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[nkarafo]

One important note - the Snes version of Doom was not using the Doom engine at all. It's a unique version of the game crafted for the system. Note how floors and ceilings have no textures as well.

The Lynx is less capable than those machines by a wide margin, operates at a very low resolution, and has a huge limitation on colors.

Some home brew Doom lookalike could probably be made on Lynx but it would run very slow, lack features, and operate with few colors making it difficult to capture the look of the artwork.

Good luck reasoning with him.

 

[Celine]

The resolution of Lynx is actually comparable GBA version of Doom, though. Lynx is only 160x102 while GBA is 240x160. The original GameBoy was 160x144 - so even higher than Lynx. :\ Game Gear could also display many more colors than the Lynx simultaneously.

* puts on his WonderSwan fanboy hat *

And since we are at it, WonderSwan Color has a resolution of 224 x 144 and could display many more color than Game Gear simultaneously

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

One important note - the Snes version of Doom was not using the Doom engine at all. It's a unique version of the game crafted for the system. Note how floors and ceilings have no textures as well.

The Lynx is less capable than those machines by a wide margin, operates at a very low resolution, and has a huge limitation on colors.

Some home brew Doom lookalike could probably be made on Lynx but it would run very slow, lack features, and operate with few colors making it difficult to capture the look of the artwork.

Which is what I said, I never said anything other than Run doom. But nkarafo lacks the comprehension to realize I said that very thing multiple times and I also said it would have sacrifices.

I again never said the Lynx could do Doom better than the GBA which seems to be the main core of nkarafo's argument. If it wasn't this conversation would have ended.

The LYNX should be able to run Doom with sacrifices in multiple areas, but not look or run to badly do to lower graphics focus and a lower resolution. But still look impressive for the Lynx itself.

Kind of like the Lynx version of Hard Driving, nowhere close to other ports but is pretty impressive for the system.

 

[nkarafo]

Your initial argument was that "the lynx isn't much less powerful than the GBA" and i said no, because of Doom. Then you said the Lynx can run it.

So now you are backing down by saying, it would run with sacrifices and whatever. Well, what if i told you that the sacrifices would have to be so big that the game would not be Doom anymore? They would have to cut down the engine so badly, it would not be Doom anymore.

That's the definition of "it can't run it".

It's like comparing Tekken on the PS1 vs the GBA version. It's called Tekken on the GBA too but it's not really the same, is it? But under your logic, Tekken "can be run on the GBA". That's not how you compare two systems though, the only thing you do with this is creating confusion.

So yeah, even the NES can run Crysis, if you cut it down enough. It will have the same name. So it can run it. Am i right?

 

[SinCityAssassin]

So wait are we talking about the Lynx now or are we still on a Jaguar tangent. Things are getting heated in this Atari thread.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Not to mention the best launch games is irrelevant when over half your library runs worse than the best 3DO games or on par for the first few years of your life.

This is the same forum (if not mistaken) that will say the DC can compete with PS2 ignoring the later half of the its life span and games, because they do early game comparisons.

Because that's how game comparisons work? One platform died early so devs couldn't max it out; the other lived its natural course so devs eventually maxed it out. It's not rocket science.

Truthfully speaking, aside from better texturing abilities and perhaps color ability the DC isn't as powerful as PS2, even when looking at PS2's actual specs and not the bs hyped ones. But that isn't to say we ever got a chance to see the best of what the machine could do visually; assuming natural console life-cycles of the time, we would've seen it potential maxed out between 2002-2003 visually, but of course it didn't live that long in the market.

 

[panda-zebra]

So wait are we talking about the Lynx now or are we still on a Jaguar tangent. Things are getting heated in this Atari thread.

I've had my head battered by variations on this kind of defending the indefensible stuff for the better part of a decade at AtariAge. Having horrific flashbacks Add in the double and triple posting and borderline insults and I'm going to need a little lie down and a flask of lukewarm weak lemon drink to ease my nerves.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

I remember its marketing campaign "do the math" the way people go on about resolution this gen, it was "bits" back then, 32-64 bit etc.

Then I played Cybermorph and Club Drive....

