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[IdeaMan]

I'm not too worried about the RAM, the CPU and the GPU tbh, there's obviously a lot more going on under the hood that even the most vigourous teardown isn't going to reveal. Nintendo have always released balanced systems.

Someone at Shin'en recently praised the Wii U for having bugger all latency and Ancel has previously stated that the U has almost unlimited RAM, the latter of which combined with the huge amount of on-board flash reserved for that first system update leads me to believe I'm close to being correct about developers having swapspace available to play with for memory access.

I agree. It's just disappointing for launch day ports after the promises made since one year (on the easy port, etc). And i don't know why we should be concerned for the RAM speed whereas we never heard once complains about it, on the contrary.

 

[Averon]

I'm not trying to draw any conclusions, but it's still an amusing note. While the WiiU was rumored to be architecturally similar the the 360 much of the early conversation sounds eerily reminiscent of the rhetoric surrounding PS3. 'It's still early. Developers need to stop being lazy. Games need to be built from the ground-up.' I'm wondering how long it will be until we finally reach WiiU/360/PS3 games need to be built with WiiU as lead platform.

We're already seeing accusations of "lazy developers" being thrown. That was a popular term during the PS3's early days, too.

 

[IdeaMan]

How did you manage to find anger and bitterness out of that post? There was none of either. "BS" is a casual term, not furious rage.

It's certainly bitter to accuse someone of telling bs in a number of posts i stopped to count since months. BS = bullshit = lies , fabricated statements, not based on something. It's blatantly disrespectful for me to still believe (most have stopped after the pre-E3 2012 nintendo direct) that i would decide to lost i don't how many hours and efforts to write lies on a gaming board.

At worst, you could say "you may have not understood well what your sources reported" or "those sources don't represent the majority of the development world on Wii U", but bs, meh.

But let's not derail the thread on a pointless argument

 

[Barack Lesnar]

It's certainly bitter to accuse someone of telling bs in a number of posts i stopped to count since months. BS = bullshit = lies , fabricated statements, not based on something. It's blatantly disrespectful for me to still believe (most have stopped after the pre-E3 2012 nintendo direct) that i would decide to lost i don't how many hours and efforts to write lies on a gaming board.

At worst, you could say "you may have not understood well what your sources reported" or "those sources don't represent the majority of the development world on Wii U", but bs, meh.

But let's not derail the thread on a pointless argument

What Van Owen said, then.

 

[AzaK]

IdeaMan, I'm not saying you don't have some inside info, but as far as development and Wii U's capabilities go, I don't think you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about.

No offense or anything though.

Don't be a dick Van Owen. IM never said he was a tech. He has however told us numerous things that turned out true and he is also relaying info from devs saying the have. Had no/little problems and their progress throughout the dev kit revisions. All he's ever said is that we should see 360 level games with good GamePad use and some effects. Take that and you can see that we're seeing that in, say CoD but with launch title issues combined with a relatively steep learning curve. It all really does add up.

 

[QaaQer]

I agree. It's just disappointing for launch day ports after the promises made since one year (on the easy port, etc). And i don't know why we should be concerned for the RAM speed whereas we never heard once complains about it, on the contrary.

NDAs.

 

[Mlatador]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

 

[cyberheater]

I'm not trying to draw any conclusions, but it's still an amusing note. While the WiiU was rumored to be architecturally similar the the 360 much of the early conversation sounds eerily reminiscent of the rhetoric surrounding PS3. 'It's still early. Developers need to stop being lazy. Games need to be built from the ground-up.' I'm wondering how long it will be until we finally reach WiiU/360/PS3 games need to be built with WiiU as lead platform.

An interesting point. On the other hand. I really can't see WiiU being the lead platform for any multiplatform dev. From a financial point of view, I can't see it be worth it.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

Why the fuck is it slower than xbox360? I don't get it...

 

[maquiladora]

Why the fuck is it slower than xbox360? I don't get it...

Slower ram costs less.

 

[snowdog1971]

An interesting point. On the other hand. I really can't see WiiU being the lead platform for any multiplatform dev. From a financial point of view, I can't see it be worth it.

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

 

[ghst]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

does your immaginary dog work for 4A games?

 

[disappeared]

Slower ram costs less.

And Nintendo is still selling the console at a loss, apparently.

 

[Osiris]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

Wait... what?

There's delusional and there's totally hatstand, biscuit-barrel whoop-whoop crazy.

You have indeed crossed the Rubicon there.

