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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works

you reminded me how disappointed I was by SW interpretation of balance, that's not how I'd do it, not like this.
Someone being able to balance on the verge of dark-light side all the time and use both is in balance and can bring balance to the word, would be my interpretation and that's even harder than the light side, because it complex and includes playing with the Force on both sides, being perfectly in balance with oneself and universe, well maybe not perfectly but close to it.

Yeah. Anakin was supposed to do that-Balance both the Light and the Dark, but he went towards the dark. Instead the Prequels presented alot of concepts that were muddy in execution, and it kinda fumbled on it.

I talked about this before in another thread, but I believe the ultimate power was being able to balance both the Light and the Dark, something that hasn't been shown in the movies. So when I say I want to see Rey go dark side, it's not because she's a female like some users grossly assumed, but because that would be an interesting concept for Star Wars that hasn't been explored yet.

What?

One of my favorite things about the way Yoda was handled in the prequels is that you can see a tremendous outpouring of sorrow and compassion from him for Anakin in Episode II, as he senses his pain from afar.

In Episode III, when Anakin comes to him for advice, he correctly recognizes the source of Anakin's anguish: his feelings of attachment to Padme and his desire to seek power to keep her with him forever. It isn't the answer Anakin wants to hear, but it's the correct one, since Anakin's obsession with saving Padme and becoming powerful enough to make things go his way really does become his undoing.

In fact, we've never really seen a case where the Jedi were actually demonstrably wrong about how they approached fear, anger, hate, and suffering. We've only seen cases where they fail to reach those who are in danger of slipping to the dark side.

Yoda is an asshole. Through and through. First he initially refused to have Anakin be trained, then he refused to train Luke and had to be petitioned by ghost Kenobi IIRC, and even then that fucker disappears and leaves Luke alone, because Luke wanted to save his friends. Then Yoda quips that 'OH WE CAN ALWAYS USE LEIA' when Luke leaves. Then he disappears. He is a cosmic asshole.
 
Yeah. Anakin was supposed to do that-Balance both the Light and the Dark, but he went towards the dark. Instead the Prequels presented alot of concepts that were muddy in execution, and it kinda fumbled on it.

This is an incorrect interpretation of "bring balance to the Force."

Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:

"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/8720/whats-the-meaning-of-bring-balance-to-the-force
 
Luke in viii, leia in ix :3

Naaaah, I bet Leia survives it all. Luke will probably die in IX.

I *kinda* wanna see Leia fight with a saber. They'd have to find a good way to explain it--Luke trained her in secret or something. It's just weird that a Force-sensitive person isn't doing shit with it, other than command a small rebel force.

Don't know if Fisher would be interested/up for it, though. Really don't need an Ian McDiarmid situation again.

EDIT: On second thought, maybe not actually using a saber...but using the Force *somehow* has to happen in this trilogy.
 
Lucas also tried to give a scientific explanation to the Force through Midichlorians. George Lucas is the Yoda of move makers.

"The Force is strong in my family."

"So you're saying Force abilities can be passed down biologically?"

"No, that's stupid Lucas prequel science mumbo-jumbo."

If to be a true and pure Jedi you have to remain calm and stoic at all times, Yoda was literally the Emperor when we first meet him in Empire.

bahaha
 
Jedi in the OT aren't uncaring, stoic people.

That's after their whole society collapsed because they were too busy trying to preserve their traditions and being uncaring, stoic people.

Funny how a collapse of society will make you change your views. Qui-Gon was right after all those years.

If to be a true and pure Jedi you have to remain calm and stoic at all times, Yoda was literally the Emperor when we first meet him in Empire.

That was after the collapse of their society. Yoda did play stupid at first to see if Luke would be patient. It was all part of his asshole act. My dissertation is going to be about how Yoda is a cosmic asshole in all forms of the meaning.
 
That's after their whole society collapsed because they were too busy trying to preserve their traditions and being uncaring, stoic people.

Funny how a collapse of society will make you change your views. Qui-Gon was right after all those years.

Qui-Gon was the biggest asshole of them all, by your trollish metrics.

Anakin asked if he was there to free all the slaves, and he was just like "nah, bro, I only give two shits about you because of some prophecy from my uncaring, stoic space monk family."

But it's k, people aren't here to debate seriously, just to watch you shift the goalposts.
 
Qui-Gon was the biggest asshole of them all, by your trollish metrics.

Anakin asked if he was there to free all the slaves, and he was just like "nah, bro, I only give two shits about you because of some prophecy from my uncaring, stoic space monk family."

Qui-Gon had his priorities, he knew to pick his fights. You leave him alone, he's a saint. I'm also pretty sure that he was lambasted by the Jedi Council for believing in the prophecy.

But it's k, people aren't here to debate seriously, just to watch you shift the goalposts.

Goal posts for what exactly!? Good lord can't people have a discussion here without there having to be a debate?
 
This is an incorrect interpretation of "bring balance to the Force."

Lucas' word is one thing, but the way The Clone Wars series depicts it on Mortis would seem to indicate otherwise. It depicts Anakin as being someone who would master both the light and the dark simultaneously, existing somewhere in the middle, and this is why he was the chosen one. The Force Awakens seems to take the same stance based on things said in the Art Of book.

I get the impression that the dark and light go hand in hand as sort of a yin yang thing, and one may not be able to exist without the other. One of the quotes in the book that they used as inspiration for the way the force works and the plot of TFA was (vague from memory) "Every match you light also casts shadows." It implies that by recreating the Jedi, Luke inadvertently recreated the dark side by tipping the balance. This taught him that his understanding of the force was faulty so he sought out the first Jedi temple for answers.

It's been said many times that the Jedi of the Republic era were not what they were supposed to be and had gone down the wrong path, and Yoda himself admitted that their understanding of the prophecy could be wrong. Perhaps we could even say that Lucas' understanding of the force is what the Republic Jedi thought it to be, and now Luke is seeking to understand JJ's force.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Lucas' word is one thing, but the way The Clone Wars series depicts it on Mortis would seem to indicate otherwise. It depicts Anakin as being someone who would master both the light and the dark simultaneously, existing somewhere in the middle, and this is why he was the chosen one. The Force Awakens seems to take the same stance based on things said in the Art Of book.

I get the impression that the dark and light go hand in hand as sort of a yin yang thing, and one may not be able to exist without the other. One of the quotes in the book that they used as inspiration for the way the force works and the plot of TFA was (vague from memory) "Every match you light also casts shadows." It implies that by recreating the Jedi, Luke inadvertently recreated the dark side by tipping the balance. This taught him that his understanding of the force was faulty so he sought out the first Jedi temple for answers.

