IrishNinja
Member
for real - i bailed early on schism, house of M i finished but barely recall - i think he wanted to be fury-lite or something i guess?
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The Atlantic: 'The Real Reasons for Marvel Comics Woes'
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
for real - i bailed early on schism, house of M i finished but barely recall - i think he wanted to be fury-lite or something i guess?
I think the pricing has got to be part of it. $3.99 is just fucking steep.
When I was a kid, I was collecting like 10 books a week... but they were only like $1.50 to $1.99. I wouldn't let my kid collect 10 books a week now, the inflation on floppies is nuts and it makes no sense when translates to digital.
Meaning, they are cancelling or threatening to cancel books I'm throwing money at, like Silver Surfer, Mockingbird, Ms. Marvel, Black Panther spin offs....
They are making money off me, but the impression I get from people more clued in than me is that their business model is based almost entirely on pre-orders for the monthly print copy sales. Not digital issues, not trades, not what's being read in MU.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I feel like I'm gonna lose my mind getting invested into another series that only lasts 9 goddamn issues.
I was an avid comic fan and had always had issues with stuff like this but Marvel in particular went off the FUCKING wall with this nonsense. Even for a fan like me its hard to keep up let alone give a shit.
So I just gave up on it because reading manga and stuff like Saga is easier and sometimes cheaper.
Absolutely. If they fully-committed to digital, at a reasonable price,, they could sell 100,000 copies instead of 30,000 on dead trees.
Marvel comics caters to whales. People who don't mind buying everything to get the full story. Same thing as Mobile games. Part of the problem is that too many whales are deciding not to buy Marvel comics anymore.
But let's be frank. As long as Disney is making billions of dollars off 2, 3 Marvel movies, they could give less of a damn.
But let's be frank. As long as Disney is making billions of dollars off 2, 3 Marvel movies, they could give less of a damn.
My thought is that the mainstream comic book verses is that they're close to having a good business model (disregarding the issues with Diamond and direct sale), they just need to lean more on long-lasting runs to get closer to the manga model, which is something that's been done before (Claremont's X-Men run was like 15 years, wasn't it?)
Make the limited runs explicitly understood: that way you can keep experimenting with sidekicks, spinoff characters, and C and D-list heroes without creating uncertainty, a 6-month Silver Sorceress run here, a 1-year Darkhawk run there. If it's a flop out of the gate, whatever, just tough it out for the pre-planned run, you make returns on the fact that buyers then know what they're getting into when they buy a #1: this is a self-contained mini that will end in 6 months to a year and have a nice conclusion to its little arc, or there's an off-chance it goes viral and it gets promoted to a regular series, after which point it lasts as long as it keeps selling. That should help stabilize sales across the run (because every buyer knows when the run will end).
Shared universe gets rebooted once a decade like clockwork (because honestly it's lost all shock value, so why not just make it regular continuity-cleaning? Could even have the 4th-wall characters like Deadpool lean on it in years that end with 9), but does so in a way that their long-running perpetual works can be continued without too much trouble (more "Rebirth" and less "Flashpoint")
Make the limited runs explicitly understood: that way you can keep experimenting with sidekicks, spinoff characters, and C and D-list heroes without creating uncertainty, a 6-month Silver Sorceress run here, a 1-year Darkhawk run there. If it's a flop out of the gate, whatever, just tough it out for the pre-planned run, you make returns on the fact that buyers then know what they're getting into when they buy a #1: this is a self-contained mini that will end in 6 months to a year and have a nice conclusion to its little arc, or there's an off-chance it goes viral and it gets promoted to a regular series, after which point it lasts as long as it keeps selling. That should help stabilize sales across the run (because every buyer knows when the run will end).
Shared universe gets rebooted once a decade like clockwork (because honestly it's lost all shock value, so why not just make it regular continuity-cleaning? Could even have the 4th-wall characters like Deadpool lean on it in years that end with 9), but does so in a way that their long-running perpetual works can be continued without too much trouble (more "Rebirth" and less "Flashpoint")
adamsappel
Member
This should be on The Atlantic's masthead.
randomengine
Banned
I quit the big two last year after years and years of collecting comics. I bought 20-30 titles a month. I had those fancy drawerboxes and everything was organized. Marvel finally broke me with their fucking incredulous arrogance - mostly Alonzo, stating they will relaunch a new #1 as often as the market would bear. Well it appears he found out....the hard way.
I was a huge Hulk fan. They killed Bruce Banner for no reason.
Eventually, I just got tired of the relaunches, tired of the gimmicks, tired of the years and years of bullshit.
