Support NeoGAF

[Sorian]

Because for all we know, yes, Camjo probably still is town right now like he says. I believe that it was a townie mistake. But, Sorian adamantly standing against any other possibilities is worrisome. If Camjo is a neutral who needs to be flipped, it benefits mafia to leave him alive because once he starts killing (if that prediction of mine is true), there are more town targets than there are mafia targets. He'll be helping mafia dwindle down town numbers and make their win easier.

And if Camjo is town, then it benefits mafia to convince town to mislynch on him because not having to waste time on a mayor that has been used up and is self claiming to also be bulletproof would be a great use of the day.

Even your idea for the neutral would be a can of worms that mafia doesn't want to open. Take a look at our win condition again. It just says to kill all villains. Heroes vs. villians, town vs. scum as far as I can tell. Killing neutrals is not on our agenda to win (though it may prove to be more helpful, we're unable to say at the moment). That means a Camjo SK wouldn't be a survivor win condition, he would be doing something else. Your flavor makes the most sense, he would be hunting the joker. So sure, he might end up cutting down more town than scum but he would have active interest in hunting scum, he would effectively be a town vig but with a more focused win condition.

 

[roytheone]

coppanuva (0)
sorian 907 (1024)

camjo-z (0)
launchpadmcq 909 (1247)

fluxwavez (3)
fireblend 914
xamtheking 1101
weemadarthur 1160 (1229)
trigger 1171

pop-o-matic (1)
fluxwavez 917

karu (0)
sorian 1024 (1232)

karkador (1)
sorian 1232

sorian (2)
karkador 1246
launchpadmcq 1247

9 votes for majority!

 

[Karkador]

What's the purpose of voting Sorian over Camjo?

The amount of effort Sorian is putting into swerving the topic away from what happened with D1 is arguably weirder than whatever Camjo did. Camjo, we can get back to. Right now, I'd rather press Sorian.

 

[Trigger]

UNVOTE

No point in voting for someone who's gone.

So, between day one and two, you've started to think the batcomputer is a scumtell?

Yeah, I was giving Kark the benefit of a doubt. However he hasn't made much use of it in a way that helps town. His evasiveness about the issue isn't helping.

 

[Sorian]

The amount of effort Sorian is putting into swerving the topic away from what happened with D1 is arguably weirder than whatever Camjo did. Camjo, we can get back to. Right now, I'd rather press Sorian.

There are a bunch of other things to it? Like what? Either Camjo is scum and he overrode to protect teammates or he is town/neutral and he overrode because of bad reasoning/for the lolz. There is literally nothing else here, no one else was interested enough in Flame to be voting for him in the last hour, the vote was thrown out completely in regards to Topo/Flux. Very rarely can you say that a lynch decision falls squarely on one person because usually a mayor at least goes for someone that was up for discussion but here we are, we can say yesterday's lynch was all 100% Camjo.

So that leaves us with a binary, Camjo is scum or he is not scum (lumping neutral in with not scum because the point here is that the override wouldn't be protecting a known teammate), a scum mayor is dumb so yeah "the odds" also known as "good game design" are pretty apparent here.

I'll concede one thing though because writing this made me realize a single blind spot. He could still be town while overriding to protect a teammate if Flux was in a mason or lover's relationship with him. That's at least a believable role but that should have been brought up yesterday when Flux was about to get chopped in half imo or would have been brought up today when Camjo explained his actions for yesterday.

Kark, I know you don't like to answer questions so I'll just quote myself again, maybe you'll actually answer it this time. What is this "bunch of other things to it" that you are saying there is to day 1 and what happened at the end? Give me anything you want, just an example, doesn't matter how crazy it is. The fact is there isn't much there and yes, I would like to swerve the topic at scum hunting while you wanted to leave it on the day 1 dead end. That's been your theme the entire game. Sitting at dead ends with unanswered questions. At first I attributed it to Kark being Kark but this is a real pattern. You're derailing where you can on purpose.

 

[Karkador]

Kark, I know you don't like to answer questions so I'll just quote myself again, maybe you'll actually answer it this time. What is this "bunch of other things to it" that you are saying there is to day 1 and what happened at the end? Give me anything you want, just an example, doesn't matter how crazy it is. The fact is there isn't much there and yes, I would like to swerve the topic at scum hunting while you wanted to leave it on the day 1 dead end. That's been your theme the entire game. Sitting at dead ends with unanswered questions. At first I attributed it to Kark being Kark but this is a real pattern. You're derailing where you can on purpose.

I defy your claim that what happened in D1 is a dead end.

Camjo starts D1 with an override power. He votes on 4 players. Right before the Day ends, he uses his override power on a 5th player that he paid no mind to before. He could have gone for anyone on his personal Batcomputer list, but he goes for Some Guy. This simple fact doesn't sound like something worth questioning?

Okay, we'll look closer.

One of the players Camjo voted, El Topo, was part of the two players being contested at the end of Day 1 - Topo and Flux. While Flux goes down as having won the most votes at the end of the day, the truth is that the vote got tied and retied quickly enough for people to get desperate and flail about. So whether Camjo was trying to save Flux or Topo at the end is up for discussion.


But no, you'd rather ignore this point?

Okay, let's go further.


Camjo, a mere 16 posts before using his override, votes on El Topo. Let me remind you of the post, in case you missed it among all of yours:

Nah. This drip-feeding right before his own lynch is bullshit. He literally has nothing to lose by claiming but he wants to play games?

VOTE: El Topo

Wimps.

