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[Haly]

Oh oh oh, can I post Liefeld now?

Vicky the Viking was a german book originally wasn't it? Not sure if that had the character designs already established, but that'd make it a western thing eventually animated in Japan dealio.

Yes, unlike certain other people in this thread I'm actually doing background research as I post. Sadly, Vicky is too old and too obscure for a hefty amount of information to be available at the click of a button, so I'm just going off what's available.

(Also, I should note that in no search result for "vicky viking oda one piece" does it ever mention art/visual style. It is always about Oda's love of pirates and vikings, never about his artistic influences.)

 

[dumbyugi]

So I just finished reading The Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and holy crap was it good. I wasn't really a fan of the art at first but it grew on me a bit as I was reading. This really was one of the best manga I've read in quite a while.

I've also been reading Negima but I'm up to chapter 260 and I'm not really feeling it. I'll continue when it's done just so I know how it ends but from what I've read here and elsewhere it will most likely be a shitty ending anyway.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hey cool, now Grimace's heated guns are on me. Yeah, I agreed with that comment about Orihime, because she didn't experience any character development from that arc. .

Yeah cool, except that wasn't what he said there - He said that proper character development is a matter of fact and not opinion. I want to know if you agree with that. Something tells me you aren't willing to go that far, probably for good reason.

 

[Big One]

Question, what makes a cartoon "Western" if not its country of origin? And we're talking from a purely artistic standpoint.

It's really hard to define sometimes, I think the idea of separating it into two factions is actually pretty idiotic. But it is what it is, so I've just dealt with it over the years.

I'd say that the best way to define it is where it's released, rather than who makes it. For example Transformers and G.I. Joe were both made in Japan, and most cartoons nowadays are made in Korea like Star Wars: Clone Wars (CG) and Avatar the Last Airbender. And then there's the fact that anime like One Piece and a good portion of other anime are actually made in the Phillipines. To really define where animation is actually made, gets to a very sticky and hard to define situation.

With that being said, Vicky the Viking was part of a European trend of making cartoons/anime that were simultaneously released in both Europe and Japan. I cannot, for the life of me, cite every series that was done like this, and Google isn't really helping me on this. But in Vicky the Viking's case, it may've been made primarily in Japan, but the production of it was done by German companies (which is where the source material is from) for example and it was simultaneously distributed through each country. And if you want proof of this, it's right in the opeing credits:

 

[Stat Flow]

Good times as always. Getting proper OP discussion in right now is okay since there will be no chapter tomorrow, right?

ICv2 Top U.S. Manga Properties of 2011:

1 Naruto
2 Bleach
3 Vampire Knight
4 Sailor Moon
5 Black Butler
6 Blackbird
7 Fullmetal Alchemist
8 Rosario + Vampire
9 Soul Eater
10 One Piece
11 Blue Exorcist
12 Maximum Ride
13 Bakuman
14 Yu-Gi-Oh!
15 Negima!
16 Death Note
17 Pandora Hearts
18 Dendeki Daisy
19 Ouran High School Host Club
20 High School of the Dead
21 Spice & Wolf
22 Yotsuba!
23 Higurashi When They Cry
24 D. Gray Man
25 Otomen

Top 10 Shonen
Top 10 Shojo

lol fairy tail

One piecu

Let's be honest here, OP's art can be downright awful at times and Oda's busy panels where it seems he just throws shit on a wall don't help things either. The War arc is a pain in the fucking ass to read because you had to stare at pages for minutes at a time just to tell WTF just happened.

This is no fucking joke. Seriously, I can't hate on Oda for loving to fill in his work, but he needs to seriously chillax on making his manga panels look filled to the brim with shit for no particular reason. He doesn't need to go Kubo-Empty but when it takes me 4 minutes to look at a couple panels, we have a problem.

No seriously, it gets really tiring whenever new chapters come out, you get the same exact fucking posts all the time. Why even bother posting? Just say "GODA NOW AND FOREVER UNTIL THE END OF TIME" and be done with it.

