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Vulture: E-mail chain between Tilda Swinton and Margaret Cho on Dr. Strange casting
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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old manatee
Banned
It's the exclamation marks that get me..
"We can totally email and we can be private!"
What a snake.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
this feeling needs to be explored a bit more, i think. i can imagine the catch 22 from one perspective, where if you ask a person of color's advice then you're asking them to speak for their entire race / treating them like a 'house asian' / 'racial confessor' and are being a privileged white asshole, and on the other if she makes no attempt to build bridges, help understand the objections ... then she's a privileged white asshole.
This piece was eye opening on this exact topic: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...aging_white_emotions_in_the_age_of_trump.html
i've read this piece 3 times and each time i want to draw even further into my liberal white cocoon because there is no good that i can do.
The difficulty would be casting the right Asian woman. Asian women have been pigeon holed so much, any well known Asian actress would invoke the dragon lady stereotype.
Like, some people recommended Michelle Yeoh who is awesome but would inevitably be looked at through that lens because of her prior work. Of course, whining that it's too hard to cast isn't a good enough reason to not even try but I understand their desire to have someone both marketable and relatively non-offensive.
The best way, imo, would have been to cast an older Asian woman, much like Madam Gao (Wai Ching-Ho) from Daredevil.
Yep. Swinton kind of set up Cho for failure, too, knowing what Cho would say and knowing what to say in response. Probably made Cho feel silly, and so she lashes out.
I think it's weird that Swinton "consults" Asian women she doesn't know to get Asian approval for things. That's like if I e-mailed Salma Hayek to discuss if it would be OK to throw my daughter a quinceanera. That's just weird and comes off as ignorant.
That said, Cho comes off as petty and small here. Even if Swinton was being rude, the place to call her out for it would be privately, not like this.
That said, Cho comes off as petty and small here. Even if Swinton was being rude, the place to call her out for it would be privately, not like this.
NHarmonic.
Member
Love Tilda. That said this is kind if a difficult topic, but i respect Marvel for doing what Tilda explains on the e-mails. It'd have been very very cliche to portrait that character as it was on the comic, and she nailed it so well with her performance, it was very unique...
UncleSporky
Member
I thought it was funny that pretty much the whole email chain is nice and respectful and amiable, but at the end of Tilda's first email she's like
Like whoa that's going to kind of a weird place in tone all of a sudden.
Like whoa that's going to kind of a weird place in tone all of a sudden.
bearythebear
Member
So the argument is that they avoided casting an Asian actor or actress cuz writers can only write stereotypical Asian characters?... Lol
Count Dookkake
Member
Read the emails and was not particularly surprised to find that Cho was exaggerating pretty much all her claims.
Can't say I've ever been all that impressed by Cho, except for when she was heroically eating loads at Ground Zero. All-American Girl indeed.
Can't say I've ever been all that impressed by Cho, except for when she was heroically eating loads at Ground Zero. All-American Girl indeed.
She's Scottish.
ratcliffja
Member
So that's why I like her so much. It all makes sense now.
Palette Swap
Member
One thing I can appreciate here is that for an ancient beast that doesn't do social media, Swinton is that rare celebrity who doesn't put her foot in her mouth when faced with a diversity conversation and tries to shut it down, but approaches it respectfully and thoughtfully.
I'm missing context, but I assume this didn't come entirely out of the blue, with Tilda's agent checking the yellow pages for an "Asian issues ambassador".
And yeah, even if the dragon lady reasoning is a bit fallacious, Swinton was the highlight of the movie.
I'm missing context, but I assume this didn't come entirely out of the blue, with Tilda's agent checking the yellow pages for an "Asian issues ambassador".
And yeah, even if the dragon lady reasoning is a bit fallacious, Swinton was the highlight of the movie.
social media is the problem
"Don't tell anybody" could just as easily be because Marvel is extremely tight lipped about their movies in production not because she was ashamed of having the conversation. Hell she initiated the conversation which says a lot about Tilda.
She even says in the first email she'd rather listen than talk about it in public which I think is totally fine.
Without casting judgement I understand the pickle Marvel was in with this casting and think they made the best out of a shitty situation. Saying they whitewashed the movie is ridiculous, there's so much fucking diversity in Doctor Strange it's not even subtle. There's a ton of minorities in the film.
