ChewyTechnology
Banned
Slowly but surely M$ is listening to all the negative feedback from their greedy policies.
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MS confirms indie program for XB1, was a big GamesCom surprise, angry at GI for leak
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
How is this the same? MS is adding awesome stuff to the console, where Sony and the ps3 took it away. :/
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
I wish people looked at it that way though. Everything up to this point is MS going back on everything they wanted and to me, i have no trust. Its like they are saying "Give them what they want now, tell them a BS story about how we always was doing this, then after we will sweep it right under their noses once they've forgotten."
I just don't like that feeling. Some people are cool with being lied to and misinformed that many times but seriously its almost pathological and I'm not with it.
A logical person understands that the things they removed from the PS3 were removed to keep the PS3 from turning into the warez playground that the PSP was. If removing Linux and pissing off like 3% of PS3 owners in the process kept them from losing millions to pirates, I think from a business perspective, probably a pretty good idea.
MS is heading in the right direction, most developers and people in general will acknowledge that. They have a steep hill to climb and lots of bridges to rebuild, tho. Only time will tell if they're willing to make that effort for the long haul.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
i feel like there's some sort of weird sadistic abuse that Microsoft is doing to itself with "waiting" for an announcement like this. GI did them a favor.
This shouldn't have been a "surprise" for GamesCom. It should have been announced as soon as the decision was made. In the mean time they are getting indie developers shitting on them like that Lanning guy and other developers saying how they suck a lot because of their policies etc etc etc.
Why aren't they stopping that stuff as soon as they can? Why are they letting it happen when they can stop it? If its not one issue, its another with this box and it seems like it comes down to incompetence in the messaging and they still haven't got the right idea here.
They're doing it to themselves. This shouldn't have been "the" surprise for GamesCom. Its a crappy surprise and ultimately not very interesting, other than the "every box is a debug-unit" thing, since it is very samey to another company who was supportive of indies on the outset.
This shouldn't have been a "surprise" for GamesCom. It should have been announced as soon as the decision was made. In the mean time they are getting indie developers shitting on them like that Lanning guy and other developers saying how they suck a lot because of their policies etc etc etc.
Why aren't they stopping that stuff as soon as they can? Why are they letting it happen when they can stop it? If its not one issue, its another with this box and it seems like it comes down to incompetence in the messaging and they still haven't got the right idea here.
They're doing it to themselves. This shouldn't have been "the" surprise for GamesCom. Its a crappy surprise and ultimately not very interesting, other than the "every box is a debug-unit" thing, since it is very samey to another company who was supportive of indies on the outset.
LukasTaves
Member
Apparently, there are no longer patches or certification fees, and the whole process now takes 14 days.
charlequin
Banned
It's excellent that Microsoft have reversed themselves on this, although as we saw last generation, an early lead in the indie DD market can be hard to dislodge after a late entry.
It is seriously unsupportable to believe this particular policy was something that was always planned rather than a reactionary response to external events. They were telling devs this wasn't true just months ago. They won't have it at launch because they need to finish building it.
Microsoft burned pretty much all the goodwill they'd built up over the first few years of the generation with terrible, misguided XBLA/XBIG policies. I can't even list every game whose developer has come out publicly against MS after working on XBLA -- most of the ones that come immediately to mind (N+, Super Meat Boy, Fez, etc.) aren't even quoted in the article upthread.
Right. The negative impressions that the DRM and indie policies fomented aren't as easy to reverse as the policies that created them.
It is seriously unsupportable to believe this particular policy was something that was always planned rather than a reactionary response to external events. They were telling devs this wasn't true just months ago. They won't have it at launch because they need to finish building it.
Microsoft burned pretty much all the goodwill they'd built up over the first few years of the generation with terrible, misguided XBLA/XBIG policies. I can't even list every game whose developer has come out publicly against MS after working on XBLA -- most of the ones that come immediately to mind (N+, Super Meat Boy, Fez, etc.) aren't even quoted in the article upthread.
Right. The negative impressions that the DRM and indie policies fomented aren't as easy to reverse as the policies that created them.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
So, I can just buy an Xbone, program my own game (using XNA?) and play it on my Xbone without cost or restrictions (disregarding the 3 Gig thing, I'm perfectly fine with getting N64 quality with better framerate out of it, I'm not that experienced nor ambitioned in regards to tech, I'd be super happy to get a 3D platformer running)?
