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First ever DriveClub direct feed racing footage (GamesCom)

nib95

Banned
What an absolute load of rubbish.

It's quite obviously to the left of screen with the way the shadows are cast/moving.

Windshield reflections occur all around the track entirely dependent on what the current lighting conditions allow (i.e in shadow/out of shadow. direct sunlight/indirect sunlight).

Both games are doing pretty much the exact same thing except FM5 has the hand/steering wheel reflected as well.

There are no shadows being cast on anything except the interior of the car. Which even then doesn't seem to correlate with the world around or the reflection. Anyway, I'm not going to debate with you guys. I called this game having baked lighting long ago and was met with a drove of Forza/Microsoft fans claiming otherwise. Low and behold it turns out the game is using baked lighting after all.

My honest guess is that some people don't actually know how realistic lighting actually works and let other motivations cloud logic and judgement.

Anyway, OT. People can look at the comparison GIF of both and make an educated conclusion themselves. Back to DriveClub discussion...
 

Hyunashi

Member
Driveclub is looking incredible and insanely realistic in some of the provided GIFs. Ill admit that I wasn't too hyped for it after E3 but now I leaning towards upgrading the PSplus edition.

Really excited to see what the final build is, especially with how the lighting currently stands.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
There are no shadows being cast on anything except the interior of the car. Which even then doesn't seem to correlate with the world around or the reflection. Anyway, I'm not going to debate with you guys. I called this game having baked lighting long ago and was met with a drove of Forza/Microsoft fans claiming otherwise. Low and behold it turns out the game is using baked lighting after all.

The shadows cast on the interior (and thus the dashboard) can quite easily be seen reflected in the windscreen.

The environment shadows are prebaked, all car shadows are real time which is why there is sometimes a descrepency between environment and car, most easily visible on Laguna Seca footage.

Reflections have little to nothing to do with lighting in game worlds.

My honest guess is that some people don't actually know how realistic lighting actually works and let other motivations cloud logic and judgement.

Amazingly ironic.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
We need that dedicated server thing in the title. Many people seem to think PS4 won't match XBL's feature set but I'm sure we will have plenty of games with dedicated servers and p2p. Things will coexist nicely.
 

nib95

Banned
The shadows cast on the interior (and thus the dashboard) can quite easily be seen reflected in the windscreen.

The environment shadows are prebaked, all car shadows are real time which is why there is sometimes a descrepency between environment and car, most easily visible on Laguna Seca footage.

Reflections have little to nothing to do with lighting in game worlds.


Amazingly ironic.

Most of it is pre-baked. Including the lighting. There is no GI sun, so everything from the reflections down to the shadows are also being baked based on artistic design, or in order to best replicate the real thing. If there is no dynamic lighting, how can there be exact dynamic shadowing? The shadows have to correlate with the lighting and direction of the sun itself. Based on the video's I've seen, the sun positioning seems to be all over the place, and used appropriately for artistic appeal. Lots of clamped highlights instead of actual GI sun etc.

You said reflections have little or nothing to do with lighting, but that is absolute rubbish. Reflections and glare are a direct result of sunlight or other sources of light causing reflections on the windshield or otherwise.


Anyway, if you want to continue the discussion please take it to the PM's. This is getting farcical...
 

CorrisD

badchoiceboobies
It's great to see the news a couple pages back that we can turn off the UI, one of my favourite things to do in GT5 was just drive round Nurburgring as time changes, so I hope DriveClub comes with at least one really long track that I can spend my time on.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
It's great to see the news a couple pages back that we can turn off the UI, one of my favourite things to do in GT5 was just drive round Nurburgring as time changes, so I hope DriveClub comes with at least one really long track that I can spend my time on.

It's frankly just great to see that this game will be really good and not something of an oversight for those saying PS4 has no big AAA games.
 
So, um, is there STILL no 1080p capture yet? Because those FB vids are terribly compressed and low quality. From what I can see though, the game looks great. The detail in the environments is insane and dat lighting... damn.

Still wish they would add weather though. I don't suppose they might consider it for a future update/patch?
 

nib95

Banned
So, um, is there STILL no 1080p capture yet? Because those FB vids are terribly compressed and low quality. From what I can see though, the game looks great. The detail in the environments is insane and dat lighting... damn.