She even says in the first email she'd rather listen than talk about it in public which I think is totally fine.
Without casting judgement I understand the pickle Marvel was in with this casting and think they made the best out of a shitty situation. Saying they whitewashed the movie is ridiculous, there's so much fucking diversity in Doctor Strange it's not even subtle. There's a ton of minorities in the film.
Lee Chaolan
Member
Oh god, yes. I love Benedict, but Tilda just absolutely stole the show.
Also agree on many of the points on both sides. Seen Cho live and I love the majority of Swinton's movies.
Byakuya769
Member
Dick move. Seemed like a nice and helpful conversation. If the move is to talk in confidence, and then shit on the person publicly, how likely are these conversation to happen in the future?
Yeah, I think this is largely a unfortunate roundabout way of circumventing what would have been an undoubtedly major problem for China's censorship board to get the movie passed for the country. Regardless of how well Swinton ultimately played the part, and even earlier from the perspective of regardless of who they even cast for the Ancient One in the first place, it was always going to be a problematic role for that reason alone.
I don't know if there's a good solution to a situation like that. I'm not even sure there's really an acceptable least-bad solution.
Doing what now 🤔
excelsiorlef
Member
So she can't talk about Asian issues and what it means for her to be an Asian woman within the context of her art without then accepting that that means she know has to be the Asian woman people come to for the "Asian Opinion"
That's a ridiculous burden to put on her.
I am openly trans and my art frequently reflects that but I am not comfortable being the person people automatically seek out for the Trans opinion. Fuck there are like 4 or 5 people that only know me as the person they can talk to about trans issues (and this includes other trans people) like the entire sum of my relationship with them is that "trans person they can talk to", nothing more. I do it because I don't want to be an asshole but it's stressful sometimes and somewhat dehumanizing on a certain level. So to say that being open about your issues as a minority means you have to now be responsible for providing everyone who asks the "Minority point of view" is brutally unfair.
Hellll no, Cho is a fucking snake who tried to throw Swinton under the bus thinking her reps wouldn't release the emails. They rightly called her bluff.
Baffles me that Cho would think it's a good move to trash a legendary actress who reached out to her. Instead of building a friendship she's now thrown it away.
old manatee
Banned
There is a way to deal with this situation without being a two-faced creep:
There was a whitewashing criticism in casting a white actor in a historically white role?
that's true enough
excelsiorlef
Member
I made zero comment on the tactics used in the conversation...
This was a direct response to someone saying if Cho didn't want to play the orle of The Asian opinion then she shouldn't talk about it in her work.
So my reply was merely to say that asking minorities not to talk openly about their issues without being willing to be personal minority counsellors to anyone who asks is extremely unfair.
Vulture updated with a comment from Cho.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't see how that necessarily follows. From the way that first email is written, it seems like Tilda wrote to her because she heard that criticism was coming from Cho (among others). She didn't just pick someone who she thought was the Chief Asian Representative, she picked a person who had vocally made critiques of the casting to talk with that specific person.
I don't see what's really wrong with that. If you make a movie with an Asian supporting character, and I (as someone with Asian descent) critique your portrayal of Asian men in your movie as being a "Mighty Whitey/Mellow Yellow" trope, it'd be natural to contact me and try to have a discussion with me. That's not a burden (especially if you write in your closing "Tell me to fuck off if you feel like it."), I chose to put my commentary out there and I can choose to respond. Big deal.
So...
Tilda asked for a private conversation and advice from Margaret, Margaret agreed.
They have a polite exchange and seem to come to agreement about the issue.
Margaret later publicly reveals she had a private conversation with Tilda - against their agreement - saying it made her uncomfortable and felt weird - maybe even a little racist.
Tilda releases emails, showing Margaret to be a little bit two-faced.
Margaret now points to the emails as a defense, saying that it was a positive discussion.
Cho doesn't come out of this looking good.
Tilda asked for a private conversation and advice from Margaret, Margaret agreed.
They have a polite exchange and seem to come to agreement about the issue.
Margaret later publicly reveals she had a private conversation with Tilda - against their agreement - saying it made her uncomfortable and felt weird - maybe even a little racist.
Tilda releases emails, showing Margaret to be a little bit two-faced.
