Support NeoGAF

[hesido]

but this whole thing is a car crash.

More like a "Digital Suicide".

Actually, I felt extremely bad for the guy at first when the guy mentioned his 3 kids and Jimmy went "Oh dear". That seemed like a very condescending and rude attitude, if you didn't know they were calling Jim chickenshit all day long and other childish things they did beforehand. And during the conversation, they used derogatory words for Jim several times. I don't know how he could keep his calm or not even retort when they did those.

 

[Zolbrod]

I don't know how he could keep his calm or not even retort when they did those.

Jim is used to much MUCH worse than that.
He's developed a tough skin over the years, and he knows how to keep his cool.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

I do think there are a few valid points made...albeit poorly.

1) If 'gamers' understood how much time and effort was put into making games, then maybe people might understand how hard it is to make games, especially if you're an indie game developer.

2) There is a big difference between making a YouTube video and making a game.

3) There is a big difference between insulting an entire company and a team consisting of three or so people.

4) There isn't anything wrong with using Unity assets especially if you're a starting indie developer.

5) jim should follow up with some of his claims or research a bit more into the topic more. Jim has made some pretty bad videos.

I think Robs harassment point is legitimate but he is directing it at the wrong person. When Jim Sterling makes his videos, they are critiques but not attacks. It's the fans (gamers) who love the hate and will harass the hell out of someone regardless of how the developer feels. I think it's interesting to hear how much harassment has effected him and his users on forums.

 

[TakeItSlowDude]

Right. There's no perfect solution, but the problem with what you're proposing instead means that a gamer has to spend money blindly -- that he/she probably can't get back, on something by a brand new, inexperienced developer.

In the donation/Patreon situation, at least people could get a taste of the unproven goods before they decide to permanently part with money.

For me, on a very low budget, losing a buck or two on a game that sucks still feels like a loss. I don't have the time or extra bucks to be someone's beta tester or QA coach, is how I might feel.

So let me play a game for free and then see if I feel like being a part of your climb to the top, new dev. Otherwise, I feel safer putting that buck towards something else.

The marketplace could have a forced demo window on all games. That is what XBLIG did, it had a 10 minute demos on all games. At the end of the demo a prompt would come up asking you to purchase if you wanted to continue. I do not see how a company like Silver Dollar Games could made it on donations. They made a bunch of 'menu' games on XBLIG, eventually they where able to capitalize on what they had and made the game One Finger Death Punch. Milkstone studios was another that made small games on XBLIG (of much better quality than SDG's first games) and eventually they were able to progress to making Ziggurat. Markets allow developers to bootstrap, patreon/donation models only work for a few established people. This ends up reducing the pool of developers to people who already have the resources, those who have connections/social media presence, or those who can work for free.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

All I would recommend to that guy (and the whole dev) is to push toward higher quality development and higher quality arguments. Pretty messy stuff, although he could say some good things to say if he really had worked out some logical arguments on paper.

His arguments were jokes and they were indeed sometimes hilarious, but he shouldn't have done this interview. I honestly hope he can pull back and up out from this messy interaction, and then work toward a new, quality product that actually can get him some positive feedback. Go dark; work; and work harder than before. :/

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I do think there are a few valid points made...albeit poorly.

Are they really valid points though? The guy's End Game was clearly:

1. argue why criticism as a medium essentially be stifled.

2. Trying as hard as he could to make Jim look bad. (corrupt, lazy, unskilled, malicious, uninformed, inciting harassment)


Just because someone correctly asserts the sky is blue in a debate, doesn't mean it actually in any way supports of validates their point.

 

[Zolbrod]

When Jim Sterling makes his videos, they are critiques but not attacks. It's the fans (gamers) who love the hate and will harass the hell out of someone regardless of how the developer feels. I think it's interesting to hear how much harassment has effected him and his users on forums.

This I totally agree with though.
Jim's videos are all well and good, but the "fans" going off and harassing the devs at every turn is just stupid.