 

[Bergerac]

1 - AVP
2 - I actually liked the control pad
3 - Kasumi Ninja was hilarious

 

[Alebrije]

Uh the 3DO is not the jaguar, which is what I'm comparing most games ont eh SAt/PSX to, because most games on thsoe two systems between 1994-1996 could run on the 3DO. Which had good framerates for lots of games. I never said the Jaguar.

I think Blade Force is a good example of what 3DO was able to do. 3DO where working on M2 becuase Saturn and PS but again the business model of licensing the hardware was very bad.

3DO was a good console , not as bad as some people think

 

[commish]

I think Blade Force is a good example of what 3DO was able to do. 3DO where working on M2 becuase Saturn and PS but again the business model of licensing the hardware was very bad.

3DO was a good console , not as bad as some people think

Killing Time as well. Both great games.

3DO had a lot of good to great games. It gets so much hate because of the insane price and the stupid business model.

 

[Alebrije]

Killing Time as well. Both great games.

3DO had a lot of good to great games. It gets so much hate because of the insane price and the stupid business model.

Killing time was good ( dat ending) , and $&$&#&$% clowns!!!

Also there was a game called The Horde, very good gameplay , you only needed to avoid the annoying cinemas.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Wasn't Roadblasters 60fps on the Lynx? Maybe not, can't remember.

Love the Lynx though. My fave handheld until the GBA. Well, that's not completely true. I did have a Turbo Express.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Wasn't Roadblasters 60fps on the Lynx? Maybe not, can't remember.

Love the Lynx though. My fave handheld until the GBA. Well, that's not completely true. I did have a Turbo Express.

Batman returns on Lynx was ace

Chips challenge, Pac land, blue lightning

Ahh memories

 

[Ninja Scooter]

DIdn't the Jag get a pretty good Primal Rage port?

 

[Krejlooc]

Lol you guys are arguing technical specs on the last two pages with a guy who called the m68k, the "moto3600k or moto3800k"

DIdn't the Jag get a pretty good Primal Rage port?

Its not that good.

 

[Goldenroad]

Pretty sure you're missing some key words in your topic. I personally do not see the Jaguar competing with the PS4.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Your initial argument was that \"the lynx isn\'t much less powerful than the GBA\" and i said no, because of Doom. Then you said the Lynx can run it.

So now you are backing down by saying, it would run with sacrifices and whatever. Well, what if i told you that the sacrifices would have to be so big that the game would not be Doom anymore? They would have to cut down the engine so badly, it would not be Doom anymore.

That\'s the definition of \"it can\'t run it\".

It\'s like comparing Tekken on the PS1 vs the GBA version. It\'s called Tekken on the GBA too but it\'s not really the same, is it? But under your logic, Tekken \"can be run on the GBA\". That\'s not how you compare two systems though, the only thing you do with this is creating confusion.

So yeah, even the NES can run Crysis, if you cut it down enough. It will have the same name. So it can run it. Am i right?

No i\'m not because I also said the Lynx could run a downgraded version of the GBA game. More like the High end then times PC version of doom compared to the 3do version, not your nonsense strawman attempt with Crysis NES.

I have no idea why you are so upset and resulting to low brow dirty debate tactics and putting words in my mouth I never said or even closely implied. To confuse the next reader perhaps?

Again you continue to dodge the main issue here. The SNES runs doom like this, with a chip that basically gives use Starfox, wich runs better than a port on the 3Do despite the 3Do being 2x more capable. But you think the GBA version with it\'s blurred and pixeled graphics with a cut resolution, and a bit of a drop in framerate can\'t run on a handheld that has a port of Steel talons and Hard Drivin??? A 386 couldn\'t run that and a 386 can run doom.

I mean I have no idea how to explain this to you. But doom can run on the Lynx.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Lol you guys are arguing technical specs on the last two pages with a guy who called the m68k, the \"moto3600k or moto3800k\"



Its not that good.

I corrected that later mr.nitpick sanic.

I think Blade Force is a good example of what 3DO was able to do. 3DO where working on M2 becuase Saturn and PS but again the business model of licensing the hardware was very bad.

