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[Dead Man]

how would my mind move to female body? My body dictates my mind and my attitude.

My sex defines everything. I think, live and dream the way i do because i a man. If i was born a woman i would have a different set of mentality, emotions and outlook.

I think as Orayn suggested, Wikipedia is a fine place to start.

I would offer you a couple questions to think about though.

If a brain transplant were performed, from a male body to a female body, what would be the gender of that person?

What part of you body is it that makes you a man? If you were castrated would you stop being a man? I would suggest that it is your mind that makes you a man.

Do you think it is possible for there to be cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth? What gender should those individuals be assigned, and what would be the source for that?

 

[wonderkins]

Zaraki, you can either keep editing your post to refigure your bs or respond. There is no better evidence supporting what I said about your desultory mind than your continued posting.

So please, continue to do so.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Brain transplant is a misnomer. It should be "body transplant" if you think about it

 

[Orayn]

I think as Orayn suggested, Wikipedia is a fine place to start.

I would offer you a couple questions to think about though.

If a brain transplant were performed, from a male body to a female body, what would be the gender of that person?

What part of you body is it that makes you a man? If you were castrated would you stop being a man? I would suggest that it is your mind that makes you a man.

Do you think it is possible for there to be cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth? What gender should those individuals be assigned, and what would be the source for that?

You could even go into how the biological components of sex aren't a binary switch since so many of them are affected by hormone levels in vitro and a bevy of other contributing factors.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Zaraki, you can either keep editing your post to refigure your bs or respond. There is no better evidence supporting what I said about your desultory mind than your continued posting.

So please, continue to do so.

What are you babbling about?

 

[wonderkins]

What are you babbling about?

lol. Too chicken shit to apologize to Lexi. To proud to walk away.

Ta-ta diddums.

 

[Dead Man]

Brain transplant is a misnomer. It should be "body transplant" if you think about it

Yes yes, smart arse! I was just trying to get a simpler conceptualisation for a mind transfer! Cheeky bugger.

You could even go into how the biological components of sex aren't a binary switch since so many of them are affected by hormone levels in vitro and a bevy of other contributing factors.

Yeah, but I am not so familiar with the actual biological details, more the psychological ones.

 

[Vaporizer]

I think as Orayn suggested, Wikipedia is a fine place to start.

I would offer you a couple questions to think about though.

If a brain transplant were performed, from a male body to a female body, what would be the gender of that person?

What part of you body is it that makes you a man? If you were castrated would you stop being a man? I would suggest that it is your mind that makes you a man.

Do you think it is possible for there to be cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth? What gender should those individuals be assigned, and what would be the source for that?

Your biological sex defines you as a person. The mind is secondary.

Everything from your hormones, your body, the chemicals in your bloodstream, the feelings in you as a person are all matched together by your biological sex.

This is what governs the mind. It's what makes men and women different each other. It's why both sexes have different reactions to similar situations. If someone took out my balls tomorrow i still will consider myself a man. Not a woman. It's how i was born. It's what defines me as a person. It's this nature than shapes one's mind and personality. And hence come into terms with being a male or female as early as 2 years old in some cases

 

[Orayn]

Yeah, but I am not so familiar with the actual biological details, more the psychological ones.

I'm not an expert either, but it means we can shatter Vaporizer's simplistic worldview in multiple ways.

Your biological sex defines you as a person. The mind is secondary.

Bullshit! Your brain comprises every relevant part of who you are. The rest of your post only confirms that.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Is it me, or is what Vaporizer saying the exact opposite of how things actually are?

By all means correct me if I'm wrong. My excuse is that it's very late here.

 

[Vaporizer]

@orayn
The brain is not the focal matter. It's the biological sex. this is the differentiator. This shapes the emotional aspect of the brain. This moulds it. The brain upon this acts accordingly.

