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[Nemesis_]

If it was him in a DLC side story, will you hate it?

I seriously don't know how I would feel about it. on one hand if it was someone random it would have no impact, while having it as someone like ANOTHER Booker would start to sound like NANOMACHINES or A WIZARD DID IT kind of plot devices.


I don't know what I want but I have a feeling Ken is leaving it ambiguous without intent to further detail it.


I will eat my words once we hear more though =P

 

[Dance Inferno]

You've actually understood the difficult part of this. In order for Elizabeth to exist, a single Booker has to be able to accept the baptism. If a single Booker accepts the baptism, no Booker accepts the baptism, because every Booker was murdered before the choice. The probability of accepting the baptism leading to a paradox is 100%. A paradox cannot happen, ever, and thus the probability of any Booker accepting the baptism is removed. Therefore, Booker rejecting the baptism becomes a constant, because if every Booker rejects the baptism, the paradox doesn't occur.

Thank you for finally putting it in terms that I can understand. I've been reading a lot about this paradox and how it makes the rejection of the baptism a constant, but it's never been explained in terms I could wrap my head around.

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

The Luteces could viably be recurring characters in the Bioshock universe given their nature, if they're still floating around in space-time. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if they showed up in the next one, though it would probably be in more of a cameo capacity I imagine.

God I would love another game with the Luteces except you'd already know that something is off just by their mere inclusion.

 

[Vortex566]

The first siren encounter made me turn off my computer. I had to turn down the difficulty to get past her, but strangely the second and third time were a lot easier.

 

[SolsticeZero]

The first siren encounter made me turn off my computer. I had to turn down the difficulty to get past her, but strangely the second and third time were a lot easier.

I had a problem at first, but then it got easy. As soon as she raises the dead, I tossed a devil's kiss and shot her with as much hand cannon as I could. Another devil's kiss killed the guys. Rinse. Repeat.

 

[Salamando]

Lutece pondering the origins of Elizabeth's abilities over the voxophone is basically the only thing there is to go on. It's the closest thing to canon, albeit it still leaves room to maneuver as Lutece is technically only theorizing.

Hoping there's DLC that expands on the Luteces a bit. They're scientists, so after observing this and creating this theory, they would've tested it. Grab some babies from their timeline, grab some from another timeline (but leave them whole), and grab a third set of babies from another timeline, but remove some minor body part. Thought that was what Comstock house would be, but if it was, I don't remember it being brought up.

 

[Enco]

That's incorrect. The female Lutece addresses this in a Voxophone:
"What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge."
The only experimenting that was probably done is to determine what triggers the tears. If female Lutece and male Lutece has given her the powers through testing, the Voxophone would not make sense

EDIT:


You've actually understood the difficult part of this. In order for Elizabeth to exist, a single Booker has to be able to accept the baptism. If a single Booker accepts the baptism, no Booker accepts the baptism, because every Booker was murdered before the choice. The probability of accepting the baptism leading to a paradox is 100%. A paradox cannot happen, ever, and thus the probability of any Booker accepting the baptism is removed. Therefore, Booker rejecting the baptism becomes a constant, because if every Booker rejects the baptism, the paradox doesn't occur.

Think of it this way: If, before the game's events, Booker always rejects the baptism, what happens? Nothing, no paradox is created so every Booker lives out their lives. The ending turns this into a certainty, it erases the probability of Booker ever accepting the baptism because that leads to the paradox where every Booker died before making it.

I must have missed that.

Good explanation!

I kinda guessed that Comstock was Booker but I usually make crazy guesses like that for fun and sometimes I end up right.

 

[Guevara]

Total speculation, but perhaps the songbird is Anna's real mother. Why else would it be so protective? That or alternate Booker make the most sense to me.

 

[LiK]

I never understood why the ghost was hard for people. I played on Normal so maybe that's why but she was kinda easy.

 

[ultron87]

Did the final fight where you control the Songbird kind of peter out for anyone else? It started out with all kinds of Zeppelins and landing craft flying around and the Songbird wrecking shit. But then at the end of it there were just a few guys on the deck coming up from below a few at a time. And then it was over (and Elizabeth got stuck on the Skyline and I had to restart the checkpoint to get her to go the bow).

 

[DTKT]

I never understood why the ghost was hard for people. I played on Normal so maybe that's why but she was kinda easy.

On Hard, if you are unprepared, the fight is a pain in the ass. There is very little ammo inside the cemetery and it's a pretty small area.

I had not put any points in Salts and entered the area with almost no ammo.

