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Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice SPOILER Thread | Yes, episode 5 actually happened

GSR

Member
This is the SPOILER thread for Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice. If you haven't played yet and don't want to end up like Athena:

CGcPa1g.png


You should head over to the standard OT.

Anyway, this thread is free for any spoiler discussion of AA6 except the DLC case, which has not yet been released in English.
 

GSR

Member
I just want to say "Paul Atishon" as Kiyoki's translated name shouldn't be making me laugh this hard
 
...Ow....I was thinking it was a "Paul Rand" reference along with another person's name. I am giving this game way too much credit.

Also, people are at Case 5 already? Freaking nuts. Let the game breathe!
 
I just want to say "Paul Atishon" as Kiyoki's translated name shouldn't be making me laugh this hard
Was "Kiyoki" a similar pun in Japanese or something?
Also how did that bit where his initials were relevant work in the Japanese version?
 

GSR

Member
Was "Kiyoki" a similar pun in Japanese or something?
Also how did that bit where his initials were relevant work in the Japanese version?

His first name was "Masaharu", 政治, which can be read as "seiji", "politics". That's also how the initials bit worked - the mail was from "Seiji711".
 

Theorymon

Member
So I just finished the game!

Still gotta let things settle, but my current thoughts are: This is a top 3 Ace Attorney game for me.

Its sorta funny, on paper I bet this game would have sounded really dumb to me, if only because this game has a theme of absurdly rising stakes constantly. The DCA is the main reason, but there's also stuff like Case 2 almost getting Wright Anything Agency shut down, and case 5 basically deciding the entire fate of Khura'in... and yet, it ended up sorta working on me, since I only put the game down once before beating it!

I mean taking a step back, while I enjoyed cases 1,2, and 4 (granted, 4 was a bizzaro filler case), it was cases 3 and 5 that really blew me away. Case 3 in particular was wildly creative with the whole rebel storyline.

Sorry that I dont have a massive wall of text, still gotta take some time to process the insanity of case 5!

Question for those of you who have the Japanese version: Assuming the DLC comes out here, how are the mini cases? Obviously Im getting the full case DLC, but I dont really know how the mini cases work.

EDIT: By the way, did this feel almost like an Apollo Justice game to anyone? The final case felt like it was mostly about him, especially with him ending up staying in Khura'in. Almost felt like a passing of the torch deal with Phoenix to Apollo, though I think if the series continues its gonna be more like a way to write off Apollo. Either way, Im happy we actually got a decent story around him, since ironically Apollo Justice barely got anything to himself in his own game lol (I still like AA4 though)
 

GSR

Member
Question for those of you who have the Japanese version: Assuming the DLC comes out here, how are the mini cases? Obviously Im getting the full case DLC, but I dont really know how the mini cases work.

EDIT: By the way, did this feel almost like an Apollo Justice game to anyone? The final case felt like it was mostly about him, especially with him ending up staying in Khura'in. Almost felt like a passing of the torch deal with Phoenix to Apollo, though I think if the series continues its gonna be more like a way to write off Apollo. Either way, Im happy we actually got a decent story around him, since ironically Apollo Justice barely got anything to himself in his own game lol (I still like AA4 though)

The mini cases are really short (~20 minutes) and very silly. Probably worth it if you want to see more Pearl and Klavier.

And yeah, part of the reason AA6 feels disjointed is because it's pretty much entirely Apollo's story but Phoenix is still a major POV and gets top billing in all the game advertisement. I mean, I'm glad to see more Apollo stuff because I loved AA4, but it's still strange.
 

Lusankya

Member
Case 3 in particular was wildly creative with the whole rebel storyline.
It's a great case, maybe even the best in the game. Although case 5 is probably better just for the story and impact, but it has some pacing problems.


Overall I was very satisfied with AA6, especially how it was all about Apollo's story. I also loved they didn't forget the Gramaryes and at last had a small conversation with Phoenix and Lamiroir showing her the picture of Apollo's true dad. It's too bad they only promised to reveal Trucy's and Apollo's connection the next time.

Also while playing I somehow appreciated AA5 even more and I really want to replay that right now.


Btw. how do you think could they create a possible AA7? The problem is that it's nearly impossibly to increase the stakes, after all they threatened to be killed in 3 out of 5 cases and had to literally lead a revolution.
Would it be okay to come back with a smaller story, maybe finally finishing the Trucy/Apollo stuff? However could they create a compelling plot just based on that?
Or would they make a new game without Apollo and a new lawyer maybe? After all Apollo now will be in Ku'hrain for a while.
 