This is why men and women may think logically the same way but emotionally in a different way. Think of it this way. Biological sex as the driver and the brain the car itself

 

[Orayn]

@orayn
The brain is not the focal matter. It's the biological sex. this is the differentiator. This shapes the emotional aspect of the brain. This moulds it. The brain upon this acts accordingly.

This is why men and women may think logically the same way but emotionally in a different way. Think of it this way. Biological sex as the driver and the brain the car itself

Your view of this subject matter is simplistic and, quite frankly, wrong. You should read more and assume less.

I know that page is more complicated than, "A man has a man's brain and a woman has a woman's brain," but you can read and maybe even understand some of it. I believe in you!

 

[videogames]

@orayn
The brain is not the focal matter. It's the biological sex. this is the differentiator. This shapes the emotional aspect of the brain. This moulds it. The brain upon this acts accordingly.

This is why men and women may think logically the same way but emotionally in a different way. Think of it this way. Biological sex as the driver and the brain the car itself

my penis thinks you're a toolbag

 

[Jenga]

What's next? People being born gay and not choosing it?

that's against the bible!

 

[Garbaga]

my penis thinks you're a toolbag

No doubt Vaporizer is completely wrong, but you seem to really love insulting people; you've done it a ton in this thread and I honestly think you should cut-down on it before a mod takes notice.

 

[BocoDragon]

I'll agree in a broad sense with what Vaporizer is saying (on this page, anyway... haven't read through his whole argument in relation to the thread topic)... I'm not sure if his specific details are correct, but he is broadly correct: there are generally agreed to be trends in male and female brain types, which correspond to differing behaviors. Most everything you ever read in psychology or neuroscience over the last few decades will plainly say so. I am no expert but I've taken a few courses here and there.

Obviously there are many exceptions to these brain trends (hence transgenderism? homosexuality?), but in the main, many "gender" traits are indeed promoted by biological sex.

I don't mean barbies and GI Joes of course. An example would be autism. It greatly affects males more than females. It has been suggested that autism is like a form of extreme "maleness"... an overemphasis on "systematizing" the world, and a lack of social intuitiveness.

Obviously social factors do play a role too. And the differing hormones, as stated earlier, complicate things a bit..... but I only mean to make this point: if you want to say that gender is completely malleable, based only upon "nurture" factors, well.... that is an argument with roots in the humanities (usually from highly arguable feminist sociological theories), not modern sciences.

edit: I suppose the main difference between myself and vape (perhaps?) is that I want to emphasize there are exceptions, and that's fine, and that's probably where transexualism comes into play... These are male/female trends in brain types... not rules for how we "should" be.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

In the way it's being described, people are willing to exclude trans individuals even when attracted to them and can't provide a reason other than that they are trans. That is a trans-phobic reaction.

That may be. I mean, when it comes to strictly dating I personally dismiss people(and groups of them) for various reasons - rarely are they fair. Sometimes it is an impression of their character or direct observation of it. Sometimes it is physical. Sometimes I'm just not feeling it and I don't know why.

I understand the concept of possibly being physically attracted to a woman initially. But when or if I find out the biological fact is different from what I was under the impression of - I'd possibly be put off.

And again, getting to the original point of the thread - if it was withheld from me and the relationship got serious, etc. I'd be upset just from the withholding of such an important piece of information. Goes back to trust. A fling? I don't usually put myself in that position - but if I did and I didn't notice - then I guess I didn't notice.

I don't, and I don't know why, put it in the same category as a biological woman being infertile for some reason for another medical issue. In the family planning stage - I'd expect it to come up if she knew. I'd be upset if she didn't let me know she was infertile knowing we were going to try to start planning a family too. And if she didn't know, she didn't know - nothing you can do about that.

I guess for me the baseline for a relationship - even if one part would come much, much later would have to satisfy two things. Being a woman in the sense of outward appearance and being a woman biologically. Being a woman mentally/physically but technically being another sex biologically is something I highly doubt I could cope with and accept in a relationship/life partner setting. If that makes me some horrible bigot(I personally don't think it does) - then I guess some people will have to think that if that is how they feel.

