leatherhat
Member
Don't forget trying to have a final spirit bomb duel with Kid Buu instead of teleporting Gohan and Gotenks to the Kaoishin planet and having them kill him (it?).
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dragon Ball Super |OT7| Please wait for Tien to be cool.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
- Start date
- Status
Don't forget trying to have a final spirit bomb duel with Kid Buu instead of teleporting Gohan and Gotenks to the Kaoishin planet and having them kill him (it?).
ChaosZeroX
Banned
Right lol
I always thought he could of just used Instant Transmission to Gohan and he would of destroyed Kid Buu
And Buu not using instant transmission when he saw he was losing / before when he tried to interrupt Goku. Or hell just to dodge it.
Rewatching Buu saga as an adult made me really appreciate it. Easily my favorite iteration of Goku.
Also Vegeta killing himself will forever give me the feels.
ALSO, Mr Satan is just so easily lovable by the end of the arc. He is easily the bravest out of anyone in the show, plus Buu wouldn't have been defeated without him.
Satan is a great example of good writing. When people say dragonball has never had good writing everything to do with Satan from his introduction to the his role at the end disputes that.
Buu saga has some of my favorite moments and ideas in the series, so even though it drops the ball with its overall story with things like Gohan not getting the win despite being set up for it the whole arc, it's still hard for me to think badly of it. Things like Mr. Satan's friendship with Buu, finally completing Vegeta's character arc, Great Saiyaman, fusions, there's just a lot of fun things going on that I can't imagine the series without it.
Cell saga is always going to be the best though.
Cell saga is always going to be the best though.
Cell saga only takes a few days, and Goku, Gohan and Piccolo had been training at Goku's home during those years after Trunks' warning
I assume instant transmission takes some concentration and short time to pull off sometimes so Buu would have to give up blocking a little and would eat the genki dama before teleporting
or something like that
and he didn't dodge anyway cause he thought he could take it. I mean, at least he starts pushing back
Cell did the same thing and he had just learned instant transmission. you could argue that Buu was just a primal dumb guy so he wouldn't think of dodging, but Cell was supposed to be intelligent
And my point is that in the Cell Saga not only were the main characters dumb, so were the secondary characters and the villain with Vegeta being the main culprit since he was never really punished for his actions outside of a bruised ego. 18 being dumb is just inexcusable and Trunks' daddy issues is why I didn't like the character after that point.
It's not really the same thing since Black and Future Zamasu don't have the same cells and shouldn't bond on a cellular level and how can Merged Zamasu suddenly make clones of himself when he clearly didn't have the ability before. He resist the defusing, yet that someone equals Black and Future Zamasu suddenly becoming Merged Zamasu and can multiple by their body parts being blow off, come on now. Not to mention them defusing in the first place is a giant plot hole that Toyo still haven't filled.
As for Zamasu Essence, it works in the sense that only Merged Zamasu' body would be half-immortal, not his spirit. Him rewriting the laws of the universe is farfetched, but the explanation is pure word salad that I am sure Toyo made up one weekend.
Mikey Jr.
Member
So I'm about halfway through the Black arc.
Decided to start watching since I love Z so much.
Couple things, maybe spoilers.
1. When did Black and Goku switch bodies? Wasn't that Future Trunks timeline? and didn't Goku die from a heart attack in that era? Huh?
2. I can't believe what a puss Gohan is. Jesus. From one of my favourite characters (cell Gohan) to whatever the fuck this thing is.
3. Is it just me, or has this show gotten a lot more "kid friendly"? I don't think I've seen any blood, and any kills come from off screen.
4. Why is Goku such a goof ball now? Like, he was sort of a goof before, but this is extreme now. It's like every frame on screen, he is doing something stupid, or saying something stupid, or generally acting like an idiot.
Anyways, Super seems ok so far. Nothing mind blowing, but a FAR cry from Z, thats for damn sure. Will continue it. Just wish they'd move from the family channel.
Decided to start watching since I love Z so much.
Couple things, maybe spoilers.
1. When did Black and Goku switch bodies? Wasn't that Future Trunks timeline? and didn't Goku die from a heart attack in that era? Huh?
2. I can't believe what a puss Gohan is. Jesus. From one of my favourite characters (cell Gohan) to whatever the fuck this thing is.
3. Is it just me, or has this show gotten a lot more "kid friendly"? I don't think I've seen any blood, and any kills come from off screen.
4. Why is Goku such a goof ball now? Like, he was sort of a goof before, but this is extreme now. It's like every frame on screen, he is doing something stupid, or saying something stupid, or generally acting like an idiot.
Anyways, Super seems ok so far. Nothing mind blowing, but a FAR cry from Z, thats for damn sure. Will continue it. Just wish they'd move from the family channel.
