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[adversarial]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

 

[Niceguydan8]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

I think they want their game to have a Halo-like multiplayer in terms of balance, but have designed a game that, even in it's current state, just isn't there.

 

[Darkstorne]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

Yep, biggest mistake they made imo. They reduced class customization, and massively reduced weapon and armour variety, all in the name of "balanced PVP". Great... that sounds fun...

It's frustrating that Bungie is refusing to embrace the MMORPG aspects of this franchise, has deliberately shifted away from it even more than D1 did, despite the community practically begging for more MMO-like aspects to the game. At the same time though they're leaving the door wide open for a competitor to steal the market, whether that's Bioware with Anthem or some other contender. I wouldn't be surprised if Borderlands 3 goes this route actually.

But certainly, the lack of big open world environments for me to fall in love with, and the restriction on class and character customization, is the reason I haven't bought the game. They were my main issues with Destiny 1 (along with the lack of DLC exploration zones), and I really hoped Destiny 2 would be pushing big open world MMO designs when it dumped last gen consoles. Instead it's pretty much identical in size to D1, but what confuses me even more is we all KNOW the EDZ was a D1 zone that got cut for inclusion in the sequel. So who knows why it took them so long to only create three more small planets for D2...

 

[deviant1]

I mean, I think the solution to this is to allow weapon mods to be weapon perks. If we could craft explosive rounds into different scouts, then people would use more than just nameless midnight in PvE, etc.

I agree with this. Or they could add another style of infusion that would allow you to either add or swap out a perk from a weapon.

The current mod system for weapons is a joke.

 

[JWiLL]

I still find a lot of the defensive posts in this thread strange.

Wanting/expecting Bungie to launch a game with more meaningful content or deeper in game systems isn't asking for D2 to be like a "2nd job".

I want the mods and elements to actually impact my gameplay further than "this gun shoots blue pew pews so it hurts blue shields". This is a game with a massive budget and it had 1000 people working on it, why is Warframe with it's 170 developers 100x more intricate with their systems?

Nobody is asking them to go crazy with it like Warframe does. Just go 10% of the way there. Give us varied builds. Give us armor sets that mean something. Give us deeper customization options. Make our ships matter. Give us a photo mode. Give us ANY sort of depth.

Casual gamers can handle it - many won't even know or care about a lot of it, but it gives the dedicated players something to play for. It's really not THAT hard.

Bungie KNOWS they have a hardcore fanbase. They're the reason D1 did as well as it did. To act as though they're intentionally making their experience worse is a strange excuse for what's more than likely just poor decision making or lack of vision from the design team.

 

[DarkJC]

They have so much untapped potential with mods, it feels like a very late addition to the game. Weapon mods feel like they were thrown in at the last second, especially kinetic. Imagine if weapon mods could actually modify characteristics of the weapon? Why are counterbalance and weapon handling mods on armor?

Activities could also drop unique mods. Similar to shaders, maybe you'd be incentivized to raid more because you wanted to collect more of the raid specific mod that does something awesome. There's so much more they could do with that system alone.

That said, I think Destiny 2 lays a much better foundation than the first game, and I think comes across as much more accessible as well. Even given some of its legitimate problems, I'm super excited for what's coming next. They started conservative with the loot and mods, but I feel like there's a lot of room with the systems they have in place to continue adding depth.

 

[Orthogonal]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

Balancing for PvP nerfed a ton of stuff unnecesarily for PvE in D1 as well. They probably need to change the loot design philosophy to have perks/abilities/modifiers that are PvE only so only the base characteristics go into PvP. Just have a Base column in each item for PvP and another column or set of columns only effecting PvE, kinda like how the Raid gear in D1 had raid specific perks. Then they wont have to worry so much about balance effecting vastly different modes.

 

[edornob]

Just wanted to point out 1 thing absolutely wrong with the article - High Caliber Rounds

TripleWreck states that all weapons with HCR are the better choices because of it's flinch abilities.This is a stigma that plagues the community from trying out other weapons.

Today, Cammycakes and his team tested this popular opinion and it turns out that THIS IS FALSE! and goes out of his way to name great alternative weapons that the community is missing out on because it lacks HCRs.

As for the grind and end game, I'll treat it the same as D1. Just have fun.

 

[DarkJC]

Balancing for PvP nerfed a ton of stuff unnecesarily for PvE in D1 as well. They probably need to change the loot design philosophy to have perks/abilities/modifiers that are PvE only so only the base characteristics go into PvP. Just have a Base column in each item for PvP and another column or set of columns only effecting PvE, kinda like how the Raid gear in D1 had raid specific perks. Then they wont have to worry so much about balance effecting vastly different modes.

This seems to be a thing game designers are really averse to, as if it's cheating or something. WoW had a similar problem for years and years and resisted until they finally committed to separate them for good in the latest expansion.

 

[Flying Toaster]

I still find a lot of the defensive posts in this thread strange.

Wanting/expecting Bungie to launch a game with more meaningful content or deeper in game systems isn't asking for D2 to be like a "2nd job".

I want the mods and elements to actually impact my gameplay further than "this gun shoots blue pew pews so it hurts blue shields". This is a game with a massive budget and it had 1000 people working on it, why is Warframe with it's 170 developers 100x more intricate with their systems?