Lucas has also commented on the dualistic nature of the Force, so I think the dark side being a natural element is correct. It's abuse of the dark side that is a cancer upon the Force. The dark side in its natural state is not inherently an evil thing, I don't think, but the Sith seek to use it, control it, dominate the Force itself as a tool, and that destroys the precarious balance. The true balance is between the Living and Cosmic Force, and the light and dark sides are just aspects of it all.
 

Boke1879

Member
Certainly Yoda and Obi-Wan had reflected on their failures but they still carried over some of the same tendencies.

"You must not go!"
"And sacrifice Han and Leia if I don't?!"
"If you honor what they fight for, yes."

They even thought Vader was beyond saving. For good reason though. Luke Tells Obi Wan. "I can't kill my own father." and Obi Wan is just like "Welp! The Emperor has already won!"
 
Yoda was a cynical asshole in the OT. I loved how he spoke with a normal syntax whenever he was dropping truth bombs. It highlighted how his reversed speech pattern was just an act. They should have made PT Yoda a heavy smoker and alcoholic or something instead of good guy greenie.
 
They even thought Vader was beyond saving. For good reason though. Luke Tells Obi Wan. "I can't kill my own father." and Obi Wan is just like "Welp! The Emperor has already won!"

Yup. And maybe Anakin was as prophecised, because whatever Light he had helped him to kill the emperor, and come back as a ghost which IIRC only Light Side Jedi can do.
 
Lucas' word is one thing, but the way The Clone Wars series depicts it on Mortis would seem to indicate otherwise. It depicts Anakin as being someone who would master both the light and the dark simultaneously, existing somewhere in the middle, and this is why he was the chosen one. The Force Awakens seems to take the same stance based on things said in the Art Of book.

I get the impression that the dark and light go hand in hand as sort of a yin yang thing, and one may not be able to exist without the other. One of the quotes in the book that they used as inspiration for the way the force works and the plot of TFA was (vague from memory) "Every match you light also casts shadows." It implies that by recreating the Jedi, Luke inadvertently recreated the dark side by tipping the balance. This taught him that his understanding of the force was faulty so he sought out the first Jedi temple for answers.

I haven't watched all of TCW yet (I'm well into Season 1, though), but as far as TFA goes, despite what was tossed around during production, the final film appears to go in the exact opposite direction.

The first thing we hear about the Force is: "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force."

And then, to Kylo: "Something far worse has happened to you."

This all seems to fall back on Lucas's interpretation - which, by the way, was no stranger to the yin-yang duality idea. The two forces are constantly at odds; the mere existence of the Force admits the potential to use it for good or for evil; doing one or the other invites others to pursue the opposite; and no matter how far you go in one direction you still have a little of the other within you.

But it's only when the dark side's influence takes hold - through Palpatine's scheming, or through the First Order's plotting - that there's disharmony in the galaxy, and that hasn't changed with TFA.

It's been said many times that the Jedi of the Republic era were not what they were supposed to be and had gone down the wrong path, and Yoda himself admitted that their understanding of the prophecy could be wrong. Perhaps we could even say that Lucas' understanding of the force is what the Republic Jedi thought it to be, and now Luke is seeking to understand JJ's force.

Their understanding of the prophecy was wrong: it was not a Jedi who defeated the Sith through his Jedi training; it was a fallen Jedi-turned-Sith who through the compassion of his son sacrificed himself and cast aside his own evil to defeat the Sith.

Lucas has also commented on the dualistic nature of the Force, so I think the dark side being a natural element is correct. It's abuse of the dark side that is a cancer upon the Force. The dark side in its natural state is not inherently an evil thing, I don't think, but the Sith seek to use it, control it, dominate the Force itself as a tool, and that destroys the precarious balance. The true balance is between the Living and Cosmic Force, and the light and dark sides are just aspects of it all.

I look at the duality in another way:

- The light side is about seeking to bring yourself into harmony with the Force
- The dark side is about seeking to bring the Force into harmony with yourself

There's an interesting line from the Episode III novelization about how using the dark side is like making yourself the center of the universe. So, on the flip side, using the light side would be like letting go of yourself so you can arrive at the real center of the universe: the Force.

Naturally, both each have elements from the other:

- Both require some degree of control to wield the Force expertly (for the light side, it's like steering a ship in cooperation with the wind; for the dark side, it's like pulling lightning from a cloud)
- Both require awareness of the movements of the Force (continuing the above analogy, a light side user needs to sense where the wind is blowing; the dark side user needs to understand how lightning is formed)

I agree with the interpretation that there's no real light side or dark side; that is, the Force isn't literally cut in half or anything like that (thus, there's nothing to be "brought into balance" by wielding them equally). It's just a term that describes these two means through which the Force can be wielded. Palpatine calls it a "pathway" rather than a "force" unto itself.
 

sphagnum

Banned
I think part of the confusion is that it's never been quite settled whether the "light" and "dark sides" (the term "light side of the Force" has never actually even been used in the movies, and TFA - the first one without Lucas' involvement - is the first one to keep talking about "the light") are actual real aspects of the Force or if they're just terms for how people use them. The old EU jumped back and forth, but Luke seemed to settle on the latter due to the whole Unifying Force thing.
 
I think part of the confusion is that it's never been quite settled whether the "light" and "dark sides" (the term "light side of the Force" has never actually even been used in the movies, and TFA - the first one without Lucas' involvement - is the first one to keep talking about "the light") are actual real aspects of the Force or if they're just terms for how people use them. The old EU jumped back and forth, but Luke seemed to settle on the latter due to the whole Unifying Force thing.

It's an assumption, I would say. There's the Force, and the Dark Side, so naturally that means that the neutral 'Force' is Light side.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
It's verbally conveyed in a single scene.

Han: "Here, take this."
Rey: "I think I can handle myself."
Han: "I know you do, that's why I'm giving it to you."

Han: "You know how to use it?"
Rey: "Sure. You pull the trigger."
Han: "You've got a lot to learn."

It's also displayed later when she fires with the safety on, misses her first few shots at troopers, and makes decisions to open fire when she could have hidden.

Two major developments in the story occur because Rey is overconfident in her abilities. The first is when she messes up pulling fuses on Han's freighter (the film helpfully supplies dialogue to emphasize this: Finn: "This was a mistake!" Rey: "Huge!") She'd had a string of "look how great I am at being a mechanic" moments, but she got ahead of herself there.

The other is her impulsiveness and inexperience with the blaster getting her captured by Kylo Ren. She tags a few troopers after missing a few shots, which gets her needlessly marked by the First Order. As Ren advances on her, Rey is firing wildly, most of her shots missing completely; Ren only has to block a few before freezing her.

She's very capable, but prone to getting in over her head.

She's not a perfect mechanic; she messed up the fuses on the freighter.

