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[Salty Hippo]

People keep saying it, but what's the basis? Because MS says that's what they want to do? They don't dictate how the industry goes, otherwise it would be a hell of a lot different right now already.

Because it's the most pro-consumer move and if Sony refuses to do so it'll bite them in the ass. People who buy the upgraded console will not accept to get left behind when the "new generation" comes just 3 years later. This will at the very least disencourage people en masse to buy the Pro versions of Sony consoles.

 

[Ezekiel]

Are Sony and Microsoft resetting the clock for this gen with PS4 Pro and Scorpio?

I don't think Sony is, because they are in such a dominant position. They're releasing an updated piece of hardware at the orginal's price. PS5 will arrive in ~2019.

I think Microsoft will pull a Xbox 360 to the OG Xbox with the Scorpio:

- The Xbox was released in North America on November 15, 2001
- The Xbox 360 on November 22, 2005
- A difference of 4 years

- The Xbox One was released on November 22, 2013 in North America
- The Scorpio is announced for holiday 2017 (November ?)
- A difference of 4 years

Now ask yourself this : how long did it take for Microsoft to drop support of the OG Xbox when the Xbox 360 released ? How long do you think it will take for Microsoft to drop support of the Xbox One when the Scorpio is released ?

I think Microsoft wants to distance itself from the Xbox One as fast as possible and that's why they are releasing a more powerful console... They want to start a new generation fresh.

 

[KageMaru]

I don't think Sony or MS are resetting the clock but maybe changing how generations are handled instead. I know both Sony and MS have been saying that these console refreshes are considered the same generation as the PS4 and XBO, but I can see support being dropped for the OG models before dropping support for the Pro and Scorpio.

edit:

Are Sony and Microsoft resetting the clock for this gen with PS4 Pro and Scorpio? Reply to Thread?

I don't think Sony is, because they are in such a dominant position. They're releasing an updated piece of hardware at the orginal's price. PS5 will arrive in ~2019.

I think Microsoft will pull a Xbox 360 to the OG Xbox with the Scorpio:

- The Xbox was released in North America on November 15, 2001
- The Xbox 360 on November 22, 2005
- A difference of 4 years

- The Xbox One was released on November 22, 2013 in North America
- The Scorpio is announced for holiday 2017 (November ?)
- A difference of 4 years

Now ask yourself this : how long did it take for Microsoft to drop support of the OG Xbox when the Xbox 360 released ? How long do you think it will take for Microsoft to drop support of the Xbox One when the Scorpio is released ?

I think Microsoft wants to distance itself from the Xbox One as fast as possible and that's why they are releasing a more powerful console... They want to start a new generation fresh.

The situation is vastly different now than it was with the OG Xbox.

Not only that but the scorpio is not enough of a generational leap to be considered their next gen system.

It'll likely be handled where OG XBO will be seen as the low end PC and scorpio as the higher end PC.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Because it's the most pro-consumer move and if Sony refuses to do so it'll bite them in the ass. People who buy the upgraded console will not accept to get left behind when the "new generation" comes just 3 years later. This will at the very least disencourage people en masse to buy the Pro versions of Sony consoles.

How is forwards compatibility the most pro consumer move'?

Sony have said a million times that the Pro is a unit designed specifically to make your PS4 games run better and that's it. You should not be expecting anything more than that, this is why it is completely optional in regards to playing the same games as the normal PS4

When they want you to upgrade, you should not expect all later games to work on your PS4 perpetually just because you may not want to upgrade like you've always had to. That makes no sense, and is analogous to what devs want to do as well from a purely technological perspective.


Now if we're talking full backwards compatibility, that is the clear way forward to me. If you want to play the games fully taking advantage of PS5, you can do that, but your library you've already invested in should stay solvent.

I don't think Sony or MS are resetting the clock but maybe changing how generations are handled instead. I know both Sony and MS have been saying that these console refreshes are considered the same generation as the PS4 and XBO, but I can see support being dropped for the OG models before dropping support for the Pro and Scorpio.
.

Pro isn't strong enough to be considered its own unit, especially not for long enough to drop support for PS4.

The CPU is only 30% stronger, the RAM is only 30% faster. If your making a game for the Pro, the basic assumption is that a PS4 version also has to be possible by default, as the Pro was only built(from a components stand point) to give a graphics and resolution boost over it to begin with. It is not strong enough to have games that could not be made on the previous hardware, or even give a tangible boost of experience beyond it.