 

[cyberheater]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

If WiiU is lead platform for any next gen game then I'm not buying it. Simple as that.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

Nintendo so should have bridged the gap between gens, instead of releasing a console that can barely compete with 7 year old tech. It's just flabbergasting.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

I am not certain if your being serious but Wii U will never be the lead platform for next gen .
It will be PC or PS4\720 , no one is going to build there engine base on Wii u specs which are DirectX 10 plus ( of course Nintendo won't be using that )

 

[fizzelopeguss]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

Ohhh i do love a good meltdown.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

so what happened this gen?

 

[i-Lo]

Pertaining to RAM and GPU, if the bandwidth of RAM is around 12GB/sec and thereby the becoming a bottleneck, was there any point in having a GPU with a bandwidth of 50GB/sec?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

If WiiU is lead platform for any next gen game then I'm not buying it. Simple as that.

Same

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

I feel so bad now.

NINTENDO DID THIS TO YOU. *Strokes* But im here now. It's ok.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Pertaining to RAM and GPU, if the bandwidth of RAM is around 12GB/sec and thereby the becoming a bottleneck, was there any point in having a GPU with a bandwidth of 50GB/sec?

You're talking about a stock R700 series card? AMD used different memory controllers depending on what version you're talking about. And Nintendo's memory controller is custom.

 

[ozfunghi]

I of course don't have any proof otherwise but this sounds like a bunch of bs to me. For example, he references 2x memory when mentioning additional power but ignores the dreadful speed/bandwidth of said memory. Whole post sounds bs-ish.

IdeaMan, I'm not saying you don't have some inside info, but as far as development and Wii U's capabilities go, I don't think you have any idea what the fuck you're talking about.

No offense or anything though.

hehe, can't help but smile a bit upon reading this. Ideaman isn't a techhead, he never claimed to be, he's a former games journalist and i guess his understanding of technology is at least on par with such journalists as that idiot this weekend that kept insisting that the WiiU discs are standard DVD's. So there's that.

Further more, just to be clear, neither of you are techies either (me neither for that matter, only a fraction of posters on neogaf have any authority on the matter). But it's funny to see people with no more understanding of the WiiU tech than him, targeting him, labeling him as some nitwit. At least he has sources so i'll read what he has to say more carefully than most other posters, including you.

 

[SolarPowered]

If WiiU is lead platform for any next gen game then I'm not buying it. Simple as that.

But Bayonetta 2...

This system is ripping me to shreds. Nintendo hardware keeps getting worse and worse, but the games are enticing. Shoot... I have more Wii games than I do 360 or PS3(not together). The hardware is just so bad though...

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

why would anyone lead on wiiu?

 

[i-Lo]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

The only one truth in all that post is "lowest".

As for the rest, thanks for the chuckles.

 

[cyberheater]

Pertaining to RAM and GPU, if the bandwidth of RAM is around 12GB/sec and thereby the becoming a bottleneck, was there any point in having a GPU with a bandwidth of 50GB/sec?

It's a really good question I've been pondering myself. Some folks will say that the holy grail, I mean the 32mb of Edram will save the day. My question is how? How does this Edram that's meant to sit near the GPU help transform the really slow main memory. How?

 

[OMT]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

Nah, but there is a lot of immaturity going on here. People who don't understand the whole "lateral thinking with withered technology" philosophy.

If Nintendo is cool with using old or slow RAM in this area, it's probably because they've figured out how to do something really interesting with it.

 

[codhand]

Ideaman isn't a techhead, i guess his understanding of technology is at least on par with that idiot this weekend that kept insisting that the WiiU discs are standard DVD's.

ouch man


porting to wii u is a breeze though

Spoiler

if you give two fucks about framerate.

 

[i-Lo]

You're talking about a stock R700 series card? AMD used different memory controllers depending on what version you're talking about. And Nintendo's memory controller is custom.

No, from what I've been reading in many convoluted WiiU threads here, the GPU in the console has a bandwidth of about 50GB/sec which is about 4 times the bandwidth of the RAM. As a lay person, I thought that the system is only as fast as the slowest component. Thus, a GPU with around 12GB/sec should have sufficed given bandwidth the processing speed are two different things. In the regard, couldn't the system save on even more power?

 

[Reiko]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

Looking at this:

And this:

PC is leading next gen. Everything else is just porting down.

 

[TheExodu5]

Pertaining to RAM and GPU, if the bandwidth of RAM is around 12GB/sec and thereby the becoming a bottleneck, was there any point in having a GPU with a bandwidth of 50GB/sec?

