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[Black_Sun]

17's power is bullshit because Super doesn't even bother trying to rationalize anything anymore. Yeah Z had silly power scaling but they at least bothered to make up reasons for why they received a dramatic power boost, and why it was something that they couldn't have achieved previously - which yes can still be something stupid like Gohan sitting on his ass. At lease the Kai ritual was SOMETHING that couldn't do before, and that's basically how I accepted the SSG ritual.

As far as we know 17 just..... protects an island and fights military guys which is exactly on par with the warriors of the Dragon Ball era. "They trained" just isn't a satisfying answer, all warriors train but can never allowed to advance for it - even RoTaS training is portrayed to have limited gains.

Some people can just accept that it's all bullshit and sure you're right, but Super rationale really doesn't even try and it's not at all the same. And when Super has to juggle its frame of reference around Blue being a godly and terrifying power that literally frightens gods from other universes, to being some scrub trainin' form... it's a bit of a mess to watch at times. Really wish they didn't forget SSJ3 exists and that they'd quit trivializing Blue.

Everyone has different potential that can come from training so everyone will get different gains out of it


Android 17's training potential > 18's potential > Freeza's potential > Gohan's potential>Gotten and Trunks' potential> Goku and Vegeta's potential


Buu probably has even higher potential to Android 17 so if all these people are this strong with training then it makes sense that EoZ Goku would want to train Uub in 5 years because he realizes that even someone with Kid Buu's potential if trained(especially by him) would be a monster in power

 

[Nightbird]

I for one am very happy about 17 being able to stand up against SSB.

I'm loving this arc because so many characters are made relevant again, and moves Super away from being the Goku (and sometimes Vegeta) show.

I don't care about powerlevels being rendered useless, because imo powerlevels fucked up Dragon Ball.

So yeah, I'm more than happy about how 17 has been portrayed in this episode (in multiple ways )

 

[GuessMyUserName]

But the Frieza training bit wasn't even there in the movie that Toriyama wrote.

Plus how in the fucking hell would farming a ginyu tier dude help ?

It made things faster sure, but 17 had 10 years, it took Frieza 4 months.... You can't deny that's a significant difference.

And I can absolutely understand why you didn't like how they handled it, that's fair. I just don't think this particular argument is grounded.

17 is not a natural being, and he's the only one so far that has shown the ability to match Blue. Training on his own to better use his energy, or training himself against energy beams like Goku was doing... You don't have to train against anybody. It's slower if you're alone.

Like I said, the bones they toss don't have to make sense, so long as they at least toss *something* out there. And yeah not being in the move is why I specified "in the show version"! Which again was still god awful but I do appreciate that they at least attempted to patch that up in the Super version of the story.

They just straight-up haven't bothered to say anything to explain 17, you can theorize what you want but it's no doubt frustrating to accept in comparison to other bullshit power scaling.

 

[Slaythe]

I for one am very happy about 17 being able to stand up against SSB.

I'm loving this arc because so many characters are made relevant again, and moves Super away from being the Goku (and sometimes Vegeta) show.

I don't care about powerlevels being rendered useless, because imo powerlevels fucked up Dragon Ball.

So yeah, I'm more than happy about how 17 has been portrayed in this episode (in multiple ways )

This guy gets it !

Here, have a 17 smile.

Like I said, the bones they toss don't have to make sense, so long as they at least toss *something* out there. And yeah not being in the move is why I specified "in the show version"! Which again was still god awful but I do appreciate that they at least attempted to patch that up in the Super version of the story.

They just straight-up haven't bothered to say anything to explain 17, you can theorize what you want but it's no doubt frustrating to accept in comparison to other bullshit power scaling.

But I wasn't even arguing with you about whether it's satisfying or not.

His boost is definitely not satisfying in my book, but not a single one in Super has been.

I was just saying the criticism that applied to Frieza can't be applied here directly. The only thing they have in common is that the execution was disappointing. But in terms of specifics ? They're not the same at all.

Now as far as I'm concerned, what we gain with this is far more than what we lose.

Like what the fuck are the consequences ? Everybody gets to matter and the fights will revolve about other things than power levels ? Well big whoop, I can live with that.