I read Manga now, exclusively. I finished Death Note and Monster. I follow One Piece, One-Punch-Man, Platinum End, Assassination Classroom and JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
Every time I think about going back to American comics, I think about how little the editor-in-chief at Marvel thinks of me as a consumer. What a fucking douchebag. It really sucks too because DC is doing all the right things and they got punished by-proxy.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I still would like to read cape comics but honestly the 2-3 MCU movies a year give me my fill and even with 18 movies and 12 in production it's easier to keep track of.
Like I love comic books and graphic novels but have been sticking to Indies, Image, Dark Horse and manga for years now and don't really miss much. If someone says something is good from the big two I'll pick it up but even then I have a hard time telling if this version of Hawkguy is actually the complete one or not.
I think the last thing I followed was Before Watchmen and that was trash. I don't know what I expected that was my fault
Like I love comic books and graphic novels but have been sticking to Indies, Image, Dark Horse and manga for years now and don't really miss much. If someone says something is good from the big two I'll pick it up but even then I have a hard time telling if this version of Hawkguy is actually the complete one or not.
I think the last thing I followed was Before Watchmen and that was trash. I don't know what I expected that was my fault
Super Hero comics are generally meh with some outstanding stuff out there. Its sorting through all the crap to get to the good stuff that turned me off. For every Thor God Bomb/God Butcher there are like 30 sub par to down right shitty story arcs, comic series, characters, etc.
I don't understand this at all. Makes no sense to me. I haven't bought Marvel regularly since the DnA cosmic books were cancelled. But DC still gets my money because he would I punish DC for my problems with Marvel?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
When you have a company whose management makes decisions to coddle/cater to creators like Nick Spencer over much, much better writers including G. Willow Wilson, Ta Nehisi Coates, David Walker, and Charles Soule, your company is going to get looked at sideways. Because it is obvious that there are high-ranking people in the company who are in charge of promoting and pushing talent, and they have bad instincts.
The business aspects of comics has always been a clusterfuck of one flavor or another, but when you add to that the people in charge consistently rewarding & promoting the least-skilled/talented writers on their bench? The spiral is only going to rotate faster & faster.
It's a company that has, for about a decade now, made sure to take care of all the wrong people populating its halls, and abandon/push out all the right ones.
The business aspects of comics has always been a clusterfuck of one flavor or another, but when you add to that the people in charge consistently rewarding & promoting the least-skilled/talented writers on their bench? The spiral is only going to rotate faster & faster.
It's a company that has, for about a decade now, made sure to take care of all the wrong people populating its halls, and abandon/push out all the right ones.
The fact that Marvel lost three of their "Architects" (Brubaker, Fraction and Hickman) is also a huge deal. They should have focused on keeping these guys happy and allowed their schedules to flow with creator-owned work. Instead they are all doing their own projects.
Axel Alonso has got to go along with some of the other editorial higher-ups, new blood is needed.
Pretty much, to them though, Bendis and Spencer are just as talented. Everyone else is either given something that should work yet Marvel pays no mind to it.
Al Ewing is prime example, dude makes books work and Marvel rarely gives a fuck. Dan Slott is STILL gonna be on Spidey when it should be the perfect time to change things only because he's their Scott Synder to them.
Margret Stohl should just have a prime Captain Marvel story but instead, 4 issues in, SECRET EMPIRE TIE IN.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yuuuup. They weren't quite "forced" out, but that company didn't do very much to make them feel like they were needed/wanted, either. And all of those guys liked working there at first. Wanted to keep working there. And any feelings of goodwill and appreciation just got ground right out of them.
They've had a lot of amazing talent that wanted to be loyal to the company, and were not rewarded appropriately. The people who work there that are rewarded are lower-tier creators, and—talent-level aside—often kinda shitty human beings, too.
That's the culture at a lot of the big two. It's insular, it's petty, and the people who benefit the most from maintaining that poisonous, backbiting atmosphere are the people in charge, and the people who play into it. Grown adults tend to not react/work well in a workplace cultivated to replicate the have & have-not heirarchies of junior high.
Who is "they?" What are you talking about?
You're literally not making any sense. If you're going to purposefully ignore what I said to you, why bother replying?
Outside of Walker I don't really agree with the names you picked.Soule is getting pushed with Astonishing X-Men and Vader coming, Wilson got A-Force before personal stuff got in the way, and Coates got a really big push. There are guys I would move up though in addition to some team shakeups.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
They're not being pushed/supported like many other names. They're not being taken care of. They're being burnt out.
They routinely put brilliant writers/artists behind the 8-ball, watch them make hay out of inherently compromised situations despite poor management/leadership, and watch their books eat shit anyway after the initial marketing push when management decides that some other project, run by some lesser creative team, is worth the time and energy to maintain their company's spotlight.