MegaMelon

Member
Well that was certainly something. Apollo really was awesome. It seems pretty much all significant plot points have been addressed. Even the whole Apollo Trucy sibling thing was mentioned at the end. I really wonder where the series will go next. Maybe with Apollo gone we'll see a new defense attorney. And/or Athenas development as a lawyer.

I just wish we had learnt more of Jove Justice. Although I suppose Mr Sadhmadhi filled that role.
 

GSR

Member
Btw. how do you think could they create a possible AA7? The problem is that it's nearly impossibly to increase the stakes, after all they threatened to be killed in 3 out of 5 cases and had to literally lead a revolution.
Would it be okay to come back with a smaller story, maybe finally finishing the Trucy/Apollo stuff? However could they create a compelling plot just based on that?
Or would they make a new game without Apollo and a new lawyer maybe? After all Apollo now will be in Ku'hrain for a while.

Honestly I wouldn't want them to try and up the stakes further - I felt that AA6 jamming the stakes to 11 and leaving them there was a detriment more than a plus. I joked with a friend early on that the last case would be like, "the entire agency will die if you don't get a not guilty verdict!!!" and it wasn't that far off from the truth.

IIRC the developers said in a post-release interview that they wrote the story so that they could continue it in a variety of ways, which they certainly did:
  • Maya's back in Japanifornia so they could lean all the way back on the nostalgia lever and do more stories with her and Phoenix
  • Apollo's running his own agency in Khura'in
  • Athena's working to become a full-fledged lawyer and case 4 was basically a case 1 for "Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney"
  • 15 years of the series means they can probably get away with a soft reboot
 
Just finished it, not sure where to rank it, better than AA5 for sure, but yeah, having it called Phoenix Wright is just a lie. It really is the end to the Apollo-ish trilogy. Case 4 could have been skipped, but I loved Case 3 and case 5 a bunch.



A few notes:
  • I loved when the villain from Case 2 constantly talked about how bad the Gramaryes were, cuz he was right, they are all horrible people, save Trucy
  • Case 4 really needed at least an investigation to flesh it out, I like Athena, and really felt like she was shortchanged in this game
  • Phoenix and Apollo working together was cool, though I think it would have been better swtiching off between them for different parts of the trial like actual attorneys do
  • Anyone else feel like Inga was shortchanged? I never quite bought him actually being totally evil, they left hints that he didn't really WANT to sign off on all the executions (still had 5 year old ones on his desk) and he loved his daughter a lot apparently
  • The Dhurke twist was great, I didn't figure it out until around the beginning of the Day 2 trial
  • I also felt that Dhurke was Misty Fey done right.

So overall a great addition to the series. Probably my favorite characters in cases since 3, and a much stronger overall story line than 5. Can't wait for the DLC.
 
I honestly think Inga taking care of Rayfa was so she'd be easier to control to channel the Founder's spirit if he succeeded in stealing the throne not out of affection for her, despite Rayfa's affection for him.

Like Franziska thinks very highly about her father and is proud of her family name, but I can't see Manfred to be the kind of man to care about anyone but himself and would only see children as vehicles to carry on his legacy. If he was around during Fran's many failures, I don't doubt for a second he would disown her.
 

Lusankya

Member
Honestly I wouldn't want them to try and up the stakes further - I felt that AA6 jamming the stakes to 11 and leaving them there was a detriment more than a plus. I joked with a friend early on that the last case would be like, "the entire agency will die if you don't get a not guilty verdict!!!" and it wasn't that far off from the truth.

IIRC the developers said in a post-release interview that they wrote the story so that they could continue it in a variety of ways, which they certainly did:
  • Maya's back in Japanifornia so they could lean all the way back on the nostalgia lever and do more stories with her and Phoenix
  • Apollo's running his own agency in Khura'in
  • Athena's working to become a full-fledged lawyer and case 4 was basically a case 1 for "Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney"
  • 15 years of the series means they can probably get away with a soft reboot

Oh, I also don't want them to up the stakes. It's just in the development diaries for AA6 they wrote how they had to one up the AA5 setting.

But yeah, I forgot they told us they created the ending in a way to allow them to continue from there.

Regarding 1) and 2) Yeah, I hope they don't do this. Although I would still enjoy 1) if they create a good story with nice cases.
3) Would be nice, but I guess Phoenix still had to be there in some way or otherwise the marketing will be pretty difficult. Athena with Simon as an assistant was actually quite nice. In general why not having a young female lead and an experienced male side kick?
4) Would be nice as well, but I wonder if they don't consider DGS to be something like that.
 