 

[-MB-]

Because the way he trained.

Mountain training has it's limits. It's the whole reason more effective training methods get introduced....

If they have shown he actually used the time chamber or some gravity room then I would have been ok with it but they didn't. People bring up his stamina and him training all day but he can't even do that since he has a job and a family.

So no. I don't accept this bullshit.

About that family thing. I can't see how he would have beeen able to maintain a family etc somewhere else, if he can't even leave the island for 2 hours without it being invaded by the poachers to fight in a tournament, let alone spent time with them and get kids and raise them.

 

[Lunchbillion]

Given the precedent set by Frieza in 4 months, it's not too hard for me to accept 17's current level of power.

I can understand why people are mad though. The chasm between 17 in the Cell Saga and current SSB Goku is crazy. SSG Goku was at universe-threatening levels of power during the BoG arc and like, a zillion times stronger than Mystic Gohan or even Vegito (going off of Goku's own statements). Then Goku's SS1 became equivalent to that level of power, meaning his SS2 and SS3 forms should be far beyond that level at the cost of stamina drain. Then Goku found an even better power in SSB. Then Goku and Vegeta trained in the time chamber for three years straight. By the end of the Goku Black arc, Goku took on Hit with just SSB when last time he needed Kaioken x10 to keep up. So Goku is ten times stronger than he was in the U6 tournament, which was already many times stronger than the level needed to destroy the damn universe.

Power scaling issues get more and more ridiculous over time when the previous pinnacle of power is multiplied again and again. What's 17 been doing on that island? I know it's been ten years, but damn. He have a gravity chamber stashed away somewhere? Does he spar with the minotaurus? What the whaaat

 

[Hellraider]

I'm so happy 17 turned out to be such a likeable and awesome guy. They also did an excellent job with his design in Super.

Also, was this the first time they acknowledged Uub's existence in Super?

 

[LaNaranja]

I am going to have to go with what seems like the consensus and say that the 17 ass pull was them stepping right over that line of "fuck it we don't care anymore." It is Dragon Ball Super making the leap from Saints Row 2 to Saints Row 3. The leap from Fast and Furious 6 to Furious 7.

There has always been ridiculousness but they would at least try to contextualize it in world and do something to attempt to explain why it made sense. I suppose they still have a chance to rectify it in the coming episodes but it really does just come across as shitty writing. For a second I thought Dende was going to say that the Earth was still getting attacked all throughout the time Goku was training and so 17 had been acting as Earth's protector while Goku and Vegeta were off playing. Even that would have been better than the nothing we have gotten so far.

 

[Omni]

Okay this episode looked awful. Probably the first I've seen in this arc that visibly distracted me from what was actually happening on screen

 

[J4g3r]

We're probably going to see his family next episode.

Still hoping they end up being the reason he joins.

 

[The Silver]

I'm so happy 17 turned out to be such a likeable and awesome guy. They also did an excellent job with his design in Super.

Also, was this the first time they acknowledged Uub's existence in Super?

No, Goku mentioned him to Vegeta when they were recruiting for the Champa tournament

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

You know what just occurred to me. How the hell do these alien poachers know about the endangered species near earth or even know that theres an island that has one? Do other planets have the same life or do these go and hunt them regularly

 

[Merc_]

"Fuck Power Levels." - Akira Toriyama, probably.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

"Fuck Power Levels." - Akira Toriyama, probably.

Now I want this to happen during the tournament

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Needed a few lines justifying 17's strength - unlike his sister he was converted to be the absolute most powerful creature Gero could create, and he has focused on training constantly.

17 won't remember Buu being evil FWIW if I remember that wish correctly.

There's no real reason for 17 to not be super strong if he wanted to be. We already have an idea what top-tier in terms of strength looks like for a few universes. SSB as it stands is not on a pedestal.

Nevertheless this episode was really only interesting for being the first mention of Uub. The 17 stuff was predictable and the character is not terribly interesting.

 

[Slaythe]

I'm so happy 17 turned out to be such a likeable and awesome guy. They also did an excellent job with his design in Super.

