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Rime Creative Director: "Reading Neogaf made me cry for two days"

leeh

Member
People respond differently to critiscm, this is one an important lesson learned in life, the mechanism for how that is delivered is key.

I feel for the guy, he'll put hard work in for years, he will be living and breathing the game he's worked on and with the nature of negative comments on the internet, I fully sympathize with him.

I don't think NeoGAF is bad in particular, just the way people express negative views on the internet is at such an extreme compared to real life. He will of felt attacked personally as it's someone who really cares about what they do.
 
-NeoGAF is actively moderated and we don't very much tolerate personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims.

Strongly disagree. The mods have been very, very lax on both personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims lately. Hell, the incident referenced to in this thread was a whole pile of personal attacks as a direct result of a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.
 

Alienous

Member
I remember back when the rumors of troubled development came out, their twitter had posted something about how they were laughing at the thread.

13rm1o.jpg
 

Reverend Funk

Comfy Penetration
Wait, wait, hold on a sec, modbot. Can someone help out our friend?


General commentary:

-Should probably be talking about your two whole day cry with your therapist and not Edge Magazine. Also sounds like it would be pretty cathartic in any case. Did you emerge from your cocoon of tears a brave new boy new ready to face your first actual challenges in life? I bet you did! You're quite welcome.

-Criticism or accusation on a video game message board about a creative work triggering a traumatic psychological event from the creative director does not constitute contradictory evidence against the criticism or accusation. In other words, NeoGAF's not Bad Monster Who Is Wrong because of this guy's tears. That's an appeal to pity, not a rebuttal to anything he read.

-NeoGAF is actively moderated and we don't very much tolerate personal attacks, hate speech, and unsubstantiated claims. What we don't police, however, is someone not liking a thing you like or you liking a thing someone else doesn't like. If you keep it civil, don't drag a thread down around your own ego (unless you're me, *wink*, *thread unlock*), and back up your positions, and you're not just being inflammatory for the sake of it, then things are probably operating as intended. If you're uncomfortable with your favorite game or favorite developer-turned-god being criticized, go have yourself a good cry and head elsewhere.

-Despite someone having a breakdown here and there, or someone making a public exit some other time, or whatever a blowhard on Twitter says, the industry and the press follow NeoGAF pretty closely, and most industry folks are totally chill about the site. A lot of indies have expressed love and appreciation for the organic exposure they've gotten here that helped bring their projects to the spotlight on their own merit and thank me that NeoGAF exists and remains an independent entity where that can actually happen, and at the other end of the spectrum lots of AAA studios have taken notes on issues highlighted here and acknowledged and appreciated feedback, even very harsh feedback.

Most creatives figure out how to cope with criticism of their work and adjust accordingly. Some enjoy engaging directly on social platforms and can ignore any random trolls that might drive by, some watch from the sidelines to varying degrees, some ignore what the internet has to say entirely.

Someone compulsively chose to read the accumulated criticism of their thing in one go and cried afterwards. After serious and lengthy deliberation I have decided...not to shut down NeoGAF in response to this news. Thanks!
Nice
 

Kindekuma

Banned
We should implement an upvote/downvote system so that the Rime haters can have their messages ignored. Then we can put those haters in a special subforum so they can talk amongst themselves.

This idea is why I cannot stand discussions on websites like Reddit. I can see removing hateful/threatening speech but when comments are downvotes simply for a disagreement of opinion that's where I get annoyed. Even if they're very constructive disagreements they get buried to favor popular opinions. When everyone agrees with each other at what point does it remain a forum of discussion instead a circle jerk of popular opinion?
 
As a developer, I think it is better for your health to stay away from most online discussions. Sure, you might be able to use it for feedback, but better to have that filtered through someone from PR or whatever, because it is very easy to take criticism personally while you shouldn't. Plus, the few negative comments haunt you, while the neutral and positive ones are forgotten quickly.
 

maxiell

Member
Have to give credit to Stinkles, chubigans, the Ori fellow and a variety of other developers who regularly post here. They really make this a special place.

At the same time I would enjoy not going into a thread and reading someone type "Fuck this." It really does not add much to the conversation.
 

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Which thread was so terrible that he needed to cry for two days?

I remember they tweeted that they laughed about the GAF threads

I have no idea lmfao, I just looked it up out of curiosity and the most recent rime threads that gained ANY traction were the one about the price being higher for the switch version, the price error, the re-reveal trailer and the thread about the first 27 minutes of footage.

