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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U DLC |OT2| Lucas comes out of Nowhere!

XpopcornX

Banned
How far did you get in the tourney?

While Falcon experience should be important, you need to also need to be prepared against every character really. As good as one might be, there's also tons of great opponents who have constant practice against other top players by regularity attending tourneys, if this is your first, it's hard to be oh the same level because you're used to playing against weaker opponents.

I was in the final round against the Falcon. To be honest though I wasn't worried about anybody else there. I live in a small town so there wernt a ton of super good players and I don't find myself getting intimidated against anyone besides Falcon mains.

Bowser vs Falcon is a tough matchup, but it's doable. It gets more difficult the safer the Falcon plays. There's two ways a safe Falcon will mess up Bowser, baiting moves and pushing Bowser to the ledge with aerial threats. Because Falcon has more mobility and that ridiculous dash grab, he can dash towards you and back off right before getting in range to bait a reaction from Bowser. Problem is, Falcon can punish almost any of Bowser's moves with a real dash grab. If he can get you to throw out a ftilt, dtilt, utilt, fortress... anything besides jabs, he can get in and punish.

So first off you'll have to figure out what he wants. Is he dancing out of range until you commit to something, whether in the air or on the ground? How does he approach, is it the same every time? Does he mix up dash attack and dash grab, or does he always run in and dash grab? If he never uses dash attack, then you know you can time a spot dodge into something fast (fortress, klaw) to stuff that approach. If you want to get ahead of it, you can throw out some jabs as long as your timing is good enough (consider it a 50/50 if you're just throwing jabs out). You can also use a short hop aerial fair/bair while playing the spacing game against a grounded falcon, as long as you're autocanceling aerials, Falcon has to have pretty good timing to get between a fair to jabs or bair to ftilt.

The reality against great Falcons is, Falcon's jump is his best spacing/threat tool. Falcon jumps high and moves fast enough in the air to use his air jump to get back safely, and his aerials come out really fast compared to Bowser. It's not a great idea to challenge him in the air, generally. Of course, bair will lead to an acceptable trade with just about anything... but it's probably better to see the pattern and catch him as he tries to land - utilt for coverage, run past and pivot grab or usmash when confident.

Most of all, this match really depends on Bowser confidently going offstage for the kill. Falcon's recovery is terrible and predictable. If he is preparing to recover from below you absolutely must run off the stage into a fair. One fair will gimp Falcon and end his stock at almost any percentage offstage. If he manages to grab you with his up b, prepare yourself to tech off the stage, but it doesn't happen that often. Fair has huge coverage and usually beats Falcon's up b. Falcon can live to annoying percentages because of his weight. I've klawed Falcons after 100% many times to my disappointment. He's much easier to kill horizontally than vertically.

That's enough babble about Captain Falcon. Of course, theory doesn't always translate nicely into gameplay. But Falcon is a predictable character outside of two fast moves - dash grab and raptor boost. Figure out the player's dash grab tendencies and the match becomes doable. Until he spikes you during recovery, anyway.

I don't think Duck Hunt would be a good matchup. Falcon is heavy, and DH doesn't have a consistent enough wall to stop Falcon from running through and wrecking it.

Also go here for DI'ing against him: http://smashboards.com/guides/how-to-di-all-throws-in-smash-4.341/

I like really appreciate this, he was only doing a dash grab the entire time but i was nervous so I didnt really think of dodging. I figured he would change it up so I only ended up punishing with whirling fortress like 3 times out of the 10 grabs. Not seeing his grabs coming was the worst memory of the entire match for me especially since I think he did five in a row.

You are saying its worth doing fair when he tries to recover though? I tried that and I got caught in his recovery and teched off of battlefield unable to recover. Was I just unlucky? I was afraid to even try it again.

The last thing I want to ask is what if he ledge guards with up tilt? Bowser's recovery seems really awkward occasionally for ledge grabbing so should I just try to get back on the stage from above? I tried using fire to get him out of the way but he used a forward smash and got me anyway.

Overall though he was really only just waiting for me to make a dumb move and punish with dash grab. Now that I know that he wont want to do anything out of the ordinary I know exactly how to play the match.
 

Boney

Banned
There's a lot of up b's that don't grab the ledge when fascina backwards, how ever, Bowser is the only characters that cant b reverse his up b, so he's screwed if he's facing backwards.