Nobody is asking them to go crazy with it like Warframe does. Just go 10% of the way there. Give us varied builds. Give us armor sets that mean something. Give us deeper customization options. Make our ships matter. Give us a photo mode. Give us ANY sort of depth.

Casual gamers can handle it - many won't even know or care about a lot of it, but it gives the dedicated players something to play for. It's really not THAT hard.

Bungie KNOWS they have a hardcore fanbase. They're the reason D1 did as well as it did. To act as though they're intentionally making their experience worse is a strange excuse for what's more than likely just poor decision making or lack of vision from the design team.

After playing Warframe because of the Steam pricing fiasco I agree. I am starting to want to see more depth in D2.

 

[pantsmith]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

My personal belief is that ranked/competitive pvp should feature set weapons everyone has access to, like Counter Strike, and then casual should have access to everything in player inventories.

Balance is important for the competetive scene, but maybe less so if the casual scene looks closer to what Mayhem looked like in D1 (a mode a lot of my less pvp friendly buddies were way more open to playing, anyway)

 

[MeBecomingI]

I kind of agree with Slayerage, ultimately.

I wouldn't mind there being a more randomized element to loot drops. Perks from the first Destiny were awesome. I hate that is gone now. The current system can be just awful to you. For example, I was grinding out some public events a few days ago and I got a few exotic engrams; only to turn them in and have all of them be the same item. Though it would still suck, it would be nice to have each of those items have different perks so that you don't just immediately dismantle them for a few worthless Legendary Shards and a little bit of Glimmer and feel like you just wasted an hour or so of your time. At least the different perks would give you pause to see if they work out for your build or something. That goes for both armor and weapons.

I do often find myself getting duplicates far, far more often in Destiny 2 than I did in Destiny. Again, it's stuff like that that makes the game frustrating. I just feel like they took a huge step back in terms of the quality of the loot. I don't think the system of getting engrams is necessarily bad, in fact I quite like it, but often what comes from those engrams are essentially worthless.

I also agree that the game has been completely flipped in order to "balance" the PvP, which is an awful, awful decision. PvP should absolutely be a good, balanced mode, but not at the cost of making PvE far less enjoyable.

I really like the game, but it also pains me a lot because it could be so much more than what it currently is. It just feels very incomplete.

 

[adversarial]

My personal belief is that ranked/competitive pvp should feature set weapons everyone has access to, like Counter Strike, and then casual should have access to everything in player inventories.

Balance is important for the competetive scene, but maybe less so if the casual scene looks closer to what Mayhem looked like in D1 (a mode a lot of my less pvp friendly buddies were way more open to playing, anyway)

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

Would that not almost immediately relieve any of these "balance" issues, and allow them to reintroduce exciting weapons to the PVE game?

I didn't play D1 much, but from what I've noticed in D2, I've never had one of those "WOW" moments that I'll remember down the line, like a lot of you guys had in D1. I love loot-based games, I still play WoW and raid at a high level because I'm a sucker for Best-In-Slot gear, but something is missing in D2.

 

[Bold One]

Somewhere in the middle that existed after 3 years worth of updates to the original game? I don't get all of the vanilla Destiny comparisons. They had a lot of solutions for the vanilla problems in their expansions and they threw out almost all of them.


.

Simply stating 'Year 3' is really vague. What are the solutions that year 3 had that would solve D2's problems?

Destiny year 3 is a culmination of nearly 4 years of buff, nerfs, rejigs and a wholesale change of personnel and vision which has resulted in the Destiny we have today.

 

[katsais]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

Yup. Destiny would greatly benefit from a separate PvE and PvP experience. I think it’s a load of bullshit when Bungie says that they want the experience to be the same. I think it’s more of a resources (manpower, time, money, etc) issue. The same reasons why there are no dedicated servers or a new netcode or 60fps. If these things were in place, I would play the shit out of PvP, even with the balancing issues that they constantly face.

 

[Jest Chillin]

-The end of Destiny 1 was a solid base. They literally threw most of that stuff out in favor of something else. That's okay, but the game was in a pretty okay spot by the end of Destiny 1's life cycle.

-My experience with the NF and Raid was already like that. The game was, at least to me, way too easy before the Nightfall and Raid and then it was challenging . I don't see it as "too easy vs. too hard," rather that the spike of new and difficult stuff just kinda comes out of left field. I'll contrast this with my experiences with the latest FFXIV expansion, that would introduce certain mechanics that would show up later during the campaign. Some of the raid mechanics were introduced in a dungeon. It was a much steadier build up to the difficult stuff, whereas I think Destiny 2 demands very little out of the player for the most part and then all of the sudden demands stuff out of the player. I think there is a better build up opportunity that frankly, I think they should be better at in this point of the series.

-This whole thread is about the sweeping changes you are talking about. There are people that felt that the game already had a solid base and made sweeping changes to an already solid formula.

-Also, I'm not sure why somebody would want an RPG where the progression feels entirely flat. If that's the case, just get rid of the RPG elements. Power level is basically useless, level in general is basically useless. I guess I just don't understand why the RPG systems even exist when they keep stripping them down so much. Just get rid of it all, make a Halo-esque game and at the very least we will know what we are getting before going in. It won't be some weird hybrid that does fantastically well as a shooter but has hollow shells of RPG systems.