+9000 Respect

 

[Big One]

Let me guess, this post totally makes sense to you:

*Orihime quote*

And I'm still correct

Yeah cool, except that wasn't what he said there - He said that proper character development is a matter of fact and not opinion. I want to know if you agree with that. Something tells me you aren't willing to go that far, probably for good reason.

Proper character development is the only way to do character development, ever. There's no other way to portray character development, is what I meant by "proper character development."

 

[Dresden]

S
I've also been reading Negima but I'm up to chapter 260 and I'm not really feeling it. I'll continue when it's done just so I know how it ends but from what I've read here and elsewhere it will most likely be a shitty ending anyway.

ken akamatsu is a terrible human being

 

[Angry Grimace]

And I'm still correct

I have no idea how anyone can look at this and say, this totally makes sense and is not insane.

Saying, "Orihime did not receive proper character development in Hueco Mundo." is, in no way whatsoever, an opinion.

If I get a Harvard English professor to tell you this is wrong, will you believe it?

ken akamatsu is a terrible human being

A very rich one.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It's pretty easy to label anyone who profess that there is something that they don't like in One Piece as "nitpicking insanity", isn't it? Newsflash: not all of the 'criticizers', so to speak, are doing that because we want to be a contrarian. Really, not all of us are like that.



I think you are missing the point here. I really think Angry Grimace is arguing not because he hates or even dislike One Piece... it's because something else entirely.

You should have been a here a few years ago people were complaining that all people had to say about OP were good things .
I mean WTF , is that something to complain about ?

When people have to deal with that sort of stuff what do you expect to happen .

 

[Laughing Banana]

ken akamatsu is a terrible human being

I must confess something.

I have never actually read any of his work except for some casual/cursory glances.

Is his works enjoyable to read?

You should have been a here a few years ago people were complaining that all people had to say about OP were good things .
I mean WTF , is that something to complain about ?

When people have to deal with that sort of stuff what do you expect to happen .

That was then, now is now. Personally, I am just as tired as being accused of wanting to be "cool" or "contrarian" simply because there are some things that I want to criticize about One Piece. Not necessarily in GAF, though.

The point is: generalizing = bad.

 

[Big One]

Let's just recap this one more time:

How is that in any way an opinion? Describe to me exactly how that is and maybe we can get the discussion rolling. There is nothing opinionated about that statement whatsoever.

 

[Angry Grimace]

How is that in any way an opinion? Describe to me exactly how that is and maybe we can get the discussion rolling. There is nothing opinionated about that statement whatsoever.

The "proper" amount of character development is an opinion. It requires a subjective judgment for how much and what direction it goes in.

I must confess something.

I have never actually read any of his work except for some casual/cursory glances.

Is his works enjoyable to read?



That was then, now is now. Personally, I am just as tired as being accused of wanting to be "cool" or "contrarian" simply because there are some things that I want to criticize about One Piece. Not necessarily in GAF, though.

The point is: generalizing = bad.

Negima was okay for a while, but got terrible. Love Hina is at least amusing, but still shitty overall.

 

[Haly]

What constitutes "proper character development" is an opinion. I'm pretty sure (pretty sure mind you, I'm no expert on this) that there is no universally agreed measurement of character development.

RE: Vicky
Alright fair enough. I did a little more digging and I'm turning up the same names so it checks out.

 

[dumbyugi]

ken akamatsu is a terrible human being

I enjoyed Love Hina for what it was, though it's far from my favourite harem series.

 

[Solune]

One piecu

Welcome to America, GODA.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

This is no fucking joke. Seriously, I can't hate on Oda for loving to fill in his work, but he needs to seriously chillax on making his manga panels look filled to the brim with shit for no particular reason. He doesn't need to go Kubo-Empty but when it takes me 4 minutes to look at a couple panels, we have a problem.

I never had this problem with OP or any manga in fact .
During the war people were say that but guess what it's a fucking war i love how things looks in those panels.

That was then, now is now. Personally, I am just as tired as being accused of wanting to be "cool" or "contrarian" simply because there are some things that I want to criticize about One Piece. Not necessarily in GAF, though.