From what I gather the consensus for each thread were:

Price thread - "They won't tell us why one costs more than the other so we're kind of mad because we aren't getting an explanation"

Price error thread - "Why do they hate us switch owners so much?"

27min of footage thread - First camp "It looks beautiful" Second camp "why is the trailer so dark? Where are all the colors? Where are all the shadows and AO?" Third camp "looks boring"

Re-reveal thread - "oh wow I thought this was dead" with a mix of drama towards the second half of the thread because some one claimed to have insider info that said the game was shaping up to be a disaster

I dunno this reception seems to be pretty tame and fairly on par with GAF.
 

Not

Banned
Far from it. While I enjoy posting here and being part of the community, the culture of negativity and cynicism on Gaming side has been extremely toxic recently. The way I see people here talking about developers and their livelihoods is disgusting. The only people who actually believe what you've said are Gaffers.

For all of the high horse talk about being better than GameFAQs or N4G, outside of the OT, the amazing community threads and awesome tech discussions, GAF can be just as bad as those places and consistently so. Thank god the mods here are as good as they are at what they do. Things could be a lot worse if it wasn't for them.

Edit: I saw EviLore's post - You've got the balance right. With a community this large, mods can only do so much and of course you don't want to choke out discourse. What you've done a great job of doing is making the enjoyable parts of this forum really enjoyable, which is the main thing. There's a place for you on this forum no matter what system you support, no matter what games you like to play etc. which can't be said for many forums out there.

NeoGAF is great because it's an idealized form of the Internet: voluntary anonymity with consequences.
 
I'm sure that there are posters here who have attended an art show (or even displayed their own artwork at one). If you want to watch people having their hearts torn out of their chests and stomped on attend one of those. It's not easy to listen to someone criticize and tear apart something that is your passion and life's work but a lot of the times it actually helps you create something better based on the criticism.

And without being mean I think if you can't deal with heavy and sometimes harsh criticism a creative field is the wrong line of work for you.
 

Boke1879

Member
As a developer, I think it is better for your health to stay away from most online discussions. Sure, you might be able to use it for feedback, but better to have that filtered through someone from PR or whatever, because it is very easy to take criticism personally while you shouldn't. Plus, the few negative comments haunt you, while the neutral and positive ones are forgotten quickly.

Pretty much this.
 

Instro

Member
Strongly disagree. The mods have been very, very lax on both personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims lately. Hell, the incident referenced to in this thread was a whole pile of personal attacks as a direct result of a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Admittedly I don't remember​ the thread very well, but I don't recall any significant amount of personal attacks. Generally speaking I usually see any posts that delve into that level get hit with bans fairly quickly.
 
You mean, able to easily express their emotions in an instinctive and uninhibited manner? Weirdos

Life is tough sometimes. We all have a lot of burden to carry and we're all dealing with shit. Being overly sensitive is a thing and if you cry over criticism for two days I'd absolutely recommend working with a licensed clinical therapist to talk it out.
 

Neptonic

Member
We should implement an upvote/downvote system so that the Rime haters can have their messages ignored. Then we can put those haters in a special subforum so they can talk amongst themselves.
That just gives people tools for dog-piling and silencing users with differing opinions. That doesn't support real discussion. The thread about Titanfall going open world would be ruined with an up-vote/down-vote system since the OP would have given up trying to make their point way earlier. They eventually were able to make people see their way, but most wouldn't given have give that thread a chance if they could just down-vote.
 

MicH

Member
GAF van be pretty damn harsh, but that pretty much describes the Internet in general.

Don't take everything you read to heart
 

Pastulio

Banned
Good thing he didn't read 4/chan... he would have killed himself.

NeoGaf is pretty tame compared to other sites... but jeez, learning to take criticism is a huge part of working in a creative industry. Not taking it personally is mandatory.
 
Some of the people in this thread seem to be forgetting​ that they, too, are NeoGAF.

Queue the ad:

"I'm a single mother of two, and I am NeoGAF."
"I'm twelve and spend my weekends at the local retirement center, and I'm NeoGAF."
"I bake cakes and torture small animals, and I'm NeoGAF."
 

Not

Banned
Life is tough sometimes. We all have a lot of burden to carry and we're all dealing with shit. Being overly sensitive is a thing and if you cry over criticism for two days I'd absolutely recommend working with a licensed clinical therapist to talk it out.

So what's the "normal" limit before the guy should start feeling like a baby? One day?
 