1 is explained later
3 is true
4 dunno. may be Toriyama having more freedom than in the manga days
1. Is explained later
2. Will change for the better (way better)
3. Yes, but this is also Japan moving more and more to less gore in kids anime, but there is still death and blood so don't worry
4. He was always a goof ball like you said, but it's a bit extreme in the black arc, so yeah...
1. They'll talk about it soon.
2. He comes back in the next arc.
3. Yep, it's definitely toned down a lot even compared to other shounen shows.
4. This, I feel, depends on the script writer of a given episode. Some of them write Goku fine, others over exaggerate him to the extreme.
Woah Vegeta died, what a sick punishment, I'm sure those 4 hours in hell must have been tough dude. When you put things back into context, and realize Vegeta died and came back within the same day, it completely cheapens his death.
To him, his ego being bruised is all that matters. Hell that's all he cared about even in the Buu saga, he wasn't mad he died he was mad about SSJ3.
Plus his foolish actions caused his son to die and that caused him a lot of pain.
As for secondary characters being dumb in the Cell saga over the Buu saga, well that's a funny point because they do fucking nothing in the Buu saga with the exception of Satan (but he also was there in the Cell saga and served mostly the same role = gag character leading to the main hero succeeding).
I'm still waiting for you to explain that.
Whatever.
That Vegeta bit seems really interesting. Can't wait to see how that fits in.
I'm guessing that Mr. Satan bit will also help explain why he and Buu are so close and personable in Super then.
Romars202129
Member
Anyone else wish we could get a rough draft of the android saga pre changes? Hope its the very next extended universe thing after the Yamcha manga.
Both the version with Gero as main baddy, and 17 and 18 as main baddy. I bet Cell games was holdover from one of them. Seems way more 17s speed than Cells.
Both the version with Gero as main baddy, and 17 and 18 as main baddy. I bet Cell games was holdover from one of them. Seems way more 17s speed than Cells.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
> Toriyama
> story drafts
lmao
> story drafts
lmao
Romars202129
Member
Cell games and 16 being a copy of Gero's son are the 2 things that make me think there weresome things prepared in advance (for once?) that never went through
Either way, its nice to dream, lol.
this is like a perfect summary of how the US marketed DB lol
well at least Goku being taken down by the heart sickness would stay, given it was foreshadowed super early
maybe 19 and 20 they would have given the gang more trouble via their absorption abilities
16 was only recently revealed to be a copy of Gero's son
I doubt it was planned back then at all
it is possible the Cell games were planned for the android trio; after all a tournament doesn't make much sense for one opponent, but by the point the cell games start, everyone except Gohan and Goku had had their opportunity to shine. so if you take out Cell from the equation, a bunch of the fights where Vegeta, Trunks, Krillin and Tenshinhan participate are out too, so they going into a tournament could give them a little chance to shine
on the other hand, I don't see the androids much interested in a tournament. 18 will go onto the tenkaichi for money, but in the android saga she would just steal whatever she wanted, no need for money
The Cell games was likely Toriyama(or maybe his editor) thinking "Hey, I have this villain that embodies everything the heroes have had to deal with up until this point, why don't I make a tournament again as well since those played a big role before".
It's a fun little callback and like everything in the Cell saga, it worked out surprisingly well despite Toriyama making it up as he went along.
Looks like one of those silly AMVs from back in the day.
Why do you think it was so easy for Goten to go SSJ?
I have already explained this several times, but apparently you missed it, so I will repeat one last time: Vegeta not only died, he learned that his entire rematched with Goku was a lie since he was never Goku's equal after he sold his soul. So he threw aways his pride and dignity for nothing and died on a lie. On top of that, he's no used to Goku power-wise since he's weaker than any form of Buu and is basically just fusion fodder. This finally made Vegeta changed for the better instead of him having just a bout of conscience like in the Cell Saga. If you don't get it at this point, then you're not going to get it.
Oh his son died in the Cell Games, so what? It didn't get any lasting change out of him, unlike the what happened in the Buu Saga. It isn't like he gave a shit about Trunks until that moment.
I have already explained 18 several times, so read my previous posts on her.
Yeah, whatever. Trunks was a little bitch in the Cell Games.
It helps that he incorporated everything he had been hinting at with Gohan at the time. As a result it felt like a culmination of literally everything that had come before. It really felt like a generational hand-off, shame it didn't stick though.
One of my favorite moments after a recent retread with the Buu arc is that moment where Mr. Satan befriended Buu and they saved Bee the dog together from hunger and being injured and everything. Piccolo is just watching from above in the palace basically thinking 'this fucking joke of a guy just saved planet Earth'. Then it all gets ruined by a bunch of jerks who decide to shoot the dog and Mr Satan soon after. The look on Buu's face when that happened was like whoa. One of the more powerful, emotional scenes from that arc.
Romars202129
Member
Well whats more believable, a plot point that was made then, and never revealed because the story changed. Or that Toriyama is still thinking up new stuff for an old forgotten character like 16?
For 18 sure. For 17, the leader, and his love of games? Perfectly in character.
