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[dahuman]

What the shit does this have to do with America?

We are known to make huge deals out of stupid shit? Who gives a fuck what he thinks? It's a free country and people can be who they think they are but noooooooo, lets just blow everything out of proportion and not focus on the real issues we have in this land.

 

[Metrotab]

Reading that second explanation, I'm more inclined to agree with Gabe than ever.

Him getting pissed off and lashing out is why this is being discussed right now, but this was instigated so ridiculously by the PC police and in some part by the transgender community that it's just mindboggling.

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

The only thing anyone should reasonably expect from another person is to be polite and to not be violent or oppressive. We tolerate people that are different than us and treat them how we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean we adopt their core belief system. And it doesn't mean you're a hateful piece of shit because you don't adopt their beliefs.

But people are demanding just that. Not only that, they demand that other views not even be discussed.

This whole thing started from a panel at PAX that was going to discuss whether the PC police were contributing anything to the community. And instead of going to the fucking panel, listening to what they actually had to say, and asking them important questions in the Q&A, people go ballistic, call everyone bigots, and demand the conversation not be allowed to take place in the first place. Are you fucking kidding me?

Also contributing was discussion over a video game about girls learning to masturbate and people being offended that no one in the game had a dick... Are you fucking kidding me? This is a pure PC lexical complaint that is pure bullshit. It's just baffling.

And in the midst of this witch hunt, no one has stopped to think that even if you subscribe to the belief that a woman can be born inside a man's body and that that person ought to be called a "woman"—not a "transgender woman" even — but a woman, can you not understand how it might be considered inappropriate to the majority population to give girls a game about how to masturbate a penis? Honestly, the whole fucking thing sounds inappropriate to me regardless, but let's go off the assumption that a kids game about masturbation for educational purposes is an okay thing.

Was Gabe an asshole on Twitter? Yeah. Everyone admits it, even him. But fuck everyone who brought it to that point. This kind of shit is why you get drive-by "PC police" comments. It is out of control. It isn't even about disrespecting people, it's about striving so hard to be considered the same that it is offensive to be reminded that some people are in fact different.

And in the end, no one learned anything, and people just got pissed off at eachother, including boycotts.

And I reiterate what I asked before: is THIS the way forward?

 

[Brian Griffin]

Reading that second explanation, I'm more inclined to agree with Gabe than ever.

Him getting pissed off and lashing out is why this is being discussed right now, but this was instigated so ridiculously by the PC police and in some part by the transgender community that it's just mindboggling.

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

The only thing anyone should reasonably expect from another person is to be polite and to not be violent or oppressive. We tolerate people that are different than us and treat them how we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean we adopt their core belief system. And it doesn't mean you're a hateful piece of shit because you don't adopt their beliefs.

But people are demanding just that. Not only that, they demand that other views not even be discussed.

This whole thing started from a panel at PAX that was going to discuss whether the PC police were contributing anything to the community. And instead of going to the fucking panel, listening to what they actually had to say, and asking them important questions in the Q&A, people go ballistic, call everyone bigots, and demand the conversation not be allowed to take place in the first place. Are you fucking kidding me?

Also contributing was discussion over a video game about girls learning to masturbate and people being offended that no one in the game had a dick... Are you fucking kidding me? This is a pure PC lexical complaint that is pure bullshit. It's just baffling.

And in the midst of this witch hunt, no one has stopped to think that even if you subscribe to the belief that a woman can be born inside a man's body and that that person ought to be called a "woman"—not a "transgender woman" even — but a woman, can you not understand how it might be considered inappropriate to the majority population to give girls a game about how to masturbate a penis? Honestly, the whole fucking thing sounds inappropriate to me regardless, but let's go off the assumption that a kids game about masturbation for educational purposes is an okay thing.

Was Gabe an asshole on Twitter? Yeah. Everyone admits it, even him. But fuck everyone who brought it to that point. This kind of shit is why you get drive-by "PC police" comments. It is out of control. It isn't even about disrespecting people, it's about striving so hard to be considered the same that it is offensive to be reminded that some people are in fact different.

I posted this already but here it is again. Lots of great info there so read up!

Transgender Threads: A Primer

 

[thumb]

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

I was disappointed that you did not respond to my post to you that gave a very brief overview of some aspects of the biology of sexual identity. Keep in mind that most research is behind a paywall because it belongs to peer-reviewed journals.

Regardless, here is a review paper that discusses (in part) hormonal influences of sexual identity and development:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20724210

 

[IdiotMyshkin]

Reading that second explanation, I'm more inclined to agree with Gabe than ever.

Him getting pissed off and lashing out is why this is being discussed right now, but this was instigated so ridiculously by the PC police and in some part by the transgender community that it's just mindboggling.

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

The only thing anyone should reasonably expect from another person is to be polite and to not be violent or oppressive. We tolerate people that are different than us and treat them how we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean we adopt their core belief system. And it doesn't mean you're a hateful piece of shit because you don't adopt their beliefs.

But people are demanding just that. Not only that, they demand that other views not even be discussed.

This whole thing started from a panel at PAX that was going to discuss whether the PC police were contributing anything to the community. And instead of going to the fucking panel, listening to what they actually had to say, and asking them important questions in the Q&A, people go ballistic, call everyone bigots, and demand the conversation not be allowed to take place in the first place. Are you fucking kidding me?

Also contributing was discussion over a video game about girls learning to masturbate and people being offended that no one in the game had a dick... Are you fucking kidding me? This is a pure PC lexical complaint that is pure bullshit. It's just baffling.

And in the midst of this witch hunt, no one has stopped to think that even if you subscribe to the belief that a woman can be born inside a man's body and that that person ought to be called a "woman"—not a "transgender woman" even — but a woman, can you not understand how it might be considered inappropriate to the majority population to give girls a game about how to masturbate a penis? Honestly, the whole fucking thing sounds inappropriate to me regardless, but let's go off the assumption that a kids game about masturbation for educational purposes is an okay thing.

Was Gabe an asshole on Twitter? Yeah. Everyone admits it, even him. But fuck everyone who brought it to that point. This kind of shit is why you get drive-by "PC police" comments. It is out of control. It isn't even about disrespecting people, it's about striving so hard to be considered the same that it is offensive to be reminded that some people are in fact different.

Please take some time to educate yourself. I really don't have enough

 

[Schnozberry]

Twitter trash doesn't represent me anywhere, I don't give a fuck about what they say or claim. The people who set him off come off far worse than him in my eyes, because what they said was malicious and intended to tear him down as a person. Yes, I'm frankly offended if you think the trans community (and myself by extension) recognizes such people as our representatives and our leaders. There were cooler heads trying to talk to him through this, but do they get recognition or kudos? Seldom. Sometimes even zero.

I said they claimed to represent "the community" in their tweets, and then I lamented the fact that our society regularly endows self appointed leaders such as this as speaking for an entire cross section of people. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I think its terribly unfair that because we often think of people in terms of groups, that individual opinions are silenced.

 

[Brian Griffin]

We are known to make huge deals out of stupid shit? Who gives a fuck what he thinks? It's a free country and people can be who they think they are but noooooooo, lets just blow everything out of proportion and not focus on the real issues we have in this land.

