That was a pretty quick edit considering that it didn't generate the "Last Edited By" mark on his post.
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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens
- Thread starter Raticus79
- Start date
That was a pretty quick edit considering that it didn't generate the "Last Edited By" mark on his post.
RubberJohnny
Banned
I'm sure a mod can verify.
yeah right, no. At least not "after you replied", then it would have a "last edited" mark (but i did indeed added the second part after i send the post), please use other excuses.
It won't if you edit the post fast enough. That's why I said it had to have been a real fast edit.
yeah but he implied that i edited my posts "a lot" after he replied, which i didn't
Starbuck2907
Member
Too much hate in this thread. Seems like bashers jump in here every chance they get.
I'm fine with the loan. Loans are common and useful for businesses for a variety of reasons - not simply always because the company is broke. No one knows why they took out the loan, but I suspect it is beneficial in a variety of ways.
3.0 rolls out soon. Things are chugging along. I'm cool with it. Haters gonna hate.
I'm fine with the loan. Loans are common and useful for businesses for a variety of reasons - not simply always because the company is broke. No one knows why they took out the loan, but I suspect it is beneficial in a variety of ways.
3.0 rolls out soon. Things are chugging along. I'm cool with it. Haters gonna hate.
Man, I went to sleep and woke up to 5 pages to catch up on. We're still pretty much stuck on the same points as we were in the discord due to the limited info. It would be great to hear more from someone who's familiar with this kind of arrangement.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the interpretation that they needed the liquidity.
Personally, I'm leaning toward the interpretation that they needed the liquidity.
I'm of the mindset that we should just wait and see how it all turns out before pointing fingers and saying "hah I told you so" like some people have like it's the end of the game.
I'm no financial expert, nor have I attempted any such calculations, if not in my head, but looking at CIG's size and the time it's taking them ... One can easily imagine that 150M$ won't cut it, even with all the tax breaks, national game dev funds, etc. I always thought they'd have to turn elsewhere for money, eventually, to push the game to a state where it may become self-sustaining. So no real surprise there as far as I'm concerned.
Cabbagehead
Member
lol, i see the FUD campaign. Orchestrated by Smart and SA. In including all the folks that want to see this project fail. Got shut down again for pushing baseless garbage. Its like clockwork, seeing all my ignored posters comments in here.
They always visit during these type of events.
That other thread was sicking though. The glee i saw in people's post was disturbing. They'll believe anything without context and a little doom and gloom. One guy literally called CIG's community update videos -propaganda, like wtf? talk about double standards.
Jumping to conclusions without fact checking. Seems to be Neogaf MO.
They always visit during these type of events.
That other thread was sicking though. The glee i saw in people's post was disturbing. They'll believe anything without context and a little doom and gloom. One guy literally called CIG's community update videos -propaganda, like wtf? talk about double standards.
Jumping to conclusions without fact checking. Seems to be Neogaf MO.
staticneuron
Member
Given the milestones they are about to hit, I felt that they will have much more to show which in turn brings in more people investing in game. The next month or so, it is projected for 3.0 PTU and the production schedule makes things look positive for S42. I wouldn't be surprised if they have blocked out Episodes 2 and 3 already.
Other than Roberts forever building the same game, not really. I mean given its userbase, SC actually could be appealing to external buyers, regardless of the state of the product. But they are also a lot bigger, multi studio entity, not sure how appealing 'that' is nowadays...aaaaa0 said:
Cabbagehead
Member
I mean at this point. That loan has more in common with a grant then anything.
That bank is really strict, with who their clients are. I wonder what they showed them.
It's a bit odd that CIG didn't release a statement on a loan with, however unlikely the case might be of it actually taking effect with THAT low of an interest rate, such a high collateral. Especially when they pride themselves on being so open with development.
I'm personally speculating that they either have something absolutely mind blowing to showcase and are going to rely on that to speak for them, or absolutely nothing and they're desperate for a bit more time to get something out and are keeping mum on the loan as a result. Of course it could also be that they didn't think it was a really big deal but, given the knee-jerk reaction that's already been had, you'd think someone at the team would think to respond by now if the game's state isn't one of those two extremes. Even some sort of fluffy PR feel-good brief statement just to assuage concerns.
Edit: I really do hope it's the former, star citizen sounds like an amazing game and I'd like for it to actually come out.