 

[Xpike]

I do think there are a few valid points made...albeit poorly.

1) If 'gamers' understood how much time and effort was put into making games, then maybe people might understand how hard it is to make games, especially if you're an indie game developer.

2) There is a big difference between making a YouTube video and making a game.

3) There is a big difference between insulting an entire company and a team consisting of three or so people.

4) There isn't anything wrong with using Unity assets especially if you're a starting indie developer.

5) jim should follow up with some of his claims or research a bit more into the topic more. Jim has made some pretty bad videos.

I think Robs harassment point is legitimate but he is directing it at the wrong person. When Jim Sterling makes his videos, they are critiques but not attacks. It's the fans (gamers) who love the hate and will harass the hell out of someone regardless of how the developer feels. I think it's interesting to hear how much harassment has effected him and his users on forums.

hey i found digital homicide's account

 

[DrNeroCF]

I was going to post this exact thing. I feel awful for him. I mean all he's done is make a few crappy games, this doesn't make him a terrible person, but this whole thing is a car crash.

I just can't understand him at all. I mean, I'm way more critical of my own games than Jim was of Slaughtering Grounds, so if someone humorously tore into them, I'd probably just laugh at all the terrible things they found and laugh even more at the terrible things that they didn't find. Then again, I really love watching commentary on bad and buggy games.

Then again, I did start on Newgrounds, and was surprised that anyone cared about my work in the first place, and have a ton more barely started prototypes that I would never inflict on the public.

So the concept of throwing a fit because someone critiques your Babby's 1st Game because you've deemed it worthy of the commercial marketplace is just beyond baffling to me.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

So the concept of throwing a fit because someone critiques your Babby's 1st Game because you've deemed it worthy of the commercial marketplace is just beyond baffling to me.

Not that baffling from a guy that scoffs everytime he mentions the existance of "fair use".


The dude outright admitted that, if he had the funds, he'd try to sue the hell out of critics like Jim Sterling, didn't he?

 

[Steroyd]

I do think there are a few valid points made...albeit poorly.

1) If 'gamers' understood how much time and effort was put into making games, then maybe people might understand how hard it is to make games, especially if you're an indie game developer.

2) There is a big difference between making a YouTube video and making a game.

3) There is a big difference between insulting an entire company and a team consisting of three or so people.

4) There isn't anything wrong with using Unity assets especially if you're a starting indie developer.

5) jim should follow up with some of his claims or research a bit more into the topic more. Jim has made some pretty bad videos.

I think Robs harassment point is legitimate but he is directing it at the wrong person. When Jim Sterling makes his videos, they are critiques but not attacks. It's the fans (gamers) who love the hate and will harass the hell out of someone regardless of how the developer feels. I think it's interesting to hear how much harassment has effected him and his users on forums.

I don't think they're that valid a point being made here, or at least the arguments themselves has holes in them.

1) Appreciating the effort into a game being made means fuck all if the end product is something the consumer feels like they've wasted their money on, this is why consumers turn to reviews and lets plays to make a pre-determined judgement on a game before handing out their cash, this is why "leeches" are good.

2) This is where I think Digital Homocide's argument on this matter backfires spectacularly when he tries to ultimately say at its base that what Jim does and what he does are the exact same, Youtube video's come in three flavours,
1. You have what Jim does in setting a stage to debate about stuff and essentially talking over videos from other sources, 2. Animators creating their own content from scratch, 3. A mishmash between the two like what Angry Joe does.... a game developer should be either doing numbers 2 or 3, if you're doing exactly what Jim does, your fucking up somewhere and you will be on Jimquisition for it ironically.

3) Yes and no, granted because a dev is smaller you are going to be in contact with the creator more easily, both sizes of business are approached in the same manner from the media but the difference between the two boils down to one has media muscle and PR bodyguards and the other does not, small devs need to be smarter with how they handle social media to promote their stuff, Digital Homicide is an example of straight up suicide in this regard. Also Jim's only insulted the game and used DH as an example of how not to PR, the personal attacks have only come from DH's side which gave birth to Jim Fucking Sterling Son.