Thats the thing, Tourney felt so out of character for Cell, whom expressed no interest in anything outside his mission before then. They explained it away as his saiyan cells effecting his thinking, but thats kind of a reach.
The latter he does it all the time, Lunch, Tien, 17, Buu, Tao and Mr Satan etc
I assume he makes up stuff on the spot whenever a reporter asks about some obscure detail or whenever they are compiling those books with extra details for the series
he is known for not caring about how he is gonna get the characters out of a jam the following week while doing the manga, and that's for stuff that actually ended up being on the manga. stuff that didn't get to the manga? prolly completely forgotten, just like he forgot Launch
it's possible there was a backstory planned for android 16, but whether it was being modelled after Dr Gero's dead son is an open question. he would have come up with something else if Cell had not taken over the saga
imagine how the android saga works without Cell. 17 and 18 immediately kill Dr Gero and wake up 16. what's the point of 16 being a copy of Dr Gero's son? there was no way of it coming up as a dramatic plot point later
edit: checking, 17 kills Gero and wakes up 16 in the same chapter, 350. it's always possible that Gero would be brought back by some bullshit, but it is not hinted in the following chapters. Gero only warns them that 16 is unstable or something and then is killed
the first hint of Cell plays out in 357 (when Trunks destroyed time machine is reported) so that's more than a month between the younger androids taking over the plot and Cell taking over the plot, enough for the editor to go in and say "the android kids are no good. make another monster" but we receive no update on 16's having any personality, backstory or motives beyond killing Goku. Toriyama rarely does characters so mysterious. everyone blabs what their deal is almost immediately, so I assume that was the full 16 backstory. he was a robot Gero considered a failure
Yeah, making it so that Gohan has a villain who can do can do anything the people Goku faced could do and more in a tournament setting is just a perfect thematic way to pass the story onto a new generation, it's really amazing that everything fit together so well when we know Toriyama loves to make it all up as he goes along.
It may not have stuck in the long run, but that doesn't take away from just how well the whole thing works out for me.
It makes sense to me. Cell is pretty much a Saiyan in personality, once he reaches his perfect form he wants to show off his power and maybe even get in a good fight with it so he decides to make the tournament and give the heroes some time to prepare. It's not very different at all from when Vegeta decided to let Cell become perfect in the first place.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Speaking of Piccolo, I would have loved to see more scenes of him helping train Dende to be Earth's god.
I like their interactions a lot in the Buu arc.
Romars202129
Member
Yeah I know he adds stuff to existing characters. Kinda hard to have a story continue if you don't do that lol.
When does he randomly add back story to dead one off characters?
m_shortpants
Member
That was always my theory too hahaha.
He added all that stuff the series wasn't continuing though. He just randomly comes out with stuff sometimes like mr Satans encounter with Tao or Lunch living with Tien
Mr Satan's master and wife also have a story.If someone doesn't have a backstory it must be only because no one has asked Toriyama
Romars202129
Member
I agree its an open question.
That said, Yeah, I figured 16 was a holdover from when Gero was gonna be the big bad. Otherwise, during the android saga theres plenty of foreshadowing he's going to defy 17 and 18.
Most notably I remember is that angry glare he shoots 18 when she blows up the woods.
I imagine 16 story in the second version of the story was the same as the final.
Lol, he immediately inherited dem SS genes then.
Yeah I found goofball Goku Super to be super annoying. Always doing his n_n face makes me cringe everytime
At least he's being written better in the latest episodes it seems, so hopefully he won't go back to being a complete idiot any time soon.
JadedWriter
Member
Didn't Goku lie to Chi Chi and sneak out of his own house like a bitch just so he could go train?
wife calls me by my college nickname all the time, she can easily go months without mentioning my actual name. hell, her family does too
it's ok
they ain't gonna fuck up marketing with using a different name for some secondary characters. Goku can get away with being called Kakarot sometimes but he is the main character
Yeah, especially on the latest episode wich was great and one of my faves in a while. Hope he mantains that serious mood for once!
I don't know, he could have thrown his flying punch to get away from it too, or used his elongated legs and detach it from his body while pushing it back. Or use instant transmission to get behind Goku before he launched it and turn him into candy. He could have done many things besides trying to throw a kamehameha at it and then push it back.
Cell was distracted by Vegeta, so Cell didn't have the time to do anything. Buu wasn't distracted by anything once the Genkidama was fully formed.
So Vegeta got his ego crushed in the Cell saga, revealed he actually cared about his family despite him acting tough all that time, got his rival killed and lost his purpose for a while, which led him to become a decent dad to Trunks, and a decent husband for Bulma. But that doesn't matter ?
As for Vegeta changing for "the better", that change didn't last long either as we see in Super he went back into the competition as if nothing happened. If you meant that he softened up even more, sure, but that transformation clearly started in the Cell saga.
Have you ?
So I ask you how does she act dumb or like a moron, and your answer is "she acts dumb and like a moron".
That's very thorough.
K cool.
- Status