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The argument that sex, (in most cases sexism) sells games is inherently flawed
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
Arkage
Banned
Ok we're on the same page. I agree the hyperbole/shaming that criticism is often covered in can be overwhelming and destructive, especially in this age where people are often trying to grab as much attention as possible through inflammatory 140-character jabs.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
How do you think it can be achieved then? By shutting down all discussion with the same excuses and rhetoric we've seen over and over, because that happens quite often. And is a issue with why these things can't progress pass feminism 101 into the nitty gritty.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah but the difficulty is what I asked about above, the remark of "don't compare video game characters to real women". Even although that's what is being done to criticise them as being "unrealistic" with dress attire...?
I also questioned above about how CE will address women with different views, and as we know by now have suggested a few times for feelings on cosplay and why sexualisation can lead to females enjoying certain characters for other reasons than males. This often tends to go ignored, and even if it's not just from me I rarely see CE tackle some of these debating points from other posters.
It just seems to be a case of only interacting if the demographic is "straight white males". Anyone else won't get considered.
The irony there being you literally disregard, marginalise and throw out voices from women simply because they don't adhere to a stringent one track hypothesis around a complex and multilayered topic.
If we could only meet somewhere in the middle understanding the need for diversity is for actual diversity. Constructive criticism and positive feedback will bear this, not shaming, name calling and some of the all or nothing stances on display at times.
For sure on Twitter. We're on GAF though and we're still trying to challenge and tease out further explanations from the topic creator. CE might feel under a bit of pressure, but it is what it is when you create a topic that's going to have diverse opinion. That's primarily why GAF exists!
Are you describing yourself and what you do?
I'm not an expert with all the answers.I just know I don't like your "scorched earth" approach as audioboxer outlined in his last couple of posts.
plasmawave
Banned
You sure showed me. If you wanna defend a racist behavior from someone who has a history of defending a racist youtuber then go ahead.
Nope.
B-but i was talking about popular console games bacause those are mostly the ones with actual characters and narrative,being crticized and discussed in this very thread
Sure, single player games are not as condusive to that kind of thing (families don't typically read books together), but multiplayer games are already becoming more popular than single player games, people like to play games together, a lot of older people are simply intimidated by them because they were never really exposed to them.
Stallion Dan
Member
Every game with exposed female characters gets loads of free press from it though, which in turn gets sales.
Same reason 9/10 pop stars wear next to nothing in their videos, so "OMG watch this video it is outrageous!".
Same reason 9/10 pop stars wear next to nothing in their videos, so "OMG watch this video it is outrageous!".
Vigilant Walrus
Member
And they are. Purposeful and intentional attraction is sexualization. What is titillation for some is not that for others. It's a flawed argument to orchestrate a point that surface shallow levels of sexual expression is the base moniker of what defines sexualization. It's bullshit.
These characters are designed to be sexually attractive. If the audience is sexually attracted to the character, then that is sexualization regardless of how low or high brow that expression may be.
As I explained previously, going on about the usage of what the term means is insulting in the sea of varied and cultural ethos all the layers and levels of human sexuality depending on the culture, customs, upbringing and personal preferences. To shoehorn this and shit down the mouths of everyone who doesn't buy into this childish confined space of this is "sexualization, and this isn't sexualization" is a bunch of bullshit.
There is a fluidity and interpersonal expression in the perception of what it means to be sexual for human beings. That is why you have these discussions. Because many people disagree about the fundamentals and they respond differently to basic stimuli. It's insulting to tell other people what their sexuality is and isn't, as well as telling them what they see as sexualized fetish isn't.
thesoapster
Member
I personally subscribe to the teachings of Robert California - everything is sex.
EventHorizon
Member
Sex does sell video games. There are plenty of games like Bayonetta and DOA I would not have bought if not for sexy characters. If you want to have an honest discussion about this topic, you can't blow your credibility by denying reality.
molnizzle
Member
You could let women take charge in these discussions, for starters. In threads like these you just come across as another man with extremely specific criteria for how women should be portrayed in popular media. I doubt that there are many "feminism 101" professors who appreciate that.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Nah they ruined him in the remake
Both Bayonetta games were flops, sadly (and it's somewhat "different" approach to sexuality was likely a part of that if anything), and DOA does well but hardly lights up the charts vs the actual best selling franchises (it's on the list, but below a lot of others), so they're not really helping the case.