Also, was this the first time they acknowledged Uub's existence in Super?

No he was mentioned before the U6 tournament.

Given the precedent set by Frieza in 4 months, it's not too hard for me to accept 17's current level of power.

I can understand why people are mad though. The chasm between 17 in the Cell Saga and current SSB Goku is crazy. SSG Goku was at universe-threatening levels of power during the BoG arc and like, a zillion times stronger than Mystic Gohan or even Vegito (going off of Goku's own statements). Then Goku's SS1 became equivalent to that level of power, meaning his SS2 and SS3 forms should be far beyond that level at the cost of stamina drain. Then Goku found an even better power in SSB. Then Goku and Vegeta trained in the time chamber for three years straight. By the end of the Goku Black arc, Goku took on Hit with just SSB when last time he needed Kaioken x10 to keep up. So Goku is ten times stronger than he was in the U6 tournament, which was already many times stronger than the level needed to destroy the damn universe.

Power scaling issues get more and more ridiculous over time when the previous pinnacle of power is multiplied again and again. What's 17 been doing on that island? I know it's been ten years, but damn. He have a gravity chamber stashed away somewhere? Does he spar with the minotaurus? What the whaaat

Well they wrote themselves in a corner, that's why it was already stupid to have Hit being that strong.

But think of this as Super's Saiyan saga equivalent. Where all the characters learned of completely new heights of power level, and everybody was able to transcend themselves. Leading to a new status quo.

About that family thing. I can't see how he would have beeen able to maintain a family etc somewhere else, if he can't even leave the island for 2 hours without it being invaded by the poachers to fight in a tournament, let alone spent time with them and get kids and raise them.

It's not like he spent 10 years on this island. For all you know, he got this job 2 months ago.

Plus there are space poachers and all. Maybe it's not the first time it happened.

Maybe Goku will ask him how he got so strong next episode ?

 

[ArchedThunder]

I am going to have to go with what seems like the consensus and say that the 17 ass pull was them stepping right over that line of "fuck it we don't care anymore." It is Dragon Ball Super making the leap from Saints Row 2 to Saints Row 3. The leap from Fast and Furious 6 to Furious 7.

There has always been ridiculousness but they would at least try to contextualize it in world and do something to attempt to explain why it made sense. I suppose they still have a chance to rectify it in the coming episodes but it really does just come across as shitty writing. For a second I thought Dende was going to say that the Earth was still getting attacked all throughout the time Goku was training and so 17 had been acting as Earth's protector while Goku and Vegeta were off playing. Even that would have been better than the nothing we have gotten so far.

As far as I can tell there is no consensus.

Okay this episode looked awful. Probably the first I've seen in this arc that visibly distracted me from what was actually happening on screen

Nevertheless this episode was really only interesting for being the first mention of Uub..

Episode 30.

 

[-MB-]

No he was mentioned before the U6 tournament.



Well they wrote themselves in a corner, that's why it was already stupid to have Hit being that strong.

But think of this as Super's Saiyan saga equivalent. Where all the characters learned of completely new heights of power level, and everybody was able to transcend themselves. Leading to a new status quo.




It's not like he spent 10 years on this island. For all you know, he got this job 2 months ago.

Plus there are space poachers and all. Maybe it's not the first time it happened.

Maybe Goku will ask him how he got so strong next episode ?

Only he was shown to take on poachers in the Buu saga, so we KNOW it wasn't just 2 months ago.

 

[Slaythe]

Only he was shown to take on poachers in the Buu saga, so we KNOW it wasn't just 2 months ago.

He was surrounded by ice in the Buu saga so it wasn't on that job.

I meant mission btw, not "ranger".

 

[The Silver]

I wish Zamasu could see this tournament, dude would be so triggered seeing all these strong ningen and especially Goku's attitude towards Zeno.

 

[Slaythe]

I wish Zamasu could see this tournament, dude would be so triggered seeing all these strong ningen and especially Goku's attitude towards Zeno.

Hit was stronger and he didn't give a shit.

I think the key difference is that only Goku has god ki.

That completely useless and unexplained god ki.

And Vegeta I guess. But him jobbing was probably not that impressive .