 

[LiK]

On Hard, if you are unprepared, the fight is a pain in the ass. There is very little ammo inside the cemetery and it's a pretty small area.

I had not put any points in Salts and entered the area with almost no ammo.

Ah that explains it.

 

[soundscream]

I never understood why the ghost was hard for people. I played on Normal so maybe that's why but she was kinda easy.

That was the only difficult part of the game for me :/

 

[Nibel]

"I'm.. both.."

Can't get that last scene out of my head - okay, this is the GOTY so far, seriously

 

[HoodWinked]

whats the deal with the coinflip always being heads.

at first i thought to myself that the coinflip was being manipulated by the Luteces then i thought it was more of an instance of where in the reality that you play as the coinflip had flipped heads.

even if you flipped heads 122 times in a row the next time the coin flipped there would still be a 50/50 chance at heads or tails (Gamber's Fallacy -wiki)

Only problem with this explanation is that it would require the Lucetes to have their own parallel existences each with their own chalkboard counters.
Lucetes supposedly exist outside of time and exist all times simultaneously in a non linear fashion which would mean only one chalkboard counter exists.

...so now im back to thinking that the coinflip is simply being manipulated by the Lucetes

 

[ultron87]

I never understood why the ghost was hard for people. I played on Normal so maybe that's why but she was kinda easy.

One problem is that you can actually go to the Cemetery before that fight, grab a bunch of the supplies and the move on since the level is kind of designed backwards. When I got there I had already grabbed and used the Heater and Crankgun and didn't have them as available resources.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

On Hard, if you are unprepared, the fight is a pain in the ass. There is very little ammo inside the cemetery and it's a pretty small area.

I had not put any points in Salts and entered the area with almost no ammo.

It doesn't help that there are an infinite number of people in every fight with her. That was... great.

 

[Emarv]

That's incorrect. The female Lutece addresses this in a Voxophone:
"What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is, and rather more with what she is not. A small part of her remains where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas mixed with its porridge."
The only experimenting that was probably done is to determine what triggers the tears. If female Lutece and male Lutece has given her the powers through testing, the Voxophone would not make sense

You've actually understood the difficult part of this. In order for Elizabeth to exist, a single Booker has to be able to accept the baptism. If a single Booker accepts the baptism, no Booker accepts the baptism, because every Booker was murdered before the choice. The probability of accepting the baptism leading to a paradox is 100%. A paradox cannot happen, ever, and thus the probability of any Booker accepting the baptism is removed. Therefore, Booker rejecting the baptism becomes a constant, because if every Booker rejects the baptism, the paradox doesn't occur.

Think of it this way: If, before the game's events, Booker always rejects the baptism, what happens? Nothing, no paradox is created so every Booker lives out their lives. The ending turns this into a certainty, it erases the probability of Booker ever accepting the baptism because that leads to the paradox where every Booker died before making it.

Great explanation.

Now this just has me wondering as to what level of catharsis we really achieved at the end from a storytelling perspective? Something like Looper talked about removing yourself from cyclical violence if you are yourself an agent of that cyclical violence. So, what does this removal say about Booker, his sins and his attempts at redemption?

I guess this is a question for that other thread or something...

 

[SolsticeZero]

whats the deal with the coinflip always being heads.

at first i thought to myself that the coinflip was being manipulated by the Luteces then i thought it was more of an instance of where in the reality that you play as the coinflip had flipped heads.

even if you flipped heads 122 times in a row the next time the coin flipped there would still be a 50/50 chance at heads or tails (Gamber's Fallacy -wiki)

Only problem with this explanation is that it would require the Lucetes to have their own parallel existences each with their own chalkboard counters.
Lucetes i supposedly exist outside of time and exist all times simultaneously in a non linear fashion which would mean only one chalkboard counter exists.

...so now im back to thinking that the coinflip is simply being manipulated by the Lucetes

It's not being manipulated. They're basically proving that some things are always constants. The coin flip, for example, is a universal constant, and always comes out heads.

 

[Dance Inferno]

whats the deal with the coinflip always being heads.

at first i thought to myself that the coinflip was being manipulated by the Luteces then i thought it was more of an instance of where in the reality that you play as the coinflip had flipped heads.

even if you flipped heads 122 times in a row the next time the coin flipped there would still be a 50/50 chance at heads or tails (Gamber's Fallacy -wiki)

Only problem with this explanation is that it would require the Lucetes to have their own parallel existences each with their own chalkboard counters.
Lucetes i supposedly exist outside of time and exist all times simultaneously in a non linear fashion which would mean only one chalkboard counter exists.