The point is: generalizing = bad.

They still got some of those people here so while things change some things stay the same.
I am huge OP fan but not everyone going to like OP people are free to criticize it .
Of course i am also free to debate some of there points if i feel like it .

 

[Big One]

The "proper" amount of character development is an opinion. It requires a subjective judgment for how much and what direction it goes in.

No...that's not what it means at all. There are only two forms of character development in any fictional story:

1. Seeing characters actually change in the story
2. Seeing characters make changes in the story

There is a severe difference between a two. The first is proper character development, the second is improper character development...or insufficient, whatever you want to call it. It means that while that character may've made some changes over the course of the story, we never see any reason why those changes were made.

For example in Bleach, we never see why Orihime becomes emo, we never see why Orihime has sympathy for the Arrancars, and we never see any hint of connection between Orihime and Ulquiorra. Instead, what happened is that it just happened, and that was it. It's like stating, "Ichigo became sad." which implies proper character development, but as far as I know unless we actually see why he becomes sad, it isn't character development. This is basic storytelling 101 and is in no way opinionated whatsoever.

 

[Angry Grimace]

What constitutes "proper character development" is an opinion. I'm pretty sure (pretty sure mind you, I'm no expert on this) that there is no universally agreed measurement of character development.
.

No, he thinks there is a universally agreed measurement.

Absolutely not. I'm not surprise someone like you absolutely fails to understand what a story actually is. There is nothing opinionated about when a plot fails to resolve, or when a cliffhanger ends an entire story arc. Nothing, whatsoever, is opinionated about saying that somebody did not receive proper character development. There is proper character development, and that's a fact. Proper character development doesn't conform to a specific narrative structure, it conforms to the fact that we actually see how the character change in some form or another, rather seeing the actual character change.

No...that's not what it means at all. There are only two forms of character development in any fictional story:

1. Seeing characters actually change in the story
2. Seeing characters make changes in the story

There is a severe difference between a two. The first is proper character development, the second is improper character development...or insufficient, whatever you want to call it. It means that while that character may've made some changes over the course of the story, we never see any reason why those changes were made.

For example in Bleach, we never see why Orihime becomes emo, we never see why Orihime has sympathy for the Arrancars, and we never see any hint of connection between Orihime and Ulquiorra. Instead, what happened is that it just happened, and that was it. It's like stating, "Ichigo became sad." which implies proper character development, but as far as I know unless we actually see why he becomes sad, it isn't character development. This is basic storytelling 101 and is in no way opinionated whatsoever.

Who made this definition of "proper? You? That's an opinion. It doesn't turn an opinion into a fact because you don't like it or don't think it follows in the way you would like.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Negima was okay for a while, but got terrible. Love Hina is at least amusing, but still shitty overall.

People seem to think that he is the father of harem or romcom manga, so I am actually a bit curious.

Welcome to America, GODA.

I wonder why the disparity of popularity for One Piece in Japan and the US (and the rest of the world, apparently?) is so vast. Like, different universe vast. Probably because Ninjas and Samurais are much more universal than pirates...

Spoiler

or maybe it's because the art

Also, is Yoshiyuki Sadamato doing anything at all these days? He is one of my most favorite mangakas in terms of art, easily.

 

[Metal B]

nope

Yep, becauce as soon as this happends this person wouldn't be professionell anymore or never was one to begin with.

 

[Haly]

Okay no I see the problem here.

You guys are using two different metrics for "character development". Grimace is using the one the average layperson uses and Big One is using something from... I guess... academia?

And a debate over which of the two metrics is more valid only exacerbates the problem so I think we should all just drop it.

Yep, becauce as soon as this happends this person wouldn't be professionell anymore or never was one to begin with.

Good Art™

 

[Angry Grimace]

People seem to think that he is the father of harem or romcom manga, so I am actually a bit curious.



I wonder why the disparity of popularity for One Piece in Japan and the US (and the rest of the world, apparently?) is so vast. Like, different universe vast. Probably because Ninjas and Samurais are much more universal than pirates...