 

[truth411]

Nah I fully expect a PS5 and Xbox Two, in 3 years. These consoles are just midgen refresh (for example: N3DS), the clock still continues at least in my opinion. Although, Scorpion might change things.

Scorpio is Xbox two hardware wise. It's a completely new console hardware wise. Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Maybe Microsoft.. but I'm afraid Sony didn't make a big enough leap.

 

[KageMaru]

Pro isn't strong enough to be considered its own unit, especially not for long enough to drop support for PS4.

The CPU is only 30% stronger, the RAM is only 30% faster. If your making a game for the Pro, the basic assumption is that a PS4 version also has to be possible by default, as the Pro was only built(from a components stand point) to give a graphics and resolution boost over it to begin with. It is not strong enough to have games that could not be made on the previous hardware.

Yeah, that's true. I can see there being less concern about stable performance on the OG PS4 then at that point. I can see console development following an iOS-like model. Games will support consoles only so old and if you're playing on the oldest supported console then well....performance is probably not going to be ideal.

 

[family_guy]

Scorpio is Xbox two hardware wise. It's a completely new console hardware wise. Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

If it's not allowed to have exclusives, then I wouldn't consider it to be Xbox 2.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Scorpio is Xbox two hardware wise. It's a completely new console hardware wise. Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

Scorpio is still a Pro like scenario, unless MS says devs can make new games on it, not tethered to the previous gen. And even then, i doubt any devs would bother doing that just to take advantage of Scorpio when they have XB1, PS4 and Pro to account for.

Even if Scorpio comes out with a Zen CPU and a 6 TFLOP GPU with 320GB bandwidth and 12GB RAM, its still going to be constrained by the market.

 

[bitbydeath]

Maybe Microsoft.. but I'm afraid Sony didn't make a big enough leap.

History dictates not to do the more expensive/release later (PS3) option again.

 

[RedSwirl]

By the way, I think how long older models are supported in this "new" way of doing transitions is gonna be determined more by publishers and consumers than console manufacturers.

Even when new models come out and platform holders don't absolutely require the support of old models, publishers will continue to support them as long as consumers are still buying games to play on them. PC developers optimize games around the most popular graphics cards, and in some cases around integrated graphics. Publishers did cross-gen games as long as people still bought PS3 and 360 games. iOS developers still support older iPhones and iOS versions because a not-insignificant portion of consumers are using them.

 

[Renekton]

We get 7nm in 2020 right?

So maybe TIME EXTENSION for an extra year.

Maybe Microsoft.. but I'm afraid Sony didn't make a big enough leap.

Neither will MS if they re-use weak Jaguar CPUs.

 

[GLAMr]

I think it is unfair to combine the two in this regard.

Sony seem to be aiming for a "tick-tock" hardware iteration cycle we have typically seen in the GPU and CPU space, wherein there's a huge revolutionary leap, followed by a refinement and improvement of that platform.

MS appear to be going for a system more like what we see in mobile phones, wherein a new tent pole product comes out at a set interval, the previous model becomes a low cost option and older models continue to receive software support for a while.

Of the two, it will be interesting to see which works better. Phone companies can use their continuous release cycle because the flagship devices already have such a high markup upon release. After a year, they can half the price of the phone and still see a profit. Consoles are more like GPUs and CPUs in that there is very little profit per unit. At the end of the day, console profitability is all about content licensing, so market share and attachment rates are very important. This also makes comparison to other industries difficult. The next few years will be interesting to say the least.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Sony wants to extend the cycle. MS wants to redefine it through hardware refreshes similar to mobile upgrades. The question is where is the cit off point for development?

Developers will evetually have to migrate to rxclusively develop for the newer tech at some point, but I agree there should not be a mass exodus at console 'generations' its both costly to both consumers and devs.

It's fairly easy to handle this though. MS has made X1 compatibility a requirement for all games, so Scorpio isn't going to take anything away from that. It's arguably being pushed in the same way the Pro controller is; an enthusiast device. Hell, MS could very well be using the Scorpio to test the waters for the eventual successor console to the X1.

If MS does go the mobile upgrade thing in the future (to reiterate, they've said this isn't true for Scorpio at least, but say X2/Scorpio 2 does this in the future), then they'll do it like phones do. You just leapfrog in pairs like Sith Lords so that there are always two supported consoles; a cheaper, older one and the new hotness. Once the next console comes out, the cheaper one is phased out and the former powerhouse becomes the budget console. Rinse, repeat.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think it is unfair to combine the two in this regard.