I'm personally speculating that they either have something absolutely mind blowing to showcase and are going to rely on that to speak for them, or absolutely nothing and they're desperate for a bit more time to get something out and are keeping mum on the loan as a result. Of course it could also be that they didn't think it was a really big deal but, given the knee-jerk reaction that's already been had, you'd think someone at the team would think to respond by now if the game's state isn't one of those two extremes. Even some sort of fluffy PR feel-good brief statement just to assuage concerns.
Edit: I really do hope it's the former, star citizen sounds like an amazing game and I'd like for it to actually come out.
TheVoidDragon
Member
Aren't you now going against what you said before? Your previous post was you taking issue with that. You claimed that what Gaync said about them potentially doing this because it works out more financially viable than paying the expenses themselves was "rubbish" and then said that them putting up collateral was bad and if they weren't in trouble and were doing well they'd just get a loan without collateral:
So there is a reason that it would have collateral that doesn't relate to financial problems. Getting a secured loan (which needs collateral) can lead to better terms for the loan and better interest rates, which would fit in with what Gaync posted.
RubberJohnny
Banned
I feel you're focusing on semantic minutiae here rather than asking the core question, which is why after taking $150 million of gamers money do they need a(nother) loan?
TheVoidDragon
Member
You've already had a reason told though, the exact thing my (and your previous posts) posts were relating to:
So Ganyc posts an explanation for the loan, you refuse it and say there's no reason for collateral, then get told a reason for the collateral that lines up with Ganyc's explanation, now are saying there's no explanation for the loan...
Cabbagehead
Member
Why would CIG make a statement about how they do their financially upkeep? Does any other open development project do that? no...so let's cut the double standards. They are a privately held company, with no stocks. They only have their assets and the game itself. The IP was and is not part of that collateral. I wish people with little to no knowledge of different types of banking loans and or uk banking and finance. Would stop in general.
People keep bringing the "it's 150 million why do they need more, where did the money go?" comment. It's not $150 million paid upfront at once, it was money generated over time since the Kickstarter was launched. It's been several years, it's an ambitious project and there are hundreds of people working who needed to be paid a salary during all these years.
That's where the money went, even an average salary of 60K per year over 5 years, is like $28 million per year on salary alone which would run out in 5 years in total. This is not even including the additional cost of having an office, equipments etc etc.
Just because they took a loan does not mean they are going to go bankrupt or have financial "troubles", quite a lot of time a loan is meant to support a business in order to keep supporting the good work. It says something about the confidence of a team that they are willing to take a loan to continue working on it. Yes they have missed deadlines but it's also a game that is more ambitious than anything we've ever seen. Yes there was a feature creep from what was originally advertised during the kickstarter but we are past it now. They have been open about the development, we have had playable sections. And while people like to bring up Elite as an example of a similar kind of game that got launched 2-3 years ago, I want to ask those people to compare what Elite has available right now vs what Star Citizen has available right now and tell me which one looks more close to being done.
There's also the fact that UK banking has differences from American banking and Coutts wouldn't just give out loan to a company that's about to fail just to make money on their assets (I realise banks do that, not particularly American bans, but this is not that kind of bank).
That's where the money went, even an average salary of 60K per year over 5 years, is like $28 million per year on salary alone which would run out in 5 years in total. This is not even including the additional cost of having an office, equipments etc etc.
Just because they took a loan does not mean they are going to go bankrupt or have financial "troubles", quite a lot of time a loan is meant to support a business in order to keep supporting the good work. It says something about the confidence of a team that they are willing to take a loan to continue working on it. Yes they have missed deadlines but it's also a game that is more ambitious than anything we've ever seen. Yes there was a feature creep from what was originally advertised during the kickstarter but we are past it now. They have been open about the development, we have had playable sections. And while people like to bring up Elite as an example of a similar kind of game that got launched 2-3 years ago, I want to ask those people to compare what Elite has available right now vs what Star Citizen has available right now and tell me which one looks more close to being done.
There's also the fact that UK banking has differences from American banking and Coutts wouldn't just give out loan to a company that's about to fail just to make money on their assets (I realise banks do that, not particularly American bans, but this is not that kind of bank).
exactly this
(my name is Ganyc btw ^^)
and a reddit quote from boredgamer:
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6j828y/cig_recently_took_out_a_loan_from_coutts_co_in/
The statement is not even remotely true, it's just some people got confused OR wanted to run with clickbait OR to troll.
It appears that one of the studios has a loan of an undetermined amount at a base rate of 0.25%, that rate of interest being amazing as you could invest money like that and make more even just in another account.