Spoiler

or maybe it's because the art

Also, is Yoshiyuki Sadamato doing anything at all these days? He is one of my most favorite mangakas in terms of art, easily.

The first harem I can remember getting really popular was Tenchi! But they've been around long before that.

Okay no I see the problem here.

You guys are using two different metrics for "character development". Grimace is using the one the average layperson uses and Big One is using something from... I guess... academia?

And a debate over which of the two metrics is more valid only exacerbates the problem so I think we should all just drop it.

What academia? He's just inventing a metric based on what he likes.

 

[Big One]

Who made this definition of "proper? You? That's an opinion.

It's proper because it fits the definition of what character development is, and is a step up from the absence of character development, which is completely improper and inadequate. Neither forms of character progress implies quality.

 

[Haly]

What academia? He's just inventing a metric based on what he likes.

Well I don't know, I've never heard it defined like this before so I assume it's from a class, which is where most obscure ideas come from.

It's like when film students start talking about so-and-so's impact on the medium and all you can do is smile and nod because you have no idea what the fuck they're smoking.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well I don't know, I've never heard it defined like this before so I assume it's from a class, which is where most obscure ideas come from.

No, what he's saying cannot make sense in any way. It's inherently contradictory to say a story needs some factual element to be good. It's just junk logic. No art school in the land would try to convince you that the existence of a story element in a certain amount is factual or not. It's just inane on every level.

 

[Metal B]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/orcho5000/liefeld_cap.jpg
Good Art™

lol no one thinks Liefeld is a professionell artist, except some stupid producers, who like cheap and fast work.

 

[Big One]

There is a severe difference, in Bleach, between...

Ichigo is sad because...his mother is dead.
Orihime is sad because..._____________

That is why the later is inadequate, we don't get character development, we get character changes.

No, what he's saying cannot make sense in any way. It's inherently contradictory to say a story needs some factual element to be good. It's just junk logic.

This is in no way contradictory. You can factually deconstruct a story, and that's what I always aim to do. When it comes to quality debates I throw away personal preferences in favor of cold hard facts.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

No...that's not what it means at all. There are only two forms of character development in any fictional story:

1. Seeing characters actually change in the story
2. Seeing characters make changes in the story

There is a severe difference between a two. The first is proper character development, the second is improper character development...or insufficient, whatever you want to call it. It means that while that character may've made some changes over the course of the story, we never see any reason why those changes were made.

For example in Bleach, we never see why Orihime becomes emo, we never see why Orihime has sympathy for the Arrancars, and we never see any hint of connection between Orihime and Ulquiorra. Instead, what happened is that it just happened, and that was it. It's like stating, "Ichigo became sad." which implies proper character development, but as far as I know unless we actually see why he becomes sad, it isn't character development. This is basic storytelling 101 and is in no way opinionated whatsoever.

Like hell we did not. Orihime brought back Loli and Menoli from death after they beat her up and tore up her clothes. Grimmjow blasted Menoli´s face with a cero, and Orihime healed her/brought her back from death. Orihime healed them because she can´t see anyone suffer. This also happened in SS arc when Mayuri blew up his followers to get them. Orihime cried for them even though they are the enemy. There is a precedent for Orihime´s compassion. With Ulquiorra, she had a confrontation with him which ended with her slapping him on the cheek. Yes we do. Orihime told him about the heart. There is your connection. Ulquiorra spend the rest of life to find the meaning of the heart in which he did right before he turned into dust.

 

[Dresden]

Also, is Yoshiyuki Sadamato doing anything at all these days? He is one of my most favorite mangakas in terms of art, easily.

Making furry movies with Hosoda, while slogging on with the Eva manga.

lol no one thinks Liefeld is a professionell artist, except some stupid producers, who like cheap and fast work.

Is this where you define professional artist with some kooky logic that you came up by yourself?