Does this sound like a player who's about to drop an override on Flame_AC? Because he did, 12 posts later.

Still not enough there to question?

Okay, here's more.

El Topo roleclaimed to save himself at the end of D1, then gives a tidy explanation at the start of D2. El Topo, the guy Camjo potential saved from a lynch with that senseless override. El Topo, the guy Camjo left a token vote on, the way mafia tends to do when they want to hide in a vote.


Do you need anymore?

We have a list of other votes to pour through related to the day-end vote and the override decision, but you want to claim it's all a dead-end.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Camjo:

How long were you planning on using the override? If the votes had strongly been on either solely Topo or solely Flux (like 6-2 or something), would you have overridden?

I don't know if this post is still relevant, but I'll answer it anyway: I decided to use it not too long before deadline. If Topo hadn't claimed last minute or if one of them had consistently held a majority of the vote, I probably wouldn't have used it. But onto more IMPORTANT matters!

Let me see if I follow what you're saying here. Because I'm scum, I put SkyOdin on a fake Batcomputer scumlist - then, at night, I willfully decided with my scumfriends to kill SkyOdin, so that my Batcomputer scumlist looks false.

Is that the thought you're trying to get across?

Why are you responding to my question with another question? What was up with the Batcomputer fakeclaim shit? I don't think that's a particularly hard question to answer, and yet you've completely ignored it for the past ~4 hours that I've been gone. You're so concerned with whether or not I'm lying, but you haven't said a word about your proven lie. You're trying to play defense by going on offense and it's painfully transparent. Now you've chosen to start pressing Sorian as well for whatever reason. I have no clue if Sorian is town or not, and in fact I've been wary of him due to his huge activity compared to just about everyone else, but I think it's safe to say that he hasn't done anything particularly anti-town so far. Yet here you are, chasing him for holding the CONTROVERSIAL opinion that someone with a mayor power is not mafia. And now it's time for that part of the show where I bring up your contradictions!

Lol, Sorian, please. You're free to call "anti-town" on whatever you want, but this insistence that it MUST be a mayor and an override MUST be Town is just trying to hold down the conversation. GAFIA has had a scum override before. Do try to keep up.

You initially bring up the fact that there have been mafia-aligned mayors in Gafia games before, but when Sorian explains the circumstances surrounding that role, suddenly it's metagaming shit, he's not a moderator, blah blah blah.

Now, if you're locked out of your normal mode of communication with Camjo, I can understand why you're doing this.

Here you swallow El Topo's Oracle claim wholesale by suggesting that Sorian and I are maf who've been chat bombed, even though his claim is entirely unprovable. In fact, one would think you'd be going even harder after him, since I at least had a demonstrable power that's rarely maf-sided, but that hasn't been the case.

And now Launchpad is joining you on this crusade, which is still bizarre considering a killing neutral (that doesn't even exist at the moment) can be spun positively just as much as it can be spun negatively. Say mafia tries to kill me tomorrow. Cop outs on Day 3, reveals he has two mafia reports. Town lynches one, the report is true. Now I get to use my nightkill on another one. Wow, town has practically won already! You don't hear that narrative though, you just hear how I'm going to suddenly become a total fucking idiot, ignore my supposed win condition of trying to kill the Joker, and off a bunch of townies to lose the game.

 

[Karu]

Great slap fight, guys!

Well, for the sake of avoiding shenanigans, and also because I need to drive for more than half an hour, I'll be sitting the rest of this one out and leave my vote on Flux. I'm keeping my eye on Kark and Mazre after today.

This is TL's last post yesterday... what's your opinion on Kark and Mazre now - the latter also still missing.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Oh, I totally forgot the Kark vote I was going to put in that post

VOTE: Karkador

And this time that vote is not a joke, I can assure you.

 

[Sorian]

I defy your claim that what happened in D1 is a dead end.

Camjo starts D1 with an override power. He votes on 4 players. Right before the Day ends, he uses his override power on a 5th player that he paid no mind to before. He could have gone for anyone on his personal Batcomputer list, but he goes for Some Guy. This simple fact doesn't sound like something worth questioning?

Okay, we'll look closer.

One of the players Camjo voted, El Topo, was part of the two players being contested at the end of Day 1 - Topo and Flux. While Flux goes down as having won the most votes at the end of the day, the truth is that the vote got tied and retied quickly enough for people to get desperate and flail about. So whether Camjo was trying to save Flux or Topo at the end is up for discussion.


But no, you'd rather ignore this point?

Okay, let's go further.


Camjo, a mere 16 posts before using his override, votes on El Topo. Let me remind you of the post, in case you missed it among all of yours:



Does this sound like a player who's about to drop an override on Flame_AC? Because he did, 12 posts later.

Still not enough there to question?

Okay, here's more.

El Topo roleclaimed to save himself at the end of D1, then gives a tidy explanation at the start of D2. El Topo, the guy Camjo potential saved from a lynch with that senseless override. El Topo, the guy Camjo left a token vote on, the way mafia tends to do when they want to hide in a vote.


Do you need anymore?

We have a list of other votes to pour through related to the day-end vote and the override decision, but you want to claim it's all a dead-end.

Did I say it was all a dead end? My issue was this constant narrowing in on Camjo. When we have this post floating around:

As for my second power, roughly paraphrased from my PM: "If you get nightkilled... well, some finales can become new starts." That's some Red Hood resurrection shit, baby! I don’t know what else it entails cuz it wasn't explained at all, but for now I’m just going to consider myself a 1-shot Bulletproof, hence why I wanted doc to go elsewhere and recommended vig not waste their time in case of any adverse side-effects. And before anyone gets concerned about me possibly being a maf recruitable, I looked up Red Hood and he seems to be more of an anti-hero than a villain, so it seems pretty unlikely. This clear ain't going anywhere unless mafia wants to waste two nights taking me out.