Nevermind that in DOA's case I'm pretty sure the main "sex" focused part of the franchise (beach volleyball) is much more niche than the mainline fighting game part of it.
But...again, I really don't think it is helpful to take "sex sells" as sex (and a particular sort of it), completely alone, unfiltered, undisguised, etc. sells the most of anything...
You don't have to think that to believe that sex sells.
TBC...Bayonetta is in a niche genre from a small developer and pushes the sex angle in a very obvious and strong way.
EDIT: You get something mainstream that pushes peoples buttons in the right way while not also making plenty uncomfortable and you are going to help get/keep people interested.
Audioboxer
Member
People still watch music videos? Now that's outrageous
Funny thing about DOA is didn't the recent one just skip the west entirely to avoid the inevitable flak? I mean it's able to be imported in full English. Games like this have always received the "angry mums and dads", but I think in recent years with social media as large as it is we're well past the days of Jack Thompson curating some drama. Now things do get quite vicious online, which is one thing I hate seeing. I'm not even talking about the unfortunate trolls and nasties, but the campaigns that would probably start aimed at something like DOA calling everyone and anyone buying it some pervert or sexist. Like I spoke about earlier.
Astral Dog
Member
I thought he was annoying.mummy dudeWe can all agree that the sexiness of the Prince helped move some copies of PoP.
crazy monkey
Banned
Sex sells is true for lots of things in this world not just video game.
EventHorizon
Member
Doesn't change the fact that those games would have sold less with more modest characters. Sex doesn't guarantee success. It just guarantees more attention and with it likely more sales. As another example, I never bought Lollipop Chainsaw, but I definitely gave it a second and third look because of the main character.
Then it's a meaningless statement though. Yeah, "sex sells", so does gameplay, graphics and general hype and marketing. The actual unspoken implication when people say this statement is "sex sells more", which is when it starts to fall apart if you actually look at what games do sell in massive amounts, and what games fail or are extremely niche.
And then you have people take it so far that they imply MGS5 and FF15 would be flops if Quiet and Cindy didn't have their tits out and it just gets ridiculous.
No, it skipped the west because the developers realised there was nowhere near enough interest to justify localising it. Which is pretty ironic when "sex sells".
Audioboxer
Member
It is localised though. The Asian copies are fully in English from what I gather. People are importing those copies anyway and playing in English.
Seems to have sold decently from imports btw
https://www.destructoid.com/dead-or-alive-xtreme-3-sold-well-outside-japan-358288.phtml
Asian version is in English.
?! Not really. It only looks that way if you insist on separating all the parts of a product out and saying that it was really this one selling it and not that one, because in a completely different context something similar didn't work.
And you totally can have sex be part of the profile of a mainstream product. Look at cosmetics/fashion. Look at TV. Look at music. Look at Overwatch. Look at....but if niche sexy products don't sell, sex doesn't sell...okay.
That isn't the implication at all, and the belief that it is, is part of the problem. Saying silly things like Dead or Alive Extreme would beat Call of Duty every year if sex sells is a ridiculous argument that you have to be pretty disingenuous to even pretend to put forward.
I'm pretty sure people's eyes are instinctively drawn to images of men and women in states of undress. Sex puts eyes on the product, discussion--including controversy--puts the product in minds, and just being a known quantity to the consumer, especially in more competitive markets, is a big advantage. Nobody's saying sex is the only factor in sales, so there's no need to talk about how Pokemon isn't sexy so it can't be true.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
That's not much of an argument. And vague "I work in marketing" mumbo jumbo still doesn't convince me that sexy female designs is a bad thing.
What to know something personal? That cosplayer friend I have, that I studied for years with, in the trade I work with? She got stalked. By a friend of a friend. And no one took it seriously because "Well she dressed as sexy characters and provoked him she could just stop it if she just stopped...". A girl who doesn't even like anything other than Nintendo games. A girl who was stalked for weeks because she dressed as Sexy Link on Halloween. He followed her on her bus ride home for weeks and he lived a town over. A girl we had to wait in the parking lot of the Smash Bros tourney she played in, because she was afraid he'd be there. The security team? "She just has to not dress sexy" He was there. Nothing happened. And guess what. She cosplayed sexy. And felt happy and proud.
You know what she's obssessed with right now? Olivia from Pokemon Moon. Because she's sexy. She does sexy Link, sexy Pikachu, sexy Samus, sexy Peach. She loves sexy.