Microsoft's fault for assigning points to achievements in the first place. They should be treated just like every other service does.. they're just there.
You have to be unbelievably naive or jaded to really believe Microsoft had this planned all along. Not available at launch implies it's a late reverse around, and add to that, we're expected to believe they just intentionally waited till after E3 to announce this after all the fanfare, losing a shit tonne of indie support to Sony and gaining a large sum of negative press. Lol.
It's good that they've partially reversed course (I say partially because of the 3GB limit), but damn if this doesn't just further cement Sony as the one that genuinely is for gamers and developers this gen. When Microsoft continually pander on about how the XO was always a console for gamers built by gamers I have to laugh. Based on everything leading up to now, it seems the exact opposite.
It's good that they've partially reversed course (I say partially because of the 3GB limit), but damn if this doesn't just further cement Sony as the one that genuinely is for gamers and developers this gen. When Microsoft continually pander on about how the XO was always a console for gamers built by gamers I have to laugh. Based on everything leading up to now, it seems the exact opposite.
And what could they do to make you not feel that way? You would probably still be suspicious no matter what they say or how they said it. The best thing Microsoft can do is present their vision and policies, that the gaming community wants, and actually do it.
I don't care if these moves make the Xbone an objectively better console, I'm tired of Microsoft's shit. None of their exclusive games have interested me for years, so I probably wasn't going to buy one anyway, but now I won't do it based on principle.
I like how they were planning this announcement as a surprise for GamesCom with the expectation that everyone was going to give them a big old pat on the back. Such hubris.
I like how they were planning this announcement as a surprise for GamesCom with the expectation that everyone was going to give them a big old pat on the back. Such hubris.
Although these changes are great and MS seem to be seeing some sense, i would still loved to see the system launch without the 180 turn and these policy changes. Would have been great fun to watch the market react and teach MS a lesson post the system being out there.
It seems they are constantly avoiding one ice-berg after the other with their titanic.
It seems they are constantly avoiding one ice-berg after the other with their titanic.
No reason why he should need to be able to be influenced by anything Microsoft does at this point, it's all reactionary.
There is no vision at Microsoft anymore, that vision came and left with the always-online DRM.
They've just stated that this won't be happening, and I actually do believe them on this. I don't think people are as vocal about the Kinect stuff as they were on the indie(developers) and DRM stuff. I'd actually say there's a significant amount of people buying the Xbox One because of Kinect 2.0. It is the main differentiator between PS4 and X1. Without it (assuming it'll be priced at $400) you're just buying a weaker PS4 with some exclusives for the same price. What I'd actually like to see is Microsoft take a loss or reduce their profit, and match the PS4's price.
Syphon Filter
Member
arent all the visionaries gone? robbie,allard,etc.
Once again a potentially interesting spectacle is ruined by an external source. I really wanted to see what would have happened had MS released the console with all the crazy DRM, but that was ruined by informed consumers. I would have loved to see MS go up on stage at Gamescom and announce this thinking that they would get some sort of pat on the back, but GI had to go and ruin it.
I only can only hope that nothing causes MS to remove the Kinect and go to market thinking that the mass public will buy a console that is half a grand.
I only can only hope that nothing causes MS to remove the Kinect and go to market thinking that the mass public will buy a console that is half a grand.
Add Mattrick to that, although his vision was the always-online DRM.
Syphon Filter
Member
many dont want it because of kinect required. its a liability actually
PaulExcellent
Member
I'm actually really surprised at the "dev-kit" approach for all Xbone consoles.
It's a good move for Microsoft. I haven't seen any mentions of price for it, and that's great.
Still, Microsoft has burned quite a large amount of bridges with their previous actions against the indie community. That's going to be a problem for them, especially when Sony and Nintendo are trying to get as many independent games as possible.
Nevertheless, Microsoft should embrace the independent community, and this is a step in the right direction. Well, to me.
It's a good move for Microsoft. I haven't seen any mentions of price for it, and that's great.
Still, Microsoft has burned quite a large amount of bridges with their previous actions against the indie community. That's going to be a problem for them, especially when Sony and Nintendo are trying to get as many independent games as possible.
Nevertheless, Microsoft should embrace the independent community, and this is a step in the right direction. Well, to me.