Sony seem to be aiming for a "tick-tock" hardware iteration cycle we have typically seen in the GPU and CPU space, wherein there's a huge revolutionary leap, followed by a refinement and improvement of that platform.

MS appear to be going for a system more like what we see in mobile phones, wherein a new tent pole product comes out at a set interval, the previous model becomes a low cost option and older models continue to receive software support for a while.

Of the two, it will be interesting to see which works better. Phone companies can use their continuous release cycle because the flagship devices already have such a high markup upon release. After a year, they can half the price of the phone and still see a profit. Consoles are more like GPUs and CPUs in that there is very little profit per unit. At the end of the day, console profitability is all about content licensing, so market share and attachment rates are very important. This also makes comparison to other industries difficult. The next few years will be interesting to say the least.

Good comparison.

 

[dragonelite]

Scorpio is Xbox two hardware wise. It's a completely new console hardware wise. Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

This is such a weird narative, ps4 pro is a extension but Scorpio is a next gen device. Not even Microsoft is running with that message.

 

[wonderful103]

Good comparison.

Except in the end they're both going to go the Microsoft (or more accurately the smartphone) model as long as they can continue selling hardware rather than a service on your existing devices. Services now, not generations guys.

 

[CrashPrime]

When talking about refreshes and the PSVR, we need to first establish VR is not the future for consoles. At least for now. There needs to be like, a single meaningful title that is exclusive to VR before entire generations of game consoles use them to shape their strategy.

 

[Salty Hippo]

How is forwards compatibility the most pro consumer move'?

Sony have said a million times that the Pro is a unit designed specifically to make your PS4 games run better and that's it. You should not be expecting anything more than that, this is why it is completely optional in regards to playing the same games as the normal PS4

When they want you to upgrade, you should not expect all later games to work on your PS4 perpetually just because you may not want to upgrade like you've always had to. That makes no sense, and is analogous to what devs want to do as well from a purely technological perspective.


Now if we're talking full backwards compatibility, that is the clear way forward to me. If you want to play the games fully taking advantage of PS5, you can do that, but your library you've already invested in should stay solvent.

If the answer isn't already obvious to you then I don't think I can say anything that will convince you, really.

It doesn't matter what Sony said or wants, that's not what sets expectations for consumers. If their competitor is offering forward compatibility, which is something that is clearly good for the consumer's pockets, it will make Sony look bad in comparison. End of story.

And of course both should, and will have full backwards compatibility moving forward as well. That's not even up for discussion I think.

 

[xamidoxhua]

They won't drop support for PS4 vs PS4 Pro games it makes no sense. I think given the way that hardware is going now with 'PC' style hardware I'd imagine PS5 will be fully backwards compatible with PS4 too (should it take discs).

As to restarting the generation I see it buying them another couple years with the current crop before a rehash, I think 2020 will be launch year for new consoles. 6 years w/ midlife upgrade seems a decent cycle.

 

[MikeyB]

No, man. They're just making the second and minute hands fancier. I think this is the halfway point for this console if not later.

 

[Hahs]

No. Sonys trying to make more bank for their stockholders (the essential excuse), and MS is just following suit because Sony jumped first.

 

[Leithkorias]

At that point it's their fault. If they(Sony/Micro) give the relevant information for consumers and they choose not to see what they're buying then what more do you want them to do? They can't force a customer to know what they're buying.

That's not a big mess.

Even if you buy digital. They could put a splash screen warning telling you this is PSPro exclusive. Press this button to proceed.

It's very easy actually.



How is claiming everything will be forward compatible resetting? That's actually going forward with what the X1 started.

The notion that a dev would make a ps4 pro "only" title is silly though. With the ps4's install base being what it is, it's not worth the graphics/performance bump to cut out the vanilla version and cost yourself all those sales. Its not the same as during the early part of this gen with ps3/4 versions. Nevermind the fact that sonys already said they wont allow it.

Im highly doubtful pro sales will reach vanilla levels of complete global saturation.

 

[truth411]

This is such a weird narative, ps4 pro is a extension but Scorpio is a next gen device. Not even Microsoft is running with that message.

Architecturally Scorpio is a completely new console, that's a fact. There is absolutely nothing in common between Scorpio and Xbox one... Nothing... While Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Architecturally Scorpio is a completely new console, that's a fact. There is absolutely nothing in common between Scorpio and Xbox one... Nothing... While Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

Sarcasm or delusion, I'm not sure.