2 things, first, if you're recovering from above bowser bomb to the ledge and it'll autosnap. It's super safe and one of the best landing options for bowser. Second, if you have time and no pressure you can Side b to change the direction you're facing while recovering, so you can auto snap the ledge.
 

XpopcornX

Banned
There's a lot of up b's that don't grab the ledge when fascina backwards, how ever, Bowser is the only characters that cant b reverse his up b, so he's screwed if he's facing backwards.

2 things, first, if you're recovering from above bowser bomb to the ledge and it'll autosnap. It's super safe and one of the best landing options for bowser. Second, if you have time and no pressure you can Side b to change the direction you're facing while recovering, so you can auto snap the ledge.

Oh my god how have I never thought of this. Thank you so much! That fixes the up tilt falcon ledge guard.
 
There's a lot of up b's that don't grab the ledge when fascina backwards, how ever, Bowser is the only characters that cant b reverse his up b, so he's screwed if he's facing backwards.

2 things, first, if you're recovering from above bowser bomb to the ledge and it'll autosnap. It's super safe and one of the best landing options for bowser. Second, if you have time and no pressure you can Side b to change the direction you're facing while recovering, so you can auto snap the ledge.
I actually had a Falcon Fsmash me in Grand Finals during my Bowser Bomb descent. I wasn't even mad, that took a ton of skill.
 
Looks like the first local I will be attending just got a $50 pot bonus, so right now it is sitting at $150, I think. Very likely it will be in the $200-$250 range by the day of the tournament. I should stop playing Falco and Falcon and start playing Yoshi again so I have a chance to get some money.
 

JulianImp

Member
@Karst: So you got to grand finals as Bowser? That sure sounds impressing, congrats!

Looks like the first local I will be attending just got a $50 pot bonus, so right now it is sitting at $150, I think. Very likely it will be in the $200-$250 range by the day of the tournament. I should stop playing Falco and Falcon and start playing Yoshi again so I have a chance to get some money.

Heh. And the tourney I'm going to attend asks for a AR$50 entry fee and will only pay out AR$600 for first and AR$150 for second place, regardless of how many people they end up getting and with an upper limit of 64 players. I'm not really feeling the fixed pot nor the 4/5, 1/5 payout structure, but I guess I'm just too used to fairer payouts from MtG.

I mean, even if I happened to be one of the better players, the fact that I'm kind of rusty and not using a high tier character prevents me from getting my expectations up.
 
Heh. And the tourney I'm going to attend asks for a AR$50 entry fee and will only pay out AR$600 for first and AR$150 for second place, regardless of how many people they end up getting and with an upper limit of 64 players. I'm not really feeling the fixed pot nor the 4/5, 1/5 payout structure, but I guess I'm just too used to fairer payouts from MtG.

I mean, even if I happened to be one of the better players, the fact that I'm kind of rusty and not using a high tier character prevents me from getting my expectations up.

Well, the benefit to that structure is it is cheaper for each individual player to enter. Players that know they won't likely win anything will still enter because losing US$5 is worth it for the tournament experience and practice. The TO/Venue also get their cut if more than 15 players enter, although their cut is rather big one you get to 30+ players.

The payout of the local I am going to is this:

1-64 players
1st - 60%
2nd - 30%
3rd - 10%

64-128 players
1st - 55%
2nd - 25%
3rd - 15%
4th - 5%

There is no way there will be 64+ players, so the first method will be used. That means at the current pot level, 3rd place will break even because the venue fee is $10 and the entry fee is $5.
 

Cronox

Banned
I like really appreciate this, he was only doing a dash grab the entire time but i was nervous so I didnt really think of dodging. I figured he would change it up so I only ended up punishing with whirling fortress like 3 times out of the 10 grabs. Not seeing his grabs coming was the worst memory of the entire match for me especially since I think he did five in a row.

You are saying its worth doing fair when he tries to recover though? I tried that and I got caught in his recovery and teched off of battlefield unable to recover. Was I just unlucky? I was afraid to even try it again.

The last thing I want to ask is what if he ledge guards with up tilt? Bowser's recovery seems really awkward occasionally for ledge grabbing so should I just try to get back on the stage from above? I tried using fire to get him out of the way but he used a forward smash and got me anyway.

Overall though he was really only just waiting for me to make a dumb move and punish with dash grab. Now that I know that he wont want to do anything out of the ordinary I know exactly how to play the match.

I've been overwhelmed by Falcon's dash grab before too. The thing is, Falcon only has two good approaches, dash grab and his bair, so a good Falcon will abuse the dash grab against a slower opponent like Bowser all day.