People care about what he thinks because he is a large public figure in the gaming sphere. His opinions effect a lot of people and the entire PA organization. He can absolutely say what he wants and feels but his words reach a lot of people and in this case and previous cases people have been hurt by his words. Now, you can tell people to not be so sensitive all you want but that does absolutely nothing to ease their hurt so it comes down to whether or not you are OK with hurting people with your words. If he had responded to this by stating that he was very sorry he hurt people and was actually humble about it then it's likely this shit storm wouldn't have happened. What he did instead was give excuses to try to justify his assholeness and assert that he didn't give a shit about trans people.

Trans people exist and if you have even a shred of empathy and respect for them as human beings you will heed their words when they ask you to not make them feel illegitimate. It's one of the most simple things to do and yet so many people have trouble with it.

 

[Sibylus]

I said they claimed to represent "the community" in their tweets, and then I lamented the fact that our society regularly endows self appointed leaders such as this as speaking for an entire cross section of people. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I think its terribly unfair that because we often think of people in terms of groups, that individual opinions are silenced.

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was agreeing with you, just an impersonal "you".

 

[The Technomancer]

Having read that apology he just posted...at this point what do people want?

 

[guek]

Great post.

Reading that second explanation, I'm more inclined to agree with Gabe than ever.

Him getting pissed off and lashing out is why this is being discussed right now, but this was instigated so ridiculously by the PC police and in some part by the transgender community that it's just mindboggling.

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

The only thing anyone should reasonably expect from another person is to be polite and to not be violent or oppressive. We tolerate people that are different than us and treat them how we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean we adopt their core belief system. And it doesn't mean you're a hateful piece of shit because you don't adopt their beliefs.

But people are demanding just that. Not only that, they demand that other views not even be discussed.

This whole thing started from a panel at PAX that was going to discuss whether the PC police were contributing anything to the community. And instead of going to the fucking panel, listening to what they actually had to say, and asking them important questions in the Q&A, people go ballistic, call everyone bigots, and demand the conversation not be allowed to take place in the first place. Are you fucking kidding me?

Also contributing was discussion over a video game about girls learning to masturbate and people being offended that no one in the game had a dick... Are you fucking kidding me? This is a pure PC lexical complaint that is pure bullshit. It's just baffling.

And in the midst of this witch hunt, no one has stopped to think that even if you subscribe to the belief that a woman can be born inside a man's body and that that person ought to be called a "woman"—not a "transgender woman" even — but a woman, can you not understand how it might be considered inappropriate to the majority population to give girls a game about how to masturbate a penis? Honestly, the whole fucking thing sounds inappropriate to me regardless, but let's go off the assumption that a kids game about masturbation for educational purposes is an okay thing.

Was Gabe an asshole on Twitter? Yeah. Everyone admits it, even him. But fuck everyone who brought it to that point. This kind of shit is why you get drive-by "PC police" comments. It is out of control. It isn't even about disrespecting people, it's about striving so hard to be considered the same that it is offensive to be reminded that some people are in fact different.

 

[marrec]

Having read that apology he just posted...at this point what do people want?

Me personally? Nothing, he is an ass and seemingly will always be one. I won't associate with his business efforts from here on out.

 

[Mudkips]

The PA guys are professional asshats, and it always amuses me to see them light themselves on fire like this.
Ridiculous kickstarters? I'll hate all day. Terrible drawing ability that has degraded over the past decade? I'll shit on his inability to draw hands and his obvious lack of effort. Pompous attitudes and giant egos? You better believe I've got a first class ticket for the hate train.
That said, I really can't join in on the hate parades when people attack them for simply saying things they find insensitive. They're morons for engaging in flame wars every single time, though, and I enjoy watching them flail.

Personally I wish we could find another suffix than -phobic, because I feel like it cheapens actual phobias that involve sheer terror.

I agree.
People today just append "phobia" to a word to label someone who dislikes something or simply disagrees with them. Phobias are actual fears or aversions, and the suffix should only be used when actual fear or aversion exists. It comes from the Greek "phobos".

Hate is handled by the prefix "mis", from the Greek "misos", as in misandry or misogyny.

If you want to label someone who disagrees with you on something, use "anti" (or "con"). If they agree with you, use "pro".

But language be damned, any politicized issue needs to have a good set of labels! It's why the same group can be called "pro-life" by one side and "anti-abortion" or "anti-choice" by the other. The politicization of language is almost as annoying as the use of "backronyms". And when the two combine (see every major politicized bill Congress trots out), it makes me want to bite people.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I was disappointed that you did not respond to my post to you that gave a very brief overview of some aspects of the biology of sexual identity. Keep in mind that most research is behind a paywall because it belongs to peer-reviewed journals.

Regardless, here is a review paper that discusses (in part) hormonal influences of sexual identity and development:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20724210

Sorry, must have missed that though I remember seeing another response from you. I'll be checking that out and getting back with that.

I posted this already but here it is again. Lots of great info there so read up!

Transgender Threads: A Primer

Missed that as well, but went through it now. Not exactly what I'm looking for, though it does have some links. The part that seems to relate most to this situation here is:

"Real" men and women.

Trans men are real men. Trans women are real women. To say otherwise is extremely offensive. This means that a homosexual trans women likes other women. It means that a straight trans man likes women, and it means there's no reason to joke about or question their relationships. Multiple studies have shown that trans women typically have brains more similar to those of cis women than cis men, and trans men typically have brains more similar to those of cis men than cis women. Their bodies may be anywhere on the spectrum, depending on where they are in transition, but when you're talking to a trans woman there's a woman behind the keyboard and when you're talking to a trans man there's a man behind the keyboard.

This does lead to semantic constructions and ideas that you might not be used to. For example, women can have penises. Men can have vaginas. You might read "his breasts" in a sentence about a trans man's top surgery. Please be respectful, and try to avoid any mean-spirited jokes.

...

"If the person has a penis, the person is a man. If the person has a vagina, the person is a woman."
Why: Science and medicine disagree with you, as does common courtesy. Furthermore, you open yourself up to all sorts of other circumstances, such as men who've lost their penises in accidents or certain intersex people. It's much simpler to take people at their gender expression and/or their word.

...

"Trans people have their beliefs and opinions, and I have mine."
Why: We aren't talking about beliefs and opinions. We're talking about medically-recognized problems that real people are going through. We're talking about scientific and medical consensus that trans people are who they say they are and feel what they say they feel. If you disagree, you disagree with established conclusions put together by teams of doctors and researchers more educated, experienced, and relevant than you and you should keep your view to yourself.

My questions on these points may admittedly be answered by the further information not provided in that post, but I noticed that none of the AMA text that article provides actually says that science and medicine disagree that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. What the text states is that they recognize GD as a real thing. This is not the AMA changing the medical definition of man or woman to now include, but recognizing a disorder in which people don't identify with their assigned gender, acknowledging that it is the body not matching the mind and not the other way around. We can read a medical and scientific revolution on gender into that... or we can't. I don't see it, because the there is still recognition of a physical disassociation from the mind, where as the "cis" members of that gender would not have this physical difference.

