trashed, bad games are.

I wouldn't put The Last of Us in a linear category. The story and the progression is linear, but the way you play it is not. But according to the question i think that the market is big enough for different kind of games. I don't want every game to be open world games, but again i want even the linear games to give me choices to tackle the situation in a different manner. Games like The Walking Dead is super scripted but they give me the illusion that it is me that makes the decision.

 

[Visceir]

I hope RAD gets the chance to make a sequel. Things went wrong with the first game, but I'm still confident they can learn from this, have someone else head the project and release something really good within the next 2 years.

 

[Maxim726X]

in all this 114 pages bashing the game, is there anyone here that already, you know, actually played the game?

I mean, it's a review thread. None of us are pretending to have played the games.

We're discussing... The reviews.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Honestly, nothing about this makes me cynical. Why would it? For me, cynical would be if a game that apparently doesn't execute on its concepts very well, and was hidden away from consumers as long as possible, got a pass for being pretty and having lots of money involved in its production. I've got nothing against the type of game it is. I fucking loved Asura's Wrath, I play visual novels on the regular, Gears was one of my favorite series last gen, I liked Daxter, I own a PS4 and am hella excited for Bloodborne in a month.

I'm not happy The Order isn't doing well, but I am happy people aren't ignoring its faults for what I view to be weaker virtues.

 

[Archaix]

Everything that people voiced as fears and hated from the first reveal? Sticking with all of those was a risk. They didn't tone down QTE, they didn't eliminate black bars, they didn't tone back cut scene usage, etc.

That "First reveal" was 80% of the way through development. Aside from the black bars, none of those things were evident until the last year (and the last few months) when they were showing gameplay videos. This game has been in development for 5 years, there was no way for them to change direction by the time the negative reactions started hitting unless they wanted to slap on another few years of development time. At that point you may as well release what you have and not sink more money into trying to chase what people wanted 3 years ago when they were complaining.

 

[Qwark]

Though I feel like it's important to point out that Insomniac was pushed into FUSE. It never seemed like the game they wanted to make.

In three years, are we going to see RAD saying The Order was shitty and forced upon them and they wanted to stick to their original vision? I doubt it, but even if it does happen, I suspect it will be Molyneux-like in sincerity when he does the exact same thing.

Pushed by who, EA? I've never heard of this before. The initial look of Fuse, Overload(?) definitely looked right up Insomniac's alley. I could see the retooling being forced on them though.

 

[Steel]

Things have changed over the last 3 years in the console space.

Really? Linear shooters are still pretty dime a dozen. The campaign of COD/BF, The Last of Us, Uncharted, Gears, wolfenstein, Bioshock, etc. are all very much still relevant.

 

[Xaero Gravity]

OT complaining about lack of "professionalism" from reviewers.

I dunno, while I guess some of the mocking in tweets may cross the line a bit, I far FAR prefer that over just handing out a minimum of 8s for being a AAA game.

Yup. I had to stop reading the thread because of that crap, and this is from someone that's actually enjoying the game. I can tell a segment of the game's audience is going to end up souring me on it if I keep reading through their posts, which is what happened with Driveclub.

 

[Sweep14]

Well, the reviews are in. That salvo is fired, and the game took a beating. The question now is, how will consumers respond? Do the masses care, or have they even noticed? GAF may well have a lot of cancelled pre-orders, but poor reviews didn't stop Destiny. Pachter may be in the clouds with five million sales, but I feel it'll be unwise to rule commercial success out at this stage. NPD will be interesting next month.

The Order still at #7 in Amazon's best seller chart. That doesn't mean everything but still...

 

[QaaQer]

That's why The Last of Us was praised to high heaven, PC games such as Gone Home and the Stanley Parable have been praised, Journey and The Walking Dead being GOTY winners and contenders.

Its understandable if people forget that these games existed, but to speak like critics have all of a sudden performed some sort of heel turn? That's bullshit. Linear experiences aren't being trashed, bad games are.

*console* space, i.e. big retail games. I'm not going to get into a list ware, but iirc we have three main categories now. military multiplayer, sports, and open world w/ rpg mechanics. Most of the releases fit into that, not all, but most.

 

[~ Zyzomys ~]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-u5tvQC34
Best thing that came out of this thread

I made the mistake of watching this at the office and could not stop laughing.

Cheers

 

[Forensic Scene]

Not cancelling my pre-order, still want to see this game.