With runoff fair, if he gets you with the up b all that means is you didn't go offstage fast enough. Falcon's up b will only hit you if he's right below you. It's harder to land than you'd think. You want him to be in front of you when fair hits, not below you. When you run offstage you're going towards him, he's going towards the stage... you can runoff into fair earlier than you think. If he doesn't catch you with the up b there's literally nothing he can do. If he wastes an aerial on you, worst case scenario you both die, more likely just he does. If he air dodges he will die. Runoff fair is the solution if he's recovering low. If he recovers high I recommend bair or catching him as he lands with any number of things.

If Bowser bombing to the ledge isn't something you do, you should practice it. Notice how Bowser keeps a little forward momentum as Bowser bomb starts. Falcon can jump high pretty fast, so if you start the bomb too close to the stage an on-point Falcon can jump and uair you out of the bomb startup. After startup you're generally pretty safe.

Are you jump canceling fortress out of shield?

Yeah that last part is exactly what Falcon does well. Falcon and other fast characters like Sonic can just wait for you to throw out an unsafe move and punish with their speedy attacks. Reads will be necessary against the player's tendencies because Falcon will win the match if you can't predict when his real approach is coming. I've gotten into doing a bit of slow "dash dancing" lately, for the same purposes Falcon does this against his opponents. There was a recent video that gave a method for doing a safer version of this that I came across lately. I haven't practiced it to see how well it works with Bowser, but given his dash startup takes him an alright distance I think this could be a good thing to add to the repertoire. Bait and punish, eh.

Oh my god how have I never thought of this. Thank you so much! That fixes the up tilt falcon ledge guard.

I didn't remember if Falcon's back throw put Bowser backwards, but yeah if it does you'll want to turn around. The problem is, turning around can make your recovery even more predictable, which means you're easier to spike. If he's not going for spikes and just standing waiting to utilt then it's a no-brainer.
 

Oidisco

Member
I've been trying out Peach for a while now and I'm not sure if she's for me. I don't think I do well with characters that use item projectiles like Link's bombs.

I'll just focus on Mario for now, might go back to Peach another time.
 

XpopcornX

Banned
I've been overwhelmed by Falcon's dash grab before too. The thing is, Falcon only has two good approaches, dash grab and his bair, so a good Falcon will abuse the dash grab against a slower opponent like Bowser all day.

With runoff fair, if he gets you with the up b all that means is you didn't go offstage fast enough. Falcon's up b will only hit you if he's right below you. It's harder to land than you'd think. You want him to be in front of you when fair hits, not below you. When you run offstage you're going towards him, he's going towards the stage... you can runoff into fair earlier than you think. If he doesn't catch you with the up b there's literally nothing he can do. If he wastes an aerial on you, worst case scenario you both die, more likely just he does. If he air dodges he will die. Runoff fair is the solution if he's recovering low. If he recovers high I recommend bair or catching him as he lands with any number of things.

If Bowser bombing to the ledge isn't something you do, you should practice it. Notice how Bowser keeps a little forward momentum as Bowser bomb starts. Falcon can jump high pretty fast, so if you start the bomb too close to the stage an on-point Falcon can jump and uair you out of the bomb startup. After startup you're generally pretty safe.

Are you jump canceling fortress out of shield?

Yeah that last part is exactly what Falcon does well. Falcon and other fast characters like Sonic can just wait for you to throw out an unsafe move and punish with their speedy attacks. Reads will be necessary against the player's tendencies because Falcon will win the match if you can't predict when his real approach is coming. I've gotten into doing a bit of slow "dash dancing" lately, for the same purposes Falcon does this against his opponents. There was a recent video that gave a method for doing a safer version of this that I came across lately. I haven't practiced it to see how well it works with Bowser, but given his dash startup takes him an alright distance I think this could be a good thing to add to the repertoire. Bait and punish, eh.



I didn't remember if Falcon's back throw put Bowser backwards, but yeah if it does you'll want to turn around. The problem is, turning around can make your recovery even more predictable, which means you're easier to spike. If he's not going for spikes and just standing waiting to utilt then it's a no-brainer.

Alright thanks so much for all of this, I really appreciate it!
 
@Karst: So you got to grand finals as Bowser? That sure sounds impressing, congrats!