Moving from there, if the scientific and medical definitions of male and female do in fact still rely on physical characteristics—as what investigation into the matter I've been able to do as of right now seems to suggest—then what is wrong with making a semantic differentiation between a cis male and a transgender male?

It wouldn't be a comparative meaning, wouldn't imply being better or worse, but it would recognize physical differences which do in fact exist. I'm seeing a push for "sameness" of things that are similar or even identical in some ways, but still definitely different in other areas. This I don't understand and this is I believe the root of this particular mess. Semantics.

I get that people find it offensive to make the distinction. I don't get why, but I also don't see the benefits of introducing confusion into what is medically a very specific set of terminology? There's the argument that a person's genitals are no one's business, but this whole male/female distinction has historically involved an implicit understanding that we generally know what genitals a person has by looking at them, even if this differentiation is made by distinctly covering up said genitals. The idea that this type of protection is a given is something new to me and I'm wondering what the benefit of this protection is beyond avoiding harassment and actual bigotry and whether or not it would still be important in a perfect world where negative reactions wouldn't exist.

Anyway, moving onto the other article. Thanks again for the link and would appreciate discussion, which I'm going to try and keep related to the PA issues of this thread.

 

[RockTurtle]

I am glad we live in an age where technology allows the oppressed and the downtrodden to voice their views and not be denied their chances to be heard. to be understood.

it is a powerful weapon. But i think, as is human nature, sometimes we take things too far. Some of us have honest to goodness experiences that have made us defensive about many subjects. We understand, but when you start decrying everything as proof of discrimination against you, we go back to square one.

That's why when you have individuals with a vast podium like Kotaku, and one of their writers decides to share their own view as the definitive one, things go haywire. I mentioned the echo chamber before. This is so. Again, the internet provides a powerful weapon to be heard. but sometimes we go overboard. Like the joke during the KI presentation.

when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

 

[Mumei]

I posted this already but here it is again. Lots of great info there so read up!

Transgender Threads: A Primer

I just looked on Amazon and found this:

Only ~130 pages before the glossary / notes / etc.

 

[Chezzymann]

I honestly don't see why people are mad at him. He has a right to sate his viewpoint on this issue. From my perspective gender is purely a biological thing (Chromosomes) and has nothing to do with your gender identity, mindset, or sexuality. I'm perfectly fine with people feeling otherwise, though. Sure, having a transgender gender identity is a real disorder and I am perfectly tolerant with people doing whatever they want to make themselves happy but it doesn't actually "make" you a different gender from my viewpoint.

 

[kirby145]

So many people are salty about writers of a webcomic. Apparently stating opinions on twitter is too much for people to handle.

Can't we all go back to the days where noone gave a shit about what someone had for breakfast on Twitter? Where retweets were not mandatory?

 

[Kai Dracon]

Having read that apology he just posted...at this point what do people want?

The problem could be no matter how much he apologizes, "please understand" isn't sufficient to make people feel comfortable dealing with someone whom they have good reason to believe will keep doing the same thing over and over.

It may just take time and Mike interacting with people in a way that proves his mindset and behavior can evolve and he can grow up a little. I don't think there's a quick fix for anything here. Such is life.

If people pull out of PAX due to this, in order to send a message "this ongoing behavior isn't okay with us, and we want to go elsewhere", I would guess that is the inevitable result with Mike/PA making people uncomfortable for some time now. Action and reaction.

Past that, I think it some may be going overboard if they demand something more from Mike, because I'm not sure what he has to give. His actions seem born out of ignorance and being thickheaded rather than malice and intent to injure. Mike may not be the person to crucify for the sins of all true bigots everywhere, even if the kind of ignorance he has displayed is something which can contribute to bigotry in an abstract sense.

 

[Jintor]

Having read that apology he just posted...at this point what do people want?

Primarily, I'd just like it if this doesn't flare up again in a couple of months...

 

[IdiotMyshkin]

Sorry, must have missed that though I remember seeing another response from you. I'll be checking that out and getting back with that.


Missed that as well, but went through it now. Not exactly what I'm looking for, though it does have some links. The part that seems to relate most to this situation here is:

My questions on these points may admittedly be answered by the further information not provided in that post, but I noticed that none of the AMA text that article provides actually says that science and medicine disagree that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. What the text states is that they recognize GD as a real thing. This is not the AMA changing the medical definition of man or woman to now include, but recognizing a disorder in which people don't identify with their assigned gender, acknowledging that it is the body not matching the mind and not the other way around. We can read a medical and scientific revolution on gender into that... or we can't. I don't see it, because the there is still recognition of a physical disassociation from the mind, where as the "cis" members of that gender would not have this physical difference.

Moving from there, if the scientific and medical definitions of male and female do in fact still rely on physical characteristics—as what investigation into the matter I've been able to do as of right now seems to suggest—then what is wrong with making a semantic differentiation between a cis male and a transgender male?

It wouldn't be a comparative meaning, wouldn't imply being better or worse, but it would recognize physical differences which do in fact exist. I'm seeing a push for "sameness" of things that are similar or even identical in some ways, but still definitely different in other areas. This I don't understand and this is I believe the root of this particular mess. Semantics.

I get that people find it offensive to make the distinction. I don't get why, but I also don't see the benefits of introducing confusion into what is medically a very specific set of terminology? There's the argument that a person's genitals are no one's business, but this whole male/female distinction has historically involved an implicit understanding that we generally know what genitals a person has by looking at them, even if this differentiation is made by distinctly covering up said genitals. The idea that this type of protection is a given is something new to me and I'm wondering what the benefit of this protection is beyond avoiding harassment and actual bigotry and whether or not it would still be important in a perfect world where negative reactions wouldn't exist.

Anyway, moving onto the other article. Thanks again for the link and would appreciate discussion, which I'm going to try and keep related to the PA issues of this thread.

Essentially the reason trans people wanna just be considered a part of their gender one in the same is that people don't walk around with their genitals out. If you're not gonna have sex with or are the doctor of, it's really none of your damn business. As well as the fact that you're in no position to judhe someone elses gender physically, because, well that person sees themselves naked daily, how could you be a better judge?

Edit: thanks for looking into it btw.

 

[kirby145]

I honestly don't see why people are mad at him because from my perspective gender is purely a biological thing (Chromosomes) and has nothing to do with your gender identity, mindset, or sexuality. Sure, gender identity is a real disorder and I am perfectly tolerant with people doing whatever they want to make themselves happy but it doesn't actually "make" you a different gender from my viewpoint. That's like saying you can become a real dolphin because you got a dolphin brain surgically implanted into your head.

I took a class on this, where the teacher provided the opposing viewpoint based on biology, and said, this is incorrect/ we are not using this in our class.

There are plenty of arguments from the biology side, but rather than an open discussion you can often get what we have here in this Twitter rage. I am right, you are wrong. No compromises or research. (Not that it would fit in a tweet, but they wouldn't really be open to it anyway).