I honestly think Inga taking care of Rayfa was so she'd be easier to control to channel the Founder's spirit if he succeeded in stealing the throne not out of affection for her, despite Rayfa's affection for him.

Like Franziska thinks very highly about her father and is proud of her family name, but I can't see Manfred to be the kind of man to care about anyone but himself and would only see children as vehicles to carry on his legacy. If he was around during Fran's many failures, I don't doubt for a second he would disown her.

Don't totally agree, look at his safe. Her birthday was the combination, and he kept letters from her as child. Manfred was a flat out asshole, even Franziska thought highly of him as a prosecutor, but had little good to say about him as a dad. Wherein the evidence implies that Inga was plotting against Ga'Ran, but really did love his adopted daughter. It seems like a thread that was dropped. Maybe he was planning the coup to give Rayfa more powers like she said. We never found out either way.
 

Masked Man

I said wow
Datz's EN name feels like a cop out. I realize the double pun doesn't work in English (since Datz = 脱), but I feel something like "Datz Maikh'yu" would better suit his elusive nature.

Just being picky about my favorite character in the game, though. I like a lot of what I've seen of the game thus far. Making Pees'lubn's testimony rhyme (like a real song) was a brilliant touch!
 
I just want to say "Paul Atishon" as Kiyoki's translated name shouldn't be making me laugh this hard

Christ, I am on a role today. First I completely missed the joke in Inga's full name, and now I actually had to look up the pun behind this one. I'd rather not say how many times I pronounced 'Atishon' in my head while playing trying to decipher a meaning...
 
I was tired of the whole "stakes" nonsense by case 2. They kept trying to go higher and higher that they lost all meaning.

Raising tension only works if it is done sparingly and with purpose. Kind of like not showing the monster too much in a horror movie.

It's also like the "witness transformations". It only happened twice in the original trilogy with Yanni and Engarde and it was done to great effect. But in Yamazaki's Ace Attorney games nearly every witness has some new form and it's getting on my nerves. One of the things that endeared Ace Attorney to me was how subtly and effectively it danced between silliness and sincerity, but now they're getting so cartoony and over the top. I'm still enjoying them but in the way I enjoyed the Angry Birds movie rather than something like Wall-e.

Don't totally agree, look at his safe. Her birthday was the combination, and he kept letters from her as child. Manfred was a flat out asshole, even Franziska thought highly of him as a prosecutor, but had little good to say about him as a dad. Wherein the evidence implies that Inga was plotting against Ga'Ran, but really did love his adopted daughter. It seems like a thread that was dropped. Maybe he was planning the coup to give Rayfa more powers like she said. We never found out either way.

I suppose, but that's all they did to show it and that seems like such a "slipping it under the door" way to do it. Compared to how often they showed him sadistically enjoying sending innocent people to jail, taking hostages, threats, and attempted murder he never looked like the type of person that could see Rayfa as anything more than a piece in his power struggle with Garan (I'm never going to be able to keep track of all the apostrophes).

Morgan had genuine affection for Pearl as well, but still saw her as a tool more than a daughter.
 
Just finished the game. Really loved it. Final case had some predictable plot points
Reyfa being Dhurke and Amara's daughter, Queen can't actually channel
, but also some mind blowing one
like Dhurke's situation
 
Btw. how do you think could they create a possible AA7? The problem is that it's nearly impossibly to increase the stakes, after all they threatened to be killed in 3 out of 5 cases and had to literally lead a revolution.
Would it be okay to come back with a smaller story, maybe finally finishing the Trucy/Apollo stuff? However could they create a compelling plot just based on that?
Or would they make a new game without Apollo and a new lawyer maybe? After all Apollo now will be in Ku'hrain for a while.
They could do a prequel game from back when Dhurke was an attorney back in Khu'rain in the days before the DCA eliminated all the lawyers. The game seemed to hint at him having more interesting backstory besides just what was show here.
 
I hope they take a break from the series after this and take the time to really plan out some trilogy-long arcs for the next three games.
 
Finished the game just now. Liked it way better than AA5.

Case 1: Killer was really funny, but the trial itself was kind of boring. One of the weaker first cases IMO.

Case 2: Solid case overall? I thought it was interesting that they went with just one investigation and trial day. Trucy was pretty cool in this case.

Case 3: Really great case. Rayfa tagging along was fun, Datz was great, and I was pretty surprised when it turned out to be a suicide. The DC Act is obviously a very ridiculous concept, but this case made ran with the concept and made it work. AA5 could have used a case like this to better demonstrate what the heck the "Dark Age of the Law" was.