Heh. And the tourney I'm going to attend asks for a AR$50 entry fee and will only pay out AR$600 for first and AR$150 for second place, regardless of how many people they end up getting and with an upper limit of 64 players. I'm not really feeling the fixed pot nor the 4/5, 1/5 payout structure, but I guess I'm just too used to fairer payouts from MtG.

I mean, even if I happened to be one of the better players, the fact that I'm kind of rusty and not using a high tier character prevents me from getting my expectations up.
Way back in January or something. I haven't been competing because tiers are becoming more pronounced, and no one I play is good. No point in throwing money in a fire pit. If any of my characters get to high tier, I'll start competing seriously for all the free money at locals.

How does bowser's flamethrower affect falcon's recovery?

Charizard's completely fucks him up
Not as effective, but still worth doing. Charizard's fire is way better than Bowser's in every way. Better hitstun, better hitbox, more maneuverable due to multijumps, and recharges faster. Now Charizard has the better grabs, armor, and safe approach options.

Why play Bowser? I guess he has Fortress still...
 

Cronox

Banned
How does bowser's flamethrower affect falcon's recovery?

Charizard's completely fucks him up

Bowser can definitely get some damage in, but it's basically a trade. In my experience, to hit below the ledge Bowser has put himself too far over the ledge. While Falcon will get hit by the flames and have to up b again and again (best case he gets flustered and doesn't up b again fast enough after getting hit), the sequence ends with Bowser getting hit with Falcon's up b. Does this not happen to Charizard too? Charizard's flamethrower seems to have more active frames and is a little lower to the ground, which maybe helps.

Runoff fair solves the problem for good.
 

Cronox

Banned
Not as effective, but still worth doing. Charizard's fire is way better than Bowser's in every way. Better hitstun, better hitbox, more maneuverable due to multijumps, and recharges faster. Now Charizard has the better grabs, armor, and safe approach options.

Why play Bowser? I guess he has Fortress still...

Since I'm essay writing lately, I suppose I'll continue the trend for now.

I tried playing Charizard for a little bit a week ago. It's possible that his tools are superior, but in the end I went back to Bowser. The biggest problem with non-customs Charizard is his recovery. Spending 5% to use his side b back to the ledge, or taking 10% to hit someone with it, and getting hit during the super-armor of rock smash really adds up. I thought his up b might be the better out of shield option since it can kill, but the reality of it is about the same as fortressing in terms of damage/knockback unless your opponent happens to come in at an optimum angle. And of course it won't hit behind him. Rock smash is great when you get that sweet 30% off it, but more often it becomes a simple trade, with Charizard the victor by only a few %.

Charizard seems to have even less aerial movement than Bowser, and that's a real problem when his air jumps don't really gain him any height and he only has 2 before having to use his up b from below the stage. He's really screwed offstage in a way Bowser isn't, linear recovery or not. Bowser can be hit after using his second jump and still make it back to the stage. Charizard cannot unless he's horizontally aligned with the ledge to flare blitz.

Bowser has the better normals where it counts - the better ftilt, dtilt, utilt, and bair (thank the spaghetti monster Bowser doesn't have to deal with sweet spots). Jabs are debatable, Charizard seems to have more priority, Bowser's have more range and are more spammable. Bowser's usmash is better and is the most important of the smashes. Flame breath has more range, which gets a clean 5-8% if an opponent (not realizing the range) doesn't shield it at max range. Bowser bomb is at least one landing option and doesn't cost % or trade.

He has better throws and combos though I think Bowser has the better kill throws off the side. He has a spike with dair. Those are big to have, I'll admit.

For me the negatives outweigh the positives. Basically his recovery sucks and having to spend % to use his tools also sucks. 1.1.0 Customs Charizard with dragon rush and possibly rock hurl might get me to switch if there was still a customs meta. Seems there isn't though. If there's a heavy I like besides Bowser it's Ike, his side b and down b are basically what I would prefer Charizard had. Minus the charging on side b.
 

Boney

Banned
I think you have a pretty bad analysis of Charizard Cronox, I guess lack of experience.

Charizard has a pretty good recovery actually. Yes he has a lot less air speed than bowser but he gains speed when he air jumps. Up b can be angled very well, and actually has pretty decent horizontal reach. Has super armor and you don't have to worry about being backwards. Side b can save you in cases where you would be dead and it's always a very dangerous proposition against opponents trying to edgeguard. It's an above average recovery against bowser's bottom of the barrel one.