 

[LaNaranja]

I wish Zamasu could see this tournament, dude would be so triggered seeing all these strong ningen and especially Goku's attitude towards Zeno.

Man I'm starting to think Zamasu was right all along.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

I wish Zamasu could see this tournament, dude would be so triggered seeing all these strong ningen and especially Goku's attitude towards Zeno.

He was right about mortals

 

[LotusHD]

Honestly, if retconning power level bullshit is what's necessary to get side characters back to playing prominent roles, I'll gladly take that option. Power levels were always dumb anyways

I have to repeat this to myself every time I see some power scale nonsense in an episode. An episode that brings 17 of all people back to the fold is fine by me, DBZ/DBS has never been a show that was consistent with power levels to begin with, and it never will be.

It's just a nostalgia-fueled trip that is finally attempting to correct DBZ being the "Goku and Vegeta show" all the time. Fine by me.

 

[ShironRedshift]

I have to repeat this to myself every time I see some power scale nonsense in an episode. An episode that brings 17 of all people back to the fold is fine by me, DBZ/DBS has never been a show that was consistent with power levels to begin with, and it never will be.

It's just a nostalgia-fueled trip that is finally attempting to correct DBZ being the "Goku and Vegeta show" all the time. Fine by me.

Pretty much. Continues to put another sword through power level nonsense, while bringing awesome characters like 17 back into the fold and stopping it from just being the Saiyan shown and acting like they're the only ones capable of getting completely BS powerups because reasons. Two birds, one stone. Win win for me. ^^

 

[Slaythe]

Awh you two make me happy.

 

[ArchedThunder]

We got a big one
Dragon Ball Super episode 86 GIFs.

 

[Slaythe]

I love you

It loops so perfectly omg

 

[Solid Sora]

Did they tone down the post processing for this episode or is it just not that compatible with sunset colors?

 

[ArchedThunder]

Did they tone down the post processing for this episode or is it just not that compatible with sunset colors?

Seeing as it's unique colors for the sunset it'd be hard to say.
But in general the color post processing was toned down from episode 77 to 78, but it's also unique for different locations, so for instance earth has different color filtering going on than the arena for the exhibition matches. The general daylight stuff here seemed to be the same as it has been for the earth stuff since 78, but I haven't compared it.

 

[Dark_castle]

Ahhh yeah that Frieza 4months training thing is yet another dumb plot contrivances that's just piling on the bad writing that plagues DBS. I don't know how some people keep defending these shit. This episode was dedicated to 17, yet they couldn't bother to hint what 17 do to massively boost his power level all these years. Just a single line of "I didn't relax all these years" what the fuck does that even mean, because I don't see what kind of training you could do by yourself along with some regular human with guns and wild animals.

 

[Ashodin]

Seeing as it's unique colors for the sunset it'd be hard to say.
But in general the color post processing was toned down from episode 77 to 78, but it's also unique for different locations, so for instance earth has different color filtering going on than the arena for the exhibition matches. The general daylight stuff here seemed to be the same as it has been for the earth stuff since 78, but I haven't compared it.

Arched can you do the part in that fight gif where 17 pauses and his eye glows before hitting Goku? Shit is legit

 

[Slaythe]

Also there's something we all didn't pay much attention to because it looked normal.

17 started using an AURA for the first time ever, when he was facing Blue.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Arched can you do the part in that fight gif where 17 pauses and his eye glows before hitting Goku? Shit is legit

Scroll up.

 

[Kagari]

The current discussion is exactly why I hate Blue. They really painted themselves into a corner with it.

 

[ArchedThunder]

The current discussion is exactly why I hate Blue. They really painted themselves into a corner with it.

I still think people would complain, the complaint would just be that 17 is Super Saiyan God level.

 

[Slaythe]

The current discussion is exactly why I hate Blue. They really painted themselves into a corner with it.

Literally feels like whoever is running the show now is like "Yeah about that blue thing... It's not gonna work out". They're completely ignoring the first year of Super.

Hell they're giving Goku the mystic form.

They might be phasing blue out entirely.

 

[TeamLeftMatch]

This took longer than it should have.