 

[Vaporizer]

I'll agree in a broad sense with what Vaporizer is saying (on this page, anyway... haven't read through his whole argument in relation to the thread topic)... I'm not sure if his specific details are correct, but he is broadly correct: there are generally agreed to be trends in male and female brain types, which correspond to differing behaviors. Most everything you ever read in psychology or neuroscience over the last few decades will plainly say so. I am no expert but I've taken a few courses here and there.

Obviously there are many exceptions to these brain trends (hence transgenderism? homosexuality?), but in the main, many "gender" traits are indeed promoted by biological sex.

I don't mean barbies and GI Joes of course. An example would be autism. It greatly affects males more than females. It has been suggested that autism is like a form of extreme "maleness"... an overemphasis on "systematizing" the world, and a lack of social intuitiveness.

Obviously social factors do play a role too. And the differing hormones, as stated earlier, complicate things a bit..... but I only mean to make this point: if you want to say that gender is completely malleable, based only upon "nurture" factors, well.... that is an argument with roots in the humanities (usually from highly arguable feminist sociological theories), not modern sciences.

thanks. nice to see someone agreeing with me.

Even mild fluctuations in hormone levels such testosterone or oestrgen can produce behavioural effects. Which proves that it's not the mind but the biological sex/body that determines everything

 

[Orayn]

thanks. nice to see someone agreeing with me.

Now you can be wrong together!

Even mild fluctuations in hormone levels such testosterone or oestrgen can produce behavioural effects. Which proves that it's not the mind but the biological sex/body that determines everything

Again, you're simplifying to the point of not getting it at all. Not all people have identical hormone levels or sensitivity to hormones. Could such variations affect a person's mind in such a way that it no longer matches up with their physical body? You bet.

 

[Emitan]

that's against the bible!

I mean, obviously people choose these things. I don't know why you would choose to be gay/bi/trans/<other things super conservative people hate> when people have done such a good job of creating climates of anger and fear about those things, but what other explanation could there be?

The_Technomancer and I have the best avatars on GAF. I proved it with expensive laboratory equipment.

Normally I would agree with you, but I have a mustache now. That might change things.

 

[videogames]

No doubt Vaporizer is completely wrong, but you seem to really love insulting people; you've done it a ton in this thread and I honestly think you should cut-down on it before a mod takes notice.

insults are only half the strawman, man!

 

[Garbaga]

insults are only half the strawman, man!

Que?

 

[Dead Man]

Your biological sex defines you as a person. The mind is secondary.

Everything from your hormones, your body, the chemicals in your bloodstream, the feelings in you as a person are all matched together by your biological sex.

This is what governs the mind. It's what makes men and women different each other. It's why both sexes have different reactions to similar situations. If someone took out my balls tomorrow i still will consider myself a man. Not a woman. It's how i was born. It's what defines me as a person. It's this nature than shapes one's mind and personality. And hence come into terms with being a male or female as early as 2 years old in some cases

I'm going to ignore everything you posted after this, and just stay on what you have written here.

I have just one question. What happens when those hormones, chemicals etc are not matched to your biological sex?

 

[Orayn]

Normally I would agree with you, but I have a mustache now. That might change things.

We will take you on you and Gravijah, for we are MIGHTY AND POWERFUL GODS!

I'm going to ignore everything you posted after this, and just stay on what you have written here.

I have just one question. What happens when those hormones, chemicals etc are not matched to your biological sex?

Really looking forward to his response to this one.

 

[Vaporizer]

I'm going to ignore everything you posted after this, and just stay on what you have written here.

I have just one question. What happens when those hormones, chemicals etc are not matched to your biological sex?

how is that possible if i may ask? could you give me an example?

 

[Orayn]

how is that possible if i may ask? could you give me an example?

How about you read the last link I posted?

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. Hare et al found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repeat lengths on the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.

tl;dr a person's genetics influence their sensitivity to hormones. That is not a trivial thing.