3DO was a good console , not as bad as some people think

Yes it was, it also ran or could run the majority of Sat/PSX games there first few years. The 3DO was a decent alternative before it died off.

3DO however did have a cap. I think you could have pushed it more with some tricks, but the texture issues was always going to be a problem. The Jaguar didin\'t have this issue, but the 2D 6800 they used to put the system made it so that the 3DO would seem to have better graphics. Messed up big.

I heard someone mentioned the CD32 earlier, a system that further proved that bits had nothing to do with graphics just as the Intellivision did before. Twas a good system but it was basically a late 80\'s very early 90\'s 2D machine with ports from Amiga Coms.

 

[Krejlooc]

I corrected that later mr.nitpick sanic.

You also incorrectly described its function on the jaguar.

In fact, most of your technical breakdown in this topic has been nonsense. Like this:

The Jaguar didin\'t have this issue, but the 2D 6800 they used to put the system made it so that the 3DO would seem to have better graphics. Messed up big.

The m68k doesnt handle graphics. It is used as a dsp and handles controller multiplexing.

Source: I have written atari jaguar homebrew.

And this:

Twas a good system but it was basically a late 80\'s very early 90\'s 2D machine with ports from Amiga Coms.

It didnt have "ports" from amiga computers, it was literally an amiga 1200.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

You also incorrectly described its function on the jaguar.

In fact, most of your technical breakdown in this topic has been nonsense. Like this:



The m68k doesnt handle graphics. It is used as a dsp and handles controller multiplexing.

Source: I have written atari jaguar homebrew.

And this:



It didnt have \\\\\\\"ports\\\\\\\" from amiga computers, it was literally an amiga 1200.

I never said the 68k was used for graphics, I said the 68k was used to boot the system, and it running causes issues with programming on the two RISCs it had, causing a bottleneck in graphics and other functions

Which is 100% accurate.

Also It did have ports. WTF do you think the versions in the CD32 boxes were? The 1200 versions rewrapped? Some of the games on the CD32 ran better, and some ran worse, I played the system before. Try again.

 

[panda-zebra]

I think you could have pushed it more with some tricks, but the texture issues was always going to be a problem. The Jaguar didin\'t have this issue, but the 2D 6800 they used to put the system made it so that the 3DO would seem to have better graphics.

please just stop.

 

[Krejlooc]

I never said the 68k was used for graphics, I said the 68k was used to put the system, and it running causes issues with programming on the two RISCs it had, causing a bottleneck in graphics and other functions

Which is 100% accurate.

One mistake about the Jaguar was that they wanted BC with Panther games, so they added the Moto3800k or 3600k chip for 2D sprites, and backgtround scaling for some of the Panthers 3D protoypes.

Mmhmm.

Also It did have ports. WTF do you think the versions in the CD32 boxes were? The 1200 versions rewrapped? Some of the games on the CD32 ran better, and some ran worse, I played the system before. Try again.

They are literally the same files from self booting disks with an s folder with a script to make them boot from the cd drive. Source: I convert a500 disks into cd32 format.

In fact, I made a topic about doing that 2 years ago:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=895358

Amiga 500/1200/CD32

The Amiga came in a variety of shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of this topic, I'll keep the discussion to the two models of Amiga I use regularly - the CD32, which was basically an Amiga 1200 in a console-shaped box with a CD drive, and the normal Amiga 1200. For those who have never used an Amiga before, they typically didn't have harddrives installed and worked primarily off of the floppy drive port. The Amiga will automatically boot up whatever is in the floppy drive when you turn the machine on, without having to input any commands. This is neat for games because you can treat game floppies the same way you treat games on any other machine, just insert them and turn the machine on.