Still wish they would add weather though. I don't suppose they might consider it for a future update/patch?

I think they're already implied they might add weather in a later patch.

Weather effects may be patched into DriveClub post release
 

shinnn

Member
Really interesting comparing this to that of DriveClubs. You can tell immediately which is pre baked and which is dynamic, because Forza 5's sort of just randomly appears out of no where whilst DriveClub's exactly correlates with the gleam of sun that appears through the tree's.
iZ1XVAaln9ruY.gif


tell me that its not correlates with the sun hitting the wheel/hands.. smh
 

nib95

Banned
iZ1XVAaln9ruY.gif


tell me that its not correlates with the sun hitting the wheel/hands.. smh

In that particular GIF it does, though it still does not look as realistic as DC (does look amazing though in it's own right). It would have taken them time and effort to get it all to match up like that mind, but don't mistake it for being dynamic. Killzone 2 for example does a very similar thing with baked lighting and clamped highlights. It's all artistically pre-engineered for maximum eye candy and replication of the real thing.

Only difference here is that DriveClub actually already uses the real thing and won't have to pre-bake this kind of thing. Which is why you'll get completely different results depending on time of day, sun positioning etc, unlike in F5 where each lap will always have the same lighting, same sort of shadows and reflections, no matter how long the race is or how many times you race on the track etc.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Most of it is pre-baked. Including the lighting. There is no GI sun, so everything from the reflections down to the shadows are also being baked based on artistic design, or in order to best replicate the real thing. If there is no dynamic lighting, how can there be exact dynamic shadowing? The shadows have to correlate with the lighting and direction of the sun itself. Based on the video's I've seen, the sun positioning seems to be all over the place, and used appropriately for artistic appeal. Lots of clamped highlights instead of actual GI sun etc.

You said reflections have little or nothing to do with lighting, but that is absolute rubbish. Reflections and glare are a direct result of sunlight or other sources of light causing reflections on the windshield or otherwise.


Anyway, if you want to continue the discussion please take it to the PM's. This is getting farcical...

You don't even know what global illumination is, do you?

In practice, however, only the simulation of diffuse inter-reflection or caustics is called global illumination.

It's basically a better (much more taxing) version of ambient occlusion.

Forza has a real time lighting engine that is applied to moving objects (mostly cars). This is a static system but calculated in real time. A dynamic engine does the same thing but allows the lightsource to move. As for environments, Forza does in fact use a pre baked system where they take a real time lighting engine and essentially save the shadows created and than apply them to the track texturing. An unfortunate side effect from T10s graphics engine (which was last properly rebuilt during FM3 afaik) is the top down environment shadow mapping to cars.

Forza 5 does in fact use some sort of AO or even GI for the cars (which is entirely possible thanks to the track and car lighting engines being completely seperate coupled with "image based lighting" to make the cars somewhat lit by the environment. Add in the fact that the cars do have a real time lighting engine applied to them the shadows they create are entirely dynamic. If they weren't, the shadows moving in the interior camera simply would not exist.

Reflections in the real world are indeed a product of light. Reflections in a game engine are not unless you're using raytracing which neither DC or FM5 do. If they did, you would see the cars reflecting themselves (i.e mirrors and wings) and other cars in all conditions (i.e interior cameras, exterior cameras) which doesn't happen. Both games would likely use a form of cube mapping to do their reflections. Cube mapping is almost as good as raytracing mind you.

The windscreen reflections would use the same reflections seen in bonnet cams where you can see other dynamic objects in real time. They are both essentially taking a picture of the dash and pasting it on the windscreen taking into account rake and curvature of the windscreen. This is why you can clearly see the shadows being cast over the dashboard being reflected in the windscreen in both games. FM5 however has the drivers hands and steering wheel reflected in real time. The reflection model will also only allow a set amount of light reflect (same as the paint reflections are set to allow a certain amount of colour and reflection through) which is why the dash reflections become less and less apparent when there is less light hitting the dashboard.

So, in closing. Both games are doing virtually the same thing in regards to windscreen reflections with Forza doing a tiny little bit more reflections included but it doesn't appear to be as sharp as it is in DC. Will have to wait for some better direct feed videos from both games.
 

onQ123

Member
Has this been posted yet?