I think a lot of people have opinions on this, but based on this Neogaf thread a tweet stating your opinion is equivalent to hate. My opinion is that a lot of aspects of gender are really socially created and not very useful. People who are adamant and obsessed about their gender are kind falling victim to the social requirements placed. And of course plenty of it is biological. But don't let the twitter people hear that.

 

[Spongebob]

Reading that second explanation, I'm more inclined to agree with Gabe than ever.

Him getting pissed off and lashing out is why this is being discussed right now, but this was instigated so ridiculously by the PC police and in some part by the transgender community that it's just mindboggling.

He doesn't have to give a shit and study the intricacies of transgenderism. No one has to. And those who are interested aren't even necessarily assisted. Fuck, I've said several times in this thread that I would appreciate being led to some legitimate material on the subject and points other people are bringing up, and not one could be assed enough to bother linking any. They just keep motioning evasively at "research," which I'm sure exists but am not sure a lot of these ruffled feathers have ever read themselves or even know much about.

The only thing anyone should reasonably expect from another person is to be polite and to not be violent or oppressive. We tolerate people that are different than us and treat them how we would want to be treated. That doesn't mean we adopt their core belief system. And it doesn't mean you're a hateful piece of shit because you don't adopt their beliefs.

But people are demanding just that. Not only that, they demand that other views not even be discussed.

This whole thing started from a panel at PAX that was going to discuss whether the PC police were contributing anything to the community. And instead of going to the fucking panel, listening to what they actually had to say, and asking them important questions in the Q&A, people go ballistic, call everyone bigots, and demand the conversation not be allowed to take place in the first place. Are you fucking kidding me?

Also contributing was discussion over a video game about girls learning to masturbate and people being offended that no one in the game had a dick... Are you fucking kidding me? This is a pure PC lexical complaint that is pure bullshit. It's just baffling.

And in the midst of this witch hunt, no one has stopped to think that even if you subscribe to the belief that a woman can be born inside a man's body and that that person ought to be called a "woman"—not a "transgender woman" even — but a woman, can you not understand how it might be considered inappropriate to the majority population to give girls a game about how to masturbate a penis? Honestly, the whole fucking thing sounds inappropriate to me regardless, but let's go off the assumption that a kids game about masturbation for educational purposes is an okay thing.

Was Gabe an asshole on Twitter? Yeah. Everyone admits it, even him. But fuck everyone who brought it to that point. This kind of shit is why you get drive-by "PC police" comments. It is out of control. It isn't even about disrespecting people, it's about striving so hard to be considered the same that it is offensive to be reminded that some people are in fact different.

Excellent post.

 

[IdiotMyshkin]

I honestly don't see why people are mad at him. He has a right to sate his viewpoint on this issue. From my perspective gender is purely a biological thing (Chromosomes) and has nothing to do with your gender identity, mindset, or sexuality. I'm perfectly fine with people feeling otherwise, though. Sure, gender identity is a real disorder and I am perfectly tolerant with people doing whatever they want to make themselves happy but it doesn't actually "make" you a different gender from my viewpoint.

Sex and gender really aren't that hardline. There are plenty of people born with tons of estrogen, big boobies, and an even bigger dick. And vica versa and
both.

 

[flatearthpandas]

And in the end, no one learned anything, and people just got pissed off at eachother, including boycotts.

And I reiterate what I asked before: is THIS the way forward?

Well, I've certainly learned quite a bit today. I'm not sure what you're referencing as being the way forward? Twitter arguments? Gaf discussions? I would say neither of those are the way forward, but really the best way forward I can think of is a less aggressive cultural marxism. Being PC can be considered cultural marxism in some sense, but I think the best way to move forward is just to realistically introduce a wide variety of people into the lives of future generations from a young age and let them grow up understanding that everyone is people and physical characteristics or sexual preferences or identity don't determine whether a person is cool or an asshole.

I was disappointed that you did not respond to my post to you that gave a very brief overview of some aspects of the biology of sexual identity. Keep in mind that most research is behind a paywall because it belongs to peer-reviewed journals.

Regardless, here is a review paper that discusses (in part) hormonal influences of sexual identity and development:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20724210

Just finished reading it. Was an interesting paper to explain why some people may experience GD and how their brain chemistry can more closely resemble their identified gender rather than their assigned. I'm interested what other differences of the brain there are between males and females, how they come about, and how GD people relate to whatever those differences may be. Something for another thread or, more likely, another forum. Thanks for the link.

 

[rocketknight]

Essentially the reason trans people wanna just be considered a part of their gender one in the same is that people don't walk around with their genitals out. If you're not gonna have sex with or are the doctor of, it's really none of your damn business. As well as the fact that you're in no position to judhe someone elses gender physically, because, well that person sees themselves naked daily, how could you be a better judge?

Edit: thanks for looking into it btw.

Yes. Almost every time you're interacting with someone, you're interacting with their presented identified gender. People's genitals and chromosomes and stuff really aren't your business, whatever they are, so you probably shouldn't feel compelled to go around talking about other people's junk and what that "really" makes them. They know way more about their own junk and who they are than you do so I don't even know why you think they'd want to hear your opinion anyway.

 

[thumb]

Just finished reading it. Was an interesting paper to explain why some people may experience GD and how their brain chemistry can more closely resemble their identified gender rather than their assigned. I'm interested what other differences of the brain there are between males and females, how they come about, and how GD people relate to whatever those differences may be. Something for another thread or, more likely, another forum. Thanks for the link.

I'm glad you found it helpful. I like the paper because it summarizes many studies and uses minimal jargon in describing a complex and challenging topic.

 

[BillyBats]

This. I can't understand this at all. I feel like everyone is so freaking overly sensitive.

What does being offended really mean anymore? I was just talking to myself about this type of subject while driving to work the other day. I was thinking about what could offend me so much that I would have to write an article, call for an apology, or demand someone's job. I thought about a billboard with Hitler on it with a caption that said "Fuck all you!" Even then, I would just tell my wife and friends about it and say "You HAVE to see this fucking billboard, what nutcase put that up?" I guess I just have a thick skin or a thick head.

I can understand the offense by the transgender people here. But this doesn't seem to be an outright attack or boycott against a community. At worst, it seems to be just a bit ignorant. It doesn't seem like he deserves the rage (unless there was hostile shit that came out). I don't know, people are really quick to be offended these days. People on the internet remind me of cats that look nice and fluffy and when you go to pet them...BAM...the claws come out and scratch your hand. You never know when the next outrage will come from and how far it will go.

And I know this will get the "That doesn't excuse his ignorance." response but, these guys have raised a shit ton of money for charity. To dismiss all of this because the guy says "Women have vaginas." seems to greatly diminish all the work they have done for kids and charity.

 

[thumb]

What does being offended really mean anymore? I was just talking to myself about this type of subject while driving to work the other day. I was thinking about what could offend me so much that I would have to write an article, call for an apology, or demand someone's job. I thought about a billboard with Hitler on it with a caption that said "Fuck all you!" Even then, I would just tell my wife and friends about it and say "You HAVE to see this fucking billboard, what nutcase put that up?" I guess I just have a thick skin or a thick head.