Destiny 1 absolutely did not have a solid base. The way the weapons were designed made it extremely difficult to make balance adjustments, which is why the meta kept shifting dramatically and why PvP changes had such a drastic effect on PvE performance as well.

The NF and Raid really aren't significantly more difficult. Players often times make the NF more difficult by trying to rush through it due to the timer. When a team communicates and moves at a steady pace, it's fine. The Raid, however, is complex and requires solid execution from everyone. People can't get carried through it. That's all. Both activities need deliberate play and focus. When that's there, it's just a matter of learning. Learning where anomolys and gates are. Learning the raid fight patterns.

D1 to D2 isn't "sweeping changes" it's rebuilding during soft relaunch. They made changes to create a solid base in D2 during a time when they could. People preferring what they were used to does not mean that what they were used to was solid.

Progression isn't flat. It just doesn't go into overdrive like a Saints Row game. MMO's do this. D1 did this. Current content is always a challenge and even when current content is on farm (everyone geared to max) the current content isn't trivial. It's easier at that point but not something you can sleepwalk through. New content release raising the progression bar and players climb again.

Just wanted to point out 1 thing absolutely wrong with the article - High Caliber Rounds

TripleWreck states that all weapons with HCR are the better choices because of it's flinch abilities.This is a stigma that plagues the community from trying out other weapons.

Today, Cammycakes and his team tested this popular opinion and it turns out that THIS IS FALSE! and goes out of his way to name great alternative weapons that the community is missing out on because it lacks HCRs.

As for the grind and end game, I'll treat it the same as D1. Just have fun.

While this is the best way they could test this, it's not really indicative of "real world" effectiveness. It doesn't take into account the shooting angle, strafing, variable distances between target, impact or the effect of flinch during recoil. Other perks may be similar in effectiveness (explosive rounds) to HCR and guns with the exact same stats will perform closely to each other but it's not a negligible difference.

 

[Trakan]

Can we stop pretending God-Rolls are / were irrelevant somehow?

I never got a Grasp of Malok through regular play during The Taken King. I stopped playing for a while and came back when I heard people raving about it with specific perks and so I wanted to try it out. So I had to do the Omnigul Strike (after the kill-her-at-the-start-bug had been fixed) over and over and over again. And I got the Bond. And the Bond. And another Bond. And the Bond again. etc. Then when it finally dropped it had some of the worst possible perks on it. Yes, the base gun was still usable, but it did not have the perks that I wanted on it which meant I had to either give up and stick with what I had or continue grinding for a perfect drop. That is not a fun time in ANY way.

Now that might have been different for you, or for others, but RNG rolls were nothing but a bad experience for me and many others. You can't just up and dismiss that or constantly make this divide between 'casuals who don't care' and 'hardcore players who loved the grind'.

See also when shotguns ruled D1 Crucible and you were the one person in the match who didn't have a god-roll Matador. If you used another shotgun you were at a disadvantage. Yes you could make up that disadvantage through playing differently, but if you want to play with a shotgun and want to use the best one out there and you hear everyone raving about the Matador with range perks and everyone is killing you with it all the time but the Matador that drops for you drops with crap perks you have no interest in using, then THAT IS A TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE and most definitely not worth that one adrenaline burst when you get it after lots of grinding right before shotgun range perks get nerfed on the whole.

Full RNG perks as in D1 are a really really bad idea even with a grindy re-roll system. Some RNG element can be introduced and I agree that a bit more meaningful grind would be appreciated, but that should come through a new system not anything like D1's RNG perks (like every gun having a fixed signature perk with the barrel / sights / second perk being RNG mods on drop which you can swap out with mods you gathered yourself) and the addition of more loot in general and unique loot from strikes and more unique properties on for example Trials and Raid armor.

EDIT:

I'll also add that the weapon I ended up having the most fun with at the end of D1 was the Triple Tap / Firefly Hung Jury. The one you could buy straight from the vendor with fixed perks. I did not have to grind to get it to drop and then grind more to get it to drop better or to improve the one that dropped. No, you just bought it from Dead Orbit. If it had been an RNG drop with RNG perks, I likely would have never been able to find the Triple Tap / Firefly drop. Being able to get that gun with those specific perks from the vendor allowed me to just get and use an insanely fun and satisfying weapon without having to grind for days upon days worth of time. That took literally nothing away from my enjoyment of Destiny; it only added to it.

I hold the opinion that the problem with D2 loot isn't that it isn't RNG enough, it's that Bungie seems to be holding back massively with cool / unique perk combos for future DLC, that there is a lack of unique drops for Strikes and unique perks for Raid and Trials armor, that the current token system is too generous and too omnipresent, and that Xur / the Legendary Shard economy is completely broken.

Static rolls work in theory. They do not with the way Bungie has implemented them. There is no D1 Hung Jury equivalent in D2. Every weapon has a roll equal to that of the shitty Grasp you mentioned. If every roll was unique, interesting, and worth using you'd be hearing less complaints about going back to RNG perks. They're not holding anything back for DLCs, they're doing it for some shitty resemblance of balance.

I still find a lot of the defensive posts in this thread strange.

