DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Comments on the Beach Boys video are hilarious.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Comments on the Beach Boys video are hilarious.
Ken is just like the Luteces. That's the only explanation.
therealminime
Member
I want to believe.
SpartanForce
Member
So if he is dead in all universes why the post-credits scene?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Nope. Minor cosmetic difference to give the illusion of choice, it's another experiment for the Lutece's to perform.
Chair has no overt significance, afaik.
To fix the 'wrongness' that is Comstock's final plan of destroying everybody that isn't part of Columbia. It's primarily the Male Lutece's idea, and the female goes along with it because he threatens to leave her behind otherwise.
Booker does not 'become' that Booker, he merely experiences their memories as he's jumping into their reality with the nosebleeds. Otherwise, he would have died as soon as he entered the Vox associated Booker's reality. You don't 'become' someone through temporal displacement, you're 'another' version of that person, there are two of you 'present' in the same universe, hence the universe tying together memories and the nosebleeds, etc.
In the same fashion, Liz does not become 'outside' of the timelines, she merely has the power to break through the space/time barrier. Her ability to perceive the universe as a larger entity does not necessarily free her from its constraints entirely, as seen by her disappearance at the end during the piano fading to black section.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Oh, a what's the deal with the necklace choice? I chose cage, and then c. a. g. e. ended up being the song to control songbird.
For the new page: SONGBIRD IS IN BIOSHOCK 1:
You can hear his death cry in Fort Frolic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmvkZ6TIMk (at the 14 second mark).
For comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjYmlnP1a4
Booker and Elizabeth were in the Rapture Metro while Jack was dealing with Cohen down in Fort Frolic...
MIND. BLOWN.
You can hear his death cry in Fort Frolic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmvkZ6TIMk (at the 14 second mark).
For comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjYmlnP1a4
Booker and Elizabeth were in the Rapture Metro while Jack was dealing with Cohen down in Fort Frolic...
MIND. BLOWN.
XANDER CAGE
Member
It could just be a coincidence, given that I assume the sound director in both games is the same. Or maybe Infinite was already in pre-production before 1 went gold. Maybe someone on youtube is fucking with us.
I want to believe, but... that's crazy.
toastyToast
Member
What about the martyr Booker dimension?
sssstententen
Member
My life is a lie....
KENNNNN
KENNNNN
ShockingAlberto
Member
GameFront did a video explaining the ending. Not bad at all.
SammiiDoogles
Member
I want to believe but the comments are all saying that's the sound of the Chameleon tonic. I never used it so I can't say for myself. If it is songbird then my mind is firmly blown.
Sanctuary
Member
Or it could just be as simple as reused assets. You know, because that's done a lot?
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
The after credits scene is also very similar to Monster Inc.
Incendiary
Banned
I want to replay Bioshock now to see if it's accurate or YouTube fuckery. I mean, the video was posted in 2012....
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
This isn't particularly story related but it is spoilerish so I figured I'd post it here. For my first playthrough I'm playing on 1999 mode. Did anyone else have trouble with the Lady Comstock boss? I kept getting into a situation where I would die extremely fuckin' fast and it sucks cuz she regenerates her health so my ammo situation slowly went to shit too. Here's how I beat her:
This game imposes a dumb 2 weapon limit and I wanted to have as many guns on me as I could. So I kept equipping and de-equipping weapons to move them to the little gazebo or whatever near where you start at in the fight. I noticed that the AI didn't know how to navigate behind the coffin to get me. So I proceeded like so
until I had a nice collection of awesome weapons including the Hand Cannon, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, Hail Whatever Its Called, and that Heat Gun thing. It took maybe 5 minutes, not too bad. Obviously you want to have the medkit tear open but you shouldn't be losing much health anyways.