Case 4: It was a fun trial, but why does it exist? They could have made something that connects letter with the game's story? I'm usually very tolerant of filler cases but I'm very confused as to what they were thinking.

Case 5: I'm a huge Apollo fanboy so him getting the final case was really cool. The first half of this case probably should have just been Case 4. Both trials on this case were a lot of fun though. Phoenix's defense of Atishon felt really weird having played 2-4 though? Speaking of Atishon, I thought it was really funny that once they learned his last name was actually Atishon-Wimperson, they never stopped calling him that. The Khura'in twist with Durke having been dead the whole time was fantastic- the moment I realized what was going on, I was hooked. Ga'ran was a pretty good villain too, with a completely absurd design. When the royal guard held Apollo and Phoenix at gunpoint, I laughed at loud.

Case ranking. 5>3>2>4>1
 
This game really needed Case 5 separated into two cases, since the second "half" was about as long as other AA finales. Case 4 could've probably been cut altogether, as far as I'm concerned. This really should've been an Apollo Justice game flat out too.

But holy shit case 5 was insane. How the hell did they even come up with this case? I lost it when the Queen became the prosecutor.

There's a ton of really cute moments all over this game (and I'm not talking about Rayfa). Apollo's AA5 costume basically being a copy of Dhurka's was a highlight for me. They even used a shit ton of traditional tropes that AA has usually tried to shy away from... Twins, Prospagnosia, and even Multiple Personality Disorders. Case 5 also directly references a locked room mystery. Either way they made it work.
 

Wayoshi

Member
Wanted to really love this game, but I think they tried to do too much in the final case, and the big bad was so obvious and generic.

I thought they were maybe feeling done with Apollo and will introduce a new attorney for AA7, but then there's the Lamiroir cocktease... hmm.

Music was awesome though
 

GSR

Member
A lot of people are hitting on my core issue with the game, which is basically that it should've just been a consistent Apollo game from the beginning. Phoenix is pretty much there just to introduce the Khura'in trials and provide a little extra connective tissue for Maya's return. Then you get to the final case and it's all about Apollo anyway, but all he's done up to that point was a side case about Trucy and the Gramaryes that doesn't actually have anything to do with the overarching plot.

And the thing is it's clear they really wanted this game/the last case to be Apollo's finale, but they don't give it the kind of series-wide setup Phoenix got in his trilogy. For instance, yes it's cool they brought back the Gramaryes... but they did it in a way that was totally disconnected from both the AA4 plotline and the AA6 plotline. The final case is all about Apollo fighting to save his childhood friend and foster father... neither of whom have been so much as alluded to before this game.

Heck, compare 3-5's major players (Phoenix, Edgeworth, Mia, Maya, Larry, Gumshoe, Pearl, Franziska, Misty, Godot, Dahlia, Iris) to 6-5's (Apollo, Phoenix, Ema, Athena, Dhurke, Inga, Rayfa, Nahyuta, Amara, Garan) and notice how in Phoenix's case most of those characters were long-established or had been seeded throughout AA3. Whereas in 6-5 the only main characters who've been around since AA4 are Apollo/Phoenix/Ema and the only one from AA5 is Athena. The rest are from AA6 or even really only established in 6-5! (I guess Trucy's around too but she barely does anything.)

AA6 is just a very confused game overall. It's still entertaining and has some good mysteries, but on the whole I felt like the overall plot was a mess and showed how the current writing team has trouble letting go of Phoenix.
 

Masked Man

I said wow
That Dhurke twist, Apollo's subsequent begging and denial of his own proposed theory, and then his breakdown was fantastic.

Agreed. I thought that whole twist was really well executed, and it culminated in an emotional response I haven't experienced with this series since AA3. (Not quite on that same level, but it was well done nonetheless.)
 

NotLiquid

Member
Finished the game. Individual case thoughts first and more overall thoughts below.

Case 1:
Arguably my least favorite case after all is said and done but it had it's high points. My main problem was how it dragged for quite some time, but the way it introduces us to the Khura'in world is handled fairly gracefully and the culprit's gimmick was quite the riot. This could have used with some trimming but at the end of the day it's still one of the better "first cases" in my eyes, with the only contenders to that throne being 4-1 and 3-1.

