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[geomon]

You might want to look in your history book for how many wars were avoided using diplomacy. Hell, WWI was nearly avoided that way, until someone used violence to instigate it further.

There's a difference between diplomacy and one side screaming, "I'm gonna fucking kill you and your entire family" and the other side saying "Can't we talk about it?"

That's how you get shit like the Indian Removal Act and the Trail of Tears.

 

[Stoop Man]

There's a difference between diplomacy and one side screaming, "I'm gonna fucking kill you and your entire family" and the other side saying "Can't we talk about it?"

That's how you get shit like the Indian Removal Act and the Trail of Tears.

He addressed your point in literally the next paragraph.

 

[silveralen]

It has never worked, ever. If sitting down and listening to the other side worked, we wouldn't have wars and conflicts.

This is just silly, you can't prove civility prevented a war because we merely know a war didn't take place. Technically any moment two countries aren't at war civility might have stopped a war. You are basically demanding a success rate of 100% in order to believe this could ever benefit the world, which is absurd.

Of course listening to the other side helps. Honestly, do you think people spring or of the ground with their opinions fully formed? Everyone's opinion changes overtime, in response to the world and people around them. Which of course people must be aware of, or why else would they be worried about bigots speaking? All but the most truly entrenched can be convinced given time and the appropriate approach, and the ones beyond those methods aren't any sort of majority.

 

[tkscz]

There's a difference between diplomacy and one side screaming, "I'm gonna fucking kill you and your entire family" and the other side saying "Can't we talk about it?"

That's how you get shit like the Indian Removal Act and the Trail of Tears.

I said you can't convince an extremist. I'm not fool when it comes to that. It's unfortunate, but there are people so set in a way of hatred that they can't come out, even with all the evidence in the world. But those who aren't there can be reached. Those willing to hear can be convinced. Even some who aren't as willing can be convinced.

 

[Dude Abides]

All I know is that how people conduct themselves on video game message boards will determine the course of the next world war.

 

[silveralen]

All I know is that how people conduct themselves on video game message boards will determine the course of the next world war.

Well according to some the way people conducting themselves on twitter apparently determined the course of the last election. It's only slightly more silly than that.

 

[Kusagari]

I think young people as a whole are much less racist than they used to be 20, 30, 40 years ago.

This isn't to say that racism is "over" or "fixed" by any means. Do you think a Black president could have been elected in the 60s or 70s?

Obama inspired young people to go out and vote. Trump inspired old people to go out and vote. Things are getting better, but we still have plenty of old/closeted racists. I think it is unfair to so many young people to suggest that America is just as racist as the 60s. it's more a matter of who is in power.

A black president couldn't have been elected in the 60's because you couldn't win in the 60s with 35-38% of the white vote. Obama was only possible because of America getting browner; not because of whites have some epiphany,

Trump won a plurality of the 18-29 white vote. It's currently young white conservatives becoming increasingly radicalized through social media.

Are 18-29 whites less racist than 60-70 whites? Probably. By as much as people would like to think? Probably not.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

In other words you only want to interact with people who share your viewpoints aka echo chamber

Why should we provide a platform for hateful, bigoted assholes?

The whole meet in the middle bullshit is not an option with these people.

 

[Little Mons†er]

So you want to be understood and accepted, but are not willing to do the same for others beliefs and lifestyles? The intolerance of many who demand tolerance is deafening in its hypocrisy.

other lifestyles?

oh yeah sure, me being gay is a choice to you isn't it?

 

[OuterLimits]

Well.....they did get kicked back to their dens. Where they bred and their base grew larger.

Then while everyone was patting themselves on the back at how great and morally superior they were as they sat back and waited for another great victory to show those assholes who was boss, they came back in force because while everyone was so enthralled congratulating themselves on having the moral 'high ground' all those assholes people forgot about went out and voted Trump.

Because you know, all the polls said Hillary had it in the bag, all those people who screamed down all those racists and bigots and 'deplorables' weren't seen or heard in the echo chambers of people with their heads up their ass thinking they were so damn pious.

You can silence or attack them all you want, but Trumps win, and the fact no one on here or any number of other echo chambers saw it, was the writing on the wall.