Wanting/expecting Bungie to launch a game with more meaningful content or deeper in game systems isn't asking for D2 to be like a "2nd job".

I want the mods and elements to actually impact my gameplay further than "this gun shoots blue pew pews so it hurts blue shields". This is a game with a massive budget and it had 1000 people working on it, why is Warframe with it's 170 developers 100x more intricate with their systems?

Nobody is asking them to go crazy with it like Warframe does. Just go 10% of the way there. Give us varied builds. Give us armor sets that mean something. Give us deeper customization options. Make our ships matter. Give us a photo mode. Give us ANY sort of depth.

Casual gamers can handle it - many won't even know or care about a lot of it, but it gives the dedicated players something to play for. It's really not THAT hard.

Bungie KNOWS they have a hardcore fanbase. They're the reason D1 did as well as it did. To act as though they're intentionally making their experience worse is a strange excuse for what's more than likely just poor decision making or lack of vision from the design team.

Destiny 1 absolutely did not have a solid base. The way the weapons were designed made it extremely difficult to make balance adjustments, which is why the meta kept shifting dramatically and why PvP changes had such a drastic effect on PvE performance as well.

I've heard nothing to suggest that the way weapons were designed was the reason why it was difficult to make balance adjustments. I've heard them say they couldn't target one specific gun and had to do blanket adjustments, but there have been targeted nerfs before to guns both legendary/exotic so the statement makes even less sense.

PVP changes only had drastic effects on PVE performance due to Bungie's poor gameplay philosophy that it has to behave the exact same way in both PVE and PVP. It's really where most of D2's problems stem from.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I've heard nothing to suggest that the way weapons were designed was the reason why it was difficult to make balance adjustments. I've heard them say they couldn't target one specific gun and had to do blanket adjustments, but there have been targeted nerfs before to guns both legendary/exotic so the statement makes even less sense.

PVP changes only had drastic effects on PVE performance due to Bungie's poor gameplay philosophy that it has to behave the exact same way in both PVE and PVP. It's really where most of D2's problems stem from.

They had to change guns by archetype. Exotics could be done individually because they're not included in the archetype pool. I've never seen an individual Legendary get adjusted, always the archetype (which includes Rares as well).

In addition to that, the stats were attached in such a way that ADS was a multiplicative factor of hip fire instead of just a visual zoom. So when they would change the effective range of a weapon they had to change the effective range at hip fire.Those changes would be multiplied when in ADS... so there wasn't a way to accurately adjust ranges. Which is why HC's had to be messed with multiple times with range boost, range reduction, range reduction, range boost, etc.. They couldn't make the finite tweaks necessary to keep from yo-yo balance decisions.

Edit: I was looking for the image but instead found a video that has the image confirmed the Hip Fire range attatched to the ADS..
This is why they came out and specifically talked about having changed the way the weapons were made from the ground up this time around to allow for minor changes rather than big sweeping ones.

Second Edit: Found the tweet chain.

 

[Trakan]

They had to change guns by archetype. Exotics could be done individually because they're not included in the archetype pool. I've never seen an individual Legendary get adjusted, always the archetype (which includes Rares as well).

In addition to that, the stats were attached in such a way that ADS was a multiplicative factor of hip fire instead of just a visual zoom. So when they would change the effective range of a weapon they had to change the effective range at hip fire.Those changes would be multiplied when in ADS... so there wasn't a way to accurately adjust ranges. Which is why HC's had to be messed with multiple times with range boost, range reduction, range reduction, range boost, etc.. They couldn't make the finite tweaks necessary to keep from yo-yo balance decisions.

Edit: I was looking for the image but instead found a video that has the image confirmed the Hip Fire range attatched to the ADS..
This is why they came out and specifically talked about having changed the way the weapons were made from the ground up this time around to allow for minor changes rather than big sweeping ones.

Second Edit: Found the tweet chain.

I'm pretty sure they specifically adjusted the Grasp and they definitely hit the Clever Dragon specifically with their own nerfs. I know about the hip fire/ADS thing but that doesn't suggest to me that it was based on the way they designed guns. I also don't see how guns being shittier across the board in D2 somehow makes them able to make changes to them easier.

 

[Spukc]

Whew, glad I still feel burned by the first game and never got on board here

Your loss man.
I hated 1 and i love 2

 

[Jest Chillin]

I'm pretty sure they specifically adjusted the Grasp and they definitely hit the Clever Dragon specifically with their own nerfs. I know about the hip fire/ADS thing but that doesn't suggest to me that it was based on the way they designed guns. I also don't see how guns being shittier across the board in D2 somehow makes them able to make changes to them easier.

Grasp and Clever Dragon were the same archetype (the low impact archetype) and they were both nerfed at the same time. What they changed individually was mag size. What wasn't able to be changed individually was the bar stats. RoF/Impact/Range/Stability/Reload.

No matter your feelings on how "shitty" or not the guns in D2 are (they're not)... the stats can now be tweaked on a per gun basis instead of across the whole archetype. That's a good thing.

 

[Trakan]

Grasp and Clever Dragon were the same archetype (the low impact archetype) and they were both nerfed at the same time. What they changed individually was mag size. What wasn't able to be changed individually was the bar stats. RoF/Impact/Range/Stability/Reload.