There's still the eDRAM to consider.

 

[Ryoku]

No, from what I've been reading in many convoluted WiiU threads here, the GPU in the console has a bandwidth of about 50GB/sec which is about 4 times the bandwidth of the RAM. As a lay person, I thought that the system is only as fast as the slowest component. Thus, a GPU with around 12GB/sec should have sufficed given bandwidth the processing speed are two different things. In the regard, couldn't the system save on even more power?

The ~50GB/s bandwidth rumor comes from AnandTech's teardown which stated just the size of the GPU (which is somewhat close to RV740, if it's on a 40nm process). Even then, I don't know just how much data the EDRAM can take, or whether or not that it's enough to overcome (and possibly more) the bottleneck presented by the DDR3 RAM. It would be helpful if someone more versed in this can chime in.

 

[GhostTrick]

I don't get the stupid hate for IdeaMan. I mean he has proven that he has some informations, from actual developpers. None of them said ram is a bottleneck. None.
Now, I still think Wii U is more powerfull than PS360.
Not that much, but powerfull enough to run at least same games with one more screen.
Because yes, comparisons show only one screen. Wii U also render a second 480p screen. Now as far as I know, Wii U is like an Xbox 360+. Slightly more powerfull, newer tech so no need to fake some effects and finally enough power to render 2 scenes.
People says :"lol complaining about rushed port."
But it seems those games are rushed port. Rushed to be ready at line up, and developped by smaller B-team with limited budget.

 

[Osiris]

No, from what I've been reading in many convoluted WiiU threads here, the GPU in the console has a bandwidth of about 50GB/sec which is about 4 times the bandwidth of the RAM. As a lay person, I thought that the system is only as fast as the slowest component. Thus, a GPU with around 12GB/sec should have sufficed given bandwidth the processing speed are two different things. In the regard, couldn't the system save on even more power?

GPU will be fed from the fast bandwidth eDRAM, eDRAM will be fed by the slower 12.8GB/s main ram. Therefore as well as holding the framebuffers etc. this 32Mb will need to be used as a fast cache to make up for the slow bandwidth from main memory.

How successful that is, and what limitations the slow feed from main memory is yet to be seen, however I expect that it'll be how the Wii-U achieves parity with the PS360, little more.

 

[Father_Brain]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

This is not going to happen, unless Wii U sells well (likely), and core software sells on it early on (less likely), and PS4/Durango struggle badly enough early on as to force publishers to drastically reevaluate their next-gen development strategies.

Even then, it's not guaranteed that PS4/Durango resources would be diverted towards Wii U, and if they were, we wouldn't see this bear fruit until 2015 or even 2016.

 

[codhand]

I don't know just how much data the EDRAM can take, or whether or not that it's enough to overcome (and possibly more) the bottleneck presented by the DDR3 RAM. It would be helpful if someone more versed in this can chime in.

I would be more optimistic if even one port was superior on Wii U.

 

[Extra Sauce]

360 - 22.5GB/s

PS3 uses XDR slightly higher than 360

~25% difference between 360 and WiiU in terms of general purpose RAM speed.

But noone cares about WiiU power anyway. Its about seeing Nintendo games in HD.

The sad part is that they're not even in HD.

 

[i-Lo]

GPU will be fed from the fast bandwidth eDRAM, eDRAM will be fed by the slower 12.8GB/s main ram. Therefore as well as holding the framebuffers etc. this 32Mb will need to be used as a fast cache to make up for the slow bandwidth from main memory.

How successful that is, and what limitations the slow feed from main memory is yet to be seen, however I expect that it'll be how the Wii-U achieves parity with the PS360, little more.

Now that makes sense. Thank you.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

So the Wii U has 43% slower, but 200% more RAM than PS360 (If counting the 1 GB for the OS)

Clearly many people don't have a fucking clue what 43% slower RAM even means in the context of the rest of the Wii U's components, of which most of them arent even known yet (CPU clockspeed, GPU, EDram) and how all of that is gonna interact with each other on a system that is architecturally diffent that the PS360.

Most of GAF has degraded themselves to ingnorant, fanboish trolls, not capably of any rational thought. Just like animals. Throw them some numbers and they'll glady jump on them with their premature conlusions and half-knowledge of things. I bet my immaginary dog knows as much as most of the people here about the Wii U's hardware, overall capacity or prospect of success in the market.