4)Jim already covered Unity being a force for good

5) For the most part he's spot on with his videos, only criticism I've had was when he didn't let the Shenmue video cook in the oven a little bit longer, even though I got the overall message he was trying to convey.

Also yeah, there's always dicks online, the sad thing is, it probably didn't just come from Jim's fanbase either, I remember Totalbiscuit and Angry Joe also covered the incident in their top ten worst games referencing Jims videos so there isn't one source you could pinpoint where the harassment can come from.

 

[TakeItSlowDude]

I do think there are a few valid points made...albeit poorly.

4) There isn't anything wrong with using Unity assets especially if you're a starting indie developer.

This is the primary point where the developer should of taken the time to better establish why using assets valid thing and demonstrated how Jim's claim of asset flipping is critical overreach. I see a lot of ignorance over the use of assets and what is actually required to integrate them into a game. Granted I have not used Unity, but I have purchased assets for use with IOS and XNA apps. It is often the case you can not use them as is, they often require a custom content pipeline to be built to process them before you can even make use of them. Sometime it requires editing them using 3rd party or one's own tools to fit your game. One should be smart by using the assets that work with your game, avoiding overused ones, and modifying them to differentiate/work with your game. As much as Jim says he is discerning between proper and improper uses of assets I do not think he has nuanced his argument well enough. Asset flipping is now a bad meme that I see pop up in comments on various game all over the net (dev of Putrefaction got accused of this in comments on a RPS article). Too bad Digital Homicide was too hot headed and emotional to make any decent counter arguments.

 

[DustyVonEric]

Yeah, this was a rough listen, as expected.

Jim kept it cool in the face of this guy's ignorance on issues, weird analogies, talking in circles, deflection of not just criticism but actual facts, paranoid insinuations ("You two aren't related?"), personal attacks / insults, and odd far-reaching comparisons and similarities between he and Jim.

Digital Homocide came out looking even worse after this imo. And not in a haha way, but in a sad, smh, he'll never get it kind of way.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Too bad Digital Homicide was too hot headed and emotional to make any decent counter arguments.

I'm pretty sure they couldn't make a decent counter argument even if they were calm and rational about it.

The substance of almost any argument DH made essentially boiled down to either "no u" or "u bad". I can't imagine them having anything of value to say about how to properly use assets.

I cite evidence A; The gun-sound argument.

 

[danthefan]

I just can't understand him at all. I mean, I'm way more critical of my own games than Jim was of Slaughtering Grounds, so if someone humorously tore into them, I'd probably just laugh at all the terrible things they found and laugh even more at the terrible things that they didn't find. Then again, I really love watching commentary on bad and buggy games.

Then again, I did start on Newgrounds, and was surprised that anyone cared about my work in the first place, and have a ton more barely started prototypes that I would never inflict on the public.

So the concept of throwing a fit because someone critiques your Babby's 1st Game because you've deemed it worthy of the commercial marketplace is just beyond baffling to me.

That's exactly why I feel bad for him. He simply cannot cope with the criticism that comes along with putting something you've made out there for public consumption, while you obviously can.

 

[hesido]

Jim is used to much MUCH worse than that.
He's developed a tough skin over the years, and he knows how to keep his cool.

Still, swearing on a forum or comment section is different from having the guy dish those during a conversation, kudos to Jim for that.

 

[neorej]

God, that guy from DH is obnoxious.

 

[RealityCheque]

LEECHES HAVE GOOD MEDICAL QUALITIES!

Oh god.

As does fire, it helps identify witches.

 

[RealityCheque]

Yeah, this was a rough listen, as expected.

Jim kept it cool in the face of this guy's ignorance on issues, weird analogies, talking in circles, deflection of not just criticism but actual facts, paranoid insinuations ("You two aren't related?"), personal attacks / insults, and odd far-reaching comparisons and similarities between he and Jim.