She's not a perfect pilot; she fumbled the takeoff of the Falcon and they took numerous hits during the skirmish.

She's not a perfect shot; she misses all kinds of shots with the blaster.

She's not a perfect Jedi; she fumbles every Force ability she tries at least once until the Force pull at the very end, and doesn't gain the upper hand in the fight against Kylo until he reminds her that the Force exists, at which point she starts to rely on it in a way she hadn't been before.

She doesn't boast, but she constantly puts herself/is put in situations where these abilities are essential, and it doesn't always have fantastic results.
Also a good list.
 
Like insanity, maybe there is a fine line between the light and the dark, its the actions in which we choose that define us.

That's how I view it. The Force is the Force, but how it is used is what is Light or Dark. The Jedi thought that love and passion would lead to more power, but it's an easy trap to fall into. You get caught up in the power and abuse it.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
The way she's holding the Saber towards Luke in the end is definitely a sign of giving it to him. It's a question of whether she'll want to down the route of being trained. She definitely seems sure of herself at the end of it, when Leia tells her 'The force be with you' and she smiles.



Literally nobody said that. So what if she goes dark side? You wouldn't think that's interesting? It has nothing to do with her gender. If it was Finn in her position, I'd want him to go dark side as well.

Why? Why does going to the dark side suddenly make her or Finn more interesting than they already are? What are we gaining narratively from them going to the Dark Side? There are already plenty of Dark Side characters in the movie. Adding Rey or Finn to the mix will accomplish, what, exactly? The "oh shit, now he/she is a BAD GUY!" factor holds little interest in and of itself. Of course, a character going to the dark side could be handled well by competent writers, but the truth of the matter is that as a creator, you most certainly, 100% have to sit back and think of the message you are bringing across in your work. It's also 100% your discretion to go through with it anyway.

Rey is one of the few genuinely well handled female protagonists in film. She is smart, resourceful, funny, good natured, and honest. Little girls and grown women are flocking to her because she's a female in fiction that is actually getting to do the shit that the "big boys" have been doing for generations of film and television (and other media like novels). As a result, there is a lot of careful thought that has to go into how this character is handled. Because she's such a rarity, if she falls to the Dark Side, the message it's sending, even if it's unintentional, is that a woman, when given power, is unequipped to handle that power. The truth is that there is simply a different set of standards applied to women than men (and vice versa), and in the case of female protagonists, especially female protagonists in something as mainstream and culturally relevant as Star Wars, means way more to women fans of Star Wars than male fans, who have had, quite literally, 6 movies be about them being awesome and capable, and heroic, even if one of the 9 primary characters across the two trilogies fell to the Dark Side.

Having Rey, the first female character in a Star Wars movie to actually DO SHIT, fall to the Dark Side would be a grave misstep, and on a personal level, I don't think it would add to the story from a dramatic standpoint. When would you have her turn? In the second movie, and then what happens in the third? Does she have an equally abrupt change of heart (the wishy washy nature of women, right?/s), or does she continue to fall to the Dark Side, dying a villain's death, and thus cementing another failure of Luke Skywalker's teachings as a Jedi "Master?"

As I mentioned in a super long post above, you have to consider how the characters various story arcs play off of, and affect other character's story arcs. Look at Obi-Wan Kenobi. His primary arc is that he took Anakin Skywalker under his wing, and failed him. Anakin fell to the Dark Side, and was lost. The back end of Obi-Wan's arc is that he redeemed that failure by training Anakin's son, Luke, thus leading to Luke being able to do what Obi-Wan couldn't, and bring Anakin back to the light side of the force.

Luke's arc, as the new Obi-Wan figure, is that after redeeming his father, he started up an academy, but his nephew, of all people, fell to the Dark Side and wiped them out. Leia thought that Luke could help her son, and he failed her. He failed Han. He failed Ben Solo. Of all of the talk about how TFA "robbed" the trio of their happily ever after hinted at in Return of the Jedi, following up Luke's failure with Ben Solo with another failure of teaching would be like kicking a puppy with a broken leg. It would be sloppy story-telling. Storytelling that was more concerned with having their "Oh shit" moment than considering how a "Dark Side Rey" arc would reflect on the other characters in the film, and their personal arcs. How much failure should Luke have to endure before he dies? It just doesn't make sense to me that they'd follow up Ben's fall to the Dark Side with Rey's fall to the Dark Side. Especially when, as set up by TFA, Kylo's arc trajectory does not look like that of one of redemption. He is going to fall even deeper into the Dark Side. The conflict he felt in TFA was extinguished when he killed his father. Yes, he was torn apart, and the immediate aftermath of that event was him getting bested by Rey, but now that his "test" is over, and he passed, he is ready to take the next step. To upgrade.

Rey's arc seems to be that of a gifted Force user coming to terms with her past, and finding a balance in herself. I feel like true "balance" in the Force, is one of accepting that there is both light and dark inside of you. Yin and Yang. The Jedi tried to purge all darkness. The Sith tried to purge all light. True balance and harmony is learning to become one with both aspects of your nature. Rey displayed both Light and Dark qualities throughout the movie, and especially in the end of the film. She is wearing neutral gray in the very last scene. Perhaps a visual metaphor for that potential balance of Light and Dark.

I don't doubt that she is going to be tempted by the Dark Side, but unlike the prequel trilogy Jedi and Sith, I think she is going to be one of the few Jedi that masters the light and dark sides of herself. That's what will make her arc different and interesting compared to Anakin and Luke's. And it will also be a moment of redemption and victory for Luke Skywalker as well, once he learns, through his new apprentice, that running from your Dark Side is just as damaging to your being as embracing it. It should be a very interesting, and different trilogy from the first two if that is the case. But no, I don't think that Rey going Dark Side would be interesting. It would be, to put it frankly, typical mishandling of strong women in fiction.

I have yet to hear a compelling explanation as to why Rey going full Dark Side, and Kylo going Light Side, would make a lick of sense beyond the "cool" factor. The subtext from a few people is that Rey goes bad because women can't control their emotions. Obviously, that's not why EVERYONE that thinks Rey should go Dark Side, but a lot of it seems to come from the uncomfortable feeling some people have about the fact that Rey is just so damn good and capable; a rarity in fiction. Like it's literally unbelievable that a girl could be an excellent pilot, fighter, and Force User. These same arguments are often handwaved when the lens is focused on male characters like Luke and Anakin, who displayed just as much capability in similar scenarios as Rey. The only thing I can take from that line of argument is subconscious sexism. Not all men (or women), that have a problem with Rey do so because of sexism, but obviously, if it doesn't apply to you, there's no need to get offended by it when someone mentions it (there is already ample evidence out there that people have issues with both Finn and Rey because he is black, and she is a woman, respectively). I'm not going to shy away from mentioning sexist motivations concerning some people's dislike of Rey, or racist subtext and motivations for people's dislike of Finn, because they are uncomfortable to consider, even in something as fun an family friendly as Star Wars.