I can understand the offense by the transgender people here. But this doesn't seem to be an outright attack or boycott against a community. At worst, it seems to be just a bit ignorant. It doesn't seem like he deserves the rage (unless there was hostile shit that came out). I don't know, people are really quick to be offended these days. People on the internet remind me of cats that look nice and fluffy and when you go to pet them...BAM...the claws come out and scratch your hand. You never know when the next outrage will come from and how far it will go.

And I know this will get the "That doesn't excuse his ignorance." response but, these guys have raised a shit ton of money for charity. To dismiss all of this because the guy says "Women have vaginas." seems to greatly diminish all the work they have done for kids and charity.

Who are you talking to? Many people had differing response levels and opinions on this. Not everyone was profoundly offended, and in many cases they had nuanced opinions that did not include the vilification of PA or Mike.

 

[Rayis]

Oh wow, this thread got fun, anyway, The guy's an asshole but at least apologized (even if it was half-assed apology, imo it still counts) and as a person who definitely has gender issues (don't know if I'd call myself trans yet but I'm very familiar with the community's plight) I'd ask of those who are not just to be a little understanding, the community gets very easily riled up cuz we live in a world of constant hostility, you're either a man or a woman based on what your genitals were at the time of birth and you can't veer away from that, it's just society's extremely rigid views on gender that makes it difficult or us. You don't have to change your views on what you think makes a woman/man but as long as you realize that your definition does not apply to everyone and exercise empathy and treat them with respect we're all cool (to both sides). Also, yes, most of us are also aware of our biological sex, we're not deluded.


Anyway, I didn't add anything that hasn't been said already so, carry on~.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I honestly don't see why people are mad at him. He has a right to sate his viewpoint on this issue. From my perspective gender is purely a biological thing (Chromosomes) and has nothing to do with your gender identity, mindset, or sexuality. I'm perfectly fine with people feeling otherwise, though. Sure, having a transgender gender identity is a real disorder and I am perfectly tolerant with people doing whatever they want to make themselves happy but it doesn't actually "make" you a different gender from my viewpoint.

For the same reason that people who care about trans people will probably be mad at you for this post. Saying you are "perfectly tolerant" of trans people and then claiming that you don't acknowledge their gender identity are opposing statements. You can have the viewpoint that trans men/woman are not "real" men/women but telling everyone about it just hurts people's feelings so why voice it? What does holding on to that viewpoint actually do for you anyway?

 

[bj00rn_]

This political correct bullshit has gotten way out of hand. I weep for our future.

Thank g..(sorry..)..So nice to see I'm not the only one thinking that. It is the most annoying and paralyzing plague western society have seen in recent history.

 

[Sibylus]

Thank g..(sorry..)..So nice to see I'm not the only one thinking that. It is the most annoying and paralyzing plague western society have seen in recent history.

I agree, the 1918 Flu was mostly hyperbole

 

[Dr.Thunder]

Seems I am very similar to Mike. Not as far as how he says stupid things from time to time but with how we deal with them. Whenever I used to feel threatened or be confronted I would become a huge asshole and say things I didn't even believe with the sole purpose of tearing somebody down. I would then feel really low about it. Low to the point of inflicting self injury upon myself. I would hate myself. I don't hurt myself anymore but I can still find myself slipping into my hurtful persona from time to time. The worst of it is there is no possible way to make amends for some of the thing I said in those times.

People would ask me to change myself. Why can I just not do those things? I didn't know the answers. The hardest thing I had to do was "try" to change myself. Without fully succeeding.

Lucky though I have no problem keeping a cool head on the internet. Whenever something makes me mad in a public space I normally just time up the response then delete them.

This isn't meant to defend Mike in any way. I was just identifying with his problem.

Another problem I have is the ability to properly vocalize myself. I often have a hard time saying what I mean in a way people understand.

 

[Surreal]

Woah, this topic exploded.

I think the most important thing I've learned is just that we should be nicer to each other. If you have a problem, try to educate. If they listen, that's great. If they don't, that doesn't make them a bad person either. Maybe they're misguided but we can't expect everyone to be fair, impartial, and understanding about every issue. These aren't necessarily bad people. They could do a lot for the community, have a loving family, and truly care about other and we can't just summarize them as a horrible human beings if they don't specifically empathize with your struggle. IMO, the rhetoric we casually use to describe one another has become too charged.

We as humans care most about the issues that affect us personally. So while if you are trans, you might label someone else has a horrible human being for being insensitive to your issues someone else might label you a horrible human being for not taking a stronger stance on human rights violations occurring in China. The point is we all have aspects of us that make us "horrible human beings". Simply existing in a first-world country means you are taking advantage of the systematic rape of third-world labor and resources. Does name calling help the issue? It's really hard to change one's lifestyle and beliefs, and I think those who are fighting their fights need to be more understanding of that.

Also, I think it's important to remember that the definition of a bigot is simply, "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion." So while you are trying to educate people about your beliefs, keep an open mind and try not to become a bigot yourself. Even science and medical evidence are in flux, so try not to get too tied up in spreading the truth when truth is generally relative to what we know so far. Most importantly, remember that there are likely good people behind every offensive comment and giving someone the benefit of the doubt won't kill you.

 

[rocketknight]

Woah, this topic exploded.

I think the most important thing I've learned is just that we should be nicer to each other. If you have a problem, try to educate. If they listen, that's great. If they don't, that doesn't make them a bad person either. Maybe they're misguided but we can't expect everyone to be fair, impartial, and understanding about every issue. These aren't necessarily bad people. They could do a lot for the community, have a loving family, and truly care about other and we can't just summarize them as a horrible human beings if they don't specifically empathize with your struggle. IMO, the rhetoric we casually use to describe one another has become too charged.

We as humans care most about the issues that affect us personally. So while if you are trans, you might label someone else has a horrible human being for being insensitive to your issues someone else might label you a horrible human being for not taking a stronger stance on human rights violations occurring in China. The point is we all have aspects of us that make us "horrible human beings". Simply existing in a first-world country means you are taking advantage of the systematic rape of third-world labor and resources. Does name calling help the issue? It's really hard to change one's lifestyle and beliefs, and I think those who are fighting their fights need to be more understanding of that.

Also, I think it's important to remember that the definition of a bigot is simply, "a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion." So while you are trying to educate people about your beliefs, keep an open mind and try not to become a bigot yourself. Even science and medical evidence are in flux, so try not to get too tied up in spreading the truth when truth is generally relative to what we know so far. Most importantly, remember that there are likely good people behind every offensive comment and giving someone the benefit of the doubt won't kill you.

Eh. Imagine the reaction if Gabe had said something like "I personally believe marriage is between one man and one woman, sue me. I don't think that's crazy. You can do whatever you want but I don't believe two men or two women can be married." And then people went around citing dictionaries and reproduction and stuff as valid reasons for that view. It would be huge, right? The LGB are a little ahead of the T here, but the same kind of things are going on, except worse: instead of just denying someone's right to do something (like get married), it's denying someone's existence. It's getting better, and will continue to get better, but it's disheartening to see stuff like this happening to people I care deeply about.

 

[Dacon]

Seems a bit overblown.