Dmax3901

Member
It's a weird situation that I often see come up in the Easy Allies thread. People will drop in and be like "man I hate it when such and such does this" or "I've never liked the way this particular person produces videos/presents themself". They're throwaway comments that aren't always mean, but when you consider several of the allies are active in that thread it becomes a little different.
 

Granjinha

Member
And to think all the negativity towards RiME was formed because of a rumour (which tbh is probably bullshit)

Welp, thisisneogaf.gif

the guy should avoid discussions in general if he is that sensible, too
 

Mediking

Member
Wait, wait, hold on a sec, modbot. Can someone help out our friend?


General commentary:

-Should probably be talking about your two whole day cry with your therapist and not Edge Magazine. Also sounds like it would be pretty cathartic in any case. Did you emerge from your cocoon of tears a brave new boy new ready to face your first actual challenges in life? I bet you did! You're quite welcome.

-Criticism or accusation on a video game message board about a creative work triggering a traumatic psychological event from the creative director does not constitute contradictory evidence against the criticism or accusation. In other words, NeoGAF's not Bad Monster Who Is Wrong because of this guy's tears. That's an appeal to pity, not a rebuttal to anything he read.

-NeoGAF is actively moderated and we don't very much tolerate personal attacks, hate speech, and unsubstantiated claims. What we don't police, however, is someone not liking a thing you like or you liking a thing someone else doesn't like. If you keep it civil, don't drag a thread down around your own ego (unless you're me, *wink*, *thread unlock*), and back up your positions, and you're not just being inflammatory for the sake of it, then things are probably operating as intended. If you're uncomfortable with your favorite game or favorite developer-turned-god being criticized, go have yourself a good cry and head elsewhere.

-Despite someone having a breakdown here and there, or someone making a public exit some other time, or whatever a blowhard on Twitter says, the industry and the press follow NeoGAF pretty closely, and most industry folks are totally chill about the site. A lot of indies have expressed love and appreciation for the organic exposure they've gotten here that helped bring their projects to the spotlight on their own merit and thank me that NeoGAF exists and remains an independent entity where that can actually happen, and at the other end of the spectrum lots of AAA studios have taken notes on issues highlighted here and acknowledged and appreciated feedback, even very harsh feedback.

Most creatives figure out how to cope with criticism of their work and adjust accordingly. Some enjoy engaging directly on social platforms and can ignore any random trolls that might drive by, some watch from the sidelines to varying degrees, some ignore what the internet has to say entirely.

Someone compulsively chose to read the accumulated criticism of their thing in one go and cried afterwards. After serious and lengthy deliberation I have decided...not to shut down NeoGAF in response to this news. Thanks!

Lol nice, man. You said it better than I could.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
understandable.
Often people like to think GAF is above other sites or subreddits quality-wise but usually it is just as bad if not even worse if it is a polarizing game for GAF.

I didn't really follow the RIME situation but I understand why he felt that way. Though it probably is not the place to say this at an official interview or an article

EDIT: Decided it is not worth it. not at this point anymore
 
I guess I'm part of the problem because I laughed at the thread title.

I wasn't involved in this debate but I do feel some members take some gaming news as a slight against them. The passion is fun but take a chill pill sometimes.
 
As a developer, I think it is better for your health to stay away from most online discussions. Sure, you might be able to use it for feedback, but better to have that filtered through someone from PR or whatever, because it is very easy to take criticism personally while you shouldn't. Plus, the few negative comments haunt you, while the neutral and positive ones are forgotten quickly.

I think people should look for the truth that is being said. If you read, "this game sucks" well there is nothing to learn from that. If someone says, "I hate this character because she is such a Mary sue", sure it's negative and may get you down, but at least you can ask yourself why someone would say that. Learn from it for the next time.
 

Neptonic

Member
It's a weird situation that I often see come up in the Easy Allies thread. People will drop in and be like "man I hate it when such and such does this" or "I've never liked the way this particular person produces videos/presents themself". They're throwaway comments that aren't always mean, but when you consider several of the allies are active in that thread it becomes a little different.
Nothing is better than people fighting over who is the best member of Giant Bomb to make a thread cozy.
It's kinda rude to personally attack people when you know they might read your comments.
 

Thorrgal

Member
I have no idea lmfao, I just looked it up out of curiosity and the most recent rime threads that gained ANY traction were the one about the price being higher for the switch version, the price error, the re-reveal trailer and the thread about the first 27 minutes of footage.