The great news is that the Amigas have a ton of awesome utilities and options available for people looking to format shift their games. First of all, most Amigas will support and internal hard drive, even if a harddrive isn't standard. On both my CD32 and A1200 I have an Amibay Compact Flash -> IDE kit installed for 2 4 gb Compact Flash cards inside working as the harddrives with Workbench 3.1 installed:

Getting a CF kit installed on a CD32 is a bit tricky, as the CD32 strips out almost all of the normal Amiga 1200 connections. The CD32, for example, is missing both a floppy drive and a floppy drive connection, along with the IDE port. Luckily, the CD32's back edge connector has these pins still present, even if they're unused on a stock CD32. Similarly lucky is that 2 expansion devices, the SX-1 and the SX-32, exist that will add back the normal A1200 functionality to a CD32. I have an SX-1 installed on my CD32:

That's an SX-1 with the top off, which is how you access the IDE input on the thing. With the SX-1 open, I can pop in the CF->IDE kit and install a CF harddrive. the process is much more straight forward on a normal Amiga 1200 (being that they were built with harddrives in mind to begin with). After installing Workbench on these systems, I then purchased WHDLoad, a commercial (sold online) program for Amigas that lets them run floppy games from a harddrive. Very few floppy games allowed themselves to be installed on a harddrive like normal, but WHDLoad will let you rip your floppy game into a WHD image that can be mounted and loaded through a virtual floppy drive on these machines. WHDLoad uses a bit more ram than normal, so 2mb (4mb recommended) ram expansions are necessary for both machines.

WHDLoad is nice, but we want our machines to function as originally as possible. Having to boot into Workbench and click on some icons isn't how these games were originally loaded, they were supposed to be self-booting floppy disks. There are, thankfully, a few options one can use to restore this feature to these machines.

A stock CD32 will treat it's CD Drive just like a floppy drive. Upon boot up, even if a floppy drive is present via the SX-1 or SX-32, even if the harddrive is present, the first thing the unit will try is to spin the disc and read the CD Rom as though it was a floppy. Though the CD32 was billed as a console, peaking under the hood at how it all works reveals that it's just a normal amiga with a slightly unique boot up ROM. The CDs themselves are treated just like huge floppies with a bootsector containing a file called CDTV.TM. CDTV.TM is a file that is required to make a CD game self booting and identify as a floppy. The CD32 looks for CDTV.TM in the bootsector, and if present, it'll then begin looking at the CD like it's a floppy, launching whatever script is in the /S folder on the CD like a normal floppy.

With this in mind, we can create self-booting CD games that behave like a floppy. To do this, we need a few tools:

* A normal, modern PC running WinUAE and the kickstart roms, which can be legally purchased here: http://www.amigaforever.com/
* A CD Burner on said PC
* CDTV Developer's kit (Not readily available for purchase, but if interested shoot me a PM and I can direct you to someone who owns the rights to said kit)
* MakeCD for Amiga (the unregistered demo floating around online is fine)
* WHDLoad32: (registered version preferred) http://www.whdload.de/docs/en/cd32.html

To build a self-booting CD, first configure WinUAE to boot up into Workbench, setting up the emulator to use a folder on your PC as thought it was a harddrive (this is where our disc image is going to output to). You'll also probably want to get an ADF image of the game you're going to format shift.

On the PC side of things, configure a folder with all the contents of your self-booting CD. This means the folder that'll contain what will become your CD should have an /s folder with an appropriate WHDLoad32 script inside, along with the WHD files from your ADF. If you're unfamiliar with what a self booting game's contents should look like, what I did to learn was download a self-booting title from RGCD:

Like this Turrican collection (which I feel confident linking to because Factor 5 themselves have the games available to freely download on their website)

Just follow the example from his iso on how to build your folder. You can even use his own scripts to load your WHDLoad32 files, which I did. I dunno if RGCD minds if you use his scripts as a template, but I asked him about this one time and he didn't seem to get upset, so YMMV.

Anywho, after you have a folder with the appropriate content on your PC, open up MakeCD and feed it the folder as a source. Because you have that mounted folder inside the folder mounted as a harddrive, Workbench will see it as an amiga folder and treat it as such.When you add the folder as a source, you'll see a button that says "Boot Options." Click this and select "Add CDTV settings to image" which will request a trademark file. Browse to your CDTV.TM file from your developers tools and click save.