T80_DriveClub_Pedalset-2.jpg


1377181730_376854.jpg


First official PS4 racing wheel announced: the Thrustmaster T80 DriveClub Edition

When Evolution Studios declared that Drive Club will support all PS4 wheels, it was surely only a matter of time before a wheel designed specifically for the PS4 would be announced. And now here it is: the Thrustmaster T80 Drive Club Edition.

Designed specifically for the PS4, the T80 boasts a number of features that take advantage of the console's functionality. Officially embedded firmware will allow the PS4 to automatically recognise the T80, and dedicated 'Share', 'Options' and 'PS' buttons will be included to fully replicate the PS4 controller. In total, the T80 features 11 action buttons plus a multi-directional d-pad.

Aesthetically, the T80 features a large 25 cm diamater with rubber textured cladding on the wheel grips providing an erconomic design, although it looks similar to the Thrustmaster RGT. Unlike the RGT, however, the T80 does not have a clutch pedal, although the pedals are said to have adjustable angles of inclination to suit different driving styles. Likewise, the T80 will not include a gear shifter, instead relying on wheel-mounted sequential paddle shifters .

Steering will be fluid thanks to the realistic linear resistance with automatic re-centering, but there's no mention of force feedback which probably explains the low price point compared to their flagship high-end T500 - the T80 will retail for €99.99 as a limited edition to coincide with the launch of Drive Club.

As an entry level wheel, the T80 looks the part, but the lack of clutch pedal and apparent lack of force feedback will dismay hardcore users - particularly as this is the only wheel announced for the PS4 so far. Indeed, at this stage it's unclear whether or not existing Thrustmaster, Logitech and Fanatec peripherals will be compatible with the PS4, which is alarming for those who shelled out on premium peripherals such as the Fanatec CSR Elite and Thrustmaster T500.

Still, the announcement of the T80 is an interesting development considering only the likes of Gran Turismo and Forza Motorsport were previously deemed worthy to have a licensed racing wheel developed in their honor, which is perhaps an indication of Drive Club's potential pedigree as the PS4's flagship racing game.

http://www.teamvvv.com/en/news/comm...ounced-the-Thrustmaster-T80-DriveClub-Edition
 
5Cj7.gif



You can also see at the end of this gif how the clouds change contrast.

It's more noticeable on the straight after the tunnel, but here you can see the cloud detail comes into focus as he turns into the straight.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Yeah, there was also a thread about wheels for next gen created by Amar.

Also, am I reading that right? Doesn't sound like it has FFB and rather "bungee cord" centering or something.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Nice looking wheel, but no force feedback is a bit of a deal-breaker IMO.

I would even go so far and say that there is little purpose for a wheel without force feedback. It makes all the difference in car control compared to a controller. You just can't perceive what the car is doing fast enough without it.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
As for environments, Forza does in fact use a pre baked system where they take a real time lighting engine and essentially save the shadows created and than apply them to the track texturing.

I am still not entirely sure what DriveClub does in this respect. The footage from the same track at day and sunset time shows that coloring and (at least the application of shadowing) in the environment are dynamic, and the devs already said that they are not using "anything" that is pre-baked.

Day without clouds:

driveclubdayphsn9.png


Sunset with cloud cover:

driveclubsunsetpcs8y.png


However, the sun is in the same position although the time of day must be different.
 

nib95

Banned
You don't even know what global illumination is, do you?

In practice, however, only the simulation of diffuse inter-reflection or caustics is called global illumination.

It's basically a better (much more taxing) version of ambient occlusion.

Forza has a real time lighting engine that is applied to moving objects (mostly cars). This is a static system but calculated in real time. A dynamic engine does the same thing but allows the lightsource to move. As for environments, Forza does in fact use a pre baked system where they take a real time lighting engine and essentially save the shadows created and than apply them to the track texturing. An unfortunate side effect from T10s graphics engine (which was last properly rebuilt during FM3 afaik) is the top down environment shadow mapping to cars.

Forza 5 does in fact use some sort of AO or even GI for the cars (which is entirely possible thanks to the track and car lighting engines being completely seperate coupled with "image based lighting" to make the cars somewhat lit by the environment. Add in the fact that the cars do have a real time lighting engine applied to them the shadows they create are entirely dynamic. If they weren't, the shadows moving in the interior camera simply would not exist.