I disagree, a company does not get as big and influential as Microsoft has without a vision, they do have a vision. I can't however claim to know what that is; they did have that executives restructuring recently. Some of their decision have been reactionary, but I'm sure it'll be worth it in the end for Microsoft. It's better to suffer all that ill will now, than to have launched with said policies and have to reverse 6 months or a year into next gen. They might not have recovered from that. If there's something I know, it's that people forget. Sony and their executives made some very questionable decisions and statements at the beginning of last gen and are now heralded as the darlings of the gaming industry. if Microsoft keeps hitting good notes consistently, it could easily be a similar scenario.
I've noticed this and the concerns are very valid. But just going by my circle of friends and social/gaming media, there isn't just much of an uproar about it as there was with DRM or even indie policies.
Back in 05 Microsoft wowed me. This year Sony did. And no matter how hard they back peddle to me the damage has been done. I don't trust them. There not doing this because they love us gamers. It's only being done because of crap pre order numbers and outcry. That is all. Why do you think Sony added trophies and all that? Playing catch up. And that's why I went 360. Now it has reversed and its the same thing.
I agree. It's nice to see someone actually break news and not be afraid of these mighty companies on which they may or may not rely. Too often these days are writers more enthusiast press than actual journalist.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
A dev kit with your console, count me in.
I already code in range of MS tools such as VS/SQL/Azure blah blah but to have that devkit right there as my console and self publishing enabled...I may just have to take on a new pet project and make my own game when this becomes a reality.
Well played MS, finally.
I already code in range of MS tools such as VS/SQL/Azure blah blah but to have that devkit right there as my console and self publishing enabled...I may just have to take on a new pet project and make my own game when this becomes a reality.
Well played MS, finally.
A few people took Patrick Klepek to task because he knew about this news weeks ago but didn't report on it. He says it was info that came from a source that he couldn't really break (most likely people near the top).
I...don't know what to make of that honestly. He wasn't under embargo or NDA.
My problem with Microsoft is intent. How much of this would they have really changed if not for the huge amount of backlash they've been receiving from indie developers and consumers? My problem is that they thought the abominable original policies were the direction they wanted to take gaming in. What would have happened if they were clearly the market leader? Would they go right back to these policies? Changing your policies takes time. To see a complete 180 on so many core policies in such a brief time is a bit disconcerting.
Couldnt have said it better, the whole xbox division is coming across like a bunch of morons, they seem to fumble from one fuck up to the next with this console. Even when they try to put it right they are coming across clueless and moronic. Someone needs to grabs this box by the balls and put it back on track asap as for me i dont know how anyone can safely spend their hard earned money on a company who doesnt seem to know where its going and what its doing. Its just be reactionary to everything at this point, no clear plan or leadership shown at all.
Why was this supposed to be a surprise is what I don't get. Shouldn't they have informed people that they've decided to go in this direction the second they decided on it? Holding back on info that people need to get to work just means that your platform won't have games on it as soon as the other two will.
Klepek, you PUSSY!
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
MS never had self-publishing in mind since the beginning. Now they are acting like "oh, you ruined our great Gamescom moment".
You could deduce the differences between consoles from nearly every gen in such simplistic fashion. Terrible post.
PRICE.
boredandlazy
Member
GPU...
+ What everyone else said...
The problem is that the new editor, Unity, requires a 40.000$ fee in order to release games on xbox 360 and will be same for xbox one i assume
Which means only a 1% of indies can afford it, even if they dont have to pay for a dev kit
While XNA releases came for free, you only had to pay 99$, not 40.000$ and xbox 360 acted as a dev kit as well
Which means only a 1% of indies can afford it, even if they dont have to pay for a dev kit
While XNA releases came for free, you only had to pay 99$, not 40.000$ and xbox 360 acted as a dev kit as well
It's why this idea that MS had been planning this "feature" all along is impossible to believe. They spent months swimming in sour PR over such a stupid policy toward indies, garnered tons of negative feedback from both the indie devs and the fans who saw Sony and Nintendo welcoming the indies with open arms, and MS having this seemingly pointless cold-shoulder stance toward anyone who didn't have a publisher's backing. If there were already plans for something like this, then there would have been no reason to wait and let negativity build up like this - MS would have had a perfect opportunity to announce something like this during E3 with their short on-stage indie presence. That they were intending to announce this at Gamescom shows they were just waiting for a time to announce this reversal at their next most visible spotlight moment after the decision to change direction had been made.
Just curious, would you have preferred MS keep their policies toward indies the same? Not for nothing, but the policies that MS have switched on have only been beneficial. (unless you've drank the Family Sharing Plan kool-aid) It feels like folks just want Sony and MS to be different for the sake of being different, even when those differences are wholly detrimental to one side. Personally, I see these reversals as more proof that the whole Capitalism "competition breeds progress" thing might just have something going for it.