To grab her attention, just use the Horse Float magic on the soldiers then run out and shoot at her a little. That should do it. Hide behind the coffin as pictured below and shoot at her whenever she comes into view. You'll want to duck in and out of cover because (A) the soldiers can still shoot at you if you're standing and (B) her charge area of effect attack that she telegraphs can hurt you too. It's very rare that either her or a soldier will come behind the coffin but it's not a big deal if they do. Just blast 'em. I suggest you turn enemy health bars on for this fight, I had them off because I think they're ugly.
Killed her on my first try with this method.
This game imposes a dumb 2 weapon limit and I wanted to have as many guns on me as I could. So I kept equipping and de-equipping weapons to move them to the little gazebo or whatever near where you start at in the fight. I noticed that the AI didn't know how to navigate behind the coffin to get me. So I proceeded like so
until I had a nice collection of awesome weapons including the Hand Cannon, Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, Hail Whatever Its Called, and that Heat Gun thing. It took maybe 5 minutes, not too bad. Obviously you want to have the medkit tear open but you shouldn't be losing much health anyways.
To grab her attention, just use the Horse Float magic on the soldiers then run out and shoot at her a little. That should do it. Hide behind the coffin as pictured below and shoot at her whenever she comes into view. You'll want to duck in and out of cover because (A) the soldiers can still shoot at you if you're standing and (B) her charge area of effect attack that she telegraphs can hurt you too. It's very rare that either her or a soldier will come behind the coffin but it's not a big deal if they do. Just blast 'em. I suggest you turn enemy health bars on for this fight, I had them off because I think they're ugly.
Killed her on my first try with this method.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Jacksonlee
Member
holy crud
What the fuck? FOR REAL?
I guess it could be similar-sounding ambient noise though...
XANDER CAGE
Member
John Goodman and Billy Crystal confirmed for BioShock 3.
Also, someone needs to check BioShock 1 and see if the Chameleon tonic activating makes that sound. I don't recall a shrill scream everytime I went invisible.
SpartanForce
Member
One thing though the game was very linear, I thought it was gonna have more choices, like that horse from the early trailer gameplay
I see thanks, at this point it is much easier to say that Elizabeth simply doesn't need him to make a choice.
In fact she can only exist in those realities where the Booker she's facing has accepted the baptism. So she's erasing herself as Elizabeth among with Comstock, Columbia. What is left are the dimensions where Booker leaves and she isn't here at all. She will be born later as Anna.
That was my doubt as well because at first it seems that Elizabeth is in every possible dimension and kills him not matter what, but effectively she's only in those realities where she knows that Booker will become Comstock. So basically she's doing just doing time traveling in those realities where she exists.
So, after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and reading a lo-o-ot of this thread, here's where I'm at right now.
In the end baptism scene, before Liz's reality disappears, Liz looks towards the door and the camera pans up to it. This must mean something. It signifies that there is something more than simply the Anna/Liz timeline disappearing from what is, was and will be. It's like she's thinking to herself "My work is done here, but there are other realities that will keep going on through that door". The post-credits scene backs this up and I don't think it was just tacked on. Perhaps I'm underestimating the power of people wanting a happy ending, but I'm not sure a single sale of the game would be effected by the inclusion or not of that scene. Personally I'd think the game would have wrapped up well enough without it, but I like those kinda endings.
So, I'm concluding that the post credit scene is 'canon'. This tells me that there is a timeline after the baptism for Booker and Anna.
This just leaves me with "how"? It's clear that Booker was killed before he made the choice. "Before the choice is made" and "No, I'm both" make that hard to get around. The fact that he doesn't struggle much indicates that he accepts his fate and it's probably the only real shot at redemption he has. Either that or the writing was badly ambiguous - I'm assuming it's not for the time being.
This kinda leaves the theory that in any event where booker said yes to baptism, that would automatically create instances where the events of the game take place - Comstock combines with Lutece, Columbia is created, Liz is bought and Bookers are brought through tears as puppets for the Luteces to fix it. So then, in any instance of Booker saying "yes" to baptism, it would automatically flow from that the "time lord" instances of Liz who would stop it from ever happening. This would automatically close off any possibility of the events ever happening.