I can see scum becoming desperate to find what they can to push Camjo out by day vote instead of night kill especially if Topo is telling the truth and they aren't in contact. But hey, that's all an interesting post you put up there, looks to me like you find Topo to be the liar in there so why are you trying to test Camjo? Correct me if I'm wrong but the crux of that argument is that Camjo did an override to protect his teammate Topo? But here you are trying to bang in Camjo's door, who is still a verified overrider, and not Topo's who....is not verified in any way and is probably on scum watch for a good chunk of the players in here.

Scum would want to day lynch Camjo, he claims to either be bulletproof or to be some kind of Pandora's box that is only opened on night kill and, if this weren't bizarro land, has used a power that equates to confirmed town in pretty much all games. In the story you told above, town would want to lynch Topo, an unverifiable power, sketchy role claim that was dragged out in the last moments of the day, a clean cut post for day start assisting in that unverifiable claim, small bits about the post, only being posted after specific questions are asked. And which person were you going for Kark? Topo or Camjo? Your scum trying to flip this so you can remove Camjo without having to worry about whatever the hell the retaliation to night kill might be.

 

[TL21xx]

This is TL's last post yesterday... what's your opinion on Kark and Mazre now - the latter also still missing.

That's about my opinion on Mazre right now. Need to hear more from him. If not, well... I think that's all that needs to be said.

As for Kark, he has been pressing Sorian really hard, and while I'm glad someone is doing that (not because I believe that he's scum, but because he's one of the most vocal players we have, and it would be bad if he didn't get questioned), he is also making way too much out of Camjo's role claim, and that does rub me the wrong way. There is literally nothing we can do about it in this day phase unless we want to take him out now. And I've made my stance on how to handle the Camjo situation crystal clear, I think. And in case I haven't I'll say it again: leave him be, we can come back to him in a couple of days.

So as of right now, I have no issue leaving my vote here for the time being.

Vote: Karkador

I need more from Kark that doesn't involve the Camjo situation, that horse corpse is starting to stink the thread up.

 

[Karkador]

I don't know if this post is still relevant, but I'll answer it anyway: I decided to use it not too long before deadline. If Topo hadn't claimed last minute or if one of them had consistently held a majority of the vote, I probably wouldn't have used it. But onto more IMPORTANT matters!

This addresses nothing about why you had four votes down, but lynched a 5th.

Why are you responding to my question with another question?

I was making sure I got your statement right. So why are you doing the same?

What was up with the Batcomputer fakeclaim shit? I don't think that's a particularly hard question to answer, and yet you've completely ignored it for the past ~4 hours that I've been gone.

I've attempted to answer it already, and that's all I'm going to say. If a player is upset or nervous because they're on a list, I want to know why.

You're so concerned with whether or not I'm lying, but you haven't said a word about your proven lie.

Really step back and consider what you're calling a "lie" before you make these claims. I posted a list in the thread. Many people post many lists in these threads. I've called you out on substance, while you're dwelling on something that you're meant to dwell on.

You're trying to play defense by going on offense and it's painfully transparent. Now you've chosen to start pressing Sorian as well for whatever reason. I have no clue if Sorian is town or not, and in fact I've been wary of him due to his huge activity compared to just about everyone else, but I think it's safe to say that he hasn't done anything particularly anti-town so far.

I've clearly stated my reasons. I want to talk about you and D1, and Sorian is bent on not letting us. It's remarkable how you two are covering for each other. It's mind-boggling how you two are trying to say that stifling discussion about a Big Deal is "not anti-Town".

Yet here you are, chasing him for holding the CONTROVERSIAL opinion that someone with a mayor power is not mafia. And now it's time for that part of the show where I bring up your contradictions!

Let's be perfectly clear for the folks at home: You're not a Mayor. You've already admitted this much. Similarly, a Mayor would not have used their power the way you did. If "scum Mayor" sounds broken to you, "Bulletproof Mayor" or "Mayor with some hidden other purpose" sound just about as senseless.



You initially bring up the fact that there have been mafia-aligned mayors in Gafia games before, but when Sorian explains the circumstances surrounding that role, suddenly it's metagaming shit, he's not a moderator, blah blah blah.[/quote]

I was trying to talk him down from the tree with his own rhetoric. I have not relied on nearly as much metagame chicanery as Sorian.

Here you swallow El Topo's Oracle claim wholesale by suggesting that Sorian and I are maf who've been chat bombed, even though his claim is entirely unprovable. In fact, one would think you'd be going even harder after him, since I at least had a demonstrable power that's rarely maf-sided, but that hasn't been the case.

I'm considering both situations (where Topo is or isn't lying). I can't lynch you all at once. And again, trying to justify yourself with metagame reasoning means nothing. "Rarely maf-sided" means nothing right now. You're going to have to try much harder than that.

And now Launchpad is joining you on this crusade, which is still bizarre considering a killing neutral (that doesn't even exist at the moment) can be spun positively just as much as it can be spun negatively.

The fact that Sorian is running with it doesn't bode well for that argument.

Say mafia tries to kill me tomorrow.

And why didn't they try to kill you last night? Did you get any sort of thing thrown at you?