No matter your feelings on how "shitty" or not the guns in D2 are (they're not)... the stats can now be tweaked on a per gun basis instead of across the whole archetype. That's a good thing.

Hopscotch Pilgrim is another example. Its impact and rate of fire were changed individually. Y1 weapons that returned in Y3 also had differing stats here and there.

You'll have to explain what you mean when you say the guns aren't worse in D2. I don't get how you could possibly think otherwise.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Hopscotch Pilgrim is another example. Its impact and rate of fire were changed individually. Y1 weapons that returned in Y3 also had differing stats here and there.

You'll have to explain what you mean when you say the guns aren't worse in D2. I don't get how you could possibly think otherwise.

I mean that they're not worse. Balance is different in D2 compared to D1 but the guns are not worse. You may not like them and that's your prerogative. However, there are many more viable guns in D2 than there were in D1. I think IB this week shows that.

 

[Trakan]

I mean that they're not worse. Balance is different in D2 compared to D1 but the guns are not worse. You may not like them and that's your prerogative. However, there are many more viable guns in D2 than there were in D1. I think IB this week shows that.

You can't just say balance is different. They're unequivocally worse. Base stats seem to be down across the board. Most weapons don't even have 50% stability and the ones that do are considered "good."

Weapons don't have as many perks in general. Scout rifles used to be able to get explosive rounds as a middle tree perk along with two other perks like say triple tap and hidden hand. Now it takes up the one main perk slot. You used to be able to max out a stability bar with something like hand-laid stock or braced frame. I haven't even seen either of those perks on any gun in the game yet something like rescue mag still exists. The perk options they do give you on guns are often redundant or there's such an obvious choice out of the two that it makes no sense picking the other one.

One of the "best" scouts in the game and "best" handcannons in the game just have explosive rounds. That's it. In D1 they would have had two more perks and better base stats. It's ridiculous. You may be fine with it, but weapons are without a doubt worse in every way in this game.

 

[Spukc]

I just played crusible for the last 45 min all i got was one blue.
Why the fuck should i play pvp in this game when i can hoard blues purples in public events.
I guess i just afk till i get my weekly award 😐

 

[Nabbis]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

PvP only talents suck about as much if not more. It's still a shitshow.

Personally, this hard on for "balance" just makes these games boring.

 

[Royce McCutcheon]

The game is very boring once you reach cap. All the gear is the same, haven't played in days after playing D1 3 hears straight.

 

[Jest Chillin]

You can't just say balance is different. They're unequivocally worse. Base stats seem to be down across the board. Most weapons don't even have 50% stability and the ones that do are considered "good."

Weapons don't have as many perks in general. Scout rifles used to be able to get explosive rounds as a middle tree perk along with two other perks like say triple tap and hidden hand. Now it takes up the one main perk slot. You used to be able to max out a stability bar with something like hand-laid stock or braced frame. I haven't even seen either of those perks on any gun in the game yet something like rescue mag still exists. The perk options they do give you on guns are often redundant or there's such an obvious choice out of the two that it makes no sense picking the other one.

One of the "best" scouts in the game and "best" handcannons in the game just have explosive rounds. That's it. In D1 they would have had two more perks and better base stats. It's ridiculous. You may be fine with it, but weapons are without a doubt worse in every way in this game.

Everything you're saying is the result of a different balance. Context of the weapons is different so you can't say these weapons are objectively worse because the entire sandbox they exist in is different. You can have the opinon that they're worse, certainly. But it's not an objective fact.

 

[T-0800]

The game is very boring once you reach cap. All the gear is the same, haven't played in days after playing D1 3 hears straight.

What is people actually want? What I hear is 'I've played all the content and now there isn't anything to do'. Well of course there isn't because you've done it all. I don't understand repeating things over and over and over just for the chance of unlocking some new shoes that you will then replace after playing it again and again and again.

 

[GoldenCrow]

I just reached the end game and have less interest in doing everything over and over as I have primarily done it all before with the original but the spacing between level 200 and 270 is a crazy grind. I really just want to do the raid but that is a hell of a lot of time to get there. The end game really needs better pacing especially because there isn't really any new content in the post game bar the raid.

Its a shame that you can't overcome the grind with skill. I thought in traditional RPG fashion if you attempt the harder stuff you will level up quicker so I jumped into the earth end game mission (recommended 260, I was 198) and managed to almost beat that but the drops were often lower than the gear I had. So skill going against enemies that can one shot you makes no difference. The game is grind only and that killed my interest in playing it any more. It also annoyed me that the main missions had arbitrary level requirements that forced me to go grind as well, especially as it is end game focused and just want to get there quick.

 

[Trakan]

Everything you're saying is the result of a different balance. Context of the weapons is different so you can't say these weapons are objectively worse because the entire sandbox they exist in is different. You can have the opinon that they're worse, certainly. But it's not an objective fact.

Right, and you can't compare Dragonfly to Firefly because they have different names.

It is an objective fact that the weapons in D2 are worse than D1. In every way. No opinions, just facts.

 

[Niceguydan8]

What is people actually want? What I hear is 'I've played all the content and now there isn't anything to do'. Well of course there isn't because you've done it all. I don't understand repeating things over and over and over just for the chance of unlocking some new shoes that you will then replace after playing it again and again and again.