 

[Big One]

Liefield isn't a professional artist, he just did "cool drawings" back in the 90's and no one wanted him so he went onto Image where he enjoy great success. He was really popular with edgy teens cause of how "awesome" and "hardcore" his art was. Everyone professional knew Liefeld was a fucking joke they just capitalize on his success.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Now beam is here and we can really get the party started .
Do we really have to go over this again with you guys ?

 

[Angry Grimace]

There is a severe difference, in Bleach, between...

Ichigo is sad because...his mother is dead.
Orihime is sad because..._____________

That is why the later is inadequate, we don't get character development, we get character changes.

The fact you think it doesn't tell you enough doesn't make "factually" insufficient. The problem is you have to define how much you need to know for the sake of the story, which is inherently subjective.

Even a well-founded or reasoned opinion is still an opinion. The problem is once you start to define your opinions as facts it becomes impossible to have a discussion because you won't listen to any other point of view because you've established your opinion as a fact in your mine.

 

[Haly]

lol no one thinks Liefeld is a professionell artist, except some stupid producers, who like cheap and fast work.

Okay okay okay.

We have to stop this shit here.

Words and phrases don't mean whatever the fuck you want them to mean.

This is Merriam-Webster.com's definition for "professional" and I'm told it's an authority on definitions.

Definition of PROFESSIONAL
1
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

So Liefeld checks out on 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 2c.

If Webster is too snobbish for you then let's try the common man's online dictionary:

pro·fes·sion·al&#8194; &#8194;[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Again, Liefeld checks out on 1, 2, 4, 5.

This isn't a case where a phrase like "character development" can be interpreted in different ways depending on context (although not all of them are equally valid, obviously). This is a single word with generally agreed-upon standards of usage and meaning.

You're trying to use "professional" as a synonym for "good", effectively transforming your statement into:
"Good artists are good."

 

[Angry Grimace]

This is in no way contradictory. You can factually deconstruct a story, and that's what I always aim to do. When it comes to quality debates I throw away personal preferences in favor of cold hard facts.

Let's recap: You're referring to the my comment: "It's inherently contradictory to say a story needs some factual element to be good."

The reason it's inherently contradictory is because "to be good" is an opinion. The only way your argument makes sense is if whether something is good is a fact-based metric.

A fact is something that can be established as true or actually happening. A fact cannot be subjective. It might be a fact that "Orihime did not receive character development in this arc." Saying "Orihime did not receive proper character development in this arc" is an opinion, because the term "proper" is subjective.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I wonder why the disparity of popularity for One Piece in Japan and the US (and the rest of the world, apparently?) is so vast. Like, different universe vast. Probably because Ninjas and Samurais are much more universal than pirates...

Spoiler

or maybe it's because the art

Seem like have to go over this every few months OP is popular in other parts of the world like certain part of Europe and Asia .
Naruto is still ahead when comes to WW .

Still not like it should matter to GODA he mostly likely sold more OP Vols than whole of the USA manga industry last year or the year before.

Side note i know some of you guys don't be on the game side much but anyone importing the OP game ?

 

[Stat Flow]

Goda
Kubot
Kishimotool

"Big 3? Who are the other 2?" - Direct quote from GODA when asked about being a part of the big 3 in shounen jump.

*bow*

 

[wonzo]

liefeld being a shitty artist doesn't make him any less "professional".

Silver Spoon 31

all of that over a combine harvester. fucking amazing.

 

[Big One]

Let's recap: You're referring to the my comment: "It's inherently contradictory to say a story needs some factual element to be good."

The reason it's inherently contradictory is because "to be good" is an opinion. The only way your argument makes sense is if whether something is good is a fact-based metric.

At the base of it, sure. However tons of elements that make something "good" to various people can be deconstructed factually.

For example...

The art (with stories that have it) - Consistency, proportions, quality, originality
The story - Characters, pacing, plot, progression, coherency
The characters - Development, importance/place (and in movies: acting)
The writing - Grammar, source material

Everyone of these elements have nothing to do with opinionated matters and are all defining aspects of any storytelling medium and can be deconstructed factually.