The fact that I'm seeing a legit IRL friend of mine, the sweetest person I know, get denied her voice and tastes by a bunch of dudes who think that women don't want to see sexy ladies in games or that it's a problem, is profoundly infuriating to me.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It really feels like the thread title is about A, but then the topic veers violently to talk about B instead.
Eden's "huurrr durrrr you disagree with me you're an idiot" way of discussing with other people does not help matters too :/
Eden's "huurrr durrrr you disagree with me you're an idiot" way of discussing with other people does not help matters too :/
Because he can't win the sex doesn't sell argument because it's obviously bullshit, so he turns it into a sexualization argument.
Tbh, I'm still stuck on the first page and the mix of "anime fan sticks head in sand and says nothing is sexy," and the strange insistence that "sex sells" is all about a particular kind of "sex" content. That and the idea that if it sells, it must sell in all cases and in all contexts. Otherwise it doesn't sell.
I think I'm the only one still reeling from the Fire Emblem Awakening didn't sell on sex bit.
I prefer to think this is the actual reason behind it skipping the west, but
1. it was localized for Asian region in English (though text localization is just one part of localization costs)
2. http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2015/11/24/why-the-next-dead-or-alive-xtreme-beach-volleyball-game-wont-leave-japan They kinda hinted at that female sexualization issue played a part too.
EventHorizon
Member
Sex sells more for games that don't have a lot else going for it. A great game isn't going to be made better by promoting sex, but a middling game will.
Gameplay, graphics, story and so on are all more important, but those are fundamentally different from sex in one key area. Those are all really hard to do. Having a sexy character isn't. A developer can be guaranteed that they'll get attention from sex. They might hope that the rest of the game comes together, but look at all the less than stellar metacritic scores for proof that isn't always true. Bayonetta would have all but disappeared from gaming consciousness if it wasn't for the sexy lead.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Women are absolutely allowed to participate in these discussions and often do what are you talking about? I even noted how the context of things like female artists making sexualized content with their music is entirely different from something like Quiet and thus not a very good comparison.
Audioboxer
Member
She's not going to get denied her voice (not even CE will sit her down for feminism 101), and secondly if anyone behaves like that encourage to report to the police. Don't take any risks and don't allow such behaviour to continue to be normalised in that person. That deserves an actual descriptor of perverse if anything was to. Stalking isn't "boys being boys". It's predatory and planned.
However, yes, there is some hypocrisy that this same person will get vehemently defended as simply engaging with and expressing their own sexual freedom and desires to consume sexualised characters, but if you have a different body organ then it's straight to conversations of sexism, misogyny, perverse goings on and more. No nuance allowed for the hundred of words I wrote earlier about reasons for why males and females can consume and display sexuality in different ways. Which is why I think many posters in topics like this will outright ignore certain female voices or refuse to accept they exist if they don't adhere to strict narratives.
It's what makes the topic far from as simple as some of the arguments put forward. It's not just "straight white males" as the first post refers to that enjoy sexual characters/content. If anything that is the exclusionary stance to take. Most will happily be on board for more diversity in the industry, but most will not be too chuffed at voices being trampled on simply as they make it more challenging for one dimensional narratives to be pushed.
Again, you're not paying attention to the difference between sexual attractiveness and sexualization.
I only ever see "sex sells" used in defense of stuff like characters with appearances that make no sense in the context they're in outside of sex appeal. The only reason to use that justification (beyond a bypass of any actual discussion) is if the person genuinely believes that that character design is making a very notable difference to sales beyond a couple of % either way.
Again, if that isn't what people who spam "sex sells" to any analysis or criticism of certain designs mean, then it's a literally meaningless thing to say, or an intentional attempt to derail. I mean, even shitty things frequently sell on the basis of morbid curiosity of just how shitty they are.
Lolwut, Bayonetta would still be a masterpiece of the character action genre regardless of how "sexy" the lead is. Setting aside that the gameplay is inherently derived from the protagonist's nature... I find Bayonetta the kind of game that muddies the water in this regard because it actually makes sexual themes a central part of it's aesthetic, style and world, rather than just randomly throwing them in for no reason (it's also not really comparable to much else because it's so singular). Outside a few awkward things I'm with the people who believe that Beyonetta actually does making sexuality a major part of the game correctly. Bayonetta's pseudo nudity is a central aspect of the aesthetic and not just a random half-naked character thrown into a world where everyone else important dresses "normally".
