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#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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Woffls

Woffls

Member
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
 
M

MogCakes

Member
snack said:
Would someone with skills be kind enough to banner my avatar?
Click to expand...

IFb_P7_SFNODRM.png
 
B

Baller. PhD

Banned
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

10/10
 
D

Deitus

Member
Dark Fact said:
Great to see an outpour like this! I apologize if this was already brought up earlier, but there are many posts to sort through ;) Playing devil's advocate, what if the used game market was driven by us on their systems?

To explain, used games ultimately profit the people who hawk them, i.e. Gamestop, and they are making hand-over-fist off of us, both as a seller and as a buyer. If you were to have a market, like eBay, or Amazon Marketplace where you can sell your game direct at a price of your choosing, including Free, and receive the full amount of the payment yourself, less the service fee (just like any marketplace, including eBay, Amazon and Gamestop), would that be enticing?

It could work like this:

1) Buy the game (physical or digital)
-> Finished/tired of it and are ready to sell/give it away

2) Go onto the XBO/PS4 console store and choose, 'Sell a Game'

3) On the 'Sell a Game' page, select 'Public Sale' or 'Private Sale' and set a price ($0.00 ~ $99,999.00)

4) Game is bought by another user, which unlocks that game for them to download on their system (if it is a digital game)
-> If you bought and are selling the physical game, add in shipping cost, and drop it in the mail for them to receive, like eBay or Amazon

5) You receive the amount paid, less the service fee:
-> Free games = no service fee, at all (could be used to trade/give to friends/family, etc.)
-> Paid games = ~5%-15% service fee based on age/type of game, with a max fee not to exceed in the case of higher priced games (i.e. XBLA/PSN games vs. digital or physical retail released games, then within those categories, age of game)
--> The percentages mentioned above are within the range of what eBay & Amazon charge for selling on their sites, and WAY better than what you get from Gamestop

6) The payment to you can be either digital store credit or reimbursed to the Credit Card on your account
-> If store credit, the service fee is reduced by a set percentage; if reimbursed to your Credit Card, the standard fee is charged

7) The rights to play the game are removed from your console, but your saves/etc. remain in case you get the game again
-> If you had a physical game, obviously this is mailed out, and you no longer have it


This solves many issues of how the used game market works, and lets you give/receive games for Free, while putting the money from those service fees in the pockets of the platform holder and game publishers so we can continue to have a healthy game development market, rather than filling Gamestop, Amazon or eBay's pockets who care nothing about making games, only about profiting from them.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

An interesting system, and one I'd love to see Valve incorporate into Steam at some point.

However, it doesn't account for lending or trading games, which are functions of ownership I am unwilling to simply let go of. If you were to add the ability to transfer licenses to people on your friends list free of cost, I might be willing to accept this DRM future. I also fully realize why Microsoft would not be in favor of such a system.

Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

/slowclap
 
M

maltrain

Junior Member
Danlord said:
Would this be okay?

CYYH4pS.jpg


Edited: With Banner after realising I neglected it.
Click to expand...

Jaja... no, it's too happy. He would be look evil... well, he's a good guy so I think it's difficult to Cernify the great Roy Mustang.

Thanks, anyway.

Maybe the banner only, please?
 
K

Kane1345

Member
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

HOLY SHIT lol. That background music played in my head the entire time lol. Respect
 
Baleoce

Baleoce

Member
I took the opportunity in that "10 second video for NeoGAF Shift" thread to talk about the work we've all done in this thread. Hopefully if they pick it, it'll spread the word to a few extra people, or at least make 'em curious. Maybe a couple other people here could do it too, increase the chances of one of them being used?

Link: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=570833
 
F

famousmortimer

Banned
Still working on updating the op, is taking longer than I thought.


I did an interview with videogamer.com at about 5:30am my time (eastern) but it doesn't seem like they posted anything. Not sure if they dropped it or are still working on it. Anyway, main reason I wanted to post was to say that by my count we're at 164 write ups... that we know about.

That's fucking mental.
 
A

artist

Banned
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...
A.m.a.z.i.n.g
 
10101

10101

Gold Member
zomgbbqftw said:
So I got an interesting message from the same person as earlier from the third party publisher. He has this information third hand and I'll paraphrase to save time.

Says Sony have never had any used game or online controls. EA's special relationship with MS is a result of this stance from Sony. However all EA games will be on PS4 anyway, but EA and MS are going to step up marketing for Xbone and give (timed?) exclusive DLC/content. His conjecture is that Sony didn't want to spell out their policy until E3 to capitalise on any backlash at MS.