Digital Homocide came out looking even worse after this imo. And not in a haha way, but in a sad, smh, he'll never get it kind of way.

when he played back the old episode of Jim talking making a joke about creatures that would destroy things as though it was some kind of smoking gun of Jim's evil nature, well that was just embarrassing. This DH guy knows how to write code yes? Because from the coherence of his arguments and overall understanding of everything else in the world, I'm impressed. With those kinds of skills it seems like he shouldn't be able to tie his shoes.

 

[BobTheFork]

I think games DO understand what goes into making a game, which it why something that looks half-assed and pieced together with assets stands out.

If this is the best game they can possibly make ok, that's what it is but there is no A for effort when you are trying to sell that game for money.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

I don't know how he could keep his calm or not even retort when they did those.

Because Jim didn't have a dog in the fight. What has happened since this all began with Jim's first video covering their games? DH made a video insulting him up and down, and harasses him in Twitter to do this "interview." Jim can go in and practically stay silent the entire time because the DH guy was swinging emotionally and with no intention of making an actual argument. He just wanted to break Jim down, get a raise out of Jim.

Imagine the amount of shit a popular youtuber gets--look at Game Grumps or Super Best Friends videos--and what the DH guy said was barely a buzzing fly.

As does fire, it helps identify witches.

Leeches do have actual medical application, as do maggots.

 

[Ledhead]

I feel genuinely bad for this guy. What a horrible idea this was. He is obviously too invested in his bad games, and also comes off as having low self-esteem. He's unable to separate criticism from a personal attack, and does everything in his power to tear Jim down as opposed to addressing his criticisms.

I don't think he's a bad guy, just kind of lost it over this whole thing and is taking this way too far. His arguments are mostly nonsense and come off as emotion fueled rambling. Dude needs to step back, shut the hell up, and focus on making better games.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

But Jim is not a streamer, and this is not an interpersonal fued between two players in s game where one happens to be internet famous.

Digital Homicide make crappy cut and paste shit games, and Jim being a critic, not just on his own but with multiple outlets in the past did what all critics exsist for and pointed out the shit quality of their games to try and keep the consumer from wasting their money. If you have an issue with Jims style or that he put a lot of emphasis on DH out of a slew of "developers" doing the same thing, that is something you could legit criticize, and while I have no issue with it I see no problem if someone does. However the criticism is Jims reason for exsisting, same as Ebert was for movies, Rolling stone for music, etc.

The burden is not on Jim it's on DH to make a product that Jim cannot make look silly in a twenty minute video.

I have no clue what this issue has to do with anything in your post.

I'm saying I can empathize with how overwhelming somewhat organized groups of people on the internet attacking you can feel. Jim's viewers are targeting this guys game to buy it just to leave bad reviews on it, and whatever else that may have happened on the forums. That has to suck, no matter how his games really are.

I don't know what his development situation is, or if he's actually wanting to get better at it rather than rip people off (it actually sounds like he may be trying). Is he misleading people into buying his game, making it look better than it is? Is one of his games that Flight game Jim messed with that went nowhere and was a mess? Thankfully now, with steam refunds, it'll be better if people bought your game and knew full well what they were getting into. Also the fact that he was allowed to put his experiments on steam seem to be a problem with steam and not him, even if he was taking advantage of loopholes. Why not want your game on steam.

 

[RealityCheque]

Because Jim didn't have a dog in the fight. What has happened since this all began with Jim's first video covering their games? DH made a video insulting him up and down, and harasses him in Twitter to do this "interview." Jim can go in and practically stay silent the entire time because the DH guy was swinging emotionally and with no intention of making an actual argument. He just wanted to break Jim down, get a raise out of Jim.

Imagine the amount of shit a popular youtuber gets--look at Game Grumps or Super Best Friends videos--and what the DH guy said was barely a buzzing fly.



Leeches do have actual medical application, as do maggots.

I know. I was mocking him mostly because, taken in context with the rest of his meandering arguments, it makes him look insane.