 

[Emitan]

We will take you on you and Gravijah, for we are MIGHTY AND POWERFUL GODS!

Spoiler

I've never finished the movie your avatars are from. I'm sorry because I really liked the first half

 

[Dead Man]

how is that possible if i may ask? could you give me an example?

Again I would direct you to wikipedia, but if you don't have the time, consider the case of ambiguous genitalia I presented in my list of questions. What gender would they be, and how would you determine this?

 

[squidyj]

This gif looks a little different when you're scrolling down and you can only see the top of his head moving.

 

[videogames]

what about people born with tails. are they really cats.

 

[Dead Man]

This gif looks a little different when you're scrolling down and you can only see the top of his head moving.

I feel funny in my pants now.

 

[Az]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35567544&postcount=42

come on guys, lets do this...

 

[Vaporizer]

How about you read the last link I posted?



tl;dr a person's genetics influence their sensitivity to hormones. That is not a trivial thing.

I see what you mean. Ofcourse they are instances where you get sexual hormones being under produced or not being absorped sufficiently for various reasons. In such cases i see it the same way diabetics suffer when it comes to insulin.

In this instance i believe the best way for treatment is to increase their hormone levels to acceptable levels.

There is so much problems when it comes hormone production or under production in the body. Even a single mutation can cause vital things like haemoglobin to be misproduced causing thalassaemia

 

[videogames]

I see what you mean. Ofcourse they are instances where you get sexual hormones being under produced or not being absorped sufficiently for various reasons. In such cases i see it the same way diabetics suffer when it comes to insulin.

In this instance i believe the best way for treatment is to increase their hormone levels to acceptable levels

what about tails.

 

[BocoDragon]

How about you read the last link I posted?



tl;dr a person's genetics influence their sensitivity to hormones. That is not a trivial thing.

But males and females typically receive differing hormones based upon their biology. Does the hormone variable really get you out of the loop of saying "sex usually determines gender"?

I thought it was already obvious that something different happens during the fetal development of a transgendered physical male vs. the average male. If that difference was a unusual balance of hormones, well, so be it? It still means that the average male genetics -> produce the average male hormones -> produce the average male gender identity.

 

[Emitan]

what about tails.

I don't think Tails is trans.

 

[lexi]

I'm curious to know how Vaporizer sees me, would you mind giving a summation vaporizer? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Vaporizer]

But males and females typically receive differing hormones based upon their biology. Does the hormone variable really get you out of the loop of saying "sex usually determines gender"?

I thought it was already obvious that something different happens during the fetal development of a transgendered physical male vs. the average male. If that difference was a unusual balance of hormones, well, so be it? It still means that the average male genetics -> produce the average male hormones -> produce the average male gender identity.

precisely

 

[Vaporizer]

I'm curious to know how Vaporizer sees me, would you mind giving a summation vaporizer? I'm genuinely interested.

I am sorry. I dont understand. Are you a transgender person?

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I am sorry. I dont understand. Are you a transgender person?

Yes, she is.

 

[Orayn]

I see what you mean. Ofcourse they are instances where you get sexual hormones being under produced or not being absorped sufficiently for various reasons. In such cases i see it the same way diabetics suffer when it comes to insulin.

In this instance i believe the best way for treatment is to increase their hormone levels to acceptable levels.

There is so much problems when it comes hormone production or under production in the body. Even a single mutation can cause vital things like haemoglobin to be misproduced causing thalassaemia

See, but we're not talking about purely biological elements either. What you're proposing is using hormones to forcibly change a person's mind to fit the way someone else thinks their body and mind should match up. Did you know that they used to do the same thing to try and make gay people straight? It was fucked up.

 

[lexi]

Yes.

I'm just wondering cause your whole theory of biological sex on the last page needs a bit more clarification for me to understand.

 

[Raynes]

To "potential mates" of course! It's about being honest, and people should feel obliged to be honest to potential mates.