Again, this is third hand information, but he is adamant that Sony never approached his employer with any kind of used game lock proposition and his friends at other publishers say the same.
Click to expand...
Just caught up on the thread.

If this is true it's great news, and fuck those two! I doubt that any 3rd party would be able to release on just one console, that's why their multiplatform to begin with. Unless MS is going to money hat every game, which I seriously doubt.

Also to those saying this should also be about MS, did you read the thread? The old MS one was merged into this ages ago and people have been tweeting them too. Im no fanboy and I've tweeted MS a couple of times myself but if there is no concerted effort, who's to blame Sony fans? Please, it's on MS fans to get their shit together and get on board. No one here can or is stopping them.

From what I've read of this thread the MS fanboys seen more interested in occasionally coming into the thread and shitting on it by downplaying its significance or bemoaning its existence. If that same energy was put into tweeting it would have been far more productive.
 
Baleoce

Baleoce

Member
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

10/10. Would read it in my head using Will Smiths voice again.
 
E

EdibleExplosives

Member
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

tumblr_m5y5naQJO41qhyhq1o1_500.gif
 
Danlord

Danlord

Member
maltrain said:
Jaja... no, it's too happy. He would be look evil... well, he's a good guy so I think it's difficult to Cernify the great Roy Mustang.

Thanks, anyway.

Maybe the banner only, please?
Click to expand...

Here's the Banner-less Cerny
41g5mjK.jpg


No more guys, I don't want to seem like I'm spamming on the thread semi-derailing it off-topic. It's great most of GAF seemingly are adding the tag to their avatar, helps the awareness of it too.
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
Woffls said:
Soooo here's what I wrote for the tumblr thing... it might not be the issue most people are concerned about, but it falls under DRM for me - and yes I'm aware that I skipped the verses on the plane...

"Now, this is a story all about how my internet just keeps going down. And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you all about how I think "always-on" isn't fair.

In the City of London, near anyways, our internet seems to get a lot of undue praise. "Reliable, fast, and quite affordable too" - believe any of this then I call you a fool. I tell ya' man, our infrastructure ain't no good, causing loads of trouble in my neighbourhood. I make calls to BT but they just don't care, they say "I'm sorry Sir, that's the best line you can get over there".

I worry for the day, and it does seem near, for when we need to connect lest our games disappear. Not to mention that these games we might want to share, but they thought "Nah forget it - put clouds in the air!"

I don't think this is good, and it's not too late, to shout back in their faces "Yo homes smell ya later".

I look at this future,

and I really do care,

but "always online" really shouldn't be there."
Click to expand...

Nice one!
 
S

Stripper13

Member
So I was browsing NineMSN (biggest news site in Australia) and there was a link to an article they have. It's essentially detailing the campaign to prevent changes to always online and used games policies. Overall, it's a pretty positive article... Except, the headline and images are exclusively aimed at the PS4. Not entirely unusual given NineMSN is Microsoft owned or they're partners (can't remember exactly)... But still worth pointing out. Gave me a chuckle.
 
Woffls

Woffls

Member
famousmortimer said:
I did an interview with videogamer.com at about 5:30am my time (eastern) but it doesn't seem like they posted anything. Not sure if they dropped it or are still working on it.
Click to expand...
I'll chase that one up for you tomorrow. I've been part of their community for years, but they have had a lot of staff changes this year so I don't know how much influence I'll have these days...

Thanks for kind words on the rhymes yo. Wasn't sure if it flowed properly because it's late and I've had a few drinks :\ *hic* also I don't spend much time on the street.
 
F

famousmortimer

Banned
OP updated and now looks semi-ok.





The biggest piece of info added though is this:



UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
 
E

everyday math

Banned
famousmortimer said:
Still working on updating the op, is taking longer than I thought.


I did an interview with videogamer.com at about 5:30am my time (eastern) but it doesn't seem like they posted anything. Not sure if they dropped it or are still working on it. Anyway, main reason I wanted to post was to say that by my count we're at 164 write ups... that we know about.

That's fucking mental.
Click to expand...
Jebus!!
 
F

FlyFaster

Member
TeaFan said:
Neogaf banner outside E3, t-shirts etc lol
Click to expand...

Nice, Damn.... what if a bunch of journos on our side (gamers/consumer rights) all wore T-shirts with "#PS4NoDRM" on them?