 

[Fury451]

hey i found digital homicide's account

That post is way too subtle and coherently put together to be from them.

This was interesting, I'm glad that Jim was willing to participate. It's sad that the developers are so closed off and defensive and aggressive about everything. They've gotten so much publicity that if they were tackling with the criticism and work on improving their talents, if that's possible, they might be able to have a decent audience for future endeavors. But their attitude pretty much sealed off any discussion from the get-go.

 

[ChanMan]

I'm done after hearing that leech part...ugh..

 

[WalTech]

This is incredibly difficult to listen to. I think I got about half way through it and threw in the towel. I think it's so difficult because we've all met someone just like this; blameless, free of guilt, and completely unable and unwilling to take honest criticism. Nothing is this guy's fault, and if you don't like his game, it's because he's new, the sun was in his eyes, his chair isn't fully working properly, and he was missing an "L" key when he made these games. Also you were probably playing it wrong.

I did have a fun idea while listening to it, though. I think it would be quite fun to buy a Unity asset pack and use it to make a game that's completely different than what it was intended for. Like, buy Unit Z assets and rework them as little as possible to make a 3d isometric farming simulator game. Or take a tower defense game and turn it into an endless runner or something like that. Sounds like fun to me, so at least I got something out of it...

 

[plasmawave]

To be honest, they both act childishly here.

 

[DrGonzo615]

Listened to the whole thing yesterday.

I dont think either party came out of this looking good. The entire "interview" is pretty cringe worthy...and I generally like Jim Sterlings stuff.

 

[Ophelion]

That value of code argument really annoys me in particular. It's like expecting literary critics to pat you on the back for being able to spell. It's the invisible mechanics by which the artist(s) craft their creations. If you cut and paste together a story made of tropes and clichés, it doesn't matter how immaculate your damn grammar is, you're still a hack and it would be completely reasonable for a critic to say so.

Dudes are hacks. Jim told the public so. They made it personal and Jim did what he does best (even if that isn't always very nice.) Indie is not a synonym for amateur and if they're going to put a product in an ostensibly professional space, the work is going to be held up to big-boy standards. If you then respond to that by acting like a child, you get fucking spanked. Someday, they'll learn their lesson or quit. Either way, we'll all be better off for it.

 

[Brashnir]

That value of code argument really annoys me in particular. It's like expecting literary critics to pat you on the back for being able to spell. It's the invisible mechanics by which the artist(s) craft their creations. If you cut and paste together a story made of tropes and clichés, it doesn't matter how immaculate your damn grammar is, you're still a hack and it would be completely reasonable for a critic to say so.

Dudes are hacks. Jim told the public so. They made it personal and Jim did what he does best (even if that isn't always very nice.) Indie is not a synonym for amateur and if they're going to put a product in an ostensibly professional space, the work is going to be held up to big-boy standards. If you then respond to that by acting like a child, you get fucking spanked. Someday, they'll learn their lesson or quit. Either way, we'll all be better off for it.

This guy's work is the gaming equivalent of the Spell Check Poem.

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

Except for the part where one of them is aware that they're making a joke.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

I think games DO understand what goes into making a game

Well...

That value of code argument really annoys me in particular. It's like expecting literary critics to pat you on the back for being able to spell.

...I really think they don't.

 

[BobTheFork]

Well...



...I really think they don't.

Well, point taken. I'm not a fan of the argument that if people haven't tried to make a game them self, they lack some critical piece of information and thus can't criticize this game for being shit.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Well, point taken. I'm not a fan of the argument that if people haven't tried to make a game them self, they lack some critical piece of information and thus can't criticize this game for being shit.

No medium should be immune to criticism from people who haven't worked in that medium themselves, but equating coding a game from scratch using store bought assets as being the same thing as downloading a premade game template asset and releasing it as is is hugely unfair.

 

[BobTheFork]

No medium should be immune to criticism from people who haven't worked in that medium themselves, but equating coding a game from scratch using store bought assets as being the same thing as downloading a premade game template asset and releasing it as is is hugely unfair.