Click Create ISO and set your ISO Prefs to match the screen above. Click "OK" then "make image file" and let MakeCD run. It'll spit out an iso into the folder you have mounted. Close WinUAE and go to windows and burn that ISO like any normal ISO. That CD you burn will now be a selfbooting WHDLoad CD that can run the floppy game you fed it as though it was a floppy.

This isn't that complex once you get the process down - the most difficult part is configuring WHDLoad correctly in your /s script. Beyond that, it's a good way to transfer your floppies to CD. The downside, of course, is that CD32 CD-Rom drives are dying and a normal A1200 doesn't have a CD Rom Drive to begin with.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Mmhmm.



They are literally the same files from self booting disks with an s folder with a script to make them boot from the cd drive. Source: I convert a500 disks into cd32 format.

You didn\'t prove me wrong.

I said the 68k was a reason why the graphics are bottle-necked, that\'s 100% true.

The 68k was used to boot. I didn\'t say the 68k didn\'t do anything else you added that yourself. my point was graphics, 3 graphics, as is the context of this thread so far.

The 68k to reach any further to increase the Jaguar graphics, would have to be turned, off, which has it\'s own side effects, or they would have to go around using it but while it\'s still taking resources.

 

[jstripes]

The fact wolfenstein is even a prototype that seems to work actually helps my point.

3Do doom with GBA like graphics, at a lower resolution should be possible on the lynx. Especially since the SNES and 3DO ports aren't that far apart even though the 3DO is much more powerful than the SNES, and the SNES itself can't run doom without an FX chip that BARELY runs it.

I see no reason why it can't run Doom. But if you think logic doesn't work here then you we can agree to disagree.

I never said there wasn't much difference. You have omitted my posts and put words I never said in my mouth. Again, how about not using crappy tactics.

SNES can't run doom, needs FX chips to BARELY run doom better than the garbage 3DO port that is equal to a low end computer that can manage to run it, and you don't think a console with higher graphics capabilities for 3D, than the BASE SNES, can't run a Doom came running at the speed of the 3DO, with pixel graphics and blur equal or a bit worse than the GBA version?

Ok, look. The Lynx had a sluggish prototype of Wolfenstein that appears to support only one enemy on the screen at a time. You claim to understand that there's a huge difference between the complexity of the Wolf 3D and Doom engines, but you still insist Lynx can run Doom even though it can barely run a passable version of Wolf 3D.

The best you're going to get is Wolf 3D skinned with Doom sprites and called "Doom".


Also, the GBA had no problem running it because it sported a more modern ARM chip that's more efficient and optimized for more complex math than older chips. (It also runs 4x faster.)

 

[Krejlooc]

You didn\'t prove me wrong.

I said the 68k was a reason why the graphics are bottle-necked, that\'s 100% true.

The 68k was used to boot. I didn\'t say the 68k didn\'t do anything else you added that yourself. my point was graphics, 3 graphics, as is the context of this thread so far.

The 68k to reach any further to increase the Jaguar graphics, would have to be turned, off, which has it\'s own side effects, or they would have to go around using it but while it\'s still taking resources.

I literally quoted you unedited, lol.

The m68k isnt a "2d chip," its a cpu. And literally all it handles is controller multiplexing, you can entirely avoid the m68k all together.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

please just stop.

Stop what telling the truth?

it\'s well known, even in the homebrew community for the Jaguar, the 68k was one of the worse mistakes Atari ever put in their system.

The 68K was one of the many, but top prime reasons that graphics programming on the Jag was bottle necked and the whole wasted resources issues as well.

 

[jstripes]

I literally quoted you unedited, lol.

The m68k isnt a "2d chip," its a cpu. And literally all it handles is controller multiplexing, you can entirely avoid the m68k all together.

Wait. Did he really imply it was a "2d chip"?

A GPU was a GPU back then. 2D and 3D didn't play into it.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

I literally quoted you unedited, lol.

The m68k isnt a \"2d chip,\" its a cpu. And literally all it handles is controller multiplexing, you can entirely avoid the m68k all together.