 

[Platy]

Offtopic : I'm the only one "OMFG" by the user named "videogames" is still a junior member in a forum with SO MANY videogame fans ?

edit: this is the last post on a page for most people .... i will totaly get ignored ... such a cool gingerbread graphic =/ [/edit]

As a side note to other people who may know more about this subject than I do: how is post-operative care for women who become men? Are penises constructed, and if so, how functional are they? What about testes?

There are basicaly 2 options :
1)Changing the oversized clitoris to a functional penis.
Most perfect option, but 90% of the time produces a small penis.... and we are talking about MEN choosing =P

2) Contructing a penis of the desireable size of the patient, but ....is inflatable by an external connection. Bonus point is that you can hold an erection for as long as you want and it will not show up when undesired.

People in this thread focusing too much on her life prior to becoming a woman. Most of them were more girly than I was growing up and yet people don't care that I was a total tomboy why?

I would love to know what would happen if SOMEHOW you became Hello Kitty's biggest fan and then dates someone ... and SUDDENLY he sees a pic of you at your puberty.... where you were probably using short hair and pants.
"OMFG YOU ARE TRANS AND LIED TO ME !!!" ?

except that is literally impossible.

If i am going to spend my time with someone and settle down, i intend to have kids. So i rather know it before hand

....it is an hipotetical question so that people focus ONLY on the "ycromossomophobia"

I fully accept that transgendered women are women. I still have to say that to me they're not women in the same sense that other women are women. Their womanhood necessarily involves various amounts of rebellion against their born "biological" gender, repression of "male" habits that they necessarily picked up in their former life, complex relationship with their outside persona, and I don't see how their feminity can be anything else than a combination of spontanous feminine instincts (that were probably met with different reactions during their former life as a "physical" male, and evolved accordingly) and some amount of deliberate imitation of what a woman is supposed to be. Basically it seems to me that their feminity is a "struggle". The complexity of the whole thing would be a huge turn off for me personnally, and dating a transgendered woman would force me to question my whole sexuality in so many ways that I get tired just thinking about it.

At the same time, the first part of the quoted would make me want you to read some books about gender theory, queer theory, psicology and antropoly.... but the bolded part would make me think that you would NEVER be able to date ANYONE ever again when you understand that EVERYONE is WAY more complex than you are thinking about only transwomen

Some people just aren't attracted to transwomen.

Wich means that there are PHYSICAL diferences on this.
Attraction is PHYSICAL.
Can you please enlighten me on what makes a transwomen diferent from other women ?
Keep in mind the case of people that allowed to start Hormone therapy in their tweens, ignoring EVERY kind of possible affect that testosterone might have on their bodies and the already said "not even a gynecologist would notice" surgical procedure.

Um, wouldn't their partners figure it out once they get a look at the genitals?

As already said in this thread (but i don't blame a people for not looking at such a large and rage inducing thread) and on this very post, it changes from surgeon to surgeon, but there are a good amount of surgeons able to do one that would fool a gynecologist.

Can you explain further?

Quoting because the image is a little bigger than it should. Remember to hold mouse1 to make it bigger

 

[Vaporizer]

Yes.

I'm just wondering cause your whole theory of biological sex on the last page needs a bit more clarification for me to understand.

Oh i see. Well this is something i have studied in psychology. Biological sex of the person is what shapes the person's thinking. Their attitude, emotions, how they feel, how they react etc.

People make the mistake by giving too much credence to the brain or the mind. The mind is certainly the driving force in the human body. It's the counscious part of our selfs. But it's also a living matter that is malleable by events, interactions, attitudes, experiences etc.

The mind in itself is shaped by the person's biological sex which in turn orientates the person's gender. It's at the core of the person. And there in lies the issue. You may truly believe that by your gender reassignment you are now a gender of your own choosing.

I personally believe everyone's gender has already been decided upon conception. I mean no disrespect to you lexi. I have nothing against you. But that's simply my opinion on the matter. Until someone convinces me otherwise

 

[Platy]

Oh i see. Well this is something i have studied in psychology. Biological sex of the person is what shapes the person's thinking. Their attitude, emotions, how they feel, how they react etc.