And as a black man, yeah, I'd actually be pretty annoyed if Finn was Force Sensitive, and fell to the Dark Side. Because, for me, it'd be just another example of the "Angry Black Man," who can't control his anger, and is bad. Women and minorities are in a lot of the same positions as far as positive, encouraging representation in the media. It's easy to shrug off that lack of representation when you are part of a privileged group that has diverse representation in media. A white drug dealer in a tv show, for example, is an anomaly. A black drug dealer in a tv show, is par for the course. A strong, capable, intelligent, multi-talented white guy in fiction, is a dime a dozen. A strong, capable, multi-talented black woman in fiction, is an anomaly. So yeah, women and minorities get really attached to any positive representation we get thrown our way in various media. And if that representation suddenly turns sour, it stings just all the more, because of the lack of so few alternative positive representation, especially on the level of Star Wars. Women and minorities are expected to get the same level of heroic inspiration from white males as they would a heroic woman, or a heroic minority (whether it be a minority male or female). But that's not really how psychology works, and the lack of role models that look like you is mentally and emotionally damaging, even on a sub-conscious level. It would suck really bad to have yet another female/minority fall into the same tropes and cliches and stereotypes they always fall into.

I've mentioned it before, but growing up, in school, I wasn't allowed to be Batman, Superman, The Flash, Green Lantern, or Spider-Man (five of my favorite heroes ever at the time), because I was black. I had to be the bad guy that my white friends (all playing, Batman, Superman, The Flash, etc) got to beat up. And I didn't even get to be a bad guy with powers (they were all white too: Lex Luthor, Joker, Sinestro, etc), I got to be the generic thug who was robbing the bank, and the JLA (with honorary inductee Spider-Man), got to foil. So yeah, when I learned of characters like John Stewart as Green Lantern, or learned of Luke Cage and Falcon, and Black Panther, and recently with Miles Morales becoming Spider-Man, you can't imagine how absolutely excited I was that I could finally join in on all of the superhero fun that my classmates were having now that there was a hero that I could actually be. Funny aside, but in my neighborhood, all of my friends were black, because it was a predominantly black neighborhood, and we all got to be Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc when I played with them, but I didn't see them as much as my classmates in school, who I spent the entire day playing with.

So, yeah, having the few well represented, developed, likable, and charming black and female protagonists in Star Wars go bad would be a lot more damaging and upsetting than many realize. I applaud Abrams and Kasdan for creating Rey and Finn, and handling them so excellently (the trick was writing them like any other character, regardless of gender and ethnicity).

Sorry for the long rant. My apologies.
 

Toxi

Banned
Rey turning to the dark side could work.

It also might not.
He definitely does not have the red arm at the end, when he waves as Rey leaves in the Falcon.
Oh, I must have missed that. He definitely had the red arm when Rey got back from Starkiller.
 

Veelk

Banned
On the discussion of flaws, trying to frame the discussion of whether rey has any by labeling arbitrary traits as flawed is simply not an accurate way of depicting real life human beings.

I have this friend that if I were to describe him to you, on sheer paper, you'd think he was too perfect of a character to write a story about. He's very handsome in his facial features. He's worked out since he was 13 and has somehow developed a metabolism that is so efficient that he has just 4 percent body fat. Literally, eating junk food is sickening to him, so he only eats healthy. And, naturally from the weight lifting he does, he's extremely strong. But he has a very lean body, so he's not a super buff guy. He used to be upset about this, but now he actually is pretty happy with it because it makes him less intidating to people around him vs when he has his shirt off and you can see his muscles sticking out over his frame. So, basically he has the body of a greek god of lust. I'm serious, one time we went to a Life in Color concert, and he had his shirt off, and random girls literally came up to him starry eyed asking "Can I hug you" before resting her head against his sixpack.

But in terms of personality? He's a very humble, very down to earth kind of guy. I've seen him get angry, but I've never seen him lose his temper. He's gotten into fights, but only against people who are harassing him in a major way, and he's never gone overboard. He used to practice martial arts, so he knows how to actually fight, and one hit is usually enough to take down anyone he's fighting. Naturally, he would never hit anyone who was weaker than him for any but the most necessary reasons. He's very friendly and funny. Sarcastic, but never insultingly so. He'll make fun of the absurdity of a situation or exaggerate it, but he'll never insult a person directly. Even as health and fitness oriented as he is, even though he doesn't look kindly upon obesity, he refuses to actually mock anyone for it. There was this one time a guy was really being a dick in general, and he's telling me about his life faults, he was about to say that he talk about his wife, but he stopped himself and said "Look, I don't know her, so I'm not going to judge, so I'm just gonna tell you the facts", which more reflected on the kind of person the guy was rather than trashtalking the girl. He's so easy to talk to that people use him for a therapist, including me, when he's available to chill with. And he's never cheated on any of his girlfriends even though he grew up with a clique of friends that did that all the time, and he always cautiously picks the girls he's with as he has a fairly strict set of standards for them, and as a result there hasn't been a single girlfriend he had for less than 2 years, even though high school. Yet, despite his rigorous standards, he doesn't look down on any girl that doesn't meet them. For example, he personally doesn't want a girl who casually has sex with people, but I've never seen him slutshame, even when I grilled him on how he reconciles refusing to date a girl that has casual sex with not passing judgement over her with that. To him, it's not that casual sex is bad, it's just not what he wants out of a partner, so he's fine with other people doing whatever, and he's just doing his own thing without placing judgement on the lives of others. And his current girlfriend is not the most attractive girl he could date (in fact, he got one that stalked him, more or less, at one point, and wouldn't stop until she graduated and moved to australia), and they had relationship trouble partially because of a bullshit from girls that tried to seperate him from her and partially because they had trouble bridging their workschedules to make intimacy work, but they've seem to resolve that and have been happy together since).

And in terms of his personal interests, he's someone whose heavily connected to his artistic side. I've seen his drawings which are pretty good for someone who does it only casually, he plays the guitar and even wrote a song or two, he is a star wars nut, he got into yugioh just because he found a blue eyes white dragon on the street one day, he has a collection of vinyl disks he uses to decorate the walls of his room, he puts candles in bottles of expensive alcohol he drank (oh, that's another thing. He drinks, but he never gets drunk. Ever. When he was in high school, he would flat out never drink, so he made progress with that, but he refuses to actually let himself get out of control drunk). He's also a car freak. He actually has working knowledge of how to make cars, and he'll owned a modded out Toyota Z that sounded like a roaring monster because of the exhaust pipe he put in. He was a huge drifter, and would still be doing it if he had his Z. Instead, now he has a jeep, which he takes off roading.