How I feel about all this personally amounts to this, men have penii and women have vagoo, every now and then due to some kind of complications or whatever it is that causes it, a person is born with a male body, but the mind and sensibilities of a female, and vice versa. This puts that person in an incredibly unfortunate place in life and society, where reconciling the differences in mind and body takes more than just a simple glance in the mirror.

While I personally believe that I cannot ignore the physicality of things, I don't intentionally wish to hurt anyone's feelings, so I would be willing to call a person whatever they choose, regardless of how I personally feel, to a point( I'm not going to call you a fucking dragon). Trans issues raise up a lot of social complications and problems for different people, and there isn't a simple solution to all of them.

My approach is, if I don't get along with a certain group of people, or I cannot ameliorate whatever differences there are between us, I decide to leave them be. I think that's the best thing people can do, don't demand people feel the same as you, don't berate them for being different, and don't ostracize people for their opinions.

A lot of the time, (outside of the internet anyway) I see that it isn't even these minority groups going well out of their way to force themselves into people's lives and force them to feel the same way as them.
In fact it's often the other way around, and that prompts these minorities to form these groups to go out and fight against these external attacks. Some people get too zealous in their efforts and many people in the majority see this as an attack on them, without realising this wouldn't even be happening in the first place if they left these people alone.
This bizarre desire that people have to validate their own feelings through oppression of other people's lifestyles will never cease to perplex me. Someone's else's life experience being different from yours doesn't invalidate yours. Why is it so important what other people do with their lives? Whether it's who they fuck or what they call themselves, how much does it affect you if you don't let it?

There will always be people out there who hate and discriminate, who embrace ignorance cause it makes them feel better. That's not to say that we shouldn't fight against these things, but I feel like unless a person is being outwardly threatening, violent, or supporting of violence then I think it's pointless to have all of these ridiculous arguments and flame wars that ultimately achieving nothing other than seeding resentments even deeper.

Idk, I feel like instead of all these different and diverse groups rallying against each other's beliefs, they should just ignore each other and go and live their lives. If it's so important to be surrounded by other people that feel the same as you it's pretty easy to find other people who feel the same way as you thanks to technology. Problems only ever seem too arise when folks start DEMANDING other people share their beliefs and opinions.

I feel like everything that should have happened here, did. The guy was told "Hey, you're being kind of an insensitive dick, I'm not saying you should feel the same way I do, but you shouldnt flaunt your opinion in such an insulting and abrasive manner, as you might hurt someone's feelings unintentionally" that was the gist of the message imo anyway.

I don't believe anyone has a right to any kind of treatment by anyone, and no one has an obligation to cater to anyone's feelings, but being a bit nicer here and there is an easy way to avoid drama and complication. Especially if youre a prominent public figure. If you feel strongly enough about a particular subject that you need to express your opinion you should do it respectfully and as maturely as possible if your aim ISNT generating drama. In my opinion anyway( on that point I probably shouldnt have posted at all lol).

 

[flatearthpandas]

Essentially the reason trans people wanna just be considered a part of their gender one in the same is that people don't walk around with their genitals out. If you're not gonna have sex with or are the doctor of, it's really none of your damn business. As well as the fact that you're in no position to judhe someone elses gender physically, because, well that person sees themselves naked daily, how could you be a better judge?

Edit: thanks for looking into it btw.

Yes. Almost every time you're interacting with someone, you're interacting with their presented identified gender. People's genitals and chromosomes and stuff really aren't your business, whatever they are, so you probably shouldn't feel compelled to go around talking about other people's junk and what that "really" makes them. They know way more about their own junk and who they are than you do so I don't even know why you think they'd want to hear your opinion anyway.

Whether I like it or not, you could look at me and know in your mind's eye what my genitalia are and think whatever you want about that fact. So whether it is anyone's business or not, people know this about me and I know it about the vast majority of people I see. This genitalia business is really a protected or privacy issue until you put it into the context of transgender individuals.

This has been an excruciatingly difficult post to write. Where I started at was that if, in all other respects, a trans woman was considered the same as a CIS woman, but needed to be referred to as "a trans woman" instead of a "woman" when the topic of the conversation was genitalia, why would that be so bad? 99.9% of the population can have their genitals surmised at one fully clothed glance, so why would it be so bad for a trans person to have their genitals surmised by a term used specifically to differentiate between genitals in a gender?

I can see the argument that may be put forth to answer the question though. My assumption is that argument might go: "Woman" or gender references implying woman are to specify the brain chemistry, etc. that identify as women while there are two new terms created by the community, trans and cis women, meant to differentiate birth genitalia. The idea being to remove "woman" from its medical definition and put a more complicated definition on it, while leaving "CIS" to occupy the vacant spot. I understand this.

But I also see that the term "woman" has a medical and historical definition that goes back a long way. It is going to be much harder to change that definition that it would be to just accept the distinction between "woman" and "transgender woman" when genitalia legitimately enters the discussion. Ultimately, the distinction has to be made in some way, and the way the community has chosen is by fundamentally altering one definition. I can see the fight being successful given a long enough period of time, especially with the threatening, branding, and ostracization of people who don't subscribe to the new vocabulary whether intentionally or ignorantly (used in the non-offensive sense), but I question the necessity and value of the fight. Mostly, as in all semantic wars, I would really just like to see all parties get along, without letting sounds and marks that we make obfuscate ideas and hearts that are all on the the same side, more or less.

 

[rocketknight]

Whether I like it or not, you could look at me and know in your mind's eye what my genitalia are and think whatever you want about that fact. So whether it is anyone's business or not, people know this about me and I know it about the vast majority of people I see. This genitalia business is really a protected or privacy issue until you put it into the context of transgender individuals.

I don't know anything about anybody's genitals until I've seen them or they've told me. I don't know if you have a penis or how long it is or if you're circumcised or anything. And I don't need to know. If you're presenting as a guy and tell me you're a guy you're a guy - why would I need to know anything else to sell you a hotdog or play Risk with you or give you directions on the street?

This has been an excruciatingly difficult post to write. Where I started at was that if, in all other respects, a trans woman was considered the same as a CIS woman, but needed to be referred to as "a trans woman" instead of a "woman" when the topic of the conversation was genitalia, why would that be so bad? 99.9% of the population can have their genitals surmised at one fully clothed glance, so why would it be so bad for a trans person to have their genitals surmised by a term used specifically to differentiate between genitals in a gender?

Do you always have to call blind women blind women? Do you always have to call disabled men disabled men? Do you always have to call a black man a black man? These things are just adjectives. The noun presents the core identity, which is what matters. There are also safety concerns for trans people that come from insisting everybody knows they're trans all the time - they're subject to a horrific amount of violence just for existing and singling them out like that (for no good reason) can put them at risk.

I can see the argument that may be put forth to answer the question though. My assumption is that argument might go: "Woman" or gender references implying woman are to specify the brain chemistry, etc. that identify as women while there are two new terms created by the community, trans and cis women, meant to differentiate birth genitalia. The idea being to remove "woman" from its medical definition and put a more complicated definition on it, while leaving "CIS" to occupy the vacant spot. I understand this.