Reflections in the real world are indeed a product of light. Reflections in a game engine are not unless you're using raytracing which neither DC or FM5 do. If they did, you would see the cars reflecting themselves (i.e mirrors and wings) and other cars in all conditions (i.e interior cameras, exterior cameras) which doesn't happen. Both games would likely use a form of cube mapping to do their reflections. Cube mapping is almost as good as raytracing mind you.

The windscreen reflections would use the same reflections seen in bonnet cams where you can see other dynamic objects in real time. They are both essentially taking a picture of the dash and pasting it on the windscreen taking into account rake and curvature of the windscreen. This is why you can clearly see the shadows being cast over the dashboard being reflected in the windscreen in both games. FM5 however has the drivers hands and steering wheel reflected in real time. The reflection model will also only allow a set amount of light reflect (same as the paint reflections are set to allow a certain amount of colour and reflection through) which is why the dash reflections become less and less apparent when there is less light hitting the dashboard.

So, in closing. Both games are doing virtually the same thing in regards to windscreen reflections with Forza doing a tiny little bit more reflections included but it doesn't appear to be as sharp as it is in DC. Will have to wait for some better direct feed videos from both games.

Whilst GI and AO do offer similarities, AO being a crude less resource hogging means to replicate some of the attributes of GI, even as you yourself mentioned, the latter is still the more advanced and realistic method.

Also, I'm not going to write your post off because I do see a lot of sense in it and am happy to concede on certain things. I think for me it is drawing the line between environmental lighting/shadows and those attributed to the vehicles. The argument being purported here that all the lighting and shadows in DC are dynamic where only those of the vehicles are in F5. I do have some queries though.

Are you sure all of F5s vehicular lighting is dynamic, including shadows? Do you have a link to back up the GI claim?

There's got to be some errors here, especially with respect to the vehicles casting dynamic shadows and having complete real time lighting. For a start, both in video and screens you can see that the vehicles do not accurately leave shadows on the environment around them, especially in relation to the direction of the (baked) sun. Angles of shadows etc are often wrong, you also get strange overlapping and doubling of shadows too. Eg railing shadows being on top of a vehicle and underneath it too. The shadow of the car door being directly under it despite the sun being at an angle where the car door Shadow should be angled too etc.

How would you explain that? Also, are you sure neither of these games have reflections that are not related to the lighting? Because the DriveClub gifs seem to show reflections directly correlating with the visible sun light, unlike in F5 where the direction of the sun is not apparent based on vehicle and environmental shadows, visibility of the actual sun, sky contrast/colour changes etc. Only the interior of the cockpit, which to me at least does not seem to line up with the environment as well.


Although this is still OT, I suppose graphical tech talk on racer lighting and implementation is not too off the mark. If a mod objects to this discussion please let me know and I will stop responding immediately.
 

strata8

Member
I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding here about what pre-baked lighting entails. There's no such thing as completely pre-baked lighting. Or at least, not in any modern game.

When developers refer to lighting being "pre-baked", they're talking about pre-calculation of shadows, ambient occlusion, and global illumination. Everything else, like speculars, are calculated in real time. It doesn't prevent environment shadows from affecting game objects, nor does prevent the use of real time shadowing for other objects. It's not going to lead to a discrepancy between environment and car shadows as long as the light source (sun) stays in the same position (as it does in Forza 5). For all intents and purposes, it behaves exactly like shadows generated dynamically in a game with good design.

Halo 4, Uncharted 2/3, KZ2/3, Gears of War 3, etc, all use pre-baked lighting extensively.
 

Vol5

Member
After 'reviewing' the daytime footage there appears to be a significant amount of pop-in, especially on the long straights.
 

nib95

Banned
I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding here about what pre-baked lighting entails. There's no such thing as completely pre-baked lighting. Or at least, not in any modern game.

When developers refer to lighting being "pre-baked", they're talking about pre-calculation of shadows, ambient occlusion, and global illumination. Everything else, like speculars, are calculated in real time. It doesn't prevent environment shadows from affecting game objects, nor does prevent the use of real time shadowing for other objects. It's not going to lead to a discrepancy between environment and car shadows as long as the light source (sun) stays in the same position (as it does in Forza 5). For all intents and purposes, it behaves exactly like shadows generated dynamically in a game with good design.