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Actually adding this to the OP.
Square2015
Member
When is Japan ever going to have this conversation...
This seems to be a largely Western-only discourse.
This seems to be a largely Western-only discourse.
I mean, I don't see why sex need be reduced to classic cases of 'insert nearly naked, huge busted woman with no character into the game.'
This whole thread, that has been my chief point. I find those "classic" cases off-putting personally, but I do see sex enhancing the appeal of a product to me and other people in other ways.
The idea that the 'sex' in 'sex sells' must be 'gratuitous sexualization of female characters, after a certain classical fashion' is just bonkers to me.
So no, I haven't been trying to defend Quiet and such. And I still think it is silly to say sex doesn't sell.
...
That said, I do also think the leap from game with classically sexy lady didn't sell well to classically sexualized women don't sell is fallacious.
Bayonetta sell less than Devil May Cry
DoAXBV sell less than regular Dead or Alive or Beach Spikers
Senran Kagura sell like shit compared to action games
Making your main character a black trans woman gives you as much publicity as playing the objectification card.
If anything, doing extreme objectification only puts your game further into a niche
She will do her sexy cosplay regardless of how sexy the character is ?
Ok, got it. She is awesome.
Now lets get more normal people in games please.
And by normal people I mean, you can have one people who loves to dress like sexy pikachu, but you will also need a non attractive woman and lots of other types of people because when a dev like Yoko Taro says "I love women" and don't put diversity of women in their games it means that he is saying "i love hot women in high heels which I can easily see the underwear".
It is like when you have a minority. If you are going to have a black dude in an afro who loves fried chicken and can't swim, you will NEED at least 4 more black dudes who are outside of this qualities to show that you don't think every black person has an afro, loves fried chicken and can't swim
DoAXBV sell less than regular Dead or Alive or Beach Spikers
Senran Kagura sell like shit compared to action games
Making your main character a black trans woman gives you as much publicity as playing the objectification card.
If anything, doing extreme objectification only puts your game further into a niche
She will do her sexy cosplay regardless of how sexy the character is ?
Ok, got it. She is awesome.
Now lets get more normal people in games please.
And by normal people I mean, you can have one people who loves to dress like sexy pikachu, but you will also need a non attractive woman and lots of other types of people because when a dev like Yoko Taro says "I love women" and don't put diversity of women in their games it means that he is saying "i love hot women in high heels which I can easily see the underwear".
It is like when you have a minority. If you are going to have a black dude in an afro who loves fried chicken and can't swim, you will NEED at least 4 more black dudes who are outside of this qualities to show that you don't think every black person has an afro, loves fried chicken and can't swim
themaskedndi
Member
I'm a woman, for the record. I mentioned that I worked in marketing not to say that sexy female designs are always bad, but to try to dispel the idea that "sex sells" is classic marketing wisdom. We only use sex in marketing when a client explicitly asks for it.
There are plenty of designs I like that others here might deem as sexy or oversexualized. I love the way Bayonetta oozes confidence. The theatrical, Black Swan-esque outfit that 2B wears really appeals to me as a former ballet dancer. I'm a straight woman who bought the original DOA Xtreme; I'm certainly not advocating that sexy costumes need to be banned outright. I just hate the way people use "sex sells" to act like developers have to include sexy outfits, or that those outfits are beyond reproach.
My sympathies to your friend. It often feels like women can never win no matter what we do.
My personal problem about sexualisatiom/sex sells is that it's almost always the female characters that get the treatment, while male characters get as de-sexualised as possible. This is especially prevalent in some Japanese games, but it's notable in West too. It brings about a weird disconnected in how the media treats female characters versus how it treats male ones. Obviously, there's exceptions.
I usually feel like (and this is personal opinion!), that when a piece of media goes for sexualisation/sex sells argument, while still trying to be otherwise serious product, it feels like the dev is not confident on their product, and tries to entice customers with unnecessary elements. It's a bit other story if the game is actively about sex. In a sense, I have more respect for Sengan Kagura/DOAX since they don't shy away from what they are, in comparison to Quiet from MGSV, which just feels like Kojima tried to sell the game on completely disconnected sex appeal for no reason.