 

[hohoXD123]

I hope he stays off twitter/doesn't talk to the press for a while, TB gave some good advice IMO http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1skov0u

Yours didnt, you arrogantly assumed that 5 hours was enough for a $60 videogame and that 2 hours of those being cutscenes was totally ok because MUH CINEMATIC VISION. It's astonishingly disrespectful to the millions of consumers with very limited entertainment budgets and they will remember it. I hope they didnt preorder.

TB also arrogantly assumes that everyone has the same idea of value as him. He's mostly ok but sometimes can be pretty annoying with stuff like this.

 

[KooopaKid]

Well this finally killed the hype. It was a pain to see the excitement based on the graphics and the setting alone. That said I had the same first impressions with TLOU and I was wrong. Not this time

 

[HitCtrlAltDel]

There should be space in the video game business to make products which are targeted to excel in the visual presentation so they can be judged on those merits alone. Why should such visual masterpieces be tied down by expectation of people who do not understand the true goals of the product. I read many fans wanting to pick this game up based on how it looks so is there no rating system that protects the desires of said fans to be able to take pride in their purchases and know they're receiving a top-rated visual experience without it being dirtied by the expectation of people who don't appreciate the goes of presentation the product has set for itself? I don't know man... I just feel for people who are getting bummed out by these reviews and treated like what they want from the product is a mediocre gaming experience when what they want is in fact an excellent visual experience. If a game says its a platformer then we shouldn't attack it for not being a RTS and in the same right, if a game says its visually stunning then we shouldn't attack it for gameplay. People are even recommending not to purchase this game hence victimizing people who pre-ordered it. Its rather insensitive to come out and tell people not to buy something they've put money towards... AFTER THE FACT. No one likes to be judged for their purchasing decisions so this judgmental atmosphere at the very least seems rather anti-consumer. Aren't media supposed to be on the consumer's side? Finally on the idea that the product is too short... a good product should leave you wanting more. Like when people say you've overeaten when you feel bloated and you should stop eating when you feel you are about to get full.. in essence, you should be wanting more before you stop eating; this is the proper way. Overeating will make you obese and there's nothing good about that so why are we trying to promote over-gaming like its something healthy. The Order should be commended for not piling on the fat with unnecessary content, variety, game length and extra modes and collectable. It cares about the consumer's gaming health. Judged based on its visual fidelity and respect for consumer health, I'd give the order a 9.7 out of 10 but Metacritic won't carry my review on the "reviewer" section so I'll leave it here and I ask journalist to be kinder with their review. We need more products like the order. Dare I say it... I'd like to The Order another one of these!

Soooooo, if a game gets a lot of preorders the review should be high just so everyone that bought the game feels good about themselves?

This whole post is a complete disaster. Makes no sense. Reviewers are supposed to give their honest opinion. Almost every one of them has said , "GREAT GRAPHICS! but mediocre gameplay." Read the reviews! They actual words will inform your purchasing decision, instead of just focusing on the 2/5's or 60% score at the end of the review. If these scores make you disappointed in your preorder, then stop preordering.

However, I am one of those people that won't mind the mediocre gameplay simply because I really want to see what RaD did to push current gen graphics. That said, I'm also not buying this full price, I'll be waiting for a cheap deal and I'll know what I'm getting into with my purchase.

 

[Darkangel]

The question I'd ask is: Is The Evil Within a better game than The Order?

Polished Turd vs Uncut Diamond

 

[anexanhume]

That "First reveal" was 80% of the way through development. Aside from the black bars, none of those things were evident until the last year (and the last few months) when they were showing gameplay videos. This game has been in development for 5 years, there was no way for them to change direction by the time the negative reactions started hitting unless they wanted to slap on another few years of development time. At that point you may as well release what you have and not sink more money into trying to chase what people wanted 3 years ago when they were complaining.

A majority of that time was engine development and asset creation. Not really stuff that handcuffed their gameplay decisions. We know that gameplay elements can change quite a bit over a title's last year of development, and sometimes cutscene elements are cut but still present in the game file. They stuck with their vision, however flawed it was.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

I wouldn't put The Last of Us in a linear category. The story and the progression is linear, but the way you play it is not. But according to the question i think that the market is big enough for different kind of games. I don't want every game to be open world games, but again i want even the linear games to give me choices to tackle the situation in a different manner. Games like The Walking Dead is super scripted but they give me the illusion that it is me that makes the decision.