And, obviously, he's highly intelligent. He's in psychology like me, but before that he was in sociology and has done 3 projects that have gotten him published in journals and was invited to a super exclusive lab in our school. We often talk about how people's minds work, what implications there are about the future, the depression we both have to struggle with, etc. He also believes in god, but his believes don't manifest in the typical christian way. He doesn't practice praying or has any qualms about premarital sex. He just believes that which you look on as good is God, and the forces in the world that make things worse is the devil, such as the depression he suffers (which, obviously, doesn't mean he's not scientifically minded about it, it's just that he frames these things in a spiritual manner because that connects with him more). This is, bafflingly, despite the fact that his a moral relativist, thinking no one is actually obligated to be good.

And he even has a fucking tragic backstory to top it all off. I won't divulge the details here, but he had drug problems that he almost OD'd on, and the turning point that made him come clean was like a scene out of a movie. He was suicidal for no reason he could adequately explain, even now. It's partially where he gets his spiritual beliefs, because in his mind, there is no reason he should have survived that, but he did, so now he's living his life as best he can. He himself is baffled that when he tells people this, he expects them to think less of him for having been a drug user, but he notices that makes people like him more. "No duh," I told him. "People love tragic backstories. It's less a character flaw and more that they understand you've felt pain before, and that immediately creates a sense of empathy and it's a mark of strength because you've made it past an ordeal. It's basic character writing." He still seemed confused.

For all, this, I have no notion that he is a perfect person, far from it. The guy has problems, both practical ones that he's had to deal with in real life. But the most evident one is, he's never, even today, actually happy. He has all these things I described a life that anyone would want, tragic backstory involved, and he isn't happy. He describes his life as a ladder where he thinks if he keeps going up, he'll be happy. But he never is, yet at the same time he sees no reason on why he shouldn't be consistently the happiest guy on the planet.

So I've written all this down, and on paper, without all the sordid details that bring the image of his life to life, this guy would be considered an archtypical mary sue. Handsome, fit, intelligent, skilled, can kick your ass, personable, with a tragic past, has (or has had, and will have again someday) a cool car, isn't judgemental, is in touch with his artistic and sensitive side, very kind and considerate, humble despite all his achievements....he's just unbelievable, right? But he's alive. He exists. He's fucking real. He doesn't have any particular 'flaws' that I can pick out, because life doesn't work that way. People have characteristics, and they sometimes work for you and for others, and sometimes they don't. The fact that he suffers depression means he's miserable, but it also pushes him to be the best person he can be. The fact that he has a lean frame used to be something he felt bad about once, making it a 'flaw', but now is happy because it means he doesn't intimidate people, making it a 'strength'. Maybe one day he'll need to be intimidating for whatever reason, making it a flaw again that he isn't. The fact that he's handsome means he's appealing to many, but that has caused trouble with his relationship because there were girls that he wouldn't leave alone. He has standards, but for all he knows, he missed out on his soul mate because dismisses girls because they smoke or something like that. Boxing these characteristics into flaws or otherwise is reductive to how people work. He's not a flaws or unflawed character, he's a three dimensional human being who goes through life interacting with others in his unique way, and sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.



My very long winded point is that I've known people that are 'more perfect' than even Rey is. He's not even the only one. I'm very lucky to have met some amazing people (amazing in that they're deep and complex human beings. I've met some unpleasant people as well, and I've made it a point to get to know them as well. Sometimes, it didn't make them any less unpleasant, but they were no less fascinating for all that) and gotten to know them, and they all have amazing stories to tell. Trying to slapdash some arbitrary flaw onto Rey is thinking she's a narrative mechanic instead of a person....which, in fairness, she is. However, the point of fiction is for us to buy into the lie. We are supposed to look at Rey as a human being, and imagining "Oh, if she only was overconfident, I might believe in her" is counter intuitive. There's nothing believable about Rey being an extremely skilled person without being haughty about it because there are people who are like that. And they're fascinating without having to add an arbitrary undesirable trait along the way. Characters are about who they are as people, not what they are as a spreadsheet of positive and negative characteristics.
 
Why? Why does going to the dark side suddenly make her or Finn more interesting than they already are? What are we gaining narratively from them going to the Dark Side? There are already plenty of Dark Side characters in the movie. Adding Rey or Finn to the mix will accomplish, what, exactly? The "oh shit, now he/she is a BAD GUY!" factor holds little interest in and of itself. Of course, a character going to the dark side could be handled well by competent writers, but the truth of the matter is that as a creator, you most certainly, 100% have to sit back and think of the message you are bringing across in your work. It's also 100% your discretion to go through with it anyway.

Again, it would be interesting for a star wars film. Have a character go dark and then redeem themselves by the end.

You seem to be taking heavily into account that she's a girl, and how her going dark side would affect the message of having a female lead and how females view her. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about narrative stand point where Rey explores the dark side to gain a perfect balance in the force utilizing both sides. That would be great. That could be written to be great. What would it accomplish? In the Star Wars universe, it would define that the Dark can't survive without the Light, and vice versa.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to see Rey go dark side. For a Star Wars film, it would be interesting. The Emperor tried to tempt Luke into being his apprentice, to kill Vader, but Luke declined. What if Rey accepts Snokes temptation and kills Ren? Or incapacitates him and leaves him for dead? Only for in the 3rd movie to have Ren and Rey both be light side and fight against Snoke? It'd be interesting. It would be redemption for Ren, and it would show that Rey has mastery over both sides.

(And as you put it, yes it would be 'cool'. But again, there's nothing wrong with that.)
 
So, yeah, having the few well represented, developed, likable, and charming black and female protagonists in Star Wars go bad would be a lot more damaging and upsetting than many realize. I applaud Abrams and Kasdan for creating Rey and Finn, and handling them so excellently (the trick was writing them like any other character, regardless of gender and ethnicity).

This was a goddamn fantastic post and I can't thank you enough for writing it.

To distill this to its purest point:

"What kind of message does it send if one of the first examples of a major iconic film franchise featuring a female/black lead protagonist forces that character to be morally 'redeemed' before s/he can be considered to have legitimately triumphed as a hero on the same level as the original white male protagonist?"
 
On the discussion of flaws, trying to frame the discussion of whether rey has any by labeling arbitrary traits as flawed is simply not an accurate way of depicting real life human beings.