In effect, what we played in the game was in fact just a closed set of possibilities of events that get closed off even before they begin. As a few people have said, a variable becomes a constant.
The fact that he sounds surprised in the post credit scene when he calls out Anna's name indicates that (a) he has sold Anna but she's somehow back, (b) he's just wishing she was back but she isn't or (c) he somehow has memories of his other timeline experiences in Columbia and is worried that Anna isn't there, even though she is safe and sound (depressed, gambling, alcoholic father aside). I'm going to ponder that further but I'm leaning towards C. C would give Booker the "A Christmas Carol" foresight to turn his and Anna's life around - probably the thing that Liz would have hoped for in the end.
Huh, so it does. Good catch. I think it's probably just to make the crib reveal look better. It could also be done so that he uses his left hand instead of his right, so you don't know if "AD" is written on it.
In the end baptism scene, before Liz's reality disappears, Liz looks towards the door and the camera pans up to it. This must mean something. It signifies that there is something more than simply the Anna/Liz timeline disappearing from what is, was and will be. It's like she's thinking to herself "My work is done here, but there are other realities that will keep going on through that door". The post-credits scene backs this up and I don't think it was just tacked on. Perhaps I'm underestimating the power of people wanting a happy ending, but I'm not sure a single sale of the game would be effected by the inclusion or not of that scene. Personally I'd think the game would have wrapped up well enough without it, but I like those kinda endings.
So, I'm concluding that the post credit scene is 'canon'. This tells me that there is a timeline after the baptism for Booker and Anna.
This just leaves me with "how"? It's clear that Booker was killed before he made the choice. "Before the choice is made" and "No, I'm both" make that hard to get around. The fact that he doesn't struggle much indicates that he accepts his fate and it's probably the only real shot at redemption he has. Either that or the writing was badly ambiguous - I'm assuming it's not for the time being.
This kinda leaves the theory that in any event where booker said yes to baptism, that would automatically create instances where the events of the game take place - Comstock combines with Lutece, Columbia is created, Liz is bought and Bookers are brought through tears as puppets for the Luteces to fix it. So then, in any instance of Booker saying "yes" to baptism, it would automatically flow from that the "time lord" instances of Liz who would stop it from ever happening. This would automatically close off any possibility of the events ever happening.
In effect, what we played in the game was in fact just a closed set of possibilities of events that get closed off even before they begin. As a few people have said, a variable becomes a constant.
The fact that he sounds surprised in the post credit scene when he calls out Anna's name indicates that (a) he has sold Anna but she's somehow back, (b) he's just wishing she was back but she isn't or (c) he somehow has memories of his other timeline experiences in Columbia and is worried that Anna isn't there, even though she is safe and sound (depressed, gambling, alcoholic father aside). I'm going to ponder that further but I'm leaning towards C. C would give Booker the "A Christmas Carol" foresight to turn his and Anna's life around - probably the thing that Liz would have hoped for in the end.
Huh, so it does. Good catch. I think it's probably just to make the crib reveal look better. It could also be done so that he uses his left hand instead of his right, so you don't know if "AD" is written on it.
Hellsing321
Member
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
No, the camouflage tonic definitely activates after the cry starts.
I certainly don't remember that part from Bioshock 1, but it'd certainly be an interesting tie-in. Seems like a general horror noise to keep up the tension in the scene (as it continues longer than Songbird's actual cries do in Infinite's ending), and I really, really doubt Ken planned Songbird's death scene out 5 years in advance.
Would be an awesome easter egg if true.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I choose to believe.
#teamintentional
#teamintentional
That's one thing I'm not quite clear on. Considering everyone else that Booker killed when they jumped was a sorta zombie, it's a bit odd that in that dimension Booker had no zombie troubles.
It might be that they didn't really kill him there but just faked it publicly so as to create a martyr, but they don't confirm the whereabouts of that Booker.