Ask the millions of people that have played Diablo, WoW, FFXIV, or anything like that.

It may not be your thing, but there are a lot of people out there that like that.

 

[Warnen]

I love the game, play for a few hrs every night. It’s just relaxing doing strikes/public events. What I’m getting anyoned with are the constant dupes with exotics. I’ve gotten at least 100 exotics and still missing loads of stuff. The same 3 or 4 items keep dropping over and over.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

I remember reading the post in the OP on reddit and I agree with every bit of it.

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

I personally loved D1’s PvP. Loads of choices depending on what you wanted to do and how you wanted to play.

Trials was great but GAF IB trains were the best.

D2’s...not so much.

What is people actually want? What I hear is 'I've played all the content and now there isn't anything to do'. Well of course there isn't because you've done it all. I don't understand repeating things over and over and over just for the chance of unlocking some new shoes that you will then replace after playing it again and again and again.

What I want personally is:

- Random perks BUT! make duplicates valuable. How? By being able to pick what perks you keep when you infuse.
- I want strikes to be worth my time.
- I want PvP to be worth my time.
- I want the raid to be worth my time.
- I want drops from each encounter in the raid, not tokens, drops AND tokens would be ideal.
- I want gunsmith missions again.
- I want kiosks for my ships/shaders/emblems etc again.
- I want there to be hidden dead ghosts to find.
- I want there to be lore in the game, like grimoire that I can go and read. Not the poor excuse we have on armour/weapons.
- I want to be able to see what I’ve collected in regards to armours and guns, and what I’ve still to collect so that I can work towards it.
- I want exotics to be...exotic again. Not with perks from our old skill trees.
- I want to be able to choose what modes I want to run in PvP.
- I want to be able to choose between try hard 4v4 or casual 6v6.
- I want to have some space magic again, I want supers to be super and I want to actually be able to use my grenades rather than them be on CD 90% of the time.
- I want them to revert the loadout changes or at least sort out the overloaded power weapons slot.

I could go on and on but what’s the point when many of the above were possible in D1 yet taken away in D2.

 

[Exploratory]

Why does PVP seem to have such a gigantic affect on PVE in this game? I haven't met one person who actually plays the game for PVP. Is the PVP community that large?

WoW had this issue for years. They have finally gone in the right direction with specific, PVP-only talents. It seems like Bungie won't make the ultra sick weapons from the past due to people whining about them in PVP.

If Bungie made it to where everyone in PvP arenas had the exact same gear and weapon types, would that work? e.g CSGO, everyone has the same loadout possibilities.

Kidding? For D1 the PvP community THRIVED on Twitch. A lot of the people who kept playing were PvPers. Almost everyone I know is more interested in Trials from week to week than running the raid 1000000 times.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

Would that not almost immediately relieve any of these "balance" issues, and allow them to reintroduce exciting weapons to the PVE game?

I didn't play D1 much, but from what I've noticed in D2, I've never had one of those "WOW" moments that I'll remember down the line, like a lot of you guys had in D1. I love loot-based games, I still play WoW and raid at a high level because I'm a sucker for Best-In-Slot gear, but something is missing in D2.

I feel like people are misunderstanding the entire idea behind Destiny. It's not supposed to be this super balanced no fun thing. The whole point with D1 PvP was that it was a ton of fun and you felt like a space magic god.

 

[gatti-man]

I still find a lot of the defensive posts in this thread strange.

Wanting/expecting Bungie to launch a game with more meaningful content or deeper in game systems isn't asking for D2 to be like a "2nd job".

I want the mods and elements to actually impact my gameplay further than "this gun shoots blue pew pews so it hurts blue shields". This is a game with a massive budget and it had 1000 people working on it, why is Warframe with it's 170 developers 100x more intricate with their systems?

Nobody is asking them to go crazy with it like Warframe does. Just go 10% of the way there. Give us varied builds. Give us armor sets that mean something. Give us deeper customization options. Make our ships matter. Give us a photo mode. Give us ANY sort of depth.

Casual gamers can handle it - many won't even know or care about a lot of it, but it gives the dedicated players something to play for. It's really not THAT hard.

Bungie KNOWS they have a hardcore fanbase. They're the reason D1 did as well as it did. To act as though they're intentionally making their experience worse is a strange excuse for what's more than likely just poor decision making or lack of vision from the design team.

This x100. Bungie designers need to sit down and play warframe for 50 hours each. There are so many good ideas warframe has that would make destiny a better experience immediately. It's a shame D2 couldn't borrow a bit from warframe.

I remember reading the post in the OP on reddit and I agree with every bit of it.



I personally loved D1's PvP. Loads of choices depending on what you wanted to do and how you wanted to play.

Trials was great but GAF IB trains were the best.

D2's...not so much.