Cop outs on Day 3, reveals he has two mafia reports. Town lynches one, the report is true. Now I get to use my nightkill on another one. Wow, town has practically won already! You don't hear that narrative though, you just hear how I'm going to suddenly become a total fucking idiot, ignore my supposed win condition of trying to kill the Joker, and off a bunch of townies to lose the game.

You may be a neutral that scum figures is advantageous to leave alive for now. Or, you're just scum. You might even be Town; I can't see myself going along with your vote after your D1 plays.

 

[Sorian]

Camjo isn't a mayor?

Hey Roy, I think you fucked up the flips yesterday. Tag Flame back in and give us Flux's role flip instead.

 

[Sorian]

The fact that Sorian is running with it doesn't bode well for that argument.

And why didn't they try to kill you last night? Did you get any sort of thing thrown at you?

I'm running with it? More like I'm mildly considering it? I'm certainly giving it more credence then a scum mayor. At least Launch presented something crazy that could actually exist in this climate.

I do have a question of something I noticed though. Let's go with Occam's razor and assume that scum killed Sky (because for all we know two kills were attempted last night and one failed, at least a possibility with what weemad pressed on Karu earlier today). Why do you think scum targeted Sky (this question is to Kark)?

 

[Karkador]

Camjo isn't a mayor?

Hey Roy, I think you fucked up the flips yesterday. Tag Flame back in and give us Flux's role flip instead.

I'm gonna take this as a concession that you have no argument to make.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Either one or both of you guys have your heads up your asses, Sorian and Camjo.

Spoiler

With the assumption that whoever doesn't is scum..

Why are you responding to my question with another question? What was up with the Batcomputer fakeclaim shit? I don't think that's a particularly hard question to answer, and yet you've completely ignored it for the past ~4 hours that I've been gone. You're so concerned with whether or not I'm lying, but you haven't said a word about your proven lie. You're trying to play defense by going on offense and it's painfully transparent. Now you've chosen to start pressing Sorian as well for whatever reason. I have no clue if Sorian is town or not, and in fact I've been wary of him due to his huge activity compared to just about everyone else, but I think it's safe to say that he hasn't done anything particularly anti-town so far. Yet here you are, chasing him for holding the CONTROVERSIAL opinion that someone with a mayor power is not mafia. And now it's time for that part of the show where I bring up your contradictions!

The only reason you are backing Sorian is because he's trying to divert attention from you. Also, I don't see where Karkador lied. Did he claim something? Did he saying "this is my power role, this is what I can do"? Because I'd love to see that in writing.

And obviously, you're being supportive of his opinion, when it involves completely overlooking you and saying you're above suspicion. How very convenient.

Here you swallow El Topo's Oracle claim wholesale by suggesting that Sorian and I are maf who've been chat bombed, even though his claim is entirely unprovable. In fact, one would think you'd be going even harder after him, since I at least had a demonstrable power that's rarely maf-sided, but that hasn't been the case.

If you guys stopped acting like scummy fucks, maybe we could actually get down to Topo's roleclaim.

And now Launchpad is joining you on this crusade, which is still bizarre considering a killing neutral (that doesn't even exist at the moment) can be spun positively just as much as it can be spun negatively. Say mafia tries to kill me tomorrow. Cop outs on Day 3, reveals he has two mafia reports. Town lynches one, the report is true. Now I get to use my nightkill on another one. Wow, town has practically won already! You don't hear that narrative though, you just hear how I'm going to suddenly become a total fucking idiot, ignore my supposed win condition of trying to kill the Joker, and off a bunch of townies to lose the game.

I was the one who originally raised the point that you were suspicious as fuck. How am I the one joining the crusade? I am not ready to lynch you, but you and Sorian are exceedingly dense, and are very clearly not acting in town's favor.

But thanks, you just admitted what I had theorized, thanks for that. I'm sorry, but if you think having another killing role is implicitly good for town, you are shortsighted as fuck. I don't care what your endgame is; I've seen would-be alliances turn sideways because town trusted a neutral too eagerly and without questioning their motivation. I don't know anything about your role; if I can help it, I am not going to let you run free killing off townies while you finally get to your target.

Did I say it was all a dead end? My issue was this constant narrowing in on Camjo.

Who the fuck is narrowing in on anyone? We're talking here. Karkador didn't even put a vote down on Camjo. What are you even saying?

I can see scum becoming desperate to find what they can to push Camjo out by day vote instead of night kill especially if Topo is telling the truth and they aren't in contact. But hey, that's all an interesting post you put up there, looks to me like you find Topo to be the liar in there so why are you trying to test Camjo? Correct me if I'm wrong but the crux of that argument is that Camjo did an override to protect his teammate Topo? But here you are trying to bang in Camjo's door, who is still a verified overrider, and not Topo's who....is not verified in any way and is probably on scum watch for a good chunk of the players in here.

Scum would want to day lynch Camjo, he claims to either be bulletproof or to be some kind of Pandora's box that is only opened on night kill and, if this weren't bizarro land, has used a power that equates to confirmed town in pretty much all games. In the story you told above, town would want to lynch Topo, an unverifiable power, sketchy role claim that was dragged out in the last moments of the day, a clean cut post for day start assisting in that unverifiable claim, small bits about the post, only being posted after specific questions are asked. And which person were you going for Kark? Topo or Camjo? Your scum trying to flip this so you can remove Camjo without having to worry about whatever the hell the retaliation to night kill might be.