The loan could be for many reasons, liquidity, maybe it's hard for them to move money around the studios without tax, maybe it's to improve credit rating.
The bank does not own star citizen, the loan is almost certainly there to make the most of their money/effectively make more money, it does not mean they are in any form of financial problems.
And upon reading further it could be the mortgage/rent on a property or studio.
0,25 base rate is indeed amazing. i am on boredgamers side with this one
Outrun
Member
MasterOfPastures
Banned
Man... this has been an interesting weekend.
I wanted to just say I think that 3.0 release will be tied the week of or before Gamescom. Makes the most sense for exposure and PR. Avocado testers might spoil the impact if leaks happened.
Either way, I am really looking forward to what they have to show.
I wanted to just say I think that 3.0 release will be tied the week of or before Gamescom. Makes the most sense for exposure and PR. Avocado testers might spoil the impact if leaks happened.
Either way, I am really looking forward to what they have to show.
Cabbagehead
Member
He don't care. He knows that he's wrong and has no idea. He just like getting a hard on about CIG possibility being in some form of trouble. Regardless if it's true or not. I wish the mods would deal with his antics. But that's not my place.
Outrun
Member
I mean you seem to be sporting a half chub at the idea of shouting down skeptics.
He's overzealous in his negativity, and you (and many others) are overzealous in just labeling the naysayers as part of the Derek Smart conspiracy against this game.
Sounds a lot like politics these days....
I'd agree, but some people do give Derek Smart undue credibility despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. A reasonable person would not use the same talking points, or if they did, they'd certainly be a little less sure of their point of view given the dearth of information.
There is a fair degree of people pushing on this that seem all too sure that they're correct, despite having neither the expertise nor the concrete information.
They have not put up the whole company as collateral. The loan is filed with Foundry 42 Limited and not Cloud Imperium Games, LLC. Despite your claims they have also not put up the Star Citizen IP or source code as part of the collateral either. Section 1 at the end of the PDF document clearly defines several points of interest including what exactly constitutes "code" and "intellectual property" so that there is no misinterpretation about what is at play here. Had those items been given up as you claim, then they would have been clearly listed using the language of the document in Section 4, which is where it lists exactly what assets are included as part of the collateral to secure the loan. Section 5 lists the rights granted to those assets "should" the lone be defaulted.
All the confusion around this is why I'd imagine it'd be in their best interests to deliver at least a small statement clarifying things or at least saying everything's fine. Hopefully it means they're just expecting their next content dump to speak for itself.
Crowdfunding, by its very nature, lives and dies on PR which is why I find it so strange they haven't at least said something. That's why I personally find it odd they haven't made a statement for a situation that might not cause so much as a raised eyebrow for another company - it's a mix of the situation surrounding the game as well as the current situation.
It's not necessarily something I'd personally demonize CIG for, but I also personally can't help but feel that they'd be well served by putting out at least some kind of statement to put people's concerns to rest. If they choose not to do so, well, I suppose this will either wither out if they have something substantial to demo in the near-future or hit a fever pitch if they don't.
So RubberJohnny is talking out of his ass and desperately wants SC to fail so he can feel vindicated? Man some people are fucked.
iHaunter
Member
Even Apple took a loan from the same bank and they're worth Billions.
It could also be to easier transfer assets from UK to other offices which is most likely the case. Derek Sharts goons are flooding everywhere with mis-information and ignorance.
Jesus people go outside and breathe some air (not you person I'm quoting, rubberpuppet).
CIG never talks about their finances. The only peeks we get are the total funding tracker, and by financial filings in the UK which are public by law. (Where that loan news came from, BTW.)
EDIT: Well damn, proven wrong in about 3 minutes. Here's RSI's statement on the loan.
EDIT 2: So this is an advance on tax rebates due F42. Not too unlike a tax refund advance here in the States, but considering the pedigree of Coutts & Co., it'll be an advance without any of the predatory lending policies most tax refund advances shackle you with.
from Ortwin
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...hread/re-uk-tax-rebate-advance-for-foundry-42
"We have noticed the speculations created by a posting on the website of UK's Company House with respect to Coutt's security for our UK Tax Rebate advance, and we would like to provide you with the following insight to help prevent some of the misinformation we have seen.