What I want personally is:

- Random perks BUT! make duplicates valuable. How? By being able to pick what perks you keep when you infuse.
- I want strikes to be worth my time.
- I want PvP to be worth my time.
- I want the raid to be worth my time.
- I want drops from each encounter in the raid, not tokens, drops AND tokens would be ideal.
- I want gunsmith missions again.
- I want kiosks for my ships/shaders/emblems etc again.
- I want there to be hidden dead ghosts to find.
- I want there to be lore in the game, like grimoire that I can go and read. Not the poor excuse we have on armour/weapons.
- I want to be able to see what I've collected in regards to armours and guns, and what I've still to collect so that I can work towards it.
- I want exotics to be...exotic again. Not with perks from our old skill trees.
- I want to be able to choose what modes I want to run in PvP.
- I want to be able to choose between try hard 4v4 or casual 6v6.
- I want to have some space magic again, I want supers to be super and I want to actually be able to use my grenades rather than them be on CD 90% of the time.
- I want them to revert the loadout changes or at least sort out the overloaded power weapons slot.

I could go on and on but what's the point when many of the above were possible in D1 yet taken away in D2.

Again this so so hard. When you spell it out like that it really makes D2 shit.

 

[III-V]

I want them to bring back the loot cave.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

So glad I didn't fall for the hype and massive marketing etc to buy Destiny 2

Got plenty of other games on the horizon I'll buy Destiny 2 in few years in a complete edition maybe

You mean didn’t fall for the cringe worthy live action advertisements?

 

[Niceguydan8]

Progression isn't flat. It just doesn't go into overdrive like a Saints Row game. MMO's do this. D1 did this. Current content is always a challenge and even when current content is on farm (everyone geared to max) the current content isn't trivial. It's easier at that point but not something you can sleepwalk through. New content release raising the progression bar and players climb again.

I haven't played WoW but FFXIV is a game I've played for a couple of years at this point and it's significantly better when it comes to feeling like the player is making progression. The player is getting better gear and new abilities that are acquired as they progress that fit into the rotations. It's a hell of a lot deeper than anything Destiny 2 (and frankly Destiny 1) can provide. So saying "MMOs do this" seems kind of disingenuous to me. I can go back to a level 10 dungeon as a level 70 character and be significantly stronger than the level 10 character playing the same dungeon due to the way item scaling down works. This isn't some small marginal difference either. Hell, I could go solo those encounters if I really wanted to. It allows the player to feel strong.

There's a lot of middle ground between a "Saints Row" example and Destiny 2. Going to the opposite extreme just isn't very useful. I don't think many people are asking for that extreme. I think when people are criticizing the lack of a power fantasy, it's the fact that progression in games that do things similar to Destiny have a much better feeling of "Wow, I'm a lot stronger at level 20 than I was at level 1" that doesn't simply mean "I'm doing damage but my time to kill is essentially the same."

 

[Epcott]

This game is boring, there’s no other way to say it.
I return to play on impulse and even that is wearing thin.

But it’s not the world and the repetitive missions that bore me, I wasn’t expecting a never ending game, and playing with friends is always fun. Nightfalls and the raid are also not bad... but the following issue makes them almost pointless in the long run. No, the boredom is in how ALL GUNS AND ARMOR OF A SPECIFIC MAKE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME (all caps because this sucks). This makes duplicates bad because there’s no specific perks or rolls for two identical guns/armor. In most cases, all you really get is a cosmetic difference, which is great for peacocking, but I personally want function over form since the function saves my bacon.

In D1, you could have two of the same armor but one (received via crucible) could have a slightly different roll or perk (one gun could deliver heavy Vex damage, the dup could have increased ammo). Or you could infuse one item and cary over a trait/perk... But nope, not here. I did realize the perk cary was missing, but not so much on the consequence of samey goods until 2 days ago while looking for leg armor for my Hunter and realizing there are only ever 2 variations of the Mobility/Resilience/Recovery ratio for every piece of head, arm, chest, and leg armor... Making it difficult to balance the three. I could find no leg armor with recovery. Luckily I had a pair of Lucky Pants with a “Sel-Repairing” mod that increased recovery (actually putting my Recovery stat to 4). I suppose if you’re lucky enough to find similar mods for other pieces, you can dramatically change that number. But the way mods are attained at Banshee, by draining glimmer on an RNG at that vendor (instead of having freedom to buy what you actually want) makes it a fun-less chore.

Hopefully this will be fixed by the second expansion. It kind bugs me Bungie acknowledges issues gamers have concerning cosmetic shaders, but mentions nothing of the real issue of gear uniformity (for the sake of PVP balance) while taking away depth and using mods as a band-aid.

And would it hurt to have the various vendors on the planets have useful goods after endgame? They’re still selling green uncommon garbage even post level 20. Why? And everyone from Zavala to Banshee are nothing more than medallion/gun-part exchanging RNG dispensers of duplicate samey clutter. This was an issue in D1, somewhat alleviated with infusion, but in here, it just feels tiresome.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I haven't played WoW but FFXIV is a game I've played for a couple of years at this point and it's significantly better when it comes to feeling like the player is making progression. The player is getting better gear and new abilities that are acquired as they progress that fit into the rotations. It's a hell of a lot deeper than anything Destiny 2 (and frankly Destiny 1) can provide. So saying "MMOs do this" seems kind of disingenuous to me. I can go back to a level 10 dungeon as a level 70 character and be significantly stronger than the level 10 character playing the same dungeon due to the way item scaling down works. This isn't some small marginal difference either. Hell, I could go solo those encounters if I really wanted to. It allows the player to feel strong.