They have their best people on a mid-tier (if you're lucky) treadmill and it's demoralizing.
Bendis still has something in the tank but he's doing 4-5 books for no fucking reason. And was given an event after Age of Ultron bombed.
Marvel needs to step up their talent, DC is giving the DC Superhero Girls writer Wonder Woman, that's a big step up, I think it's a temp thing but still.
Also, Double Shipping 3.99 titles twice a month, not a good idea.
Outside of Walker's Cage book I don't think that's a concern. The others are on books that are safe and still being promoted. Coates and Walker also only just started working for Marvel in 2016 with BP being Coates first comic. The people who put out good work tend to be move up the chain, but they are slow with it at times.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
You are right. This has been true for a long, long time. And not just Marvel, and not just the last 10 years.
I know we're talking about Marvel, but I keep thinking back to Dwayne McDuffie's treatment with Justice League of America. The guy just came off the JLU cartoon, clearly had the hot hand and great ideas, and DC basically stifled him and the end product was underwhelming.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Not all that often. And when they are moved up that chain, they get burnt for it. It is absolutely a concern.
Marvel is bad at prioritizing. Their company's creative culture is one built on fearing/distrusting quality talent, and nurturing/promoting mediocrity.
They want quality people to feel mediocre. People higher up the chain feel more in control that way. Because for a lot of these middle aged men, their sense of control is worth more to them than the satisfaction in knowing they helped facilitate great storytelling.
This isn't isolated to comics, of course. This sort of struggle happens in all sorts of entertainment industries. But it's really pronounced in comics, partially because of the size of the industry (which is really small/insular) and partially because of the medium's backstage culture.
Who got burned by moving up?
Terrible idea. The writers would be forced to work within very tight borders. They could literally only work with characters -- even side characters and villains -- introduced in the movies because they're not going to be allowed to introduce characters into the MCU in a comic book.
It would be a disaster.
Also, assuming it would sell as well as their Star Wars comics is silly. Completely different products, different fan bases. It would not sell anything close to the Star Wars comics.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Do you think that is also why Coates has been put in the "only write comics starring black people" corner and Wilson has been put in the "muslim hero" corner
IrishNinja
Member
worse yet, when the did finally dabble a bit into creator-owned (i wanna say?) with Icon, it was clearly just a playground for Bendis & their favorites. it did nothing.
imagine if it would've allowed for newer talent to tell their own stories, the way say early Tsunami stuff did years back
i love most of those names, but as a Daredevil fan, Soule's not been doing it for me - he had tremendous shoes to fill, but i still can't enjoy his work nearly as much as say, Lemire over on Moon Knight/etc
point taken though, some of those names really should be the kinda talent they foster. Coates has done with Panther & lore what Hickman did for spy-marvel, which is build something other writers can play in for years to come.
the exodus of those 3 was tremendous, and a year later it's felt even harder. i can't blame them one bit for leaving to do their own Image books, but goddamn was marvel dumb to not do more to retain them, particularly Hickman - the only one that can still carry an event, much less universe-build.
yeah my assumption with guys like Land is the same i made for Larocca (sp?), Corben etc: they're work horses, and god knows if you look at this month's Ultimates you can see what happens when even lesser artists seem to have little time to finish up. i hate it though, and again literally hesitate to buy big things like omnibuses with inconsistent art like that.
yeah, Slott could easily get his own Untold Tales of/Tangled Web book if they wanted, not sure how he'd take it though. Bendis shines with his own playground of Alias & totally should get stuff like that ('d be open to see him on DD again for sure) but please, for the love of god, keep him off team books.
no doubt but then again they clearly haven't fostered talent to handle those corners outside of those two, hence the heavy lifting
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
That perfectly describes Marvel's handling of new writers lately. I remember everyone thought Coates writing Black Panther was gonna revolutionize Marvel.
Wilson wrote some issues of X-Men a few years ago before it got cancelled.
A lot of Black Panther fans actually hate the Coates run and the direction he decided to go.
Wilson also worked on A-Force before she had to pull out.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
She wrote A-Force and X-Men when it was an all female book. So she's the Muslim writer and the girl writer. At least shes boxed into two corners instead of one.
I'm sort of surprised people like Coates Black Panther run, there was a GAF thread a few months ago were everyone was pretty down on it.
Personally, I thought it was boring and stopped reading 4 or so issues in.
She has written one Muslim character that she created three years ago and others are using the character so I don't see how that makes her "the Muslim writer".