 

[Inuhanyou]

If the answer isn't already obvious to you then I don't think I can say anything that will convince you, really.

It doesn't matter what Sony said or wants, that's not what sets expectations for consumers. If their competitor is offering forward compatibility, which is something that is clearly good for the consumer's pockets, it will make Sony look bad in comparison. End of story.

And of course both should, and will have full backwards compatibility moving forward as well. That's not even up for discussion I think.

Okay, so you literally have no explanation as to your claim about it being pro consumer besides 'it just is!'

These types are arguments are sounding more and more like always online arguments circa 2012 all over again.

If you can't actually outline why perpetually holding developers back from making more technically advanced games because of some misplaced belief in inferior hardware being perpetually solvent, you have no leg to stand on for it being good in consumer terms either.

Consumers want better games and better advancements as well, and if your claim of forwards compatibility were to come to pass, there would literally be no reason to expect anything better beyond this point besides stagnation, until those who agreed with your viewpoint wised up and realized that its unfeasible.

 

[truth411]

Sarcasm or delusion, I'm not sure.

Fine, there both made by AMD parts.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Fine, there both made by AMD parts.

So delusion then.

You've taken two specs and projected this into "totally new system!" even though it'll use the exact same OS, exact same games and almost certainly the same old jank Jaguar APU.

 

[slapnuts]

No way. These consoles will not be powerful enough to last another 5 years. I'd say they are going to have a life of 2-3 years tops.

Did you just suddenly forget last generation????????? lol

 

[Inuhanyou]

Did you just suddenly forget last generation????????? lol

Last gen made everyone freak out about how consoles were dying because of significantly lower sales, without even considering the fact of hardware stagnation, and Sony and MS largely only kept them on the market for so long because they had to recoup the costs they lost initially blowing the budget on them, selling them at significant losses, especially Sony.

Sony and MS are not going to hold onto PS4 and XB1 anywhere near long as they did PS3 and 360, that i will bet on.

 

[The Praiseworthy]

People are being so wishful for a new console release every 2 years.... I mean are you guys for real?

The same goes for who think that 5 yesrs life cycle is going to be the target for sony... lol they didn't go with 5 years life cycle with the previous consoles and you think they will go with it now after releasing the Pro?

Come on be reasonable guys.

 

[truth411]

So delusion then.

You've taken two specs and projected this into "totally new system!" even though it'll use the exact same OS, exact same games and almost certainly the same old jank Jaguar APU.

Nice straw man, I said architecturally, that means hardware. Software will forever be cross gen effectively with Scorpio.

 

[Gamezone]

Nah, the Scorpio will never be the consoles I want it to be as long as the weak Xbox One is holding it back.

 

[truth411]

Nah, the Scorpio will never be the consoles I want it to be as long as the weak Xbox One is holding it back.

Hardware wise it's totally new
Software wise it will be forever cross gen.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Hardware wise it's totally new
Software wise it will be forever cross gen.

I agree that Scorpio is a completely new redesign, but all that was done to be able to run XBox One games in native 4K.

That's not what I'd call "resetting the clock ".

 

[Gamezone]

Hardware wise it's totally new
Software wise it will be forever cross gen.

Always? It have to let go of the launch Xbox One at some point, right?

 

[truth411]

I agree that Scorpio is a completely new redesign, but all that was done to be able to run XBox One games in native 4K.

That's not what I'd call "resetting the clock ".

Sceptical on that, 6tf isn't enough for 4k AAA gaming. Maybe Indies.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Always? It have to let go of the launch Xbox One at some point, right?

Perpetual forwards compatibility, that's what destroying gens means, and why there are some against that. There is no limitation to when something stops and when it begins

 

[truth411]

Always? It have to let go of the launch Xbox One at some point, right?

Maybe but according to MS, that's not going to happen. No exclusive games for Scorpio correct?

 

[nekkid]

Maybe but according to MS, that's not going to happen. No exclusive games for Scorpio correct?

Actually they have directly addressed an EoL scenario for OG XB1, but have said it won't be for many years. I think Albert Penello said it and didn't quote an exact number.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Actually they have directly addressed an EoL scenario for OG XB1, but have said it won't be for many years. I think Albert Penello said it and didn't quote an exact number.