I think only two people thought Trump had a good shot of winning. Steve Bannon who crafted the Rust Belt Strategy, and Michael Moore who had been warning and shouting for weeks that the Trump/Bannon strategy could easily work. Perhaps Nate Silver as well, who saw the possibility even though he still had Hillary at 70%. Of course both Moore and Silver got mocked.

Only racists and bigots couldn't win the election for Trump. Although they were obviously a portion of the base. Trump flipped quite a few counties in Ohio,, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, that went overwhelmingly for Obama in the previous elections. Even Minnesota got dangerously close to flipping. Looking back, I guess the Hillary campaign having big rallies in Michigan and Pennsylvania at the very end should have been a giant red fucking flag. It was too little too late though. They ignored that area for months.

 

[Temeculan3000]

Are 18-29 whites less racist than 60-70 whites? Probably. By as much as people would like to think? Probably not.

This is what it comes down to doesn't it? Some people like to claim that racism is over or that civil rights fixed everything and blacks just need to get over it. But then you have people saying that the the current state for black Americans today is almost indistinguishable from slavery. And yes, people on GAF have argued that. I don't think you can make that argument honestly, but it seems more like a response to those who say racism is over and just want to hand wave it away.

I feel like people don't want to make points in good faith, they want to use extremes to get across how serious they are. It makes for unhealthy threads on GAF IMO. We can shut down people using facts and reasonable arguments. We don't need to go to the other extreme.

 

[R0ckman]

Not sure what benefit it would be to have a dynamic discussion on something if you can't learn anything from an opposing side, or you do not share the same goals or ideals etc.

A discussion requires two people to have enough in common to at least walk in the same direction. You can't walk in two different directions and expect to have a discourse with someone and get anything of value out of it.

 

[mr teaspoon]

Well.....they did get kicked back to their dens. Where they bred and their base grew larger.

Then while everyone was patting themselves on the back at how great and morally superior they were as they sat back and waited for another great victory to show those assholes who was boss, they came back in force because while everyone was so enthralled congratulating themselves on having the moral 'high ground' all those assholes people forgot about went out and voted Trump.

Because you know, all the polls said Hillary had it in the bag, all those people who screamed down all those racists and bigots and 'deplorables' weren't seen or heard in the echo chambers of people with their heads up their ass thinking they were so damn pious.

You can silence or attack them all you want, but Trumps win, and the fact no one on here or any number of other echo chambers saw it, was the writing on the wall.

Oh god, I hate this. It's such a 'Don't throw me in the briar patch!' line of thinking. Like, guess we better accept obscene and abhorrent hatred into every day discourse and civilization, because if we don't THEY'LL GET STRONGER, OH NOOOOOOOO!

Trump won for a million different reasons, okay? He didn't win because America as a whole has 'had it up to here with trigger warnings.' Those people exist. Others voted for him as a calculated gamble that, as an outsider, he'd shake things up. Others truly hated both candidates, but hated Hillary more. It was a very, very particular and unique situation.

 

[Noboru Wataya]

Not sure what benefit it would be to have a dynamic discussion on something if you can't learn anything from an opposing side, or you do not share the same goals or ideals etc.

A discussion requires two people to have enough in common to at least walk in the same direction. You can't walk in two different directions and expect to have a discourse with someone and get anything of value out of it.

Valid, but it also shouldn't justify abhorrent dog piling and irratic childish behaviour. The suicide threads are a fantastic barometer of long time posters attitudes.

 

[nnarum]

I get why people wouldn't want to visit the site anymore. However, I think it's also silly that they are posting garbage asking to be banned. Are you really that addicted to the site that you need to be banned to not be able to visit it anymore?

It doesn't sound like you don't want to visit anymore, but just be forced to not.

 

[Anung]

I get why people wouldn't want to visit the site anymore. However, I think it's also silly that they are posting garbage asking to be banned. Are you really that addicted to the site that you need to be banned to not be able to visit it anymore?

It doesn't sound like you don't want to visit anymore, but just be forced to not.

Ermmm I really don't think you get why people wouldn't want to visit the site anymore if that is your line of reasoning.