I usually feel like (and this is personal opinion!), that when a piece of media goes for sexualisation/sex sells argument, while still trying to be otherwise serious product, it feels like the dev is not confident on their product, and tries to entice customers with unnecessary elements. It's a bit other story if the game is actively about sex. In a sense, I have more respect for Sengan Kagura/DOAX since they don't shy away from what they are, in comparison to Quiet from MGSV, which just feels like Kojima tried to sell the game on completely disconnected sex appeal for no reason.
Chronospherics
Member
But those heroically idealised characters are still sexualised. They're still made to be appealing to the opposite sex. Let's face it, the majority of players playing Tomb Raider, aren't female, and they don't like Lara's design because they want to be Lara. She has sex appeal, whichever way you spin it, and I think it's naive to deny that as a factor in why she's a popular character.
Sex still motivates these character designs, even if they aren't overly sexaulsied. Personally I think that's okay, but you will eventually have people complain about these idealised representations of characters, in the same way that it's common to complain about the idealised representations of women in magazines and televised adverts.
I'm not saying that argument is incorrect. In fact you could even argue some merit to the over sexualisation of someone like R.Mika or even Hot Ryu. I can't imagine there are many men or women that compare themselves to those characters, because they are both, utterly riddiculous. Yet you could argue that characters like Nathan Drake and Lara set unrealistic standards for body-image.
Sex still motivates these character designs, even if they aren't overly sexaulsied. Personally I think that's okay, but you will eventually have people complain about these idealised representations of characters, in the same way that it's common to complain about the idealised representations of women in magazines and televised adverts.
I'm not saying that argument is incorrect. In fact you could even argue some merit to the over sexualisation of someone like R.Mika or even Hot Ryu. I can't imagine there are many men or women that compare themselves to those characters, because they are both, utterly riddiculous. Yet you could argue that characters like Nathan Drake and Lara set unrealistic standards for body-image.
Actualy it is both.
Only hot witches became naked while fighting.... which means just Bayonetta and Jeanne
edit :
I would love to hear your explanation why Hot Ryu is utterly riddiculous
Audioboxer
Member
What is your descriptor for "desexualised as possible"? If you're using your male brain to project that women must want their male characters to be running around in a Borat thong that's often not what is going to "sell". I'm a bit tired to rehash posts I made very early on but often what stimulates the female mind isn't always 1:1 with the male, speaking generally. Confidence, strength, height, humour, quick wit, success and other tropes often come before outright nudity for many females. Imagination is more important for getting to sex, than jumping right to here's a six pack and a penis. Hence the skewed numbers of females who prefer romance novels over men who's equivalent may be "guy magazines". Titillation through imagery has often been/skewed to a male inclined fantasy.
This is not to say it isn't for females too. That's never the point of speaking generally. Of course females enjoy nudity and male bodies that are objectively fit and beautiful. However, we do have a lot of data in the fields of marketing and human behavioural evolution to fine tune and understand what tends to tick the boxes in amongst a large audience base, generally speaking. So I really am intrigued to hear what this "desexualisation of male characters" is now that I've read it twice in here.
EventHorizon
Member
Bayonetta is so great that Bayonetta 2 wouldn't have been made if Nintendo hadn't stepped in to help out.
Bayonetta has more going for it than sex, but the sexy lead is nothing but extra free advertising. All these arguments against sex sells boils down to setting up the strawman that sex is the only factor. That is not the case being made. The case being made is that sex is a guarantee easy way to get more attention for a game than would have existed without it.
And yet, because of her "sexyness" the game entered a niche that made it sell much less than worst games on the same genre
As a gay man, almost no male character designs have any sort of sexual appeal for me in games. Obviously I don't know how straight females might perceive this, but it's my personal experience. Closest character design in maybe last 10 years in terms of male sexual appeal is the shirtless Ryu from SF5.
Appeal isn't only about design. It's also about how it's framed in the game, and how the camera treats the character.
There isn't really that much difference between the two. We want our heroes to be attractive the same as we want them to be brave and strong. I'd argue they're one and the same. To be heroic is to also be attractive and attractive means sex appeal.
Thing is, I agree with that in itself; in some hypothetical where two characters are otherwise the same, the one that's generally considered more physically attractive will appeal to a larger audience (and frankly that's something that goes way beyond the subject of this thread). Except the only time I see "sex sells" get used outside of threads like this is as an way to defend "classic sexy" characters (that happen to almost always be women).