It was the bait all the anti-Nintendo fanboys/trolls were expecting.

 

[The Boat]

The sad part is that they're not even in HD.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Tallshortman]

It doesn't come down to brute force mate. Launch day ports on any new platform are a pain in the arse to work on - even Deep Thought would struggle with day one ports due to a completely new architecture and time needed to bring said port to the new platform amid constant SDK and hardware revisions.

You'll see patches during this next week or two fixing performance issues as per usual. This isn't anything new, although I guess this is the first time patches have been implemented on a Nintendo home console.

You'll find both the PS4 and 720 having the same problems with ports that the U is having now, no matter how much more powerful they are. It always happens with new hardware, has always happened in the past with new hardware and will always happen in the future with new hardware.

I'm not too worried about the RAM, the CPU and the GPU tbh, there's obviously a lot more going on under the hood that even the most vigourous teardown isn't going to reveal. Nintendo have always released balanced systems.

Someone at Shin'en recently praised the Wii U for having bugger all latency and Ancel has previously stated that the U has almost unlimited RAM, the latter of which combined with the huge amount of on-board flash reserved for that first system update leads me to believe I'm close to being correct about developers having swapspace available to play with for memory access.

If anyone else has any theories about why 4.2GB (?) of RAM is set aside after that update I'd love to hear them. 4.2GB is waaaaay too big for an OS footprint.

Did you edit out the prediction that WiiU will be lead platform for all multiplat 720/ps4 games? I'd like to save that little gem.

 

[mrklaw]

Thing is, what does 32MB of EDRAM give you if you're using FSAA? Not a lot right? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems tht if you are using a significant amount of RAM for textures (that might be displayed in a frame) then you're going to bottleneck the system with only 32MB of EDRAM. It can only go as fast as the slowest component if you're continually needing to retrieve from that slowest component.

Depends. My point was that a free roaming game will naturally have less memory used for textures and models per frame because
1) some is used for buffering
2) your memory used per frame is limited by how fast you can read off the disc



But overall your general point is correct. However, lots of processes can take place within edram, which 'takes a lot of the cars off the road', freeing up capacity for textures and model data. So your road might be narrower, but with careful use of edram you have less traffic on it.

 

[Ryoku]

The sad part is that they're not even in HD.

What?

 

[Teletraan1]

I am not a dev so maybe someone who is in the know can answer this.

From what we are seeing we aren't getting too much AA in these games. Originally there was some talk that this eDRAM would be able to pretty much provide "free AA" and possibly other post processing effects for free. However now that it seems to be required to prop up the ram does it no longer provide the benefits it could have if it was paired with faster ram since it is being leaned on so heavily?

 

[Goodlife]

Looking at this:

http://h9.abload.de/img/untitled-2pd9fz.gif

And this:

http://i.minus.com/ibcUynCutGtfED.gif

PC is leading next gen. Everything else is just porting down.

See, I'm not saying they don't look better than what we've got now, but they just don't look all that different to me.

That Agni's Philosophy demo.... that looked amazing, mind.

 

[i-Lo]

We're more likely to see the Wii U being the lead platform next gen rather than for any of the remainder of this gen. It's going to have the largest marketshare and developers in their right minds will target the lowest common denominator.

The sales of ZombiU, Black Ops 2, Assassins Creed 3, Rayman Legends, FIFA 13 and Aliens Colonial Marines will show publishers that there's a market for bringing 'hardcore' titles to the U. Some people are going to be surprised by seeing the U being the lead platform next gen I think.

Just going to add this: The third party devs would incur heavy losses if in their "right" mind they target WiiU as the system to lead on primarily because consumers will buy products that 'show' the generational shift in tech via graphical fidelity promised by next gen hardware. To call leading on WiiU for next gen "unwise" or "illogical" is putting it mildly.

The WiiU is unable to properly handle current gen ports which are in their twilight years. If you are expecting that people will buy software made for XB3/PS4 that looks like an anti-aliased version of WiiU's release then you are delusional.

 

[Fabrik]

We're already seeing accusations of "lazy developers" being thrown. That was a popular term during the PS3's early days, too.

It's kind of true though. Not the developers fault but the publishers making them create a port in 3 months tops.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Looking at this:


PC is leading next gen. Everything else is just porting down.

I love my PC (16 gigs, 7970, I7 3770k) so I wouldn't mind that, but devs will continue to use consoles as the lead platform. There is just more money in it. Also you don't have to worry about the countless amount of shitty pc's out there.