Edit: I can't spell so the errors are staying

 

[Romars202129]

People pissed off about this power up now know how I feel about ultimate Gohan is all.
Anywho, I do have one problem. 17 can't sense energy is no longer a good enough reason for 17 ducking buu imo. I need that explained now...
But I wonder, maybe the reason is his new found fatalism revealed at the end of this episode.[it's fine if everything gets erased] Maybe 17 could have stopped Buu, and just didn't?
Hope the next ep elaborates.
Also, those fight scenes were glorious. 17 continues to have the best fights in the series.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Literally feels like whoever is running the show now is like "Yeah about that blue thing... It's not gonna work out". They're completely ignoring the first year of Super.

Hell they're giving Goku the mystic form.

They might be phasing blue out entirely.

And that form will probably be stronger than Blue, so I don't see how that's "fixing a problem".

People pissed off about this power up now know how I feel about ultimate Gohan is all.
Anywho, I do have one problem. 17 can't sense energy is no longer a good enough reason for 17 ducking buu imo. I need that explained now...
But I wonder, maybe the reason is his new found fatalism revealed at the end of this episode.[it's fine if everything gets erased] Maybe 17 could have stopped Buu, and just didn't?
Hope the next ep elaborates.
Also, those fight scenes were glorious. 17 continues to have the best fights in the series.

I mean, if he couldn't sense Buu how was he supposed to ever show up to fight him?

 

[Slaythe]

And that form will probably be stronger than Blue, so I don't see how that's "fixing a problem".

No just illustrating that they have 0 consideration for the blue form and have no intention to ever make it compelling.

 

[Baleoce]

I liked that they had 17 going toe to toe with blue. Makes it more interesting when more characters can be relevant. One bit I found amusing was the fact he'd do anything to protect the wildlife on the island, but then as soon as he realises the fate of the universe could lie partially in his hands, he's indifferent to it. Like, what will be will be. Had me a bit confused xD

The animation in that sparring match was great too.

 

[HeavenlyE]

Everyone complaining about 17 but I'd be completely fine with Tien somehow opening a 4th eye and beating Blue goku 1 on 1

 

[ArchedThunder]

Everyone complaining about 17 but I'd be completely fine with Tien somehow opening a 4th eye and beating Blue goku 1 on 1

"Come at me, FOUR EYES!"

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Part of what made Goku, Vegeta, and the rest of the Z fighters so powerful is extraordinary circumstances.

If Goku doesn't die and train with King Kai and have the battle of his life with Vegeta, he never would have progressed much beyond the typical limitations of his race.
Since then, Goku has had extraordinary battles and mentors that have helped him become extremely powerful.

Android 17 never had any circumstances that required him to get as strong as he is.

I liked that the extraordinary circumstances that Goku and Vegeta experienced in their universes is what got them to be so powerful and that's why they can compete front and center with fighters from other more powerful universes.

I can even swallow that the terror of the universe, Majin Buu is actually very weak by multiverse standards, but in order to surpass the power of him in U7, it better be a damn good reason.

 

[J4g3r]

 

[Romars202129]

Everyone complaining about 17 but I'd be completely fine with Tien somehow opening a 4th eye and beating Blue goku 1 on 1

I think more than a couple of the outraged here would be perfectly content if just a different person got the power up lol

I mean, if he couldn't sense Buu how was he supposed to ever show up to fight him?

There's no not noticing the genocide attack. And with this power up, barring further explanation suggests he could have stomped Buu. I need an explanation.

 

[Slaythe]

Jager is lowkey the hero we need but don't deserve.

 

[Maximo]

Everyone complaining about 17 but I'd be completely fine with Tien somehow opening a 4th eye and beating Blue goku 1 on 1

Need more Tien in my life.

 

[Slaythe]

There's no not noticing the genocide attack. And with this power up, barring further explanation suggests he could have stomped Buu. I need an explanation.

He

Can

Not

Feel

Ki

Even if he notices genocide, how do you suggest he finds Buu ? The whole saga before earth was destroyed took place in one single day in the manga. Or rather the second day didn't even finish/barely started.

Is that good enough of an explanation ?