I have this friend that if I were to describe him to you, on sheer paper, you'd think he was too perfect of a character to write a story about. He's very handsome in his facial features. He's worked out since he was 13 and has somehow developed a metabolism that is so efficient that he has just 4 percent body fat. Literally, eating junk food is sickening to him, so he only eats healthy. And, naturally from the weight lifting he does, he's extremely strong. But he has a very lean body, so he's not a super buff guy. He used to be upset about this, but now he actually is pretty happy with it because it makes him less intidating to people around him vs when he has his shirt off and you can see his muscles sticking out over his frame. So, basically he has the body of a greek god of lust. I'm serious, one time we went to a Life in Color concert, and he had his shirt off, and random girls literally came up to him starry eyed asking "Can I hug you" before resting her head against his sixpack.

But in terms of personality? He's a very humble, very down to earth kind of guy. I've seen him get angry, but I've never seen him lose his temper. He's gotten into fights, but only against people who are harassing him in a major way, and he's never gone overboard. He used to practice martial arts, so he knows how to actually fight, and one hit is usually enough to take down anyone he's fighting. Naturally, he would never hit anyone who was weaker than him for any but the most necessary reasons. He's very friendly and funny. Sarcastic, but never insultingly so. He'll make fun of the absurdity of a situation or exaggerate it, but he'll never insult a person directly. Even as health and fitness oriented as he is, even though he doesn't look kindly upon obesity, he refuses to actually mock anyone for it. There was this one time a guy was really being a dick in general, and he's telling me about his life faults, he was about to say that he talk about his wife, but he stopped himself and said "Look, I don't know her, so I'm not going to judge, so I'm just gonna tell you the facts", which more reflected on the kind of person the guy was rather than trashtalking the girl. He's so easy to talk to that people use him for a therapist, including me, when he's available to chill with. And he's never cheated on any of his girlfriends even though he grew up with a clique of friends that did that all the time, and he always cautiously picks the girls he's with as he has a fairly strict set of standards for them, and as a result there hasn't been a single girlfriend he had for less than 2 years, even though high school. Yet, despite his rigorous standards, he doesn't look down on any girl that doesn't meet them. For example, he personally doesn't want a girl who casually has sex with people, but I've never seen him slutshame, even when I grilled him on how he reconciles refusing to date a girl that has casual sex with not passing judgement over her with that. To him, it's not that casual sex is bad, it's just not what he wants out of a partner, so he's fine with other people doing whatever, and he's just doing his own thing without placing judgement on the lives of others. And his current girlfriend is not the most attractive girl he could date (in fact, he got one that stalked him, more or less, at one point, and wouldn't stop until she graduated and moved to australia), and they had relationship trouble partially because of a bullshit from girls that tried to seperate him from her and partially because they had trouble bridging their workschedules to make intimacy work, but they've seem to resolve that and have been happy together since).

And in terms of his personal interests, he's someone whose heavily connected to his artistic side. I've seen his drawings which are pretty good for someone who does it only casually, he plays the guitar and even wrote a song or two, he is a star wars nut, he got into yugioh just because he found a blue eyes white dragon on the street one day, he has a collection of vinyl disks he uses to decorate the walls of his room, he puts candles in bottles of expensive alcohol he drank (oh, that's another thing. He drinks, but he never gets drunk. Ever. When he was in high school, he would flat out never drink, so he made progress with that, but he refuses to actually let himself get out of control drunk). He's also a car freak. He actually has working knowledge of how to make cars, and he'll owned a modded out Toyota Z that sounded like a roaring monster because of the exhaust pipe he put in. He was a huge drifter, and would still be doing it if he had his Z. Instead, now he has a jeep, which he takes off roading.

And, obviously, he's highly intelligent. He's in psychology like me, but before that he was in sociology and has done 3 projects that have gotten him published in journals and was invited to a super exclusive lab in our school. We often talk about how people's minds work, what implications there are about the future, the depression we both have to struggle with, etc. He also believes in god, but his believes don't manifest in the typical christian way. He doesn't practice praying or has any qualms about premarital sex. He just believes that which you look on as good is God, and the forces in the world that make things worse is the devil, such as the depression he suffers (which, obviously, doesn't mean he's not scientifically minded about it, it's just that he frames these things in a spiritual manner because that connects with him more). This is, bafflingly, despite the fact that his a moral relativist, thinking no one is actually obligated to be good.

And he even has a fucking tragic backstory to top it all off. I won't divulge the details here, but he had drug problems that he almost OD'd on, and the turning point that made him come clean was like a scene out of a movie. He was suicidal for no reason he could adequately explain, even now. It's partially where he gets his spiritual beliefs, because in his mind, there is no reason he should have survived that, but he did, so now he's living his life as best he can. He himself is baffled that when he tells people this, he expects them to think less of him for having been a drug user, but he notices that makes people like him more. "No duh," I told him. "People love tragic backstories. It's less a character flaw and more that they understand you've felt pain before, and that immediately creates a sense of empathy. We've all felt pain before. It's character writing 101." He still seemed confused.

For all, this, I have no notion that he is a perfect person, far from it. The guy has problems, both practical ones that he's had to deal with in real life. But the most evident one is, he's never, even today, actually happy. He has all these things I described a life that anyone would want, even He describes his life as a ladder where he thinks if he keeps going up, he'll be happy. But he never is, yet at the same time he sees no reason on why he shouldn't be consistently the happiest guy on the planet.

So I've written all this down, and on paper, without all the sordid details that bring the image of his life to life, this guy would be considered an archtypical mary sue. Handsome, fit, intelligent, skilled, personable, with a tragic past, has (or has had, and will have again someday) a cool car, isn't judgemental, very kind and considerate, humble despite all his achievements....he's just unbelievable, right? But he's alive. He exists. He's fucking real. He doesn't have any particular 'flaws' that I can pick out, because life doesn't work that way. People have characteristics, and they sometimes work for you and for others, and sometimes they don't. The fact that he suffers depression means he's miserable, but it also pushes him to be the best person he can be. The fact that he's handsome means he's appealing to many, but that has caused trouble with his relationship because there were girls that he wouldn't leave alone. He has standards, but for all he knows, he missed out on his soul mate because dismisses girls because they smoke or something like that. He's not a flaws or unflawed character, he's a three dimensional human being who goes through life interacting with others in his unique way, and sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.



My very long winded point is that I've known people that are 'more perfect' than even Rey is. He's not even the only one. I'm very lucky to have met some amazing people (amazing in that they're deep and complex human beings. I've met some unpleasant people as well, and I've made it a point to get to know them as well. Sometimes, it didn't make them any less unpleasant, but they were no less fascinating for all that) and gotten to know them, and they all have amazing stories to tell. Trying to slapdash some arbitrary flaw onto Rey is thinking she's a narrative mechanic instead of a person....which, in fairness, she is. However, the point of fiction is for us to buy into the lie. We are supposed to look at Rey as a human being, and imagining "Oh, if she only was overconfident, I might believe in her" is counter intuitive. There's nothing believable about Rey being an extremely skilled person without being haughty about it because there are people who are like that. And they're fascinating without having to add an arbitrary undesirable trait along the way. Characters are about who they are as people, not what they are as a spreadsheet of positive and negative characteristics.

blade_1998_ancient_text_translation_part_2.jpg
 
I haven't watched all of TCW yet (I'm well into Season 1, though), but as far as TFA goes, despite what was tossed around during production, the final film appears to go in the exact opposite direction.