Whoa. Naw. Really? No way it's THAT expensive.
That is what i read, i never read anything about being free, i have found prices ranging from 30 to $40K
That is why Unity does not actually have a price for the PS3-PS4-xbox 360 etc versions of the software, if they were cheap and accessible, they would be there on the site like everything else
FranXico
Member
I was particularly interested in this indie dev statement from the link given above:
As someone who released something on the Windows Store, I can say it wasn't all rosey. Even once MS got it out in the store, visibility is very much an issue - that online store is a complete mess.
To add insult to injury, my game won't be easy to port to say, Android or even iOS. Although we used C++, the whole WinRT API relies on non-standard language extensions (I really hate that bit too).
Why do people want to support them, or in the worst case, hand them over a monopoly on console gaming?
As someone who released something on the Windows Store, I can say it wasn't all rosey. Even once MS got it out in the store, visibility is very much an issue - that online store is a complete mess.
To add insult to injury, my game won't be easy to port to say, Android or even iOS. Although we used C++, the whole WinRT API relies on non-standard language extensions (I really hate that bit too).
Why do people want to support them, or in the worst case, hand them over a monopoly on console gaming?
Well have at it and run off the big differences of these console, please i insist.
This is pasted from the thread linked.
I made this post the last time someone claimed they were basically the same system now ->
● Kinect 2.0 mandatory vs. PS Camera Optional
● No Self-Publishing vs. Self-Publishing Use System as Dev Kit vs. ???? <<<<<<<<
● "Intentionally didn't target the highest end specs" vs. As powerful as money allowed
● Haptic Feedback Triggers vs. PS4 Touch Pad
● Asymmetric Analog Sticks vs. Symmetric Analog Sticks
● New Improved D-Pad vs. Light Indicator (Health, Etc) and Controller Speaker
● No Headset Packed-in vs. Headset Packed-in
● $499.99 vs. $399.99
● Snap/HBO Go/Tried-and-True Online infrastructure vs. PS+ value; critical integration of Share feature
● "Power of Cloud" for dedicated servers, some low level enhancements for games vs. "Power of Cloud" for streaming PS1, PS2 or PS3 games
● All-in-One-Entertainment Device vs. "A system for the gamers, by the gamers."
● Does not allow previous gen peripherals; proprietary set up forces reset vs. 98% of your peripherals from last-gen should work
● Paywall for basically everything vs. Paywall for multiplayer only; free-to-play and all apps remain free for all.
● 15 Exclusives in First Year, 8 new IP and ??? total in development vs. 20 Exclusives in First year, 12 new IP and 30 total in development.
● SmartGlass integration vs. PS Vita integration
Im all for PS4 and wont be buying the One, but really all those other moot points matter do they?
A link about Unity3D pricing for consoles
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/25490/unity-to-ps3-or-360.html
"Licensing costs according to Unity sales as of yesterday:
Hi there,
Thanks for the email.
XBox and PS3 pricing is set at $80K per XBox or PS3 title, and $40K per XBLA or PSN title. > Unity XBox should become available in late 2010 and PS3 early next year.
Cheers,
-- Caitlyn Meeks"
I cant confirm how valid it is, but from that one, most indies would not be able to even come close to afford a release on xbox one (or PS4 with Unity too)
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/25490/unity-to-ps3-or-360.html
"Licensing costs according to Unity sales as of yesterday:
Hi there,
Thanks for the email.
XBox and PS3 pricing is set at $80K per XBox or PS3 title, and $40K per XBLA or PSN title. > Unity XBox should become available in late 2010 and PS3 early next year.
Cheers,
-- Caitlyn Meeks"
I cant confirm how valid it is, but from that one, most indies would not be able to even come close to afford a release on xbox one (or PS4 with Unity too)
I think it is the ultimate indie friendly platform right now
I use it
and have taken developement to a whole new level since my XNA attemptThe only problem is that all that power comes at a cost when it comes to consoles, but is ideal for iPhone, PC, mobile etc
Some massively, yes.
Didn't Microsoft announce some sort of deal with Unity at Build?I think it is the ultimate indie friendly platform right now
I use it
The only problem is that all that power comes at a cost when it comes to consoles, but is ideal for iPhone, PC, mobile etc
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