From what I gather the consensus for each thread were:

Price thread - "They won't tell us why one costs more than the other so we're kind of mad because we aren't getting an explanation"

Price error thread - "Why do they hate us switch owners so much?"

27min of footage thread - First camp "It looks beautiful" Second camp "why is the trailer so dark? Where are all the colors? Where are all the shadows and AO?" Third camp "looks boring"

Re-reveal thread - "oh wow I thought this was dead" with a mix of drama towards the second half of the thread because some one claimed to have insider info that said the game was shaping up to be a disaster

I dunno this reception seems to be pretty tame and fairly on par with GAF.

Yeah, you missed the one the developer is referring too...
 

Sami+

Member
I mean from what I remember, everything about the game's development was super shady for a number of years. Especially when news came out that the whole reveal trailer was basically pre-rendered.

Personally I lost interest. Last year and prior I was dying for a current gen Ueda game, and would have enjoyed this as a substitute. But now I have the real thing and I'm satisfied.
 

rhandino

Banned
Strongly disagree. The mods have been very, very lax on both personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims lately. Hell, the incident referenced to in this thread was a whole pile of personal attacks as a direct result of a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.
I kinda want to see examples of this because after the incident that got banned that flop insider for making false claims I noticed that mods go hard on personal attacks based on baseless rumors.
 

Instro

Member
understandable.
Often people like to think GAF is above other sites or subreddits quality-wise but usually it is just as bad if not even worse if it is a polarizing game for GAF.

I didn't really follow the RIME situation but I understand why he felt that way. Though it probably is not the place to say this at an official interview or an article

EDIT: Decided it is not worth it. not at this point anymore

It's not worth it because your post was pretty lame. There are too many creepy stalkers, hackers, GGers, harassers, etc., that want to go after the mods that ban them, or those that are seen as SJWs, female mods, etc. ModBot is used for good reason.
 
I mean it's kind of hard not to be negative when the supposed inside information about this game, and company, were extremely grim.

This, unfortunately. The reported leak about the game not actually existing when Sony sold the rights back caused a fair amount of eyebrows to raise, and arguably for good reason--public information about the game had up until then disappeared into the ether, and Sony isn't exactly reputable for dropping publishing rights for their games. The fact that word got out about the event around the same time Sony's own TLG was literally being saved from development hell after being developed for a decade and then some didn't help matters. And while the whole fiasco about the Nintendo Switch version of the game happened much later, that only served to further colored the studio's reception.

That said, while I understand his complaints, I think it's a bit unfair to cast the entire GAF community as a hive mind of vitriol. I think the person should at least be a little more selective in regards to targeting his complaints. There are people who do show up to accentuate the negative, but there are also people who still speak positively about studios/products, and even defend/justify some of the more polarizing subjects brought up on the board; and they shouldn't be overlooked when making a judgement of the forum as a whole.
 

Audioboxer

Member
GAF is a collection of individuals. While groups of posters may band together and think alike (this does happen), the site is not simply a collective. Some devs may "hate" certain posters, but to focus on some of what you do not like in among 180k+ users and charge off to "all of GAF thinks like this, waaaaaah", is throwing your toys out of a pram. If you go looking to read criticism and that is ALL you read, then be prepared for your mind to try and convince you that is all that is on the board. It's not.

Instead, go read any number of the other topics kicking about with people who aren't saying anything about your game or you if you want to have a breather. The Rime devs have to accept there has been a lot of "drama" surrounding their game, including one of the big three dropping it. Outside eyes and mouths are going to talk about what they can, even if they don't know the whole picture. In a world of NDAs/contracts and what not you can't blame everyone for simply going on what they get fed crumbs about.

And yeah people can be quite savage, but often words of criticism are aimed at a studio. While devs will understandably take this personally, it comes part in parcel with the line of work. Now if someone is harassing individuals and targeting unfairly, sure, that's different. Calling your work a piece of shit, or your studio garbage, while crude, is what it is. If you want to turn that into a motivator set out to prove criticism "wrong". Put out a good product, and people will change their minds. You are ultimately asking for their money aka chunks of the wages they work hard for. That comes at the price of having to convince people your product in a sea of products deserves the £££/$$$.

Even if you put out an objectively good product it will still be criticised by some. Such is life. You can't make everyone happy. A fairly thick skin is needed to be a creator of any piece of content/work/art/media that you're going to try and sell.
 
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