Halo 4, Uncharted 2/3, KZ2/3, Gears of War 3, etc, all use pre-baked lighting extensively.

They do indeed, and sometimes it shows.

Some of the object shadows could/are still be pre calculated too. I remember in KZ2, sometimes the reload actions wouldn't match the reload shadows of the main character when you looked down at them below.
 

NBtoaster

Member
Whilst GI and AO do offer similarities, AO being a crude less resource hogging means to replicate some of the attributes of GI, even as you yourself mentioned, the latter is still the more advanced and realistic method.

Also, I'm not going to write your post off because I do see a lot of sense in it and am happy to concede on certain things. I think for me it is drawing the line between environmental lighting/shadows and those attributed to the vehicles. The argument being purported here that all the lighting and shadows in DC are dynamic where only those of the vehicles are in F5. I do have some queries though.

Are you sure all of F5s vehicular lighting is dynamic, including shadows? Do you have a link to back up the GI claim?

There's got to be some errors here, especially with respect to the vehicles casting dynamic shadows and having complete real time lighting. For a start, both in video and screens you can see that the vehicles do not accurately leave shadows on the environment around them, especially in relation to the direction of the (baked) sun. Angles of shadows etc are often wrong, you also get strange overlapping and doubling of shadows too. Eg railing shadows being on top of a vehicle and underneath it too. The shadow of the car door being directly under it despite the sun being at an angle where the car door Shadow should be angled too etc.

How would you explain that? Also, are you sure neither of these games have reflections that are not related to the lighting? Because the DriveClub gifs seem to show reflections directly correlating with the visible sun light, unlike in F5 where the direction of the sun is not apparent based on vehicle and environmental shadows, visibility of the actual sun, sky contrast/colour changes etc. Only the interior of the cockpit, which to me at least does not seem to line up with the environment as well.

Although this is still OT, I suppose graphical tech talk on racer lighting and implementation is not too off the mark. If a mod objects to this discussion please let me know and I will stop responding immediately.

While environment shadows and GI are likely baked in Forza (and GI is also probably baked in Driveclub unless they've said otherwise), there's no reason the cars and other moving objects cant have accurate shadows cast from the sun. That happens in basically every game with baked shadows.

Also the sun reflections in both games is just some from of a specular highlight and it isn't diffcult to have that be related to the suns position.
 

strata8

Member
They do indeed, and sometimes it shows.

Some of the object shadows could/are still be pre calculated too. I remember in KZ2, sometimes the reload actions wouldn't match the reload shadows of the main character when you looked down at them below.

If the shadows are changing at all, they're not precalculated. The Killzone reload can be explained by the third person model (used to generate the shadow) having different animations from the first person model on screen.

Static shadows for dynamic objects don't really make sense. The only way you could get away with it without it looking ridiculous is through the use of shapeless blobs under the object like old third person games, or if the object didn't change its positioning relative to the light source.
 

nib95

Banned
While environment shadows and GI are likely baked in Forza (and GI is also probably baked in Driveclub unless they've said otherwise), there's no reason the cars and other moving objects cant have accurate shadows cast from the sun. That happens in basically every game with baked shadows.

Also the sun reflections in both games is just some from of a specular highlight and it isn't diffcult to have that be related to the suns position.

The latter makes sense. Only reason I questioned whether F5 did have full dynamic lighting and shodows on the vehicles themselves or not is because in certain vids and screens to my eyes at least, even that does not seem to always be the case. Maybe it's selective depending on certain factors or something.

If the shadows are changing at all, they're not precalculated. The Killzone reload can be explained by the third person model (used to generate the shadow) having different animations from the first person model on screen.

Static shadows for dynamic objects don't really make sense. The only way you could get away with it without it looking ridiculous is through the use of shapeless blobs under the object like old third person games.

This also makes sense. And the shapeless blob thing, isn't that essentially the door Shadow here? (Second pic, not mine just found it on Google.)

l5G4gth.jpg


Though saying that, the shadow from the bulk of the car seems pretty accurate.