Up b kills. And it kills early, little bit of rage and you're killing at 80%. It's not as simple as fortress because you have to choose a direction and with cross ups you can get punished for it but it's still super scary especially considering it has super armor and you can do it before they land as they hit you. It can also be used to catch air dodges.

Rock smash gives you a good landing option. And trading % will always be favour able for zard because of his weight and kill options. It's a pretty decent move that you can't abuse but allows you to mix things up and trick opponents.

Charizard's jab is top tier. 12%, fast and and you can keep on the offensive with it. It also kills at very high % and can be cancelled into up b. New ftilt has a very good sweetspot and range and very good knockback. Dtilt doesn't have the whiffing box thanks to the wind box and is fast, very low recovery and can kill by the ledge. Sure it's not as powerful as bowser's but it's a lot safer. And while bowser's up tilt has fantastic angle, zard's wings are a disjoint, comes out really fast, very good kill power and can even combo off itself in low percents.

His up smash is super fast and relatively safe while also being a disjoint. Down smash is kinda fast and covers a good angle and has much better knockback than bowser's and his fsmash is not as unsafe as bowser while still having the power.

Zard has great throws although whiffing a running grab is super punishable. In the end they both have the same weakness against zoness and fast characters but Zard is overall a much better equipped characters all round
 
GGs. Having mained Sonic must have given me some good MU experience, because I didn't expect to handle him very well with WFT.
GGs. Yeah, I've been having a lot of trouble lately with Sonic against projectile characters besides Sheik that I usually just go Meta Knight on them. Sonic probably wins the matchup, but I need to work on it more.
 

Cronox

Banned
I think you have a pretty bad analysis of Charizard Cronox, I guess lack of experience.

Charizard has a pretty good recovery actually. Yes he has a lot less air speed than bowser but he gains speed when he air jumps. Up b can be angled very well, and actually has pretty decent horizontal reach. Has super armor and you don't have to worry about being backwards. Side b can save you in cases where you would be dead and it's always a very dangerous proposition against opponents trying to edgeguard. It's an above average recovery against bowser's bottom of the barrel one.

Up b kills. And it kills early, little bit of rage and you're killing at 80%. It's not as simple as fortress because you have to choose a direction and with cross ups you can get punished for it but it's still super scary especially considering it has super armor and you can do it before they land as they hit you. It can also be used to catch air dodges.

Rock smash gives you a good landing option. And trading % will always be favour able for zard because of his weight and kill options. It's a pretty decent move that you can't abuse but allows you to mix things up and trick opponents.

Charizard's jab is top tier. 12%, fast and and you can keep on the offensive with it. It also kills at very high % and can be cancelled into up b. New ftilt has a very good sweetspot and range and very good knockback. Dtilt doesn't have the whiffing box thanks to the wind box and is fast, very low recovery and can kill by the ledge. Sure it's not as powerful as bowser's but it's a lot safer. And while bowser's up tilt has fantastic angle, zard's wings are a disjoint, comes out really fast, very good kill power and can even combo off itself in low percents.

His up smash is super fast and relatively safe while also being a disjoint. Down smash is kinda fast and covers a good angle and has much better knockback than bowser's and his fsmash is not as unsafe as bowser while still having the power.

Zard has great throws although whiffing a running grab is super punishable. In the end they both have the same weakness against zoness and fast characters but Zard is overall a much better equipped characters all round

I haven't played Charizard nearly as much as you of course. But we have some disagreements that will be hard to see through given our biases. Charizard's recovery may be harder to stop than air fortress once an option has been chosen (flare blitz, up b), but Bowser jumps much higher with his air jump and gets about as much height as Charizard's up b with fortress while having good horizontal speed. As Bowser I can dodge through opponents on my way back as long as they don't have multihit moves before using fortress. I have trouble envisioning a scenario where Bowser doesn't recover and Charizard does. If you use flare blitz as a shortcut to the ledge every time you're off you're doing the opponent's job for them.

Up b kills, but every time I've done it out of shield it's hit with everything but the last higher knockback hit. Maybe my timing's wrong. Maybe they can't be inside Charizard during startup or something. I don't know.