There's a lot of middle ground between a "Saints Row" example and Destiny 2. Going to the opposite extreme just isn't very useful. I don't think many people are asking for that extreme. I think when people are criticizing the lack of a power fantasy, it's the fact that progression in games that do things similar to Destiny have a much better feeling of "Wow, I'm a lot stronger at level 20 than I was at level 1" that doesn't simply mean "I'm doing damage but my time to kill is essentially the same."

When you play a level 10 dungeon as a level 70, are you getting anything of actual value in FF14? In WoW, you don't. And what I mean by that is if you do a level 10 dungeon, you get level 10 rewards. While Destiny's loot scales just like the difficulty does. The content isn't made trivial but neither in the loot. Guild Wars 2 also works this way. As you level and go into higher areas and do higher end content, you get more things (skills, gear, etc..) but when you go back to lower areas your character is scaled down so the content isn't trivialized and the items you get are still relevant to you as a high level.

That would seem to be the functional difference. Keeping the players strength level relative to the challenge and rewarding them at the level they're at keeps those challenges relevant and increases content overall.

When you talk about games that allow a player to go back to lower areas and demolish the content as in your Level 70 in a Level 10 dungeon example... there's no directive given by the game for the player to be there doing that. The design intent is for that content to be played and then moved on from. The actual relevant content that the player is directed to is challenging. The fact is, those games are not designed to be power fantasy's as much as they are hero's journey games. The reason why I point to Saints Row is because it's supposed to be Power Fantasy. Because even when doing the content you're supposed to be doing, you become so powerful that challenge is negated. The gameplay isn't supposed to be enjoying challenge but in enjoying the massive power. Destiny is not a Power Fantasy game and that should be evident in the design. So if you're looking for power fantasy while playing Destiny, not getting that isn't a problem of design but one of misplaced expectation.

Right, and you can't compare Dragonfly to Firefly because they have different names.

It is an objective fact that the weapons in D2 are worse than D1. In every way. No opinions, just facts.

Simply stating that your opinion is an objective fact doesn't actually make it one. And you've done nothing to actually support what you're saying as everything you've stated to that effect is opinion based. There are great guns in D2. That's why you hear about Mida, Merciless, Curtain Call, Wardcliff, Midnight, Uriels, The Number, Better Devils, Antiope, etc... If these guns were not great guns, no one would talk about them at all. You can't compare them to D1 guns in a straight up comparison because the entire system for these guns is different. From the roles that they play to their power relative to each other. Destiny has Primary, Special, Heavy which place this guns in ascending strength... while D2 has Kinetic, Energy, and Power which seperate these guns by role and not strength. Stat differences and perk differences between guns in D1 and D2 are made that way to operate inside the intended design of the combat balance within these game individually.

 

[sinkfla87]

I want them to bring back the loot cave.

I remember the day shortly after launch my friend called me up and said "Hey I got an exotic, man. There's a cave on Earth where you can farm for engrams." So he takes me to the loot cave and after 5 minutes I asked him how long he had been doing this. After a long pause he said "...4 hours".

It still makes me laugh.

 

[Deku Tree]

Right, and you can't compare Dragonfly to Firefly because they have different names.

It is an objective fact that the weapons in D2 are worse than D1. In every way. No opinions, just facts.

Sweet Buisness and Coldheart are the best auto rifles in both games. Merciless is the best fusion in both games. Hawthorne’s shot gun is very good.

Snipers kinda got the shaft in D2.

 

[gatti-man]

Sweet Buisness and Coldheart are the best auto rifles in both games. Merciless is the best fusion in both games. Hawthorne's shot gun is very good.

Snipers kinda got the shaft in D2.

Over all D1 had superior weapons but sweet business, cold heart are good editions. Just overall the weapons from D1 are head and shoulders especially when you compare vanilla vs vanilla. Ghorn, fatebringer, mythoclast, icebreaker all trump any weapon in D2. They were not only cool their perks were unique and made the game more fun.

Edit:yah suros regime is another great gun with cool perks that D2 is missing.

 

[Olengie]

Wish we got the Suros back.

 

[TroicaBlur]

Traded in my disc for 30$ at GameStop. So bored with this game.

 

[Lothars]

It is an objective fact that the weapons in D2 are worse than D1. In every way. No opinions, just facts.

No that's your opinion. There were certainly amazing guns in destiny 1 but Destiny 2 has amazing weapons as well. for the most part I would say that the highs of destiny 1 weapons like fatebringer, vision, gallajorn are better but there are weapons in destiny 2 that I love to use and would put them up against the vast majority of destiny 1 weapons.

 

[Kill3r7]

No that's your opinion. There were certainly amazing guns in destiny 1 but Destiny 2 has amazing weapons as well. for the most part I would say that the highs of destiny 1 weapons like fatebringer, vision, gallajorn are better but there are weapons in destiny 2 that I love to use and would put them up against the vast majority of destiny 1 weapons.

Vanilla D1 had objectively better exotic weapons. Bungie made them OP.

 

[gatti-man]

Vanilla D1 had objectively better exotic weapons. Bungie made them OP.

Suros regime and fatebringer would line up just fine with what we have now.

 

[jviggy43]

Weapons are objectively worse in D2 than in D1. The highs were so much higher and more frequnted as well.