Cabbagehead
Member
Never said anything about it being exclusive.
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The South Carolina Primary & Nevada Caucuses |Feb 20, 23, 27| Continuing The Calm
- Thread starter NeoXChaos
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Never said anything about it being exclusive.
silvermember
Banned
Then why did you make the comment in first place? Anyways, I am going to back off.
So minorities people are just supposed to believe- you know what? fuck it. I'm so over this election cycle. can't wait for Hillary to get the nomination.
For some perspective here, and I can't speak for every black person in America, so don't take it as such:
I'd rather continue to make $25,000/year for the rest of my life and have the exact same rights, freedoms, and opportunities as everyone else making $25,000/year than make $250,000/year while things remain as they otherwise are.
I'd rather continue to make $25,000/year for the rest of my life and have the exact same rights, freedoms, and opportunities as everyone else making $25,000/year than make $250,000/year while things remain as they otherwise are.
Ogrekiller
Member
Bernie wasn't liberal enough for SC according to the polling. So yes, be damned. His message didn't get across.
No. I'm just refuting this idea that "Hillary Bros." constantly push that he doesn't fight for civil rights. That's just character assassination that is patently false and outright ridiculous.
I'm voting for whoever gets the nom., I've made that clear numerous times. I've also made clear numerous times how I'm over the behavior of certain others as well. So, yes, fuck it from me too. But for similar reason as you on the Bernie side of things.
Bernie says that racial inequality comes from income inequality?
Here is a snippet from his website's page on racial justice:
I've explained why I posted that picture several times already. I'm not insinuating Bernie is a special snowflake for being a civil rights protestor, I'm demonstrating that Bernie is not someone who: "completely ignores racial inequality."
Facts like being the Senator of a state with one of the highest black incarceration rates in the country and refusing to speak with leaders in that state about that issue.
Shining beacon of Civil Rights right here.
Pamplemousse
Member
gutter_trash
Banned
one thing I don't get about Sanders is why did he wait until he was 74 years old?
UltimaPooh
Member
Not entirely no but it is a part of it.
That's not ignoring it. It's at worst using different optics when he should be more specific in addressing the specific race based issues.
silvermember
Banned
Liberal is a spectrum and it is not well define. There is no checkpoint on the liberal scale.
Maybe those minorities consider racial equality far more left on the liberal scale than do whites. Which is logical because although whites can be liberal, very few of them need to concern themselves with racism.
So yes, Bernie can be seen as less liberal depending on what you consider important.
So you are saying bill was less liberal than Bush and Reagan?
If you believe. Cool.
But you would be wrong. So yes bill moved the country to the left of Bush and Reagan.
Here is my theory ,when you made that comment you failed to realize who the previous 2 presidents were.
Late to the party because I was at a wedding last night but WOW Hillart crushed SC, 50 point victory, so happy to see it, wasn't expecting it to be that insane of a blowout. Bodes well for Super Tuesday and hopefully we can get this nomination to bed and start focusing on the general.
It would be more accurate to say that income inequality comes from racial inequality. American social programs were stronger across the board before black people were allowed access to them. Look at the history of public education in the South. When social programs were created, they were typically created and designed to prevent African-Americans from being able to benefit. Look at the GI Bill.
Inasmuch as income inequality has gotten worse since the 60s, a large percentage of that comes from white people accepting the immiseration of other poor white people as an unfortunate side effect of the intended immiseration of black people.
He got some stuff done done before the Republicans took congress in 1994, and he blocked some of the stuff Gingrich wanted to do, but yeah, I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read that.
Triangulation. Dick Morris.
Yea I'm done. I've said time and again that while I do like Sanders and agree with many of his talking points. I'm voting Clinton.
Ogrekiller
Member
It's completely opposite of the conventional narrative and goes to show how poor he is at getting his message out. We're talking 1 in 3 black voters here- the race began the moment he entered a year ago and the fact that he couldn't get his point across despite outspending her is staggering. Maybe pouring all resources into Iowa and New Hampshire wasn't such a great idea.
I'm starting to think a lot of Bernie supporters were not around for the 80s realignment and fallout. Hell, probably not even 2008.
It's good that they're coming around to politics, but History matters. Especially when you're using Republican talking points and argument framing to push points. Just don't.