Scum can use Camjo to their advantage, as well. This is a double-edged sword. How are you not seeing this, Sorian? I have to believe that you are straight up just ignoring the possibility that Camjo turns against us. Who is to say his goal is to kill a specific scum in the first place, anyway? It could be to kill Batman, who is town! It would still match up with the lore. You're ready to dismiss this as a nonissue, when it clearly is a big issue. You don't know enough about this role to make a judgement that it's irrelevant and worth ignoring.

 

[Sorian]

I'm gonna take this as a concession that you have no argument to make.

Most of that post isn't really anything for me to argue. He is obviously a mayor and there is no reason to really engage you past that on that point. If you really want me to, you are comparing alignments to modifiers. He is obviously a mayor, he had an override command that was accepted publicly by the moderator. He is claiming to have a modifier of some sort which I don't care about at the present time because the alignment of a mayor is town and when it isn't, great strides have to be given to balance it. As far as an argument to make, it's up in post 1260.

 

[Karkador]

I do have a question of something I noticed though. Let's go with Occam's razor and assume that scum killed Sky (because for all we know two kills were attempted last night and one failed, at least a possibility with what weemad pressed on Karu earlier today). Why do you think scum targeted Sky (this question is to Kark)?

Scum may have targeted Sky because I was the only one who voted on them, or maybe there was no reason. Why do you ask?

 

[Camjo-Z]

This addresses nothing about why you had four votes down, but lynched a 5th.

I've attempted to answer it already, and that's all I'm going to say. If a player is upset or nervous because they're on a list, I want to know why. Really step back and consider what you're calling a "lie" before you make these claims. I posted a list in the thread. Many people post many lists in these threads. I've called you out on substance, while you're dwelling on something that you're meant to dwell on.

And why didn't they try to kill you last night? Did you get any sort of thing thrown at you?

1. I literally already answered earlier today when you asked that exact same question. Maybe if you actually read the post, you'd know this.

2. No thanks, not interested in scrounging for more breadcrumbs. I'd rather you just straight up say what it was all about. Many people make lists, but only you have tried to claim yours is anything more than a simple read list. You act like you're just trying to use it as some gambit to get reads like your cop claim in Love Boat, but you seem to have forgotten that you're not a clear who's above scrutiny this time.

3. No, because mafia decided not to call my bluff. I was fine either way. If they tried to kill me, I get some answers about the Red Hood stuff. If they don't, I get to explain the situation and clear myself the next day.

Whatever you think may happen in the future, I'm not a neutral yet, and there are ACTUAL mafia currently in the game, so anybody focusing on "what-ifs" instead of "what IS" is not helping town.

The only reason you are backing Sorian is because he's trying to divert attention from you. Also, I don't see where Karkador lied. Did he claim something? Did he saying "this is my power role, this is what I can do"? Because I'd love to see that in writing.

And obviously, you're being supportive of his opinion, when it involves completely overlooking you and saying you're above suspicion. How very convenient.

Obviously I'm supportive of his opinion, because your opinion is that I should die today. And Karkador lied by saying his list was not a read list, implying that it is based in some sort of power. Yet based on SkyOdin's flip, the list was wrong. Ergo, he was undeniably lying.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Obviously I'm supportive of his opinion, because your opinion is that I should die today.

I have very explicitly stated that I don't want to kill you today. How many times do I have to type this before someone actually reads it?

And Karkador lied by saying his list was not a read list, implying that it is based in some sort of power. Yet based on SkyOdin's flip, the list was wrong. Ergo, he was undeniably lying.

Show me where he implied this and what he implied the list meant.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I have very explicitly stated that I don't want to kill you today. How many times do I have to type this before someone actually reads it?



Show me where he implied this and what he implied the list meant.

I have to leave now so I will do all the quoting stuff when I get back, but if you say you don't want to kill me today, then you should probably stop posting about this subject and figure out who we should lynch instead.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I have to leave now so I will do all the quoting stuff when I get back, but if you say you don't want to kill me today, then you should probably stop posting about this subject and figure out who we should lynch instead.

Kark and Sorian are the ones that have been digging this back up again, and Sorian's behavior has been increasingly suspicious because he's usually open-minded and not so quick to dismiss plausible explanations. I think he's a good place to start.

 

[weemadarthur]

Maybe camjo just made up that whole night kill = new start flavor to try not to be the biggest mafia target. Until there is further evidence that camjo hasn't become a useless (power wise) confirmed town member, I wouldn't pick him for a lynch over active scum.

I know I want to hear some actual gameplay from Mazre.

 

[Sorian]

Who the fuck is narrowing in on anyone? We're talking here. Karkador didn't even put a vote down on Camjo. What are you even saying?

Scum can use Camjo to their advantage, as well. This is a double-edged sword. How are you not seeing this, Sorian? I have to believe that you are straight up just ignoring the possibility that Camjo turns against us. Who is to say his goal is to kill a specific scum in the first place, anyway? It could be to kill Batman, who is town! It would still match up with the lore. You're ready to dismiss this as a nonissue, when it clearly is a big issue. You don't know enough about this role to make a judgement that it's irrelevant and worth ignoring.

Have you watched Kark's play in this game? Like really sat down and read the thread all the way through yet? Kark's posting style is vague musings and picking and choosing what posts to respond to. Kark appeared to me to be focusing in on Camjo for the kill, I still think he is/was (maybe I distracted him, god knows my flip would actually be useful unlike the flip that will tell us that Camjo can override).