Probably just as unfair as comparing a game made with pre-made assets to one that really IS made from scratch. It's a shortcut but not one that invalidates the work they did.

What isn't fair is the assumption that the state of the game equates to some kind of pure scam and that the game was made purposefully bad and cheap and fast in the hopes that they could score lots of money before anyone called them out.

But they have done more damage to themselves than Jim or anyone else did. Jim did a decent job of pointing out other cases of this kind of game where the devs responded with 'ok, we get it. We are working to make it better and maybe wait until we have.' The ability to release a game in this state shouldn't be completely exclusive with the idea that a game should reach some standards before being sold.

Again, I'll agree that the initial reaction created that this was some kind of scam isn't warranted, but then again neither is a game purchase.

 

[Servbot24]

To be honest, they both act childishly here.

Not really. Jim's bit where he was reading different versions of leech was really stupid and irritating, but that aside, there's only a certain level of professionalism you can maintain if you're being required to interact with someone like this.

 

[ImaLemming]

Did anyone else notice the DH guy said "People have told me 'Hey, you need to fix this, this, and this' and I've fixed those things!", when he told people who were getting motion sickness from Temper Tantrum to go fuck themselves?

 

[xevis]

Every time one of these videos comes up I find myself struggling to understand why a mainstream and well-known critic is spending so much time feuding with a small-time game developer. As far as opinion pieces go, there's just not that much interesting to say about the issue. There are no broad implications for the industry or even for the broader Steam community. On the other hand, from a journalistic perspective (which Jim isn't taking anyway), the fact that some guy on the Internet is making bad games and ripping off other people's art assets is hardly news.

Why all the hubub?

 

[pantsonhead]

Ok, at this point I genuinely think this person has something very seriously wrong with them. The DH fellow I mean. It stopped being funny and went right into sad.

 

[JeffG]

Every time one of these videos comes up I find myself struggling to understand why a mainstream and well-known critic is spending so much time feuding with a small-time game developer.


Why all the hubub?

People love train wrecks.

 

[Matty77]

Thankfully now, with steam refunds, it'll be better if people bought your game and knew full well what they were getting into. Also the fact that he was allowed to put his experiments on steam seem to be a problem with steam and not him, even if he was taking advantage of loopholes. Why not want your game on steam.

This right here is in my mind the larger issue that needs more criticism from those with a voice. Greenlight is badly curated and early access is a joke. I do think it is more beneficial to talk about the system as a whole versus one "indie developer" taking advantage of it.

I just don't see him at fault for harassment. If we blame him for what his fans do that opens up a whole can of worms involving what gamers have defended in the media influence vs. personal choice argument. Not only has Jim never "organized" harassment but I don't believe without direct incitement it his fault, otherwise we might as well start banning doom and Marilyn Manson for school shootings.

 

[BY2K]

It's not over.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

jesus christ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1TXhVfhP6w

 

[neshcom]

jesus christ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1TXhVfhP6w

What an exceptional show of both good taste and timeliness from videogame developers Digital Homocide. Yes, Digital Homocide were certainly the victors AKA "pimps" of that interview.

 

[Dryk]

They should've outsourced it to GAF, they would've been able to animate the head

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

jesus christ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1TXhVfhP6w

These people are absolutely insane. The fact they think they made any good points in the "interview" and now this video, I just don't even...

 

[BY2K]

Is it just one guy or multiple?

 

[Disgraced]

I don't think DH knows what GAF is.

Where and who is this "community," anyway? I don't think anyone really gives a shit, kind of like the representation in the video. But that can't be intentional. That'd be too self-aware.

Is it just one guy or multiple?

Multiple, I'm pretty sure. There's a boss man, though. He's the one doing the debating and the "PR(?)" I assume.

 

[Alienous]

DH need to focus on making better games.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Is it just one guy or multiple?

There were two of them in the interview. One talking and one guy who apparently had a book of "facts" they were hoping to use to burn Jim.