It is a 2D chip for games. You don\'t use a 68k for 3D games outside maybe assisting in something like backgrounds. Which the Jagaur, the topic we are discussing, can\'t do because you can\'t use the RISCs and the 68k at the same time. Therefore, the 68k, a chip used for 2D graphics, is basically useless for pushed 3D games on the Jaguar.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Wait. Did he really imply it was a \"2d chip\"?

A GPU was a GPU back then. 2D and 3D didn\'t play into it.

Uh what?

This new argument is desperation, the 68k was a 2D chip for games, that\'s what it was mostly used for and that was what t was mostly used for on the Jaguar. The topic we are discussing. The 68k was a nightmare for 3D jaguar programmers.

 

[Krejlooc]

It is a 2D chip for games. You don\'t use a 68k for 3D games outside maybe assisting in something like backgrounds. Which the Jagaur, the topic we are discussing, can\'t do because you can\'t use the RISCs and the 68k at the same time. Therefore, the 68k, a chip used for 2D graphics, is basically useless for pushed 3D games on the Jaguar.

Tempest 2000 is written entirely in m68k microprocessor assembly, and doesnt use tom or jerry at all. Source: jeff minter interview in "atari jaguar official gamer's guide"

The 68k was a nightmare for 3D jaguar programmers.

No it wasnt. It was the most familiar hardware in the entire machine. The m68k is a super popular cpu.

 

[Glowsquid]

nvm

 

[Dash_Riprock]

DIdn't the Jag get a pretty good Primal Rage port?

PS version blows it out of the water.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

PS version blows it out of the water.

Yeah I forgot the PSone/Saturn got versions. I only remember the crap SNES/Genny ports. 3DO got it too.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Ok, look. The Lynx had a sluggish prototype of Wolfenstein that appears to support only one enemy on the screen at a time. You claim to understand that there\'s a huge difference between the complexity of the Wolf 3D and Doom engines, but you still insist Lynx can run Doom even though it can barely run a passable version of Wolf 3D.

The best you\'re going to get is Wolf 3D skinned with Doom sprites and called \"Doom\".


Also, the GBA had no problem running it because it sported a more modern ARM chip that\'s more efficient and optimized for more complex math than older chips. (It also runs 4x faster.)

Wolf 3D is an independent project, and this is just an example they whipped up and you are considering it to show off the limits of the Lynx? That makes zero sense. ZERO.

The SNES with FX can run Doom barely better than the 3DO version, which is more capable that the SNESFX. BTW SNES itself can\'t run doom at all, or Hardrivin, or Steel talons, the Lynx can run both of those.

A freaking 386 can run Doom.

Doom GBA with a lower resolution, bland coloring, and maybe a slight hit to frame slapped on a lynx should be able to run. This is the same system, again, running Steel talons and Hard Drivin. (Talons came out in 1992 as well early in the Lynxs lifespan. Hard Drivin 1991)

 

[panda-zebra]

Stop what telling the truth?

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Tempest 2000 is written entirely in m68k microprocessor assembly, and doesnt use tom or jerry at all. Source: jeff minter interview in \"atari jaguar official gamer\'s guide\"



No it wasnt. It was the most familiar hardware in the entire machine. The m68k is a super popular cpu.

Which was mostly used for 2d On the Jaguar, and the 69k factually caused issues with pushing advanced 3D games because it would interfere with using the two RISCSs. Look at AVP.

The fact you think Tempest 3000 which uses a lot of sprite tricks and low polygons has anything to do with pushing 3D is hilarious.

If the Jag used 68k like the 32x, that is, having the 68k use ram on a different bus, then things may have been different, but the 68k is a huge resource hog.

 

[jstripes]

Uh what?

This new argument is desperation, the 68k was a 2D chip for games, that\'s what it was mostly used for and that was what t was mostly used for on the Jaguar. The topic we are discussing. The 68k was a nightmare for 3D jaguar programmers.

Wow.

The 68k was a general purpose CPU architecture. The Macintosh used it until they switched to PowerPC, and so did the Amiga.

It was not a "2D chip for games".

 

[Krejlooc]

Which was mostly used for 2d On the Jaguar, and the 69k factually caused issues with pushing advanced 3D games because it would interfere with using the two RISCSs. Look at AVP.