IrishNinja
Member
really? i wasn't aware of that, but then i've not followed much since Preist's run
also if you really wanna see when a writer wrecks shit for no reason, check out Kaare Andrew's Iron Fist run, it was awful & i dont know if the 2 series since then have bothered to fix things
LordRaptor
Member
Is it because they are boxed in, or because writers like to write about things that interest them when given the choice?
Green Ninja
Banned
By one person at Marvel, you mean. Who then retracted it. This was covered a few posts after the one you replied to.
IrishNinja
Member
seriously, i assume that dumb talking point is only still around out there past the quick retraction because shit-ass rich johnston & bleeding cool prolly fapped to it
Candescence
Member
Marvel and comic publishers need to:
Modern comics could also do well to poach Jump's model of packaging comics in magazines rather than as individual issues - it encourages cross-pollination of audiences who can read issues of comics they originally didn't intend to look at and possibly find stuff that they didn't realize they'd be interested in.
- Drop the number of titles, for God's sake, it's insane.
- Reduce comic prices where possible. Hell, if they must, use cheap paper and black and white like manga issues - comic issues aren't fucking collectors items, they're disposable, collections are what trades are for, you can save the fancy colours for those, dammit.
- Going hand-in-hand with the above, monthly issues in the internet age are no longer excusable for single issues with so little content. Weekly issues should be the norm, though to do that you'll need to cut colour and have artists focus on a single title each, but less titles with a single consistent creative team on each one is something comics should be doing anyway. Writers can work on multiple titles, but not too many.
- Keep crossovers that require any kind of outside context to a bare minimum. Do events entirely within their own dedicated books.
- Broaden the audience and start selling comics in more places. The direct market model is fucking cancer.
- Do something about Diamond's monopoly.
- Stop relaunching issues, and try to make it a lot easier for readers to know which issues are standalones or even in arcs.
Modern comics could also do well to poach Jump's model of packaging comics in magazines rather than as individual issues - it encourages cross-pollination of audiences who can read issues of comics they originally didn't intend to look at and possibly find stuff that they didn't realize they'd be interested in.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Based on everything Coates wrote about comics before he started writing BP, I'm relatively sure that he'd be writing X-Men if they gave him carte blanche.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The industry isn't gonna fuck over colorist just to lower the prices. Colorist already get enough shit for not being credited on books. In comics they're as important as the writer and the drawer. Even indie comics see the value in having a colorist.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Let's not overstate the case. Are they valuable? Yes. Are they as important as the penciller, inker, or writer? No way in hell.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, i have a hard time envisioning that break without all but giving up on the paper & print model, again with direct sales of TPBs & such. Diamond isn't going to let go of that distribution setup easily, and the struggle might not be worth it.
I have a hard time seeing how a comic with like 27 pages and 6 contributors must cost $3.99 to break even when an issue of Rolling Stone has like 120 pages, and about 20 contributors, and can get mailed to my house for $0.50 an issue.
Paper quality is a little better... but not THAT much better.
Edit: my point is there is clearly some waste in the comic ecosystem, thats caused by either a too small readerbase or just real inefficiencies in how they are distributed. Diamond is definitely a part of the problem.
oneils
Member
Great read. Interesting to see your perspective. If sales are poor, what do you do to make up for it? Push more merch? Or are there still franchises/comics that are popular?
It sounds to me like Marvel comics' senior VP of sales and marketing doesn't know how to read sales numbers. So much easier to blame the comics with diverse characters trying to reach out than try and make any serious changes to their business model. Idiots.
I was linked this article elsewhere and found it a really good read. I loved a lot of superhero cartoons as a kid and loooove the MCU, but I couldn't care less about the comics. Marvel's practices further convince me that I'm not missing much.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
There are comics where the drawers art style shines with the perfect colorist. They are important. More than half of Marvel and DC comics wouldn't look as good without a colorist.
I remember getting into X-Men as a kid because there was just one X-Men book that costs $1. The same creative team stayed on that book for years, and the story felt really cohesive and there was actual growth in the characters.
I remember trying to get back into X-Men a few years ago, and I had no idea where to start because there were multiple X-books on the shelf and Wolverine was in every single one of them. I decided to try again a bit later and there was a whole new set of low-numbered X-books on the shelf with some pretty dumb looking lineups.
At that point I just gave up.
I remember trying to get back into X-Men a few years ago, and I had no idea where to start because there were multiple X-books on the shelf and Wolverine was in every single one of them. I decided to try again a bit later and there was a whole new set of low-numbered X-books on the shelf with some pretty dumb looking lineups.
At that point I just gave up.
coates run is the extreme opposite of hudlins. its not worth the time