 

[David___]

I get why people wouldn't want to visit the site anymore. However, I think it's also silly that they are posting garbage asking to be banned. Are you really that addicted to the site that you need to be banned to not be able to visit it anymore?

It doesn't sound like you don't want to visit anymore, but just be forced to not.

Nothing wrong with people wanting to protest his actions/ response instead of silently leaving. Obviously there's a line being crossed with some of them, but there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting your accounts to be banned

 

[Parapraxis]

People have always greatly mis-characterized this forum, more now than ever it would seem.

I doubt many of them were actually active members here.
I agree OP, it's sad seeing people using a rough time for their own advantage.

 

[Kimawolf]

Something i posted in another thread which probably belongs here:

I am curious to the angry people left, what do you want exactly? You and I both know EL will NOT do any kind of full out mea culpa, and it will remain a he said she said. He MAY give a little more, and make some kind of apology eventually, or give more facts/info/proof to support more of his story, we'll find out eventually.

But getting mad at moderation staff who try to "lighten the mood" won't help either, what do you want from them? They already apologized for being so slow in taking care of some things as they had to try to douse the bevy of crazy suicide threads posted (and still being posted by those uber mature people), and they said they are going to work on BEING more transparent.

So what else do you all want? to vent? to just be angry? to bring those who aren't leaving, or plan to browse all communities (90 percent of people do not just look at one, I check several different places all the time btw) down or make them feel bad?

Do you want more answers? IF you waiting on that, again you were told, dude is working on a "statement" and will release it later, if that's not good enough for you ( I don't blame anyone who it isn't enough for btw) then I understand but why just continue on with some of the nonsense?

Saying the community will turn to GG because OT is gone is nonsense as well, as you've seen once the mods begin catching up these people are being banned. Saying the community will be a ghost town because all the users are gone is also nonsense.

there are almost 200k registered users on this forum, if you think all 220k or even half of them will just vanish, you are wrong, or maybe I am, I guess we'll find out. but to say there is no content creators left is just well, a lie. As with all things, new people (or old people) will begin to fill their places. Chris no longer posting Media create? someone else has (and will going forward). Your favorite poster no longer going to post that 1000 gif long OT for Dragon Age 5? someone else will. do you seriously think because Aeana is gone no one will make a good Dragon Quest XI switch OT? Someone will. do people really think that no one else is capable of making an OT for a game or of going around to random game sites and compiling review scores? Or of posting rumors and "breaking news"? Most of GAFs news and rumors were sourced from other places, that is a bonafied fact. also 90% of the "insiders" here ended up being liars, being wrong and not believed, so if that's what missing well... See I think the thing is, some folks are just obsessed with the celebrity of some posters, they just can't fathom anyone else posting that information.

As for Off Topic, I admit it is a loss, I used to post their more than gaming, but I am willing to see where this goes and how it pans out. If the focus ends up being better for certain hobbies great, again I can give it a chance, I can do that much, and if I don't like it, I'll leave, not a big deal. but why try to purposely ruin/crap on the users and forum because you want to leave?

you're mad at EL, I get it, that's fine, you have absolutely every right to be, I'm not too thrilled with how it was handled myself tbh, but why try to ruin everyone's experience because you want to leave? Things are supposed to change, so lets see how it all shakes out? again at the end of the day, its just a videogame forum, if you really think it is crap/never gonna change, then bounce.

Is it simply because you're bored, and want to vent but are not allowed to in the various discords/new places you're at so just decide to do it here?

 

[CLEEK]

Maybe watch the video above to see what I am getting at. I am not asking anyone to accept aggressive hate speech, I am not saying it is everyones duty to face a tirade of abuse and calmly take it.I'm saying those sites you mentioned are the sort of places people end up when they get banned from places like this when they make faux passes put forward their view (even if they try their damnedest to not offend) and some people may be receptive to change if challenged. And guess what happens there? Their beliefs don't just get reinforced, they get even more extreme.

This point is so obvious, it's incredible that it goes over so many people's head.

It has never worked, ever. If sitting down and listening to the other side worked, we wouldn't have wars and conflicts.