But I also see that the term "woman" has a medical and historical definition that goes back a long way. It is going to be much harder to change that definition that it would be to just accept the distinction between "woman" and "transgender woman" when genitalia legitimately enters the discussion. Ultimately, the distinction has to be made in some way, and the way the community has chosen is by fundamentally altering one definition. I can see the fight being successful given a long enough period of time, especially with the threatening, branding, and ostracization of people who don't subscribe to the new vocabulary whether intentionally or ignorantly (used in the non-offensive sense), but I question the necessity and value of the fight. Mostly, as in all semantic wars, I would really just like to see all parties get along, without letting sounds and marks that we make obfuscate ideas and hearts that are all on the the same side, more or less.

For trans people this isn't semantic at all - it's personal. And I really disagree that "the distinction has to be made" between trans women and cis women - why does it have to be made?

 

[IdiotMyshkin]

Whether I like it or not, you could look at me and know in your mind's eye what my genitalia are and think whatever you want about that fact. So whether it is anyone's business or not, people know this about me and I know it about the vast majority of people I see. This genitalia business is really a protected or privacy issue until you put it into the context of transgender individuals.

This has been an excruciatingly difficult post to write. Where I started at was that if, in all other respects, a trans woman was considered the same as a CIS woman, but needed to be referred to as "a trans woman" instead of a "woman" when the topic of the conversation was genitalia, why would that be so bad? 99.9% of the population can have their genitals surmised at one fully clothed glance, so why would it be so bad for a trans person to have their genitals surmised by a term used specifically to differentiate between genitals in a gender?

I can see the argument that may be put forth to answer the question though. My assumption is that argument might go: "Woman" or gender references implying woman are to specify the brain chemistry, etc. that identify as women while there are two new terms created by the community, trans and cis women, meant to differentiate birth genitalia. The idea being to remove "woman" from its medical definition and put a more complicated definition on it, while leaving "CIS" to occupy the vacant spot. I understand this.

But I also see that the term "woman" has a medical and historical definition that goes back a long way. It is going to be much harder to change that definition that it would be to just accept the distinction between "woman" and "transgender woman" when genitalia legitimately enters the discussion. Ultimately, the distinction has to be made in some way, and the way the community has chosen is by fundamentally altering one definition. I can see the fight being successful given a long enough period of time, especially with the threatening, branding, and ostracization of people who don't subscribe to the new vocabulary whether intentionally or ignorantly (used in the non-offensive sense), but I question the necessity and value of the fight. Mostly, as in all semantic wars, I would really just like to see all parties get along, without letting sounds and marks that we make obfuscate ideas and hearts that are all on the the same side, more or less.

Still on the phone, but, if I saw a wart on your foot and insisted on insisting that you are toad-man, and not a REAL man (assuming you're a male, idfk) it'd be pretty fucking rude, eh?

 

[Kumouri]

How can people suggest that there are no "PC warriors" after reading this thread? I mean come on.

Gabe's allowed to have his opinion. Believe it or not, just because the minority, transgendered people, believes that the words "man" and "woman" refer to the social construct of gender identity rather than the biological construct of sexual identity does NOT mean they are "right." Just because the majority, cisgendered, doesn't want the meaning of their words to change does NOT mean they are wrong.

Political correctness really IS an issue. It happens every time there is a disagreement between a majority and a minority. Because the minority usually tend to being in a position of more comfort, it's seen as OFFENSIVE to disagree.

No, I don't think anyone believes that there are pitchfork-wielding people whose sole mission is to find and stop people for using "politically incorrect" terms. The problem is that there's very few people who find everything offensive, but in this world, we tend to hear opinions from everyone who IS offended. It's just that, when their legitimate opinions are bashed, criticized, and made fun of, sometimes even punished, they tend to get tired of it.

You CAN'T argue that "political correctness" isn't an issue. It's blatantly obvious even here on GAF. People are routinely punished in General for posting in a trans-centered topic with a "politically incorrect" opinion, getting jumped on by 20 or 30 people, trying to defend themselves, getting ill-tempered from having so many people bash them, and saying things they shouldn't. At one point, it was almost impossible to hold a legitimate discussion in General about trans because you'd just get a pile of people quoting you going "here we go again," or "LOL this guy," while the minority, the actual trans-people here on GAF, were legitimately slinging insults around and not even getting reprimanded.

I have to give it to GAF for cleaning up the act a LOT on the topic, now, but it was just an example of the politically-correct climate.

Did this guy just get banned for expressing his opinion on the issue and complimenting GAF on being accepting of those opinions?

 

[Surreal]

Eh. Imagine the reaction if Gabe had said something like "I personally believe marriage is between one man and one woman, sue me. I don't think that's crazy. You can do whatever you want but I don't believe two men or two women can be married." And then people went around citing dictionaries and reproduction and stuff as valid reasons for that view. It would be huge, right? The LGB are a little ahead of the T here, but the same kind of things are going on, except worse: instead of just denying someone's right to do something (like get married), it's denying someone's existence. It's getting better, and will continue to get better, but it's disheartening to see stuff like this happening to people I care deeply about.

It would be huge because the issue has had a lot of time and attention in the public space, but that doesn't mean he's a horrible person. He's probably done more charity work than this entire message board combined. He's brought together countless people with PAX and provided a venture that celebrates indie devs and gaming in general. He probably has kids and tries to be a good father. But because he's stubborn on a single social issue that makes him a horrible person? Let's be fair here.

Another thing I'd like to note is the expectation that someone should be able to "learn" in the span of a day. How many times have you learned something and then successfully integrated it into your world view within 24 hours? True understanding/empathy is only achieved when your feelings and your mind align, it's simply a difficult thing to do in a short amount of time especially with an issue as detailed as this. From what I can see he is taking steps in the right direction and that's the most we can reasonably ask from him. He opted to put out an letter written by him detailing his thoughts instead of a stock PR apology and it's clear he's trying to reconcile what he feels and what he's been told. It takes time.

In the meantime, you know what's more useful that bashing him for not understanding the issue completely or getting it 100%? Thanking him for taking the effort to change. I promise you that'll do more good and inspire him to delve deeper into the issue more than any amount of hate mail will.

 

[lexi]

In the meantime, you know what's more useful that bashing him for not understanding the issue completely or getting it 100%? Thanking him for taking the effort to change. I promise you that'll do more good and inspire him to delve deeper into the issue more than any amount of hate mail will.

He's made no effort to change, and in the latest 'apology' openly admits he doesn't plan to. He resolves to simply keep his mouth shut, which is awesome -- except he said the exact same thing 2 weeks ago.

 

[faceless007]

Re-posting from the Fullbright thread, this is a really good editorial about this mess. It's worth reading in full.

So to Mike Krahulik I say this:

I understand freedom of speech is important to you. It’s important to me too. But speech has consequences. Speech has responsibility. When you start saying things that alienate people, they will walk away. This isn’t because they want to shut you up, it’s because they don’t want to hear what you have to say.

That would be fine if you were simply toiling away on a webcomic. Then you could fade away to semi-obscurity like Tim Buckley’s Control-Alt-Delete; serving a core of dedicated fans and not really bothering the wider world. No one would have to read it.