Of course a neutral can turn against us, but guess what Launch, your idea is still a crackpot theory. It's possible, more so than the scum mayor being pushed but it's still unlikely. I can random theorize too. Batman is the town vigilante and scum team has Joker on it. Whichever attempts to kill Camjo changes him to a neutral with the goal of getting revenge either on Batman or on Joker, whichever is applicable. There's a role, it's a pretty good one, I might keep that in my pocket for a future game but is that what we want to be chasing today? We've already fallen deep into this hole so who knows if we will come back up and it's probably my fault, I should have just waited because Kark probably would have gotten distracted anyway if he was town, my issue is that I don't know if he is town or not. Camjo is very clearly a come back in a day or two case. Without a missed kill, this already unlikely theory doesn't even have the slightest bit of evidence with it. I want to move on, yes, I say that 100% because I think we are sitting in garbage right now while scum laughs in a corner or maybe I'm lucky and Kark really got greedy with this situation.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Have you watched Kark's play in this game? Like really sat down and read the thread all the way through yet? Kark's posting style is vague musings and picking and choosing what posts to respond to. Kark appeared to me to be focusing in on Camjo for the kill, I still think he is/was (maybe I distracted him, god knows my flip would actually be useful unlike the flip that will tell us that Camjo can override).

Of course a neutral can turn against us, but guess what Launch, your idea is still a crackpot theory. It's possible, more so than the scum mayor being pushed but it's still unlikely. I can random theorize too. Batman is the town vigilante and scum team has Joker on it. Whichever attempts to kill Camjo changes him to a neutral with the goal of getting revenge either on Batman or on Joker, whichever is applicable. There's a role, it's a pretty good one, I might keep that in my pocket for a future game but is that what we want to be chasing today? We've already fallen deep into this hole so who knows if we will come back up and it's probably my fault, I should have just waited because Kark probably would have gotten distracted anyway if he was town, my issue is that I don't know if he is town or not. Camjo is very clearly a come back in a day or two case. Without a missed kill, this already unlikely theory doesn't even have the slightest bit of evidence with it. I want to move on, yes, I say that 100% because I think we are sitting in garbage right now while scum laughs in a corner or maybe I'm lucky and Kark really got greedy with this situation.

I've been watching Kark for awhile already and I don't see him acting altogether that much differently than usual. But ok, fine, should we lynch Kark then? Is that what you're after?

Also, did you miss the part where Camjo said that's what his role is?

And now Launchpad is joining you on this crusade, which is still bizarre considering a killing neutral (that doesn't even exist at the moment) can be spun positively just as much as it can be spun negatively. Say mafia tries to kill me tomorrow. Cop outs on Day 3, reveals he has two mafia reports. Town lynches one, the report is true. Now I get to use my nightkill on another one. Wow, town has practically won already! You don't hear that narrative though, you just hear how I'm going to suddenly become a total fucking idiot, ignore my supposed win condition of trying to kill the Joker, and off a bunch of townies to lose the game.

 

[Karkador]

Most of that post isn't really anything for me to argue. He is obviously a mayor and there is no reason to really engage you past that on that point. If you really want me to, you are comparing alignments to modifiers. He is obviously a mayor, he had an override command that was accepted publicly by the moderator. He is claiming to have a modifier of some sort which I don't care about at the present time because the alignment of a mayor is town and when it isn't, great strides have to be given to balance it. As far as an argument to make, it's up in post 1260.

It's really annoying of you to keep doing this, but okay - at Sorian's behest, we'll play the meta-game.

• A Mayor typically negates a vote and extends the day, not straight-up kill a guy. That's closer to a DayVig than a Mayor.
  
• Your argument that the Dangan scum override was unbalanced IS largely because it revealed the mafia player's alignment, not because it killed a guy. A mafia player using an override isn't senseless. What is senseless is revealing the alignment, as that 1-for-1 doesn't make sense in many situations for mafia. (Sorry Launch)
  
• This game is supposed to be a Crab Scale 6 or 7. "Non-traditional roles" in either case. You really want to sit there and insist that we're dealing with a regular Mayor? It's meaningless. You're insisting that Camjo is Town because a regular Mayor is Town, but we're playing in a game that is, by the mod's word, not that regular.

 

[Sorian]

Scum may have targeted Sky because I was the only one who voted on them, or maybe there was no reason. Why do you ask?

Because I saw these two posts and thought it was convenient:

Karkador.

Sorry peeps.

Your batcomputer gave a result of four bolded names. One of those names is now dead and verified as a town member. Does the batcomputer have anything to say regarding the other three bolded names?

Now that that's cleared up, here's a question for you: what was with all the Batman fakeclaiming? Because last I checked you had SkyOdin on your "Batcomputer scum list" and he's a townie, yet you insisted it was not a simple read list. So basically, you've been feeding town blatantly false information and claiming a power that you don't actually have. Is there a reason you shouldn't be lynched today?

Which puts me at crossroads with you in particular. These bring up an interesting point. I looked back on Sky a bit and he was fairly innocuous the whole first day. Vocal enough to not be considered inactive but you were still pushing on him a bit. He doesn't seem like a good scum kill to me, if you're not scum then they would probably just assume you would tunnel in more since he seemed to be your last hook before the final hours. So why kill him? Well he is on your bolded list of four scum. What if you did actually have a scum in there and they wanted to show everyone that someone on the list was town which would negate the rest of the list as verified non-sense? (I'm aware I say this as one of the bolded names)

Or you are just scum which is entirely plausible with how you've been playing so far, thus the crossroad.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Also, did you miss the part where Camjo said that's what his role is?

Just want to mention before you get too excited that that was a hypothetical based on your theory. I don't know what happens when I get night killed.