The first thing we hear about the Force is: "Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force."

And then, to Kylo: "Something far worse has happened to you."

This all seems to fall back on Lucas's interpretation - which, by the way, was no stranger to the yin-yang duality idea. The two forces are constantly at odds; the mere existence of the Force admits the potential to use it for good or for evil; doing one or the other invites others to pursue the opposite; and no matter how far you go in one direction you still have a little of the other within you.

But it's only when the dark side's influence takes hold - through Palpatine's scheming, or through the First Order's plotting - that there's disharmony in the galaxy, and that hasn't changed with TFA.

Their understanding of the prophecy was wrong: it was not a Jedi who defeated the Sith through his Jedi training; it was a fallen Jedi-turned-Sith who through the compassion of his son sacrificed himself and cast aside his own evil to defeat the Sith.

Well since the galaxy has between two and eight (knights of ren) dark side users running around causing a big raucous destroying planets and shit while the lone remaining jedi is hiding in isolation, I would certainly agree that without the Jedi there is a major lack of balance and Lor San Tekka's comment doesn't really decide anything either way.

Something interesting to note along the lines of what you were saying is that the book also elaborates on why Luke succeeded where Anakin failed. Supposedly it's because he acknowledged the dark within him even though he was aligned with the light. He didn't deny it, he just handled it. Previously the Jedi had chosen to believe that they had eliminated the dark within themselves, and they were mistaken. Everyone is indeed a mix of light and dark.

This is something that Yoda had to learn as well. He didn't learn it until just before Episode 3 happened, in s6 of The Clone Wars. Qui Gon learned it before him and it's assumed that Obi Wan did after him.

...I guess he didn't really have time to share his findings with the rest of his peeps.
 
He used the force to help him aim the shot. Luke was empowerment to choose to take the shot and he was empowered to use the force to aim it. He was fully empowered in aiming the shot since the force had its hand in that. Once he'd taken the shot the force was no longer being used. When the shot struck no force being used and when the Death Star exploded the force wasn't being used. In other words the force didn't explode the Death Star. My statement, how I am using my statement is very precise, Luke didn't blow up the Death Star using the force. He used the force to aim the shot.

Just FYI, this was a shot Luke routinely made back on Tatooine before he had ever even heard of the Force. Ben didn't 'train' Luke to use the force to take that shot, he gave Luke the confidence in a crucial moment to trust his instincts. My point being that he had been using the force to make similar shots for years without knowing.

Again, something he did back home all the time, bulls-eyeing womp rats in his T16. They're not much bigger than two metres you know.

I have nothing much to add to the discussion beyond that, but this stuck out to me.
 
That's after their whole society collapsed because they were too busy trying to preserve their traditions and being uncaring, stoic people.

Funny how a collapse of society will make you change your views. Qui-Gon was right after all those years.



That was after the collapse of their society. Yoda did play stupid at first to see if Luke would be patient. It was all part of his asshole act. My dissertation is going to be about how Yoda is a cosmic asshole in all forms of the meaning.

Yoda is a Dumbass!!! And here's why:

- This idiot knows Anakin suffering from half a galaxy away when his mother dies, yet cannot "see through you, we can" when Anakin says he's afraid of loss.
- Anakin then tells him that he fears someone close to him will die. It's such a HUGE DEAL to Anakin that he brings it up - not to his master - but the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. What does this fool tell him? "Let go of everything you fear to lose". In other words, let her die.

Yoda is indirectly responsible for Anakin turning to the dark side - because he really had no alternative.
 
Yoda is a Dumbass!!! And here's why:

- This idiot knows Anakin suffering from half a galaxy away when his mother dies, yet cannot "see through you, we can" when Anakin says he's afraid of loss.
- Anakin then tells him that he fears someone close to him will die. It's such a HUGE DEAL to Anakin that he brings it up - not to his master - but the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. What does this fool tell him? "Let go of everything you fear to lose". In other words, let her die.

Yoda is indirectly responsible for Anakin turning to the dark side - because he really had no alternative.

...Which wraps around to Yoda is a cosmic asshole!
 

-griffy-

Banned
Just FYI, this was a shot Luke routinely made back on Tatooine before he had ever even heard of the Force. Ben didn't 'train' Luke to use the force to take that shot, he gave Luke the confidence in a crucial moment to trust his instincts. My point being that he had been using the force to make similar shots for years without knowing.

Again, something he did back home all the time, bulls-eyeing womp rats in his T16. They're not much bigger than two metres you know.

I have nothing much to add to the discussion beyond that, but this stuck out to me.

Nah, the whole reason he could routinely make those shots that seasoned military pilots said were impossible is because of his latent Force abilities. The same reason a baby Anakin was the only human capable of being a podracer pilot, and the same reason Rey didn't even understand how she pulled off the crazy Falcon maneuver in her first action scene of the film. They had the Force all along, they just didn't realize it.

It was absolutely the Force that let Luke turn off his targeting computer, close his eyes, and make the impossible shot to destroy the Death Star. It wasn't just giving him confidence.
 
Yoda is a Dumbass!!! And here's why:

- This idiot knows Anakin suffering from half a galaxy away when his mother dies, yet cannot "see through you, we can" when Anakin says he's afraid of loss.
- Anakin then tells him that he fears someone close to him will die. It's such a HUGE DEAL to Anakin that he brings it up - not to his master - but the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. What does this fool tell him? "Let go of everything you fear to lose". In other words, let her die.

Yoda is indirectly responsible for Anakin turning to the dark side - because he really had no alternative.

No, this is the reason Anakin turned to the dark side:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

The Jedi failed to reach Anakin, and certainly weren't adequately prepared to take care of him (which is why they were hesitant to train him in the first place!), but that doesn't mean they weren't offering him exactly what he needed to avoid being wrecked by his nightmares.

I don't understand arguing TCW's interpretation vs. OT's interpretation of Balance as one being Non-Lucas and the Other Being Lucas.

Lucas was to my knowledge, Lucas was closely involved in TCW.. so both are his interpretations (or at the very least both had his approval) which means either can be correct or neither.

Also.. the TCW episode in question (S3 E15 "Overlords") seemed to me to indicate that Anakin was to police the two sides... not necessarily that he had to be in-tuned with both sides.