Yes, the person who runs Bernie's website made a very nice page. Problem is, the man himself, the person we're suppossed to be voting for, consistantly pivots to income inequality any time racial injustice comes up when he's on the stump.
So yes, Bernie SAYS that racial inequality comes from income inequality.
No, it is a symptom of racial inequality, not tbe cause. A black man who makes the same money and has the same education as a white man does not have the same liberties as that white man. Bernie talks about treating a symptom, which means he's ignoring the actual virus.
Why are you making up boogiemen? No one is saying that. Bernie is being criticized for his constant pivoting to class and Wall Street when addressing racial injustices. I don't give a flying fuck if he marched with MLK, what's Bernie going to do today about racial injustice.
Go look up Black Wall Street and what White Supremacy does when black people try to do for themselves.
Bernie invested hugely in South Carolina. He had over ten times the numbers of staffers that Clinton had. I know that now that he's lost the narrative is that he never tried that hard, but make no mistake, Bernie put an enormous effort into winning South Carolina. The problem isn't that people just hadn't heard of him. They didn't like him.
That's just outright false. The dude focuses on multi-facated issues regarding incarceration and has for some time. Education, legal, economic, frankly racist etc. issues impacting the issue have been at the forefrontHe also fought for the rights of wrongly-accused and on softening the cruelty of the prison system itself. And by looking up incarceration rates for just two seconds I can see that your claim of Vermont having one of the highest black incarceration rates is false. Hell, Vermont has some of the lowest incarceration rates across the board in comparison to other states. Is there still an issue? Of course there is. Is it the lowest for rate of black incarceration? Nope. But to claim it's one of the highest is by all data false. Vermont falls in an area many states fall into, 2,200ish range. Then the lowest grouping after that is around 1,600 with what seems like a good 15 or so states. Nothing much lower than that outside of maybe like one outlier. And there are many groupings fa far higher than Vermont's rates.
Sources:
http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_rate
silvermember
Banned
People keep blaming the message, but I don't think it is the case. His message is pretty clear, it seems to me that his message doesn't match what black voters want. Economic equality doesn't protect blacks from systematic racism, you can ask Chris Rock that.
Don't blame the message, Bernie doesn't get it, when it comes to blacks. That's what the voters in SC think. He has had a long time to express his message, so that means his message sucks
Just because you like his message doesn't mean blacks are going to, that's something people have a lot of trouble getting. People might be liberal, but different issues are more important to different people.
gutter_trash
Banned
1.2% of Vermont's population is black
10.7% of Vermont's prison population is black.
The fact that you couldn't even get that right speaks volumes on how oblivious you really are on these issues.
He does pivot back to income inequality a lot. I've never heard him say that racial inequality comes from income inequality and nowhere else though. He's not an imbecile. I'm sure Bernie would acknowledge that some racial inequality comes from, oh, let's say - bad parenting, for example. Many factors contribute to racial inequality:
Genetics, upbringing, education, culture, media, history etcetera. Even income inequality contributes to racial inequality a little.
This is kind of tangential to my original point anyway. My original point was just that Bernie does not: "completely ignore racial inequality." We can move on to discussing the causes of racial inequality though
Pamplemousse
Member
Supporting the war on drugs, gutting welfare, and repealing Glass-Steagall are not liberal things. Clinton was a moderate Republican President.
I'm responding to the false claim that he doesn't do anything today as well. I didn't even mention MLK specifically. I am referring to his total history with civil rights. You're the ones pushing this claim he doesn't care for civil rights. You even admit to it as much right here while you deny it too. Just, ugh.
I'm speaking to the fact of an all state comparison, which is what you claimed. Vermont is frankly one of the lowest when we look at the numbers for black incarceration. As I stated, it falls in a grouping of 2,200. Still not acceptable by any means. But it's nowhere near the highest. And many are in this grouping. The only grouping lower is around 1,600 on average and there are many that are far far higher than the 2,200 grouping as well. And with incarceration across the board, it's one of the lower states period too. I even posted facts backing this up. Your statements are patently false in this regard.
UltimaPooh
Member
Income inequality exacerbates the problem.
I have admitted that Bernie could do better to site specific issues and not bring it back to income inequality... But it is one of the factors in racial inequality. It certainly isn't the only one and it certainly isn't the main cause for racism in the country. I agree.