 

[Coppanuva]

I don't know if this post is still relevant, but I'll answer it anyway: I decided to use it not too long before deadline. If Topo hadn't claimed last minute or if one of them had consistently held a majority of the vote, I probably wouldn't have used it. But onto more IMPORTANT matters!

Thanks for the answer, I think it still could be. The reason I was asking was because I saw Kark post this:

I'd call the circumstances of D1 override anti-Town, at least.

Which stood out to me, since he was one of the main reasons for the circumstances on D1 being what they were. The result of it being anti-town? I could buy that argument. It does, however, seem hypocritical for Kark to claim the circumstances surrounding its use were anti-town when he was part of the reason they were what they were.

 

[Sorian]

I've been watching Kark for awhile already and I don't see him acting altogether that much differently than usual. But ok, fine, should we lynch Kark then? Is that what you're after?

Also, did you miss the part where Camjo said that's what his role is?

See my post above on Kark, it's either/or with Kark being scum or scum being in that list of his from my perspective.

Also, I'm pretty sure Camjo is using your example to talk back to you? If that is him actually claim truth to his role, he should say that now.

It's really annoying of you to keep doing this, but okay - at Sorian's behest, we'll play the meta-game.

• A Mayor typically negates a vote and extends the day, not straight-up kill a guy. That's closer to a DayVig than a Mayor.
  
• Your argument that the Dangan scum override was unbalanced IS largely because it revealed the mafia player's alignment, not because it killed a guy. A mafia player using an override isn't senseless. What is senseless is revealing the alignment, as that 1-for-1 doesn't make sense in many situations for mafia. (Sorry Launch)

• 
  
  I removed your last point because we aren't doing the crab scale garbage. That shit was a mistake and has no place in the actual game.
  
  Your arguing a weird semantic here. I'm obviously talking about the classical role Governor which is commonly referred to as a mayor as well. Someone else used mayor early on to describe it and I think I've just been running with it for consistency. Gafia has a certain climate, we've obviously never used the real version of a governor that just negates the kill and ends the day in no lynch but the premise is still the same. The day ends when the governor speaks, not sure what you are on about with the day continuing.
  
  A scum aligned mayor is probably just bad game design anyway (Sorry Launch) but what you are saying is wrong. It's not a 1-to-1 tradeoff in the case of danganronpa back in the day. It's a way for the player to have to be lynched twice OR allows them win automatically in mylo if the player lives that long. No one with that power as it was in that game would ever have used the ability unless they were on the block to be lynched with no chance of saving themselves.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

Can someone please tell me what Kark has been doing with his Batcomputer? I seriously don't want to go through 20+ pages to find it.

 

[Karkador]

Which stood out to me, since he was one of the main reasons for the circumstances on D1 being what they were. The result of it being anti-town? I could buy that argument. It does, however, seem hypocritical for Kark to claim the circumstances surrounding its use were anti-town when he was part of the reason they were what they were.

I already explained why - I kept making the vote tied, so that more people hopped onto one of the two bandwagons. By doing that, we'd have a vote record to look at the following days. I knew what I was doing.

Camjo's reasons for X'ing out Flame are nebulous at best.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I'm ready to move on from Camjo, however I don't believe El Topo to be a better use of our time. If I have to buy Camjo's claim, I have to buy El Topo's too. I don't see any reason to not believe him, other than he was on the chopping block and he had to claim his role.

 

[Karkador]

Can someone please tell me what Kark has been doing with his Batcomputer? I seriously don't want to go through 20+ pages to find it.

I post a list, and people react to it. It's really that simple.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

I post a list, and people react to it. It's really that simple.

What did you imply or say the list was?

 

[Sorian]

Can someone please tell me what Kark has been doing with his Batcomputer? I seriously don't want to go through 20+ pages to find it.

He posted this post:

Alfred, input the names of our players into the Batcomputer and find the scum:




Mazre [m]
Karu [m]
SkyOdin [m]
Sorian [m]
Karkador [m]
Camjo-Z [m]
Flame_AC [m]
TL21xx [m]
weemadarthur [-]
Trigger [m]
Fireblend [m]
Coppanuva [m]
Pop-o-matic [m]
Xamtheking [m]
The Goddamn [m]
Ty4on [m]
FluxWaveZ [m]
El topo [m]

After some teeth pulling said that the bolded names were scum and the italics were neutral. Some people jumped on the possibility of it being a PR of some sort, some said it was bullshit, Roy had to come in and confirm that this game was day start so there was no night 0 for things to happen. We move in. The issue is Kark never really made a real reads list yesterday, instead opting to do this apparently because he did mostly chase people in the bolded section for lynch (Sky mostly at the end). This obviously painted some views because whenever we asked Kark if he found any of those people scummy he just responded with "that's what the bat computer says" which allowed him to distance himself from any mislynches or results from bad reads.

 

[Karkador]

What did you imply or say the list was?

A list of the scum in the game.

 

[Karkador]

The issue is Kark never really made a real reads list yesterday, instead opting to do this apparently because he did mostly chase people in the bolded section for lynch (Sky mostly at the end). This obviously painted some views because whenever we asked Kark if he found any of those people scummy he just responded with "that's what the bat computer says" which allowed him to distance himself from any mislynches or results from bad reads.

This is absolutely false.

 

[Sorian]

I'm ready to move on from Camjo, however I don't believe El Topo to be a better use of our time. If I have to buy Camjo's claim, I have to buy El Topo's too. I don't see any reason to not believe him, other than he was on the chopping block and he had to claim his role.

I agree (I'm actually fine with Topo's claim for now, it's all so convenient but sometimes things are just convenient). I drug Topo back up though because of Kark's post where he vilified Topo and Camjo together.