I really need to get through that series... haha

I'll report back with my thoughts once I get there!
 
I don't understand arguing TCW's interpretation vs. OT's interpretation of Balance as one being Non-Lucas and the other Being Lucas.

Lucas was, to my knowledge, closely involved in TCW.. so both are his interpretations (or at the very least both had his approval) which means either can be correct or neither.

Also.. the TCW episode in question (S3 E15 "Overlords") seemed to me to indicate that Anakin was to police the two sides... not necessarily that he had to be in-tuned with both sides.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
This was a goddamn fantastic post and I can't thank you enough for writing it.

To distill this to its purest point:

"What kind of message does it send if one of the first examples of a major iconic film franchise featuring a female/black lead protagonist forces that character to be morally 'redeemed' before s/he can be considered to have legitimately triumphed as a hero on the same level as the original white male protagonist?"

Man, I really wish I had tl;dr'd my post to what you just sad. That was my entire point that I blabbered on endlessly about. :(

Also, thank you! Me and my wife have conversations about representation on a regular basis. Throughout all of these conversations, I learned that women and minorities (my wife is white, and as I said before, I'm black/samoan), have so many similarities in terms of representation that, more often than not, falls back on gender roles and stereotypes that, because of how ingrained they are into our culture, often goes overlooked and swept aside by the group that has no shortage of representation of every type. White male protagonists run the gamut of sinner to saint, and everything in between. Women and minorities are usually supporting characters, let alone protagonists. Either the love interest/damsel in distress, or the magical negro that helps the white male hero reach his destiny.

I think The Force Awakens actually presents those tropes and cliches, then subverts them with Rey and Finn. It's pretty nice to see. Creed and Fury Road are two other examples where the non-traditional lead of the film is excellently handled, and tropes and gender roles and stereotypes are turned on their ear. Audience expectations are constantly played with in all three movies.
 
Why? Why does going to the dark side suddenly make her or Finn more interesting than they already are?
Characters that fail are interesting. Besides death, going to the Dark Side is seen as the ultimate failure. Of course, failing just to fail isn't the point. It's also about seeing them learn from their mistakes. And their successes will be much more effective when we see how hard they can fall. I don't think anyone is saying that it should happen suddenly; it would need the necessary buildup to make it work. And, equally, her return to the Light Side would need the necessary buildup as well.

That's if they did it and if they can do it well.

Nah, the whole reason he could routinely make those shots that seasoned military pilots said were impossible is because of his latent Force abilities. The same reason a baby Anakin was the only human capable of being a podracer pilot, and the same reason Rey didn't even understand how she pulled off the crazy Falcon maneuver in her first action scene of the film. They had the Force all along, they just didn't realize it.

It was absolutely the Force that let Luke turn off his targeting computer, close his eyes, and make the impossible shot to destroy the Death Star. It wasn't just giving him confidence.

Only one pilot said it was impossible. The shot was improbable without the computer, but it was apparently doable since they made an entire plan around it instead of hightailing it.

The Force helped Luke out, though. I think the issue is that instead of the Force working on faith as it did in the OT, the Force was now innate according to the PT. Usually, whenever I hear the Force, I substitute it with "faith."
 
Nah, the whole reason he could routinely make those shots that seasoned military pilots said were impossible is because of his latent Force abilities. The same reason a baby Anakin was the only human capable of being a podracer pilot, and the same reason Rey didn't even understand how she pulled off the crazy Falcon maneuver in her first action scene of the film. They had the Force all along, they just didn't realize it.

It was absolutely the Force that let Luke turn off his targeting computer, close his eyes, and make the impossible shot to destroy the Death Star. It wasn't just giving him confidence.

Yeah I did a quick edit to clarify that's what I meant. Though it's probably worth noting that Luke had his eyes wide open when he made the shot.
 
Man, I really wish I had tl;dr'd my post to what you just sad. That was my entire point that I blabbered on endlessly about. :(

Please don't think my way is superior or anything! It's really important that we see as many different shades of that perspective as possible. You never know what point people will latch onto, and while I personally take pleasure in distilling commentary to make it simple and digestible, that's not going to connect with everyone.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
As an aside, one of my favorite moments in the TFA is at the very end of the Rey/Ren duel, when they are grappling and the saber is burning through the snow around them. It was a quick but brutal knock down fight, and that moment when they were locked together made it feel that much more personal.

I wonder how many MRA really flipped out that Rey overpowered Kylo Ren so directly. Daisy Ridley could probably take Adam Driver; she was positively ripped for the film.
 

zma1013

Member
Yoda is a Dumbass!!! And here's why:

- This idiot knows Anakin suffering from half a galaxy away when his mother dies, yet cannot "see through you, we can" when Anakin says he's afraid of loss.
- Anakin then tells him that he fears someone close to him will die. It's such a HUGE DEAL to Anakin that he brings it up - not to his master - but the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order. What does this fool tell him? "Let go of everything you fear to lose". In other words, let her die.

Yoda is indirectly responsible for Anakin turning to the dark side - because he really had no alternative.

I thought the whole shtick of Jedi was that they let go of their feelings and become emotionless focused masters of the force? He actually did the opposite of what Yoda said and kept Padme in his heart and mind and let the anger consume him when she died. Let go means to sever ties emotionally does it not?

I think throughout the series it bounces around a bit with the emotions but I thought that was the general idea of it.
 
I wonder how many MRA really flipped out that Rey overpowered Kylo Ren so directly. Daisy Ridley could probably take Adam Driver; she was positively ripped for the film.

I instantly discredit anyone who discounts Rey's physical abilities, as if the character becoming that strong and skilled in a lifetime is less plausible than the actress picking up that strength and those skills in a few months.
 
Again, it would be interesting for a star wars film. Have a character go dark and then redeem themselves by the end.

You seem to be taking heavily into account that she's a girl, and how her going dark side would affect the message of having a female lead and how females view her. I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about narrative stand point where Rey explores the dark side to gain a perfect balance in the force utilizing both sides. That would be great. That could be written to be great. What would it accomplish? In the Star Wars universe, it would define that the Dark can't survive without the Light, and vice versa.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to see Rey go dark side. For a Star Wars film, it would be interesting. The Emperor tried to tempt Luke into being his apprentice, to kill Vader, but Luke declined. What if Rey accepts Snokes temptation and kills Ren? Or incapacitates him and leaves him for dead? Only for in the 3rd movie to have Ren and Rey both be light side and fight against Snoke? It'd be interesting. It would be redemption for Ren, and it would show that Rey has mastery over both sides.

(And as you put it, yes it would be 'cool'. But again, there's nothing wrong with that.)
In context of women and the Star Wars universe, you can't NOT talk about it.
 
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