The fact you think Tempest 3000 which uses a lot of sprite tricks and low polygons has anything to do with pushing 3D is hilarious.

If the Jag used 68k like the 32x, that is, having the 68k use ram on a different bus, then things may have been different, but the 68k is a huge resource hog.

The 32x uses an sh2 processor, not an m68k

 

[malboroking]

Uh what?

This new argument is desperation, the 68k was a 2D chip for games, that's what it was mostly used for and that was what t was mostly used for on the Jaguar. The topic we are discussing. The 68k was a nightmare for 3D jaguar programmers.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to take krejlooc's side on this argument. He really knows his retro stuff and is a proven commodity on these boards. No offense, but you're just some guy with no clout here.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Tempest 2000 is written entirely in m68k microprocessor assembly, and doesnt use tom or jerry at all. Source: jeff minter interview in \"atari jaguar official gamer\'s guide\"



No it wasnt. It was the most familiar hardware in the entire machine. The m68k is a super popular cpu.

Which was mostly used for 2d On the Jaguar, and the 69k factually caused issues with pushing advanced 3D games because it would interfere with using the two RISCSs. Look at AVP.

The fact you think Tempest 3000 which uses a lot of sprite tricks and low polygons has anything to do with pushing 3D is hilarious.

If the Jag used 68k like the 32x, that is, having the 68k use ram on a different bus, then things may have been different, but the 68k is a huge resource hog.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

The 32x uses an sh2 processor, not an m68k

The 32X has a bios with the 68k using it for Mapper Registers so I have no idea wtf you are talking about.

You\\\\\\\'re evading btw. The 68k is factually an issue. it\\\\\\\'s the weakest processor of the 3, it is not used for 3D games, it causes issues with pushing 3D graphics on the jaguar, and it\\\\\\\'s just all around useless. The only thing the 68k is good for on the jaguar is games like Rayman.

You also haven\\\\\\\'t addressed my response to your tempest 2000 compliment.

Wow.

The 68k was a general purpose CPU architecture. The Macintosh used it until they switched to PowerPC, and so did the Amiga.

It was not a \\\"2D chip for games\\\".

What part of \\\"On the jaguar\\\" did you fail to read?

I\'m afraid I\'m going to have to take krejlooc\'s side on this argument. He really knows his retro stuff and is a proven commodity on these boards. No offense, but you\'re just some guy with no clout here.

Sorry him being some long member here and you indirectly saying you don\'t know what either of us are talking about doesn\'t make him right.

Takes seconds to see the 68k is a problem for 3D, use your favorite search engine. Literally know one says the jagaur use of the 68k was good for 3D. It literally hogs the Bus, you can\'t run it in parallel with the Riscs, and it wastes resources. Period, this is not an argument.

The best the 68k can do is use subpar polys, barely, and sprite manipulation which gives you games like Tempest, but you can\'t even do Cybermorph with the 68k on the jaguar.

 

[panda-zebra]

Wow.

The 68k was a general purpose CPU architecture. The Macintosh used it until they switched to PowerPC, and so did the Amiga.

It was not a "2D chip for games".

The guy doesn't know his arse from his elbow, he's half regurgitating Jaguar uberfan doctrine but seems a little rusty on the execution.

Quite how or why he's been allowed to pollute several pages of GAF with such nonsense unhindered is an odd one, maybe it's a social experiment...

As someone who has made a few Jaguar games and demos and struggled to have the jag seen in anything like a positive light it's disappointing that this kind of drivel might be all some people ever get exposed to, with the result being mental notes being made to steer well clear of anything Jaguar related at all costs.

I've never had cause to report someone to the mods, probably gonna have to figure that out now or just go put my head in a bucket of ice and pretend this thread doesn't exist.

 

[Krejlooc]

The 32X has a bios with the 68k using it for Mapper Registers so I have no idea wtf you are talking about.

Lol this is gibberish.

The sega genesis has an m68k. The 32x contains a bios rom with an m68k binary to begin execution on the sega genesis, but the 32x does not have an m68k at all. It has an sh2 processor.