I would love if Bernie did more himself when it came to the debates but I feel like at this point he's damned if he does damned if he don't when it comes to appeasing this mindset that Bernie Sanders doesn't care about racial inequality or that he ignores it.
I know about Black Wall Street.
I guess it makes sense. Hillaryis44 is and was always actually run by right-wingers who thought they could tank the Democrats' chances of winning by fomenting division within the ranks.
But it's not?
You're putting the problem in front of the cause. Fixing general income inequality does nothing to fix racial inequality because blacks and hispanics would STILL be afforded less opportunities than whites.
Ogrekiller
Member
So who was the most liberal Democratic president in the last 50 years then?
silvermember
Banned
It seems you don't understand what is being argued.
We haven't had liberal president since possibly Jimmy Carter.
We have had presidents who are LEFT of of the center.
Everything you said is true, bill wouldn't be called a pure liberal neither would Obama. Or both of them are on the lower spectrum of liberal.
The statement was: Bill moved the country to the left and the answer is yes. That's undisputed. Left doesn't mean he was a full hard on liberal, it means he wasn't entirely conservative.
I'm going to speak slowly and use small words.
In America in general, the percentage of blacks in the prison population is 3 times larger than in the general population.
In Vermont, it is ten times larger.
This is an insane amount of over representation in the prison population and one of the highest in the country. This is what I am talking qbout. The fact that you can't seem to comprehend this tells me I shouldn't bother wasting time with you. You, ironically, have this in common with your candidate.
Pamplemousse
Member
Probably LBJ maybe Carter. I'd have to read up more on Carter, though.
Ogrekiller
Member
Ah yes, the warmonger and the one termer who endorsed Mitt in 2012 and gave us Reagan.
lol, it's amazing people still don't understand why per-capita is the most relevant metric when discussing statistics.
Pamplemousse
Member
Keeping the country center-right is not moving us left. This thread is hilarious.
Ah, thanks for insulting me and not looking at the facts of the matter. Just what I expect of "Hillary Bros." at this point. Not that I haven't already been insulted endlessly or told I can't be a true Democrat/true x minority by Hillary Bros. Now you just want to outright say I'm stupid. Thanks.
I have not denied that black incarceration is a problem. I am refuting your claim that Vermont has the highest among all states. The facts do not back your claim. And the claim you made that Bernie did nothing either is also patently false as I already demonstrated. I even posted the facts on this matter and you still repeat these blatant falsehoods.
I am tired of the in-fighting constantly being pushed by Hillary supporters. I like both candidates, will vote for either and want all the same things. Geezus.
Ogrekiller
Member
Moving the country to center right from hard right under Reagan is the very definition of moving left.
Bill Clinton certainly was a liberal in the context of American politics in the 80/90's. However, on balance, he did not move the country to the left. The entire political discourse of the U.S. shifted to the right in the 80's and 90's. Bill Clinton moved along with that shift. He was part of a process that redefined what it meant to be liberal/progressive/left wing in this country in a rightward direction. In terms of policies, more left wing policies remained in place during the 1994-2000 period than if the Republicans had controlled all three branches of government, but that is not the same thing as moving the country to the left.
VendettaRed07
Member
Carter was more liberal regarding to where the political spectrum was at the time than Clinton, Obama and Hillary if she wins.
We got Reagan because he was too far left and Carter's image as a Liberal who enacted terrible far left policies.
Pamplemousse
Member
With every President since Nixon, we've been moving Right. Nice try, though.
silvermember
Banned
It is only hilarious because you don't seem to know the meaning of words.
So let me paint you a picture.
0........5.6....9.10. Not drawn to scale.
Moving from 9 to a 5 or 6, means moving to the left which is true. Unless you believe he moved to 10?
The links you posted have literally nothing to do with my statement, that's why I'm not bothering addressing them. What other states have a black prison population that is 10 times higher than its general black population. The fact that you somehow cannot separate "general incarceration rate" and "black incarceration rate" is a poor reflection on you and your candidate.
The links I posted literally have separate rates for black incarceration for every. single. state.
This bears repeating for the umpteenth time:
I am tired of the in-fighting constantly being pushed by Hillary supporters. I like both candidates, will vote for either and want all the same things. What I tire of are the blatant lies and insults constantly spread to demean anyone who supports Bernie foremost. Geezus.
You think Obama moved us to the right?
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