Anyway, I'm embarrassed it's getting this nit picky lol. Interesting discussion but probably the wrong thread for it.
 

NBtoaster

Member

This also makes sense. And the shapeless blob thing, isn't that essentially the door Shadow here? (Second pic.)

l5G4gth.jpg


Though saying that, the shadow from the bulk of the car seems pretty accurate.

Anyway, I'm embarrassed it's getting this nit picky lol. Interesting discussion but probably the wrong thread for it.

It actually seems like cars have an additional shadowing system that can create softer shadows underneath in addition to shadowmaps.
 

strata8

Member
This also makes sense. And the shapeless blob thing, isn't that essentially the door Shadow here?

Though saying that, the shadow from the bulk of the car seems pretty accurate.

Anyway, I'm embarrassed it's getting this nit picky lol. Interesting discussion but probably the wrong thread for it.

The first image is due to the AO under the car not being affected by the sun. I'm not sure why that is, but you can see it in the videos. It's just a coincidence that it lines up with the railing in that shot. Look at the bottom left corner of the car to see what I mean.

Second shot's the same. The door 'shadow' is the same rough AO, which explains why it's not being cancelled out by the sun, the blurriness of it compared to the cars real shadow, and the downwards direction.
 

nib95

Banned
The first image is due to the AO under the car not being affected by the sun. I'm not sure why that is, but you can see it in the videos. It's just a coincidence that it lines up with the railing in that shot. Look at the bottom left corner of the car to see what I mean.

Second shot's the same. The door 'shadow' is the same rough AO, which explains why it's not being cancelled out by the sun, the blurriness of it compared to the cars real shadow, and the downwards direction.

Cool.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Also of note, the rear view mirror is rendered at 30 fps in Forza 5. :p

Just one small little detail I noticed.

3 things.

It's a dynamic frame rate in mirrors.

It's been improved since that E3 footage.

The same thing is happening in DC along with extremely basic lighting.
 
I am still not entirely sure what DriveClub does in this respect. The footage from the same track at day and sunset time shows that coloring and (at least the application of shadowing) in the environment are dynamic, and the devs already said that they are not using "anything" that is pre-baked.

Day without clouds:

driveclubdayphsn9.png


Sunset with cloud cover:

driveclubsunsetpcs8y.png


However, the sun is in the same position although the time of day must be different.


It's moved. The difference between those two races is 3 hours (6pm and 9pm)

The trick in your images is that we know the sun is top left in the first pic because of shadow, but in the bottom pic the sun is where the orange clouds are, and you've been tricked by the contrast between the trees and the white cloud top left as it being the sun.

From the other end of the track.

6pm

DC_6pm.jpg



9pm

DC_9pm.jpg
 
Does anyone think this will become a major flagship franchise for Playstation?

Looking at the stunning new screens and the feel for the game right now, it looks like the game has everything to become a massive racing game franchise going forward.

The next-gen visuals with huge vistas and dynamic weather sets this apart from every other racer out there, which will help it establish itself as a rival to Gran Turismo in the future.
 

Sorc3r3r

Member
Oh god, my heart can't take this anymore :(

It's beautiful.

But in the end we know so little about this game, it's social, it has a fully dynamic light system, procedural clouds, you drive cool cars, stop?

I want to begin to know more about the game under the tech talk!
It's a new IP i don't know what to expect and i'm very eager to know more.
 
Are tracks laser scanned?


Laser scanning 100s of miles of real road would be stupid, the game is most likely using satellite data like their WRC games.


EVOS NEED TO INTEGRATE GOOGLE MAPS IN DRIVECLUB SO WE CAN CREATE OUR OWN ROUTES.


GET IT SORTED RUSHY. YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.
 

dejay

Banned
Does anyone think this will become a major flagship franchise for Playstation?

Looking at the stunning new screens and the feel for the game right now, it looks like the game has everything to become a massive racing game franchise going forward.

The next-gen visuals with huge vistas and dynamic weather sets this apart from every other racer out there, which will help it establish itself as a rival to Gran Turismo in the future.

If it does resemble PGR, as reported by some, then it will have it's own niche. A sexy niche. Kudos to Evolution and boo to MS for letting PGR go.
 
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