On a character vs character basis:

Rock smash has it's uses yes. Char's jab is great, I like that Bowser's is a little more spammable, that's all. Bowser's ftilt is better. Bowser's dtilt is a kill move, has two hits and longer duration. It's situational but one of the primary ways I get kills. Not comparable to Charizard's. I like Bowser's more. Bowser's usmash is invincible, has a second ground hit afterwards, and kills when sweetspotted at around 80% on most characters. Bowser's utilt gets me a lot of mileage and "create-a-combos," but I'm sure Char's utilt has it's uses too. I didn't really find a niche for it. Char's dsmash is better, that's a gimme, fsmash is probably better since Char pulls back before going forward. But with heavies an fsmash is rare enough that I don't give it much weight towards how good the character is. Generally, if you pulled of an fsmash with Char, you could have done the same as Ganondorf or Bowser. Not Ike though, his fsmash is slow as shit.

Char's throws and throw combos are obviously great and I wish Bowser had his dthrow. But Bowser has a huge disjoint on his pivot grab that is not to be underestimated. I was a little disappointed to find Charizard's pivot to be nothing special in comparison.

I picked up Charizard particularly because I thought he might do better against projectile characters. I'm still not sure if this is the case, honestly. You'd think flare blitz would help, but it's such a heavy percent trade that it doesn't really change things until high percents.

This post was supposed to be a "I'll respond to this later" but now I messed it all up. Charizard is maybe the better character based on his throw combo, but I dislike trades that aren't me bair'ing someone off the side of the stage, and Charizard has too many of them. I don't pretend to completely know what I'm talking about with Charizard, but I don't think Charizard is significantly better. Better at some things, worse at others. Luckily for me, there's no way to prove this claim wrong and I'll rest my case
and try to eat my dinner quickly :(
 
I haven't played Charizard nearly as much as you of course. But we have some disagreements that will be hard to see through given our biases. Charizard's recovery may be harder to stop than air fortress once an option has been chosen (flare blitz, up b), but Bowser jumps much higher with his air jump and gets about as much height as Charizard's up b with fortress while having good horizontal speed. As Bowser I can dodge through opponents on my way back as long as they don't have multihit moves before using fortress. I have trouble envisioning a scenario where Bowser doesn't recover and Charizard does. If you use flare blitz as a shortcut to the ledge every time you're off you're doing the opponent's job for them.
It's 5%. It's meaningless for a guaranteed recovery.

Fortress has better range, but Bowser is still easy to gimp. If he gets hit at all while recovering, it's over for him. You can keep batting Fortress away until he dies. Fly has super armor - Charizard is very hard to gimp. He trades slightly less recovery distance in favor of the recovery move being safer. It's a fair trade.

Up b kills, but every time I've done it out of shield it's hit with everything but the last higher knockback hit. Maybe my timing's wrong. Maybe they can't be inside Charizard during startup or something. I don't know.
It's just you. ;-)

On a character vs character basis:

Rock smash has it's uses yes. Char's jab is great, I like that Bowser's is a little more spammable, that's all. Bowser's ftilt is better. Bowser's dtilt is a kill move, has two hits and longer duration. It's situational but one of the primary ways I get kills. Not comparable to Charizard's. I like Bowser's more. Bowser's usmash is invincible, has a second ground hit afterwards, and kills when sweetspotted at around 80% on most characters. Bowser's utilt gets me a lot of mileage and "create-a-combos," but I'm sure Char's utilt has it's uses too. I didn't really find a niche for it. Char's dsmash is better, that's a gimme, fsmash is probably better since Char pulls back before going forward. But with heavies an fsmash is rare enough that I don't give it much weight towards how good the character is. Generally, if you pulled of an fsmash with Char, you could have done the same as Ganondorf or Bowser. Not Ike though, his fsmash is slow as shit.
I don't see much promise in nitpicking individual moves. Look at the neutral as a whole. For example, Bowser's Dtilt is way better at killing than Charizard's, but Charizard's Dsmash kills very early, has amazing range, and comes out quickly. Bowser's Dsmash is terrible. Look at the overall capacity to control the neutral, do damage, and kill, and I think Charizard comes out slightly over Bowser on all three accounts.
 

Boney

Banned
I mean they're only comparable up yo certain point but as many similarities there's twice the differences. They play very differently but overall Charizard is much stronger, especially because of the buffs
 
I generally agree with Boney on this.


Better movement how?

Charizard has better run speed than Bowser:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Charizard
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser

With triple jumps, he also has better mobility options.

Also, Charizard's grabs all have like...10 fewer recovery frames.

Bowser has noticeably better air speed and Charizard doesn't have a very good reverse back air. Bowser has one average jump, Charizard has two sub-par jumps.

So I'll take Charizard with Bowser's air speed and a double jump instead of two crummy jumps.
 
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