Your comment about t2k is nothing more than "t2k lol."

but you can\'t even do Cybermorph with the 68k on the jaguar.

Cybermorph almost exclusively uses the m68k. It was a panther demo.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

The guy doesn\'t know his arse from his elbow, he\'s half regurgitating Jaguar uberfan doctrine but seems a little rusty on the execution.

Quite how or why he\'s been allowed to pollute several pages of GAF with such nonsense unhindered is an odd one, maybe it\'s a social experiment...

As someone who has made a few Jaguar games and demos and struggled to have the jag seen in anything like a positive light it\'s disappointing that this kind of drivel might be all some people ever get exposed to, with the result being mental notes being made to steer well clear of anything Jaguar related at all costs.

I\'ve never had cause to report someone to the mods, probably gonna have to figure that out now or just go put my head in a bucket of ice and pretend this thread doesn\'t exist.

Prove me wrong that \"on the jagaur\" the 68k wasn\'t used mostly as a 2D chip and most games using the 68k outside the jagaur didn\'t use it as a 2D chip.

I never said the chip WAS a 2D chip. It seems when failing to debate you guys switch words around.

Again truth hurts, but the 68k did nothing for the jag and it helped bottle neck it\'s 3D capabilities, literally takes seconds on a search engine to see that the 68k is a common sourced issue, along with it not being able to run parallel with the two RISCS. Or the Blitter for that matter, which is ANOTHER issue.

Unless someone actually can prove that otherwise than saying i don\'t know anything doesn\'t mean much when there\'s no counter.

 

[Sapiens]

I could do the same thing you did by choosing bad GBA games and good Lynx games.

Again most games on the GBA did nt look much better than Lynx games because most devs did not utilize the hardware like the Vrally and Driv3r guys did. I don't understand how that's something one can argue?

This is the most insane thing I've ever read...

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

Lol this is gibberish.

The sega genesis has an m68k. The 32x contains a bios rom with an m68k binary to begin execution on the sega genesis, but the 32x does not have an m68k at all. It has an sh2 processor.

Your comment about t2k is nothing more than \"t2k lol.\"



Cybermorph almost exclusively uses the m68k. It was a panther demo.

No see now you are using the \"lol\" argument instead of backing yourself up.

Tempest 2k has heavy uses of sprites, and is barely pushing an advancedments in 3D on the jaguar, which was my argument fromt he start, so you can\'t backtrack and pull this nonsense trick while you are losing the debate.

Prove to me the 68k on the jaguar was not a bottleneck. Why is the 68k often an issue when you look up the Jags set-up? Why can\'t you use the 68k at the same time as the blitter or the two more capable riscs? Why have there been statements of turning the 68k off for better results and framerate?

You have zero idea what you are talking about. Worst part s most of this is easily searchable.

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

This is the most insane thing I\\\'ve ever read...

I\'m sorry could you elaborate on this.

 

[Krejlooc]

You have zero idea what you are talking about. Worst part s most of this is easily searchable.

What is funny is that multiple people in this topic recognize each other from regularly conversing back at js2 where we wrote homebrew and demos. Ive never seen you before in my life.

However, you want some "proof"? Here is the source to cybermorph, almost entirely written in m68k:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/121100-cybermorph-sources/page-1

 

[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

What is funny is that multiple people in this topic recognize each other from regularly conversing back at js2 where we wrote homebrew and demos. Ive never seen you before in my life.

However, you want some \"proof\"? Here is the source to cybermorph, almost entirely written in m68k:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/121100-cybermorph-sources/page-1

Hey look the same website:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/102168-why-are-frame-rates-of-jaguar-3d-games-so-low/page-6

The best way to operate the jag is without the 68k at all..it is really not necessary. It only runs at half the speed and is only 1/4 the bus. It really holds up a 64 bit bus just
so it can move 16 bit data around. Even just it grabbing instructions is too much. The
GPU and DSP in proper harmony are well more efficient and they way the designers intended to run the system. So far all of our 3D games are using an engine that is soley GPU and no more 68k hoggin up the bus.

Well?