How do you think wars are ended or averted in the first place? Diplomacy.

There's a difference between diplomacy and one side screaming, "I'm gonna fucking kill you and your entire family" and the other side saying "Can't we talk about it?"

You are coming across as incredibly naive about politics.

How do you think things like Northern Ireland's Good Friday peace accords came about? It was getting groups of people who had spent decades killing each other to de-escalate their violence and rhetoric, sit down, talk, find common ground and move forward. Led by other groups who were saying "let's talk this through". You know, diplomacy.

 

[Arc Christelle]

I actually find the coup d'etat quite impressive. A Sony level gaming political move.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

Hi, I loved NeoGAF, but I don't think I have any reason to be here anymore.
You were always the place I would automatically type in the browser if I was bored, or looking for something to do.

I love the people here, well most of them, but I think now is my time to move on.

I know I wasn't always the best poster, and that I didn't get along with everyone, but I really really enjoyed my time here for the past 6 years.

I will never forget the time I had here with everyone (especially the Wii U spec threads), met a lot of great people here and I wouldn't replace my time here with anything in the world.

Thank you for everything you've helped me through GAF, and I hope to see you on the other side.

Love you all.




I would like a perma ban please and thank you Mods.

 

[Bolivar687]

I actually find the coup d'etat quite impressive. A Sony level gaming political move.

Trumpian, even.

 

[Celine]

Something i posted in another thread which probably belongs here:

There are many forums that post japanese weekly sales threads (mostly with OP copied from somewhere else).
But there was absolutely nothing in other forums that could match SalesAge.
Do you know why?
It's not because Chris but because of the community Chris was part of.
People that strongly like to talk and inform about a specific niche argument tend to gravitate toward one place to share their experience with other knowledgeable guys.
That's what happened with NeoGAF and SalesAge in the past (and there are specific reasons that caused that community to flourish here which trace back to more than a decade ago).

Every person can be replaced but not every person has the same experience and knowledge.

 

[RedRedSuit]

Something i posted in another thread which probably belongs here:

If that is your basic question -- what do you want -- I will restate my answer again. This thread is not super-active, yet a few people seemed to agree with this.

Personally I feel that, as long as the goal is to keep a tolerant/progressive community while ALSO reducing trigger-happy no-dissent-allowed insanity (which NeoGAF is rightly being criticized for), this goal can be accomplished. But it cannot be accomplished by going back to the old ways with different mods.

It can only be accomplished by complete transparency in moderating. That means:

1. Extremely explicit rules about what is allowed and what is not. This can be established by committee of intelligent people, in the open. This can change over time to include new rules, as petitioned transparently by the community.

Extremely explicit rules means list what's allowed and what isn't, with representative examples. Even a thread like this provides plenty of examples. You can say, for example, that using the term SJW non-ironically is grounds for a minor ban, and explain why. You can say that using a studies-show-blacks-have-lower-IQ argument -- no matter how apparently civil or meek -- means permanan. AND you can say that disagreeing with gay marriage on religious grounds is NOT in ITSELF a bannable offense. And so on and so forth.

Same with console war type posts. What's allowed or not could be explicitly written down. That way people don't get banned for criticizing Switch in a Switch thread. Unless that's an actual rule.

2. Extremely transparent moderation. If someone is banned, it should be possible to know exactly what rule they broke. That way unfair moderation cannot be protected by secrecy (except where there's some privacy matter which is rare). But this also means no one can ever complain about unspecified unfair moderation -- as they do today -- as almost every ban would be clearly justified in a consistent way.

I'm not saying it's not challenging. It's basically a simple system of laws and a very simple court system. But it would work.

(And no, you can't say this is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Yes, 9/10 tweets from people with Scorpio icons claiming GAF banned them for nothing are bullshit. I bet it wasn't for nothing. BUT, absolutely it's clear there are many examples of hair-trigger bans for almost nothing as well.

The whole POINT of the above suggestion is that by bringing it all into he light will remove all the mystery from it and clearly show whose whining is justified and whose isn't.)

3. That, and IMO EviLore cannot continue to represent the place day-to-day due to the inadequate and unilateral and IMHO arrogant response to this and a couple of other crises. And that's assuming he isn't guilty of harassment. That's the other problem, the way EviLore apparently operates.