I actually want inactives to talk but they've been allowed to dance in the background more. Karu wasn't even subtle about it:

Great slap fight, guys!

This is TL's last post yesterday... what's your opinion on Kark and Mazre now - the latter also still missing.

 

[LaunchpadMcQ]

So, basically, Kark did a Kark-type play?

Ok, I'm ready to move on from that, too.

Where does that leave us?

 

[Sorian]

This is absolutely false.

Fair, you have the weird Alfred and Robin comedy hour where you focused in dividing people into that grouping of 12/18 and 6/18 (the 6 who had not been voted for at all and the 12 who had been). That was something at least so I'll give you that.

 

[Coppanuva]

I already explained why - I kept making the vote tied, so that more people hopped onto one of the two bandwagons. By doing that, we'd have a vote record to look at the following days. I knew what I was doing.

Camjo's reasons for X'ing out Flame are nebulous at best.

Oh I know that, and I addressed it in the post you quoted:

The result of it being anti-town? I could buy that argument.

I agree that lynching flame was a weird choice (he was the only person with no votes on him, camjo had voted on quite a few people, and he provided no information). It's why I asked Camjo to explain his choice at the beginning of today. You, however, made it sound like it was the context around him using the vote that was weird (i.e. there being a constant state of ties because "batman doesn't kill"), rather than the choice he made.

 

[Karkador]

My reads list from D1

Claiming I never posted a reads list is now entering "deliberately misleading" territory.

 

[Sorian]

My reads list from D1

Claiming I never posted a reads list is now entering "deliberately misleading" territory.

Until you said that portion of my post was absolutely false, I had 100% forgotten about this reads list. As above, you are right, you did finally end up giving us a bone after all of the pestering. The rest of that written was still true.

 

[Sorian]

So, basically, Kark did a Kark-type play?

Ok, I'm ready to move on from that, too.

Where does that leave us?

Any of the inactives, the possibility that scum killed Sky to "clear" the bolded list and prove the bat computer to be random.org, Topo, Mazre's weird D1 play, myself for defending Camjo, Kark. There is still plenty here.

 

[Karkador]

Fair, you have the weird Alfred and Robin comedy hour where you focused in dividing people into that grouping of 12/18 and 6/18 (the 6 who had not been voted for at all and the 12 who had been). That was something at least so I'll give you that.

I don't see what's unclear about it. I gave an earnest reads list. I'm not sure if I've actually seen a player try to discredit a reads list like this.

I'd been arguing all of Day 1 that there was possibly something to the fact that there was a wide spread of single votes on the playerlist (something you tried to dismiss).
With that list, I then attempted to compare that observation about the votes to the player reads I had.

 

[Sorian]

I don't see what's unclear about it. I gave an earnest reads list. I'm not sure if I've actually seen a player try to discredit a reads list like this.

I'd been arguing all of Day 1 that there was possibly something to the fact that there was a wide spread of single votes on the playerlist (something you tried to dismiss).
With that list, I then attempted to compare that observation about the votes to the player reads I had.

If we're going to talk about being deliberately misleading. I never tried to dismiss this at all. I didn't think there was much to it but I said that it was probably a viable tactic to look at. You asked us if we thought that it was odd that the votes were spread out and I didn't think it was, simple.

I'm not discrediting your reads list either, I'm point out that when you spend all day acting like a fool and deflecting with non-sense then people are gong to forget pretty easily when you do something serious. It's like the boy who cried wolf or when Blarg drops the act for a moment.

 

[Mazre]

Dude, I did a (partially) pre-written post that explains EVERYTHING. Prepare yourselves.

So, I am Jason Todd, aka Robin. (I admit it cabot, I was going for that avatar synergy.) I have two powers. One is to override the vote, as you saw yesterday. My flavor says I’m brash and not afraid to kill without thinking too much, how prophetic. Sorry for being quite rude to everyone, but as you may have guessed I was intentionally trying to get myself voted so I could justifiably use my power. I knew it’d be more useful later on, but I didn’t know if I’d still be able to use it after getting NK’d. And as SkyOdin has shown, not blowing your power on immediate BS will lead to INSTANT REGRET

I don't know if this post is still relevant, but I'll answer it anyway: I decided to use it not too long before deadline. If Topo hadn't claimed last minute or if one of them had consistently held a majority of the vote, I probably wouldn't have used it. But onto more IMPORTANT matters!

So which was it, you were trying to set up conditions to use your power and were afraid of getting NK'd before you could use it, or you didn't consider using your ability until close to the end and were considering saving it?

 

[Karu]

I agree (I'm actually fine with Topo's claim for now, it's all so convenient but sometimes things are just convenient). I drug Topo back up though because of Kark's post where he vilified Topo and Camjo together.

I actually want inactives to talk but they've been allowed to dance in the background more. Karu wasn't even subtle about it:

At least you didn't cut the second part of my comment, thanks a bunch! Poke away, though, if you must. Whatever makes you happy. =)

I think Camjo-Z is a non-target today and Kark's comments are not implausible but needlessly overbearing for what we have right now at hand, so are yours, hence... slap fight.

 

[Sorian]

At least you didn't cut the second part of my comment, thanks a bunch! Poke away, though, if you must. Whatever makes you happy. =)

I think Camjo-Z is a non-target today and Kark's comments are not implausible but needlessly overbearing for what we have right now at hand, so are yours, hence... slap fight.

So who would you pursue then? This is a lot of what not to do. What are you planning to push?