People make the mistake by giving too much credence to the brain or the mind. The mind is certainly the driving force in the human body. It's the counscious part of our selfs. But it's also a living matter that is malleable by events, interactions, attitudes, experiences etc.

The mind in itself is shaped by the person's biological sex which in turn orientates the person's gender. It's at the core of the person. And there in lies the issue. You may truly believe that by your gender reassignment you are now a gender of your own choosing.

I personally believe everyone's gender has already been decided upon conception. I mean no disrespect to you lexi. I have nothing against you. But that's simply my opinion on the matter. Until someone convinces me otherwise

Lexi posted a very interesting video that talks about 2 or 3 studies that disproves this

 

[BocoDragon]

Oh i see. Well this is something i have studied in psychology. Biological sex of the person is what shapes the person's thinking. Their attitude, emotions, how they feel, how they react etc.

People make the mistake by giving too much credence to the brain or the mind. The mind is certainly the driving force in the human body. It's the counscious part of our selfs. But it's also a living matter that is malleable by events, interactions, attitudes, experiences etc.

The mind in itself is shaped by the person's biological sex which in turn orientates the person's gender. It's at the core of the person. And there in lies the issue. You may truly believe that by your gender reassignment you are now a gender of your own choosing.

I personally believe everyone's gender has already been decided upon conception. I mean no disrespect to you lexi. I have nothing against you. But that's simply my opinion on the matter. Until someone convinces me otherwise

^ now this is where I disagree with you. I think that gender is usually/often determined by biological sex, but variations happen. Sometimes a male can develop with typically female tendencies or vice versa. It just seems like something that could easily happen given that we are all cut from the same sex template (we all start out in the womb as female, actually). And I accept the right of these people to live and be referred to in a way that feels right for them.

 

[Garbaga]

Wich means that there are PHYSICAL diferences on this.
Attraction is PHYSICAL.
Can you please enlighten me on what makes a transwomen diferent from other women ?
Keep in mind the case of people that allowed to start Hormone therapy in their tweens, ignoring EVERY kind of possible affect that testosterone might have on their bodies and the already said "not even a gynecologist would notice" surgical procedure.

Attraction is primarily physical, but it can be quelled by the not-so physical; such as finding out the person you're attracted to was previously a male complete with a penis, bare chest and other primarily male features.

It's a complete and utter turn off to me, quite frankly.

 

[Orayn]

Oh i see. Well this is something i have studied in psychology. Biological sex of the person is what shapes the person's thinking. Their attitude, emotions, how they feel, how they react etc.

People make the mistake by giving too much credence to the brain or the mind. The mind is certainly the driving force in the human body. It's the counscious part of our selfs. But it's also a living matter that is malleable by events, interactions, attitudes, experiences etc.

You are the stuff between your ears. There's no ghost in the machine, only your brain and the other biological factors that affect it. Where we run into trouble is your insistence that everyone with XX and XY chromosomes "ought to" develop a normal female or male brain, respectively. This is demonstrably wrong, and you are thick as a brick for refusing to accept the possibility that your understanding of the issue is incomplete and inaccurate.

The mind in itself is shaped by the person's biological sex which in turn orientates the person's gender. It's at the core of the person. And there in lies the issue. You may truly believe that by your gender reassignment you are now a gender of your own choosing.

...And you're still fumbling the terminology that several in this thread have gone out of their way to explain to you. Righteous reading comprehension, broseph!

I personally believe everyone's gender has already been decided upon conception. I mean no disrespect to you lexi. I have nothing against you. But that's simply my opinion on the matter. Until someone convinces me otherwise

So having both personal accounts from people whose genders aren't the same as their biological sex and an explanation of the underlying science isn't good enough for you? Go fly a kite.

 

[Onemic]

doesn't he just believe that you gender identity isn't a choice? Or am I reading it wrong?