That Booker actually died because Daisy said she saw him killed with her own eyes. Which leads to her calling him an imposer and the Vox Populi to start attacking him
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Someone should be able to drag up some other Bioshock 1 videos to find out if that sound is still there.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Because him being dead depends inherently upon Booker being able to accept the baptism. In order for Booker to survive and prevent a paradox occuring the choice at the baptism becomes a constant, whereby Booker must reject the baptism. This becomes a constant which means one set of Bookers become an alchoholic and live with Anna. Everything that happened in the game was turned into a paradox however and thus there is no interference from Comstock, because Booker can never accept the baptism due to it (now) being a constant. The choice at the baptism is literally removed and the universes is telling Booker 'You MUST reject it'.
EDIT:
Precisely.
Yes to the first, no to the bolded. She is drowning him in every universe no matter what (not just where he becomes Comstock), we are told this. But Elizabeth's existence depends upon Comstock. That means every Booker is only murdered if any Booker can become Comstock. This would be a paradox. To avoid this, your first bit is correct. There is no choice at the baptism anymore. All sets of universes where Comstock exists are erased/collapsed/destroyed so the only remaining probability is that Booker must reject the baptism so that the paradox of every Booker's death doesn't occur
EDIT: I think this summarises the nature of it as simply and concisely as possible:
The idea of the ending, whereby every Booker is murdered before the choice so every Booker must reject to avoid being murdered is so completely different from how we would normally think that it's pretty difficult to fully get to grasp with, so to speak. We would naturally assume that if every Booker dies before the choice, no Booker can reject or accept, but this isn't true when the murderer's existence is a paradox dependant on one of the choice's variables.
So I think I'm officially going to lean towards the final credit ending being Booker stuck in an Infinite loop destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
Why?
Honestly, because it seems to gel much more with the theme of the game which is "Choices are Illusions". I think knowing that he made a final choice of being drowned, in hopes of changing something, would still be deemed irrelevant by the games philosophy.
So, I personally will officially side that Booker choice didn't matter at the end of sacrificing his life, and that he will forever be stuck in an eternal loop facing the same pain and suffering forever.
Gives it a much more bitter impact, but also a much more thoughtful one as well.
Why?
Honestly, because it seems to gel much more with the theme of the game which is "Choices are Illusions". I think knowing that he made a final choice of being drowned, in hopes of changing something, would still be deemed irrelevant by the games philosophy.
So, I personally will officially side that Booker choice didn't matter at the end of sacrificing his life, and that he will forever be stuck in an eternal loop facing the same pain and suffering forever.
Gives it a much more bitter impact, but also a much more thoughtful one as well.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
But if your theory is was true, Booker would have merged with Comstock as soon as he entered through the tear, no?
Plus, Fitzroy says she saw you die with her own eyes.
You don't merge with someone in when entering their timeline, you get their memories because the universe recognizes you as the 'same' person, and since your brainwaves are the same (or whatever), you have memory overload, hence the nosebleeds.
I am curious as to how Booker avoided going full zombie right after killing Comstock, however. Perhaps his guilt/dissociation from Comstock saves him from total mental overload? It would also explain his not gaining knowledge of Comstock's plans...
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
The problem with that (at least, IMO) is that Liz states that she can see 'all of the doors'. If the final conclusion had no weight, and the cycle is repeating, she's either lying, uninformed, or something else is happening that the player has no ability to discern, which doesn't really make for good conveyance.
Rephrasing, if Liz would be lying or misinformed given the level of power she displays, how can we trust anything the ending says at all?
sssstententen
Member
Just you wait, people are gonna start playing bioshock 1 and 2 then realize that the names of some of the characters are Anagrams for Lutece and such, and its all going to be one huge explosion.
Yes. Fink built Songbird as a warden and guardian for Elizabeth at Comstock's behest.
It's believed that he was "inspired" by a glimpse as the Big Daddies in Rapture (through a "tear," of course).
Songbird seems to be a mixture of leather, mechanical parts, and surely some organic matter, as well (blood flows out of his visors when he is crushed in the depths of the ocean). He's controlled by song, but his impetus is rather simple: protect Elizabeth.