 

[Solune]

People seem to think that he is the father of harem or romcom manga, so I am actually a bit curious.

It would be wise to avoid Love Hina. Negima is better , although I suppose how siginificant that is will vary of course.

I wonder why the disparity of popularity for One Piece in Japan and the US (and the rest of the world, apparently?) is so vast. Like, different universe vast. Probably because Ninjas and Samurais are much more universal than pirates...

Spoiler

or maybe it's because the art

I think the aforementioned 4kids localization was the main cause, but honestly that didn't stop things like Pokemon and Yugi-oh from breaking out. They did kill alot of things like Kirby, Shaman King, F-Zero. I think one of the problems is the pacing, which ironically starts out worse than the other 2 of the big three, but vice versa for later on in their respective series.

 

[Metal B]

Is this where you define professional artist with some kooky logic that you came up by yourself?

Is there a reason you act so cocky? Because you pretty much destroy your reputation and that is what people call unprofessional. If people take you seriously as a person and in your craft, then your an professional. Being professional has nothing to do, how much money you make or what work you do. Its all about your actions, rules, understanding, skills and how other people interpret those. Liefeld never learns from his mistakes or seen to have an understanding, why people dont like his art or misinterpret his messages. Like the picture of Captain America: He wants to show, that the guy is strong. But because of the mistakes in his art, we get the information that he is a freak of nature. The problem is not the art (everybody has a bad day), it is not realizing the mistake.

You're trying to use "professional" as a synonym for "good", effectively transforming your statement into:
"Good artists are good."

Hmmm okay i give you that. I properly mixing the hope what professional means in contra what professional acually means.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I think the aforementioned 4kids localization was the main cause, but honestly that didn't stop things like Pokemon and Yugi-oh from breaking out. They did kill alot of things like Kirby, Shaman King, F-Zero. I think one of the problems is the pacing, which ironically starts out worse than the other 2 of the big three, but vice versa for later on in their respective series.

I remember reading a while back can't seem to find the article .
That the head of 4kids at the time said they regret getting OP , they thought it was cartoon for younger kids like in Japan.
Then they saw it and had to make allot of cuts , he also said that made the fan base angry which was telling people to watch fan subs instead .
They also got into problem with Toei also which made things hard .

 

[Angry Grimace]

At the base of it, sure. However tons of elements that make something "good" to various people can be deconstructed factually.

For example...

The art (with stories that have it) - Consistency, proportions, quality, originality
The story - Characters, pacing, plot, progression, coherency
The characters - Development, importance/place (and in movies: acting)
The writing - Grammar, source material

Everyone of these elements have nothing to do with opinionated matters and are all defining aspects of any storytelling medium and can be deconstructed factually.

This is scatterbrained at best. What ABOUT the characters, story and writing?

Some things about the characters are facts - i.e. the main character in Bleach is named Ichigo. Whether he is a good character is an opinion. Whether the art is quality art is not a fact, it's an opinion. Whether the acting is good is an opinion - even if most people agree Hayden Christiansen was a bad actor in Star Wars, it's still subjective.

You're not making any sense because you don't understand the meaning of what you're saying. Whether something is "good" is a subjective value and cannot be broken down factually. The way you are using the term is to claim something is a "fact" because it's a "fact" that you think it's good or bad - this is junk English.

Things are not factually "good" or "bad." It's nonsensical to argue as such.

 

[flawfuls]

At the base of it, sure. However tons of elements that make something "good" to various people can be deconstructed factually.

For example...

The art (with stories that have it) - Consistency, proportions, quality, originality
The story - Characters, pacing, plot, progression, coherency
The characters - Development, importance/place (and in movies: acting)
The writing - Grammar, source material

Everyone of these elements have nothing to do with opinionated matters and are all defining aspects of any storytelling medium and can be deconstructed factually.

Consistency in art isn't necessarily a good thing. Daisuke Igarashi is my favourite manga artist and one of the best parts of his manga is how much variety there is in his artwork.