...so now im back to thinking that the coinflip is simply being manipulated by the Lucetes

I think it's because they only ever ask Booker to flip the coin, and they have brought many Bookers to Columbia to get Elizabeth. Remember that every time Booker dies, they bring another Booker through and the only thing they alter is what happened right before the time he died. They are basically nudging him towards finding Elizabeth. So if he does everything exactly the same every time he comes to Columbia, it would make sense that he always gets heads when he flips the coin.

 

[LiK]

He never rows.
It's always heads.
Any other constants

So did the gang of elizabeths kill booker at the end?

Yes

 

[GayForMaster]

So did the gang of elizabeths kill booker at the end?

 

[Vortex566]

On Hard, if you are unprepared, the fight is a pain in the ass. There is very little ammo inside the cemetery and it's a pretty small area.

I had not put any points in Salts and entered the area with almost no ammo.

This is what happened to me, and the only way I could get past it, was to move down to normal.

 

[Enco]

whats the deal with the coinflip always being heads.

at first i thought to myself that the coinflip was being manipulated by the Luteces then i thought it was more of an instance of where in the reality that you play as the coinflip had flipped heads.

even if you flipped heads 122 times in a row the next time the coin flipped there would still be a 50/50 chance at heads or tails (Gamber's Fallacy -wiki)

Only problem with this explanation is that it would require the Lucetes to have their own parallel existences each with their own chalkboard counters.
Lucetes i supposedly exist outside of time and exist all times simultaneously in a non linear fashion which would mean only one chalkboard counter exists.

...so now im back to thinking that the coinflip is simply being manipulated by the Lucetes

Supposedly it's to show that Booker has repeated that story and been to the city over and over again. Always with the same outcome. Apart from at the very end.

 

[HoodWinked]

I think it's because they only ever ask Booker to flip the coin, and they have brought many Bookers to Columbia to get Elizabeth. Remember that every time Booker dies, they bring another Booker through and the only thing they alter is what happened right before the time he died. They are basically nudging him towards finding Elizabeth. So if he does everything exactly the same every time he comes to Columbia, it would make sense that he always gets heads when he flips the coin.

thanks that makes sense. explains both of the problems with my theories.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

He never rows.
It's always heads.
Any other constants

Hmm, well, if you want to get really technical you could say that, for the set of Bookers relating to the story, everything prior to the baptism is a constant, as is the baptism itself (and prior to the end's events occuring, this can go further in that everything until when Booker enters the Lutece's tear to go rescue Anna is a constant as well since if a Booker dies he always has had those events happen, but I don't think that's what you mean by the universal constants Elizabeth is referring to ).

Although solely relating to the game the first I can think of is the locations of gear which is a constant while the gear you get is a variable (if you reload a checkpoint, the gear changes).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

"I'm.. both.."

Can't get that last scene out of my head - okay, this is the GOTY so far, seriously

While there are vast swaths of the game where I felt bored (pretty much most of the game from Daisy Fitzroy on), the ending really has it as the GOTY frontrunner in my mind.

I hope something beats it because I'd love to play another game this year that affects me as much.

 

[soundscream]

So did the gang of elizabeths kill booker at the end?

I think only the ones who took the baptisms, because of the end credit scene.

 

[Snkfanatic]

The first siren encounter made me turn off my computer. I had to turn down the difficulty to get past her, but strangely the second and third time were a lot easier.

Never gave me to much hassle, the second encounter was a bit tougher cause I was being a idiot and killing all her summons. Return to sender was amazing and it seemed to do the job pretty damn well.

Also I love that Vigor. Especially when you buy both upgrades and watch the bullets collect in your hand. Just made you feel badass.

 

[Guevara]

Did anyone else miss a true Telekinesis plasmid vigor? With all the piles of junk everywhere it would have been awesome.

 

[sn00zer]

Did anyone else miss a true Telekinesis plasmid vigor? With all the piles of junk everywhere it would have been awesome.

Id imagine it was cut, just because of feasibility...there literally no physics objects in Infinite...couldnt imagine Infinite running like it did on consoles with the addition of physics objects

 

[HoodWinked]

Wait a minute... after thinking about the ending a bit more its execution is sorta inconsistent.

So you play as Booker from the timeline where he gives away Anna so this is a post baptism Booker where he refused to go through with it.

Comstock is created post baptism as well where he did go though with the baptism so wouldnt killing the player's instance of Booker accomplish nothing. Also remember there are multiple Elizabeth's in the ending meaning they all are from separate realities as well.

Wouldnt it make more sense for you to see Booker/Elizabeth kill Booker before the baptism? maybe they just wanted a first person drowning scene to make it more impactful?