Our UK companies are entitled to a Government Game tax credit rebate which we earn every month on the Squadron 42 development. These rebates are payable by the UK Government in the fall of the next following year when we file our tax returns. Foundry 42 and its parent company Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd. have elected to partner with Coutts, a highly regarded, very selective, and specialized UK banking institution, to obtain a regular advance against this rebate, which will allow us to avoid converting unnecessarily other currencies into GBP. We obviously incur a significant part of our expenditures in GBP while our collections are mostly in USD and EUR. Given today's low interest rates versus the ongoing and uncertain currency fluctuations, this is simply a smart money management move, which we implemented upon recommendation of our financial advisors.
The collateral granted in connection with this discounting loan is absolutely standard and pertains to our UK operation only, which develops Squadron 42. As a careful review of the security will show and contrary to some irresponsible and misleading reports, the collateral specifically excludes ”Star Citizen." The UK Government rebate entitlement, which is audited and certified by our outside auditors on a quarterly basis, is the prime collateral. Per standard procedure in banking, our UK companies of course stand behind the loan and guarantee repayment which, however, given the reliability of the discounted asset (a UK Government payment) is a formality and nothing else. This security does not affect our UK companies' ownership and control of their assets. Obviously, the UK Government will not default on its rebate obligations which will be used for repayment, and even then the UK companies have ample assets to repay the loan, even in such an eventuality which is of course unthinkable.
This should clarify the matter. Thank you."
who would have known? (hint: the people with loan/tax experience)
edit: aww too slow ^^
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...hread/re-uk-tax-rebate-advance-for-foundry-42
"We have noticed the speculations created by a posting on the website of UK's Company House with respect to Coutt's security for our UK Tax Rebate advance, and we would like to provide you with the following insight to help prevent some of the misinformation we have seen.
Our UK companies are entitled to a Government Game tax credit rebate which we earn every month on the Squadron 42 development. These rebates are payable by the UK Government in the fall of the next following year when we file our tax returns. Foundry 42 and its parent company Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd. have elected to partner with Coutts, a highly regarded, very selective, and specialized UK banking institution, to obtain a regular advance against this rebate, which will allow us to avoid converting unnecessarily other currencies into GBP. We obviously incur a significant part of our expenditures in GBP while our collections are mostly in USD and EUR. Given today's low interest rates versus the ongoing and uncertain currency fluctuations, this is simply a smart money management move, which we implemented upon recommendation of our financial advisors.
The collateral granted in connection with this discounting loan is absolutely standard and pertains to our UK operation only, which develops Squadron 42. As a careful review of the security will show and contrary to some irresponsible and misleading reports, the collateral specifically excludes ”Star Citizen." The UK Government rebate entitlement, which is audited and certified by our outside auditors on a quarterly basis, is the prime collateral. Per standard procedure in banking, our UK companies of course stand behind the loan and guarantee repayment which, however, given the reliability of the discounted asset (a UK Government payment) is a formality and nothing else. This security does not affect our UK companies' ownership and control of their assets. Obviously, the UK Government will not default on its rebate obligations which will be used for repayment, and even then the UK companies have ample assets to repay the loan, even in such an eventuality which is of course unthinkable.
This should clarify the matter. Thank you."
who would have known? (hint: the people with loan/tax experience)
edit: aww too slow ^^
jakonovski
Member
Have you checked CIG's page on the Companies House site?
edit: well there it is from the horse's mouth.
Cabbagehead
Member
Paging the haters....Paging the haters.
Where art thou! the CIG kingdom isn't falling it's getting it's due credit.
Where art thou! the CIG kingdom isn't falling it's getting it's due credit.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Does this news deserve it's own thread considering that any new SC threads are likely to have people perpetuating the fake news that the game was in financial trouble? Since i sorta doubt they check this thread regularly.
Shocking. Internet morons Dunning Krugered their way into looking stupid.
staticneuron
Member
Pshhhh! But of course they are going to say that! They are not going to admit that they are out of money and the game is vaporware, right?
/s
TheVoidDragon
Member
It seems that's the exact reason that Ganyc posted earlier, the low interests rates mean it's a better option than transferring money from elsewhere.
Fake news!
Seriously though they could enjoy the weekend and issue this tomorrow.
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I think opening old one with info to this explanation in the title would not be bad idea.
Dictator93
Member
Frankly, they would be mad not to use this approach. GBP is not going to be stable in the next period.
Camp Freddie
Member
I'm amazed they can get .25% selling pound futures. That's one hell of a low rate and the GBP is not likely to rise in the next year. Was this deal done before the GE when Couts expected GBP to rise on a Tory landslide? Is Chris Roberts the Jeremy Corbyn of gaming?
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