Would be a great statement and clearly identify who has our backs and who doesn't. (i.e. where my clicks and donations will go in the future)
 
C

Carl

Member
famousmortimer said:
Still working on updating the op, is taking longer than I thought.


I did an interview with videogamer.com at about 5:30am my time (eastern) but it doesn't seem like they posted anything. Not sure if they dropped it or are still working on it. Anyway, main reason I wanted to post was to say that by my count we're at 164 write ups... that we know about.

That's fucking mental.
Click to expand...

Like i said yesterday, i think that carries a hell of a lot more weight than any amount of tweets.
 
10101

10101

Gold Member
famousmortimer said:
OP updated and now looks semi-ok.
Click to expand...
Looks great mate. Also agree with that plan you have going on there. I think the message has been received loud and clear by Sony which is great. The others though...

Also don't know if you noticed but I posted some other 3rd party twitter links on page 123, they may or may not be useful I don't know but they are there if you want to add them into the OP :)

EDIT: yeah page 123 not 89 too many pages!!!
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
Stripper13 said:
So I was browsing NineMSN (biggest news site in Australia) and there was a link to an article they have. It's essentially detailing the campaign to prevent changes to always online and used games policies. Overall, it's a pretty positive article... Except, the headline and images are exclusively aimed at the PS4. Not entirely unusual given NineMSN is Microsoft owned or they're partners (can't remember exactly)... But still worth pointing out. Gave me a chuckle.
Click to expand...

The article in question can be found here if someone wants to add it to the list :)
 
K

Kane1345

Member
famousmortimer said:
Still working on updating the op, is taking longer than I thought.


I did an interview with videogamer.com at about 5:30am my time (eastern) but it doesn't seem like they posted anything. Not sure if they dropped it or are still working on it. Anyway, main reason I wanted to post was to say that by my count we're at 164 write ups... that we know about.

That's fucking mental.
Click to expand...

My god. Im so used to seeing that page that I never realised how many are actually on there. That is a major achievment.
 
F

Freki

Member
famousmortimer said:
UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
Click to expand...

Sounds completely reasonable.
 
B

bigboss370

Member
famousmortimer said:
OP updated and now looks semi-ok.





The biggest piece of info added though is this:



UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
Click to expand...

tumblr_mismwrrO0e1rxhxsuo1_500.gif
 
B

Baller. PhD

Banned
famousmortimer said:
UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
Click to expand...

Solid plan. I'll be modifying the website accordingly in the coming days. For now I've removed the Tweet links directly to @PlayStation, @yosp etc. The letter doesn't make quite as much sense being addressed directly to the publishers, but they get the idea. ;)

famousmortimer said:
Oh and now that i'm finally able to pay proper attention to the thread again can someone do up my avatar?
Click to expand...

EghzHcx.png
 
E

everyday math

Banned
famousmortimer said:
OP updated and now looks semi-ok.





The biggest piece of info added though is this:



UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
Click to expand...
tumblr_md53tnyRU61r2vhmq.gif


OT: My Playstation 3 arrived from from Amazon today :D.....they gave me a code for Playstation plus that expired 2 months ago....jerks. :p
 
K

Kane1345

Member
famousmortimer said:
OP updated and now looks semi-ok.





The biggest piece of info added though is this:



UPDATED PLAN:

We have successfully made it very, very clear to Sony how we feel. It's our view that it would be best to back off tweeting directly at Sony employees for a bit but we do implore people to keep the hashtag #PS4NoDRM going. We know that this movement is bigger than just this forum and that people will continue to go on however they chose and that's totally cool. We are not trying to put the kabosh on people expressing themselves, but we did want to clarify our own plan.

After several days with just the hashtag simmering we will make one last push on Wednesday, June 5th and try to keep the momentum up on it into that weekend when everyone starts traveling to LA for E3. We will also try to build up a media presence by letting them know that this is coming so maybe we can get some press and the twitter thinking happening at once again.


As for third parties and Microsoft, keep tweeting them. Microsoft has said they are listening. The third parties will ignore us but we'll make sure that's impossible.

Also make sure you check out the last few pages of the thread, we may at any time during this lull be doing some more targeted or fun things. Never rude! Always polite. But, things like tweeting a link to people at Sony with the list of the 150+ links of stories about the movement may be happening, so go have a look.
Click to expand...

This big push, are you going to let the public know via the website?
 
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