How so? It seemed entirely linear to me.

 

[bananafactory]

No, Sony will own the engine.

My mistake, I guess that makes sense if they funded it.

 

[Exile20]

Well, the reviews are in. That salvo is fired, and the game took a beating. The question now is, how will consumers respond? Do the masses care, or have they even noticed? GAF may well have a lot of cancelled pre-orders, but poor reviews didn't stop Destiny. Pachter may be in the clouds with five million sales, but I feel it'll be unwise to rule commercial success out at this stage. NPD will be interesting next month.

Destiny had the multiplayer to back it up.

Single player only games is a harder sell.

 

[meanspartan]

I struggle with that, because it very much seems like the hole they dug for themselves.

The Order: 1886 doesn't seem to be the victim of circumstance. It just seems like core game design that isn't up to par with the production quality of everything else. I don't even think it's a case of "Well, that's not technically feasible". The encounter design just seems poor. Enemy variety, AI, things like that. Those are things that are paramount in good game design. "How do I make this combat encounter interesting", "How do I make the enemies feel varied". If feels like these are discussions that RAD didn't take seriously enough, and are now suffering for it.

It's not "not quite right", like perhaps an Uncharted 3. It's poorly designed from a gameplay perspective where even glacing at the last 5 years of shooter games would have shown them that they were woefully off base.

Yes I agree with all of this actually.

My post wasn't trying to make excuses. They fucked up, and it is their fault. But it wasn't because they didn't try or didn't care, at least thats how it seems to me. Seems like they did work hard and give it a ton of love, but they made some crucial design mistakes in the core of the game.

I'm not saying the reviews are unjustified or anything like that. It seems to be a mediocre game by most accounts. Guess I just wanted to show a bit of empathy? I dunno.

In the off chance any RAD guys read this post, you'll get em next time guys, I truly believe that. One artistic misfire should not be the death of a studio, especially a studio behind some great PSP games.

 

[Korten]

Are you shitting me?
Every OT out there is free PR.

PR? What the fuck does being excited and happy have to do with giving companies PR?

All this just makes me wonder what the next punching bag will be. There's a lot of them lately.

Doesn't seem that way to me. Hype for games like Bloodborne seem to be continuing unabated.'

The OT for each game is basically positivity-central. Previews are almost always glowing, and you can't go through one impressions thread without tripping over a "Hype Train" post.

Before the Order OT, finding a positive thread on it was like finding a needle in a hay stack, and there were games before it too.

 

[joecanada]

OT complaining about lack of "professionalism" from reviewers.

I dunno, while I guess some of the mocking in tweets may cross the line a bit, I far FAR prefer that over just handing out a minimum of 8s for being a AAA game.

Except most of them do that already. I bought cod aw since it seemed a step in right direction. ... Based on impressions.
Mp is unplayable due to lag, hit detection.
sp boring as hell
In short played two days, now it's a coaster. I don't even have to look up reviews to know it probably scored 8 s

Edit - but if reviews are getting tougher in general I don't have a problem they just seem random

 

[Karak]

That's because you and I aren't forced to play all the bad ones on top of the good ones. I can see how reviewers can get burnt out. The Order may be one of the bad ones, I don't know, I haven't played it, yet. I was just making a general statement about how game reviewers handle shooters.

Uhm. Brother I am a reviewer and have been for 2 years and do play the good ones and the bad ones. But I get your drift in general.

 

[HMD]

How so? It seemed entirely linear to me.

TLOU was like a bunch of boxes stuck together with little holes that lead to the next box, if that made sense...

 

[nintendoman58]

I'm so looking forward to the Zero Punctuation review of this game.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

remember Asura's Wrath though? These games can be great and there should be a place for them... maybe it just shouldn't be where you need to sell millions at a 60$ price tag to make it profitable.

I think AW was just crazy and zany enough story-wise to be pardoned. Plus, I don't think unrealistic expectations were being placed on it.

Like w/ The Order, it's got the weight of trying to convince others current-gen is justified on it. AW came out when people were already more than satisfied with that gen and anticipating next-gen.

 

[antitrop]

Uhm. Brother I am a reviewer and have been for 2 years and do play the good ones and the bad ones. But I get your drift in general.

But are you a part of the inner circle? I'm referring specifically to mainstream game reviewers. My bad for not being clear.

I feel like mainstream game reviewers have different expectations from games than almost anyone else.