But those three problems solved, this place could thrive.

Or it could continue in its current zombie form and probably be all right if one stays away from fanboy wars and politics. But presumably people want a higher standard reached....

 

[GoldChain]

Something i posted in another thread which probably belongs here:

I get the whole, let's not be mad argument, but many people decided to take a stand against anything that would directly benefit EL. NeoGAF makes money for EL, that is a fact, and the content that drives the revenue is generated by the community for free.

Can you see now why a large number of people who were heavily respected community members decided to take their free content elsewhere? Imagine reddit was secretly owned by North Korea, would you just turn a blind eye because the mods tried to keep it cool? Its an exaggeration no doubt, but you get my point.

 

[Unbounded]

Why should we provide a platform for hateful, bigoted assholes?

GAF has been one for years.

Only thing is they're all people you agree with.

 

[RedRedSuit]

GAF has been one for years.

Only thing is they're all people you agree with.

Not accurate.

The world isn't symmetric like that.

 

[7echnicolor]

GAF has been one for years.

Only thing is they're all people you agree with.

I'd love to hear some examples.

 

[Unbounded]

I'd love to hear some examples.

Even if the section with all of the examples wasn't nuked from orbit all of your heads are too far up your ass to hear shit.

 

[7echnicolor]

Even if the section with all of the examples wasn't nuked from orbit all of your heads are too far up your ass to hear shit.

typing "i have nothing" would have been faster hth

 

[RedRedSuit]

I'd love to hear some examples.

You know what's going to be.

Either,

1. Bigots against Xbox fans!

or

2. Bigots against those who want better ethics in gaming journalism, err, I mean, women are equal to their boobs, err, I mean!

---

It's one thing to complain about an inconsistent, extreme, hair-triggered ban culture combined with a rude and immediate disdain against anything objectionable, even if a regular human discussion would be much more productive.

But to simply turn it around and claim it's just bigotry in the other direction... it's bullshit obviously.

 

[Epcott]

Nothing dramatic or drawn out.
No over the top images with “How dare you” or whatever. Meh...

Been here nearly 10 years, it was fun while it lasted.

✌️

 

[RedRedSuit]

Nothing dramatic or drawn out.
No over the top images with “How dare you” or whatever.

Been here nearly 10 years, it was fun while it lasted.

✌️

I don't get this either. If nothing dramatic or drawn out or "how dare you," then why ask for a ban at all? You don't have to post here if you're not banned.

I swear....

 

[Unbounded]

typing "i have nothing" would have been faster hth

It must be fun to completely lack any self-awareness.

 

[7echnicolor]

i have nothing

there it is! proud of you

 

[The Kree]

Man, the quality of the discourse around here really deteriorated in the last two days. I hope things get better.

 

[Goodstyle]

Nothing dramatic or drawn out.
No over the top images with “How dare you” or whatever. Meh...

Been here nearly 10 years, it was fun while it lasted.

✌️

People who ask to be banned... have you considered just not posting? It'd be the same effect.

 

[kittoo]

People are all selfish in some way


There were only a few good actual mods here and those are the guys most peope hated in the wild. The ones that don't let people have much opinion. Speevy and a few were alright but honestly bish was too much

At want point are people accepted, how to treat all well even when we disagree with who they are

I love GAF and will stay here, but indeed bish was too much. He was drunk on power and people here fuelled it by almost worshipping him. Banning people with different opinions, gloating about it and even writing things like "I am busy right now so wait till I get free this evening."

Nevertheless I was glad that he was relieved if his duties and now I hope we can rebuild our community

 

[Dunlop]

People have always greatly mis-characterized this forum, more now than ever it would seem.

I doubt many of them were actually active members here.
I agree OP, it's sad seeing people using a rough time for their own advantage.

Many of the people who left have been here for 10 years + Pretty sure it was not easy for them.

I'm in the same boat, don't need a dramatic suicide post but sometimes change is good

 

[jellies_two]

Imagine reddit was secretly owned by North Korea, would you just turn a blind eye because the mods tried to keep it cool? Its an exaggeration no doubt, but you get my point.