If Sony puts out a PS5 in 3 years, i sincerely doubt MS will attempt to hold devs to XB1 much longer than that, they don't have the power to do that.

 

[LiquidSolid]

Nice straw man, I said architecturally, that means hardware. Software will forever be cross gen effectively with Scorpio.

You then said there's nothing in common between the two, so I was emphasising the point, using both the OS AND the CPU (which you conveniently ignored), that the Scorpio is a suped up Xbone, just like the Pro is a suped up PS4.

The only reason the Scorpio looks like such a big change is because Microsoft botched the Xbone design so badly.

 

[TNH853]

If Sony puts out a PS5 in 3 years, i sincerely doubt MS will attempt to hold devs to XB1 much longer than that, they don't have the power to do that.

this. xbone gets dropped with the release of the ps5

 

[Matt]

Architecturally Scorpio is a completely new console, that's a fact. There is absolutely nothing in common between Scorpio and Xbox one... Nothing... While Pro is literally a supped up PS4.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[TheMagician]

What are the chances that Scorpio won't have 'One' in its name? So they'll be Xbox One, Xbox One S & Xbox Scorpio (example name).

They market it by saying all Xbox One games are compatible with Xbox Scorpio. New game covers say 'for Xbox One & Xbox Scorpio'.

People might not want an Xbox One but they might want an Xbox Scorpio *wink wink*.

 

[Harmondale]

I agree that Scorpio is a completely new redesign, but all that was done to be able to run XBox One games in native 4K.

That's not what I'd call "resetting the clock ".

But going from 720p xbox 360 to 900p xbone was resetting the clock?? Xbone as it is today is already more and more BC.

Putting aside what M$ told Us with fancy pr Words, Scorpio is a new gen both spec wise and time wise if taking the history Into consideration

So one can either chose to rely on hard facts / history or PR Words, Words that everyone in the gaming Community knows is just the regular bs to keep customers and stakeholders happy

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Sceptical on that, 6tf isn't enough for 4k AAA gaming. Maybe Indies.

I am confident that Scorpio will be able to render most XBOX One games in native 4k.

That said, I am also confident that technical solutions like dynamic resolution or checkerboard rendering will be in place as I doubt that they will run in native 4k all the time. This especially includes games like Quantum Break or basically most Frostbite Engine games which struggle to maintain 900p on XBOX One.

And you know what, I am totally fine with that.

But going from 720p xbox 360 to 900p xbone was resetting the clock?? Xbone as it is today is already more and more BC.

Putting aside what M$ told Us with fancy pr Words, Scorpio is a new gen both spec wise and time wise if taking the history Into consideration

The difference between old and current gen consoles shouldn't be reduced to resolution. What BC has to do with all of this is beyond my imagination.

 

[xealo]

It's just extending the life span of the current generation a bit to keep up with PC graphics a bit better, but it's still the same generation.

The real reset will come with the PS5 and the eventual newer cpu design it'll have.

 

[Kayant]

Of course they are doing both, but whatever resources Sony is spending on developing the Pro could've been used to develop one or two more 1st party exclusives. Exclusive content is a more compelling reason than marginally better hardware for people to buy your console. It's not an effective use of resources by Sony and their first party exclusive lineup has steadily declined over the years.

So computer engineers and the like are now game designers, artists etc.

Games take what on average 2-3yrs? Depending on studio sizes/game size plus you add the fact dev times have increased this gen and some of their projects have been cancelled. In addition to the many delays they have had so far with the fact they have another platform to support(PSVR) we can see why things are the way they are compared to previous gen.

 

[Marlenus]

If we make it to 2020 (I use to say 2018 but this mid-gen refreshes fucked that up though think I said 2017 for MS at some point after how the XBO turned out) I think it's safe to assume we'll see consoles that are more around twice that FLOP count. 15TF at a minimum four years from now shouldn't be out of the question.

Let's do the maths. Pitcairn is a 2.5 Tflop GPU in PC trim and Polaris 10 in the same segment is a 5.8 Tflop GPU in PC trim. Assuming 7nm enables the same scaling from 14nm as 14nm did from 28nm then it would mean this segment of GPUs will have around 13.5Tflops in PC trim so a guess of 10-12Tflops in console trim. Factor in power savings from HBM being used to boost clocks and I can see 15 Tflops or there abouts.

Over a 6 - 7 year gen that would be just over an 8x increase vs PS4 which is pretty standard for a generational leap.