 

[Wiseblade]

Goda
Kubot
Kishimotool

"Big 3? Who are the other 2?" - Direct quote from GODA when asked about being a part of the big 3 in shounen jump.

*bow*

"Bleach? Is that a PC game?"

 

[MCD]

Goda
Kubot
Kishimotool

"Big 3? Who are the other 2?" - Direct quote from GODA when asked about being a part of the big 3 in shounen jump.

*bow*

Sounds like Oda is just ignorant.

 

[Metal B]

At the base of it, sure. However tons of elements that make something "good" to various people can be deconstructed factually.

For example...

The art (with stories that have it) - Consistency, proportions, quality, originality
The story - Characters, pacing, plot, progression, coherency
The characters - Development, importance/place (and in movies: acting)
The writing - Grammar, source material

Everyone of these elements have nothing to do with opinionated matters and are all defining aspects of any storytelling medium and can be deconstructed factually.

Actually no, nothing of this is important. At the end all that matters is, if the artist can bring his information and massages along. All your points just make it easier for a lot of humans, but you can transport information even without them (stuff just gets sometimes really artsy (harder to interpret))

 

[Laughing Banana]

Making furry movies with Hosoda, while slogging on with the Eva manga.

What? Furry..........................???????

Seem like have to go over this every few months OP is popular in other parts of the world like certain part of Europe and Asia .
Naruto is still ahead when comes to WW .

You seem pretty... I don't know, annoyed? Like "NOT THIS AGAIN!" If you feel like you are annoyed by my question you don't have to answer it, you know.

And I don't see anything wrong with my original statement: in Japan, One Piece consistently curbstomping all oppositions while in the US it is number 10 based on the list mentioned above--and I never said it's not popular, but that is a vast difference no matter how you see it.

 

[Wiseblade]

Oda's art is perfectly servicable IMO. Busy as hell, but still enjoyable.

 

[Big One]

This is scatterbrained at best. What ABOUT the characters, story and writing?

Some things about the characters are facts - i.e. the main character in Bleach is named Ichigo. Whether he is a good character is an opinion. Whether the art is quality art is not a fact, it's an opinion. Whether the acting is good is an opinion - even if most people agree Hayden Christiansen was a bad actor in Star Wars, it's still subjective.

I don't think I've ever implied otherwise. However unless your opinion has solid reasoning and facts behind it, mine is still going to be better than your's. An opinion always has ground in reality in some form or another, and if your opinion "just is" it's a weak opinion and isn't really worth discussing. Now it's not to say that the world doesn't have a place for weak opinions. It's completely acceptable to have a weak opinion for anything. The problem is when you go onto a message board and start debating about it, then I'm going to point out things I think are genuine flaws.

Also the acting thing isn't really opinionated. Acting can be weighed primarily by factual things too such as how natural the actor was. A good actor is determine by this scale:

Low end: Not convinced his audience he's a real character
High end: Convinced his audience he's a real character

If you're leaning more towards the high end, you're acting right. Acting is all about showcasing and it's the audience's reaction to it that defines whether it's good or not. Whether a certain audience has legitimate grounds to say this or not is debatable.

Things are not factually "good" or "bad." It's nonsensical to argue as such.

I'm aware of this but I genuinely think anyone can justify their like and dislike for something, which is what I've always aimed to do. I cannot stand anyone saying, "I like it because I like it." cause that's nothing and just not very productive especially on a forum. Forums aren't supposed to be about socializing they're supposed to be about legitimate discussion.

 

[Stat Flow]

we never see why Orihime becomes emo

What do you mean, here, exactly? We know exactly why she becomes emo. She understands that she is responsible for Ichigo coming to save her and putting himself in danger. She cares about his safety the most. She feels responsible because despite her training, she was powerless against Ulquiorra when he came to take her away. She knew this because of Yammy and Ulquiorra's prior visit when Ulquiorra didn't need to lift a finger to suppress Ichigo, Chad, and herself.

She is generally depressed because of her child hood, which was given detail earlier on in the series. She puts on the front as if she isn't, though, because her personality is one that is bubbly/aloof.