One question
Who owns - monetarily owns or has invested in - whatever forums some people want to promote so badly? Who are they? Does their personal shit stink too? Anyone checking the Facebook accounts of their family or friends for dirt? Or are they anonymous?

 

[Kimawolf]

Well i'd hope folks don't go digging around Laura Dale and Emily Rogers personal stuff just to find dirt. Seems not the best course of action.

 

[Dueck]

A black president couldn't have been elected in the 60's because you couldn't win in the 60s with 35-38% of the white vote. Obama was only possible because of America getting browner; not because of whites have some epiphany,

Trump won a plurality of the 18-29 white vote. It's currently young white conservatives becoming increasingly radicalized through social media.

Are 18-29 whites less racist than 60-70 whites? Probably. By as much as people would like to think? Probably not.

Yeah, but it's a case of the chicken and the egg. Those fools marching with torches from Lowe's are having their numbers bolstered because of the fringe on the opposite side demonizing straight white people on social media or with "white privilege checklists" on college campuses, etc... At least some people saw that and got offended, running off to protest the removal of General Lee statues (when he himself didn't even approve of them) or whatever... It's a metaphorical arms race with no winners as radicalization only continues to increase everywhere. Both sides are creating their own enemies by simply existing. The fact there have been deaths over fringe politics in this day in age is inexcusable.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

nm, wrong thread

 

[Louis Cyphre]

oops, dp

 

[Dueck]

Is there a reason why I'm a Junior for years now? I argued with a well known Sony fanatic years ago and got banned for about a month but since then have remained a Junior. Now what, am I going to get banned for mentioning it?

That's pretty absurd...

Though nothing came of it, I had some guy get irrationally butthurt at me here last week because I stated my disappointment regarding Sony's games being "third-person cinematic action experiences" 90% of the time, which differed from his opinion, and he simply couldn't handle this and threw some manchildish shade my way.

 

[Waikis]

People who ask to be banned... have you considered just not posting? It'd be the same effect.

Is it though?
People are asking to be banned as a sign of protest. To show that they don't agree with how things have been handled on this site. Sure, we can just stay silent, but will it be as effective? Should people not publicly protest anymore?

It's clear that EL is no longer interested in having a dialogue with the forum users anymore. Have there been any further response from him since?

The only way to visibly protest and get his attention is to ask for a ban.

It's amazing the level of apathy of the remaining users in this site. All for the sake of having a space to talk about video games.

Spoiler

Ban me please

 

[norm9]

Yeah, but it's a case of the chicken and the egg. Those fools marching with torches from Lowe's are having their numbers bolstered because of the fringe on the opposite side demonizing straight white people on social media or with "white privilege checklists" on college campuses, etc... Both sides are creating their own enemies by simply existing.

Those people were already racists to begin with, bro.

 

[Dunlop]

Is it though?
People are asking to be banned as a sign of protest. To show that they don't agree with how things have been handled on this site. Sure, we can just stay silent, but will it be as effective? Should people not publicly protest anymore?

It's clear that EL is no longer interested in having a dialogue with the forum users anymore. Have there been any further response from him since?

The only way to visibly protest and get his attention is to ask for a ban.

It's amazing the level of apathy of the remaining users in this site. All for the sake of having a space to talk about video games.

Ban me please

You my friend are not wrong

Ban me please

 

[PumpkinSpice]

No, this is not an account suicide, so don't ban me.

I have been reading and watching some youtube videos regarding the recent development regarding NeoGAF.

To be quite honest, it just feels wrong.

I am talking about people trying to take advantage of this weak moment of this forum trying to promote their own forums (whether it is existing forum, not entirely new forum just made over the weekend). Sure, I can see that it could be a good business to try to get some of the members from GAF but it does show that these people who criticize GAF is really just kicking it while it is down and more over, trying to benefit from it.

I mean, even people here do it/did it, like the mods making new forums to replace this one.

I really wish we have an OT forum to discuss non gaming stuff like this one here...but I guess we will have to wait.

and if it is an appropriate, then delete it, but don't delete me obviously

Fuck right off