 

[Guevara]

Id imagine it was cut, just because of feasibility...there literally no physics objects in Infinite...couldnt imagine Infinite running like it did on consoles with the addition of physics objects

That's a good point.

 

[MuddyDonut]

Never gave me to much hassle, the second encounter was a bit tougher cause I was being a idiot and killing all her summons. Return to sender was amazing and it seemed to do the job pretty damn well.

Also I love that Vigor. Especially when you buy both upgrades and watch the bullets collect in your hand. Just made you feel badass.

Return to Sender is amazing all around. Really helpful and makes some giant encounters a cake walk. The bullet upgrade is what I've always wanted to do in a video game as well.

 

[Salamando]

Wait a minute... after thinking about the ending a bit more its execution is sorta inconsistent.

So you play as Booker from the timeline where he gives away Anna so this is a post baptism Booker where he refused to go through with it.

Comstock is created post baptism as well where he did go though with the baptism so wouldnt killing the player's instance of Booker accomplish nothing. Also remember there are multiple Elizabeth's in the ending meaning they all are from separate realities as well.

Wouldnt it make more sense for you to see Booker kill Booker before the baptism? maybe they just wanted a first person drowning scene to make it more impactful?

I took it to be more symbolic than anything. Kind of a "at that moment, Booker remembered he was drowned at his baptism" thing. Elizabeth/Anna would need to go to every branch where Booker attended his baptism, so they had to do a lot of drowning.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

This chick is so rad

 

[DigiMish]

So every time you die, when you're brought pack without Elizabeth reviving you - it's a different Booker? Hmmm...

 

[SmithnCo]

Never gave me to much hassle, the second encounter was a bit tougher cause I was being a idiot and killing all her summons. Return to sender was amazing and it seemed to do the job pretty damn well.

Also I love that Vigor. Especially when you buy both upgrades and watch the bullets collect in your hand. Just made you feel badass.

Return to Sender is one of the best. Lets you shoot while being invulnerable, and gives you a super strong attack for when you're ready to release.

 

[Team Klimt]

Did anyone else miss a true Telekinesis plasmid vigor? With all the piles of junk everywhere it would have been awesome.

New powers in the DLC. I imagine they'll bring back some old favorites (c'mon BEES!!)

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Do we ever go back to the "original" Columbia? The one we start in? Or do we stay in a third, different one till the end of the game?

 

[Team Klimt]

Return to Sender is one of the best. Lets you shoot while being invulnerable, and gives you a super strong attack for when you're ready to release.

I wish there was a new game plus so you could have it earlier. It's definitely my favorite vigor.

 

[Neiteio]

This chick is so rad

 

[kai3345]

Do we ever go back to the "original" Columbia? The one we start in? Or do we stay in a third, different one till the end of the game?

I'm pretty sure we're in the third one for the rest of the game.

 

[Dachande]

Ooh, I got another question, actually.

Anyone know what the brooch you choose for Elizabeth changes? I couldn't tell, the effect must be pretty subtle. I went for the bird though.

 

[DMB4237]

Ooh, I got another question, actually.

Anyone know what the brooch you choose for Elizabeth changes? I couldn't tell, the effect must be pretty subtle. I went for the bird though.

Absolutely nothing. Which is the point

 

[Guevara]

Do we ever go back to the "original" Columbia? The one we start in? Or do we stay in a third, different one till the end of the game?

My understanding is no. You start in a Columbia (1) where the Vox never gained superiority because the gun maker is dead and you aren't there to lead them.

You switch to a Columbia (2) where you lead the Vox to victory and died a hero.

You then see the future of Columbia (3) where Elizabeth has become the leader.

Is that right?

 

[SolsticeZero]

Ooh, I got another question, actually.

Anyone know what the brooch you choose for Elizabeth changes? I couldn't tell, the effect must be pretty subtle. I went for the bird though.

It doesn't change anything. I think it's presented in the same way as the coin flip, showing that constants and variables, undoubtedly, lead to the same end.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

My understanding is no. You start in a Columbia (1) where the Vox never gained superiority because the gun maker is dead and you aren't there to lead them.

You switch to a Columbia (2) where you lead the Vox to victory and died a hero.

You then see the future of Columbia (3) where Elizabeth has become the leader.

Is that right?

Then the fourth where Booker is sent back by OldElizabeth.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

If we get the Season Pass we get all the DLC included right?

 

[antitrop]

If we get the Season Pass we get all the DLC included right?

Yes.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/bioshock-infinite-dlc-season-pass-detailed-6404316