Margaret now points to the emails as a defense, saying that it was a positive discussion.
Cho doesn't come out of this looking good.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
A lot of American media is "historically white." Iconic comic book characters are all "historically white."
I think that casting Benedict Cumberbatch fulfills the Mighty Whitey trope, and it is pretty damning and hypocritical of Marvel to somewhat acknowledge the Dragon Lady trope but go full speed ahead with a caricature that is just as--if not more-- offensive.
The Faceless Master
Member
poor maggy.
got houe asian'd by tilda and now she's about to get assaulted by the white media and marvel fans for not wanting to just be the model minority and fall in line and support women.
and that's why the phrase 'feminism is for white women' is popular.
got houe asian'd by tilda and now she's about to get assaulted by the white media and marvel fans for not wanting to just be the model minority and fall in line and support women.
and that's why the phrase 'feminism is for white women' is popular.
Brainfreeze
Member
I think it's more-so that they felt they couldn't write this specific character in a way that's accurate to the comics without evoking some Asian stereotypes or tropes. The movie still features Asian characters that aren't racist characitures, so they're clearly capable of writing nonstereotypical Asian characters.
I'm not familiar with the comics, so I can't back-up whether the source material really needs those tropes to feel genuine or not, but what I do know is that this is a very complicated topic with a lot of opinions and if Marvel's just trying to avoid outrage, I can't really fault them too much for this choice. The actress they chose still killed it, and seemed to do a great job of evoking the spirit of the original character.
Edit:
Benedict Cumberbatch literally looks exactly like Doctor Strange and he's a good actor so I honestly would be a little upset if they'd casted anyone else in that role.
excelsiorlef
Member
You know what's productive calling a woman a cunt....
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Exactly.
People out here trying to act like Swinton was already well acquainted with Cho prior to sending the email. There is even someone in this very thread insinuating that randomly asking Asian American personalities about their opinion and treating them as a monolith for criticisms that you can very well Google yourself is a kosher thing to do. Speechless.
Dude. The fuck
This.
The Faceless Master said:
Joke reply? Cho should've kept their conversation private. There is nothing in those e-mails that was worth shitting on Swenton for.
Cho has a point about Asian actors needing to be casted in more roles (something Steven Yeun has even stated while being a star of the Walking Dead). Cho is right about there being outrage about Ghost in the Shell and ScarJo being casted as Major.
Cho doesn't have the right to then shit on Swenton who is like "well Marvel tried to make the movie diverse, and for the most part as an old woman, I checked that box" for not falling in line with "yeah, Marvel fucked up. I shouldn't have been given the role, sorry."
The Faceless Master
Member
hey mags i dont know how this social media thingy works so you can represent all the orientals for me. why are so many of you people upset that yet another oriental role has been whitewashed? at least it's a woman this time! girl power!!!
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Why would you run something throw a search engine when you can ask the person who made a piece of commentary directly? Why is that a bad thing to try to engage people and their ideas directly?
The Faceless Master
Member
yep, more diverse beause Marvel definitely is lacking in white women roles.
Count Dookkake
Member
She has claimed that she spent some time at the WTC sucking off emergency personnel and volunteers.
With no sarcasm, I say that is among the most patriotic acts done by a civilian for this country.
She made a joke like 14 years ago about giving blowjobs to first responders. Very surprised to see this of all things brought up
The Faceless Master
Member
if this year has taught us anything, it should be that there aren't always two valid sides and some ideas just don't need engaging with directly.
old manatee
Banned
Hey Tilde! I'm a huge fan! We can totes talk in private and I won't throw you under the bus!!11!!! I've been a big fan since Dr. Strange!!!
excelsiorlef
Member
And it's funny because you can be polite in an e-mail and still feel make someone uncomfortable. And you can be polite directly and still be really uncomfortable and express that later.
I mean for all Tilda saying she cares (and I'm sure he does care) she still pulled a trivializing I'm an older woman from Scotland so I'm not really represented much in cinema either. Why the fuck would you say that in context of asian people in film, that doesn't signify that she gets it, it signifies that she thinks it is maybe not that big of deal. She also basically kept making excuses for why she thinks taking the role was ok, so what did Tilda actually learn in the end?
The conversation is polite but polite doesn't mean productive or good.
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