But you aren’t just an artist anymore. Like it or not, you’re a leader.

Everything you do is tied to the Penny Arcade brand, which includes both the Penny Arcade Expo and the Child’s Play charity. PAX is a great grassroots endeavour, something that is important and increasingly essential to games culture.
...
I understand this isn’t easy. I understand that it’s hard to change your mind on something after you dig in.

But it can be done. And frankly, your reasons aren’t significant in the grand scheme of things.

So please, be bigger than this. Because this is bigger than you.

 

[thumb]

He's made no effort to change, and in the latest 'apology' openly admits he doesn't plan to. He resolves to simply keep his mouth shut, which is awesome -- except he said the exact same thing 2 weeks ago.

Agreed, his apology does appear problematic. I'm hoping that time will allow some of this stuff to sink in more. Consider Jim Sterling, who did a very public about-face after saying some mysogynistic things, and later encouraged discussion about women's representation in games.

 

[Zoc]

I was disappointed that you did not respond to my post to you that gave a very brief overview of some aspects of the biology of sexual identity. Keep in mind that most research is behind a paywall because it belongs to peer-reviewed journals.

Regardless, here is a review paper that discusses (in part) hormonal influences of sexual identity and development:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20724210

It seems like this is what it boils down to: there is now scientific evidence, endorsed by the AMA, indicating that transgendered women have "female" brains. If that's the case, then it is indeed inaccurate for Gabe or anyone to say "women have vaginas." End of story. Furthermore, I wouldn't hold it against anyone to take the conclusions of the papers presenting that evidence at face value.

But.... I have issues with those of conclusions. Transgenderism aside, the difference, if any, in male and female minds is a controversial field, to put it mildly. These papers have reported on an anatomical brain difference among various populations of subjects, and drawn conclusions that fall outside the domain of anatomy, into those of psychology and even philosophy. The connection between the brain and psychology is not simple, and it may not be correct to say "born women have a small hypothalamus, born men have a large one, trans women have one the same size as born women, therefore trans women have female minds trapped in male bodies." It's similar to the argument about women's IQ and brain size from last decade. In short, while these conclusions may indeed turn out to be accurate, they may not. Their implications are certainly not well understood either way. They are debatable, and they are, in fact, the subject of vigorous ongoing debate between academics.

This means that no one can say they have "the facts" about transgenderism, and no one can say anyone else is "ignorant." These are just ways of dismissing critics without listening to them. "I have my beliefs, and you have yours" may not quite be the way to put it, but there is a debate on the biological basis of transgenderism, and if you join it either way, you should have respect for the other side. Furthermore, the existence of a debate does not, I repeat, does not, invalidate your existence. We are all trying to understand our mutual human existence.

Gabe joined the debate and was flippant and disrespectful. The other side just told him he was an idiot and wrong without even thinking twice. Neither of these are productive strategies.

 

[rohlfinator]

The other side just told him he was an idiot and wrong without even thinking twice.

Sure, if you ignore the dozens of people who responded calmly and respectfully.

Which to be fair was easy to do, since Mike never acknowledged them either.

 

[Zoc]

Sure, if you ignore the dozens of people who responded calmly and respectfully.

Which to be fair was easy to do, since Mike never acknowledged them either.

That's true, reasonable people always get drowned out, I don't want to be guilty of ignoring them. I don't want to be lumped in with him just because I kind of get where he's coming from.

 

[Gokurakumaru]

Well, we can put this to rest right now, I think. If you don't think that psychology and a person's mind has anything to do with their gender, you are what we call "ignorant". Unfortunately, "bigoted" tends to fall out of "ignorant", even when the person has the absolute best, rosiest intentions that they are sure are just chock full of love for humanity. But maybe not in a particularly "offensive" way, so you're still good there!

And if you're lucky, someone would then extend an olive branch and try to educate you on the subject, and inform you that your gut feelings do not trump decades of expert study by people who have made this sort of thing their life's work.
See, where "offensive" comes in is when someone comes to you in good faith, hoping that you are a reasonable, logical little guy whose ego won't get in the way of his self-improvement. Because if you see all that, and your only argument is "Nah, that doesn't seem right to me; I'm going with my gut on this one."... Well, that's when you turn pretty actively "offensive", no matter how much of a stand-up guy you think you are.

This is all speaking hypothetically, of course.

Decades of human study do not trump a thousand years of the English language and millennia of reproductive imperatives that state males have XY chromosomes and females have XX. You can use whatever pronoun you wish, but the distinction is important because the majority of people out there will never choose to enter into a relationship with a person who doesn't meet the dictionary definition. Even some people in the LGBT "community." Their valuing that distinction does not make them ignorant, uneducated or bigoted, no matter how many times you say it. I'll happily be your friend, colleague or confidante, but I'm not going to pretend the differences aren't real.

Transgendered people want to be accepted, not ridiculed, dismissed, or thought of as weirdos. When the popular sentiment is "those people can call themselves whatever the hell they want, but they're wrong," politely agreeing to disagree isn't going to lead to progress. Sure, that doesn't mean you have to relentlessly antagonize them as hateful bigots, but it is necessary to challenge the status quo.

The use of an inflammatory word like "weirdo" not withstanding, transgendered people need to accept that they are "different" and people will always treat them in situations where biology or the presumption of gender matters. Relationships, unisex areas, legal documents such as passports, etc.

 

[Risette]

Decades of human study do not trump a thousand years of the English language and millennia of reproductive imperatives that state males have XY chromosomes and females have XX. You can use whatever pronoun you wish, but the distinction is important because the majority of people out there will never choose to enter into a relationship with a person who doesn't meet the dictionary definition. Even some people in the LGBT "community." Their valuing that distinction does not make them ignorant, uneducated or bigoted, no matter how many times you say it. I'll happily be your friend, colleague or confidante, but I'm not going to pretend the differences aren't real.



The use of an inflammatory word like "weirdo" not withstanding, transgendered people need to accept that they are "different" and people will always treat them in situations where biology or the presumption of gender matters. Relationships, unisex areas, legal documents such as passports, etc.

Chromosomes aren't that simple. You're leaning on pseudoscience. To elucidate, here are some common chromosomal variations:

48,XXYY syndrome (1 in 18-50,000)
XXX syndrome (1 in 1,000)
46,XX males (1 in 20,000)
XYY syndrome (1 in 1,000)
Klinefelter's syndrome (47,XXY, 48,XXXY or 49,XXXXY) (1-500 / 1-50,000 depending on variant)
Turner's syndrome (45,X) (1 in 2,500)

 

[Gokurakumaru]

Chromosomes aren't that simple. You're leaning on pseudoscience. To elucidate, here are some common chromosomal variations:

48,XXYY syndrome (1 in 18-50,000)
XXX syndrome (1 in 1,000)
46,XX males (1 in 20,000)
XYY syndrome (1 in 1,000)
Klinefelter's syndrome (47,XXY, 48,XXXY or 49,XXXXY) (1-500 / 1-50,000 depending on variant)
Turner's syndrome (45,X) (1 in 2,500)

I keep seeing the word syndrome there. Mutations happen.