Case 2: I have to be honest - most of the "obvious twists" that people saw coming here I didn't actually fully anticipate. I didn't expect Bonny to be two people since I figured it was leading up to an April May-esque "bitch in sheep's clothing" reveal. I was thinking a lot about 1-2 during this case, particularly how a self-centered person of power seemed to be having a criminal accomplice, but I still didn't put two and two together until very late in regards to the Retinz twist. I suppose age would have been a factor but the only thing that 7 years did to Valant was give him a stache, and Retinz was right in that the Gramaryes have a shady backstory. The thing that stood out to me most is that this case in hindsight had some fantastic pacing. I originally thought this case dragged a bit after we spent so long investigating but to my surprise the trial got knocked out in a day and didn't go on for longer than it needed to. I think this was a great case to put Apollo back in and even though a lot of things can be said about how this game constantly tried to raise stakes with it's cases, it served as a great way to show that Apollo was starting to come into his own. I think looking back at it, it was clear from the start that this was the series finally allowing Apollo a lot of authoritative autonomy.

Case 3: I would say this is the best case in the game if only because of how it has an incredibly subversive outline for the way the events ended up playing out, as well as probably the most quaint and beautiful ending of any case this series has seen. A lot of mid-case twists set up the fantastic endgame plot points that the game is moving towards. In terms of Case 3s this is probably the most balanced Case 3 out of any of the game's cases. Usually the games use Case 3 as the independent "every day life of Wright & Co" filler but here it feels greatly placed as a means of slowly building up the entire narrative and getting us more involved in the overarching story that this game manages to eventually ace almost as well as AA3. Also it heavily features and introduces Datz Are'bal, who is the best character in the game.

Case 4: By far the most awkward case when it comes to how it affects the game's pacing. In fact you could argue it's a bit of a sore spot... but I still really liked it - mostly because of Blackquill. His reintroduction is a stroke of genius that gives such a refreshing reprieve to Nahyuta's increased staleness and he serves as a fantastic foil. It cements Athena and Simon as a killer duo and if nothing else had some of the contradictions been a little more "obvious" the case itself could have fit snuggly as a Case 1 in an Athena focused game - which I'm going to assume is what the series is going to be moving towards next now that Apollo's story has effectively finished.

Case 5.1: Splitting this one because really, the game would probably benefit more from it. Even if the two days lead straight into each other it's still far easier to think of the first day as a prologue to the real deal, and that prologue is a fun adventure where the investigation almost becomes more interesting than the trial - until the curveball hits and Apollo is forced to go against Phoenix. This wasn't an outstanding portion of the game by any means but finally meeting Apollo's foster father and them hanging out together is a fun experience, and the subsequent trial is an elegantly entertaining one that becomes rather emotional near the end once Sarge/Armie gets involved in it. I've never expected to feel sad for a helicopter drone and eventually feel even more sad once you find out what's behind the drone.

Case 5.2: So full disclosure - the most mindblowing twist this series has had in my opinion was finding out the true antagonist of AA5. That said, even though I think that twist is the one to quickly pull the rug from underneath I have to admit that it didn't feel as "satisfying" looking back at how it was a very convenient twist that didn't seem to be as integral to the overarching story. In contrast, going into Case 5 I almost immediately knew that the true culprit was going to be either the Queen or the Justice Minister. And yet that didn't stop the case from throwing some incredible curveballs that would make my heart sink several times. This is an amazing emotional gut buster of a case that is only rivaled by 3-5 in terms of payoff. Seeing Phoenix next to Apollo for a change was an amazing thing to behold as Apollo finally managed to cinch one incredible victory. The way this case is laid out and develops is easily going to stand the test of time in my opinion as all of the twists pay off well here and have a rather profound emotional effect.

At the end of the day... I really liked this game. Far more than I'd expect. Even though I liked AA5 I definitely felt that it lacked a somewhat distinct "spark" behind it since throughout most of the game the cases were acceptable - not bad but not great either. A good game that despite amazing visual presentation felt somewhat unremarkable up to the end. I was highly skeptical about AA6's setting and what AA5 left me with but it took some dubious expectations of mine and managed to weave a rather great entry that in my eyes is easily in the Top 3 of AA games. Some problems I have include testimonies this time seemingly having a lot more contradictions but only allowing for one specific way to tackle them. The Diviniation Séance, while a good idea on paper in my opinion, could use a lot of refinement. The flashbacks were also way too many in my opinion and they broke the pace a little bit. I feel like I have the Maya talking to Rayfa scene about her "duty" burned in my retinas.

Most of those are only small issues for me though. The main problems come from the game's pacing in terms of case-by-case structure, but all those cases are quality. This is a pacing problem that feels similar to AA2 and perhaps AA3 ever so slightly (I still find AA3 to be somewhat overstated by the community due to three of it's cases being the only real highlights, whereas case 2 is serviceable while case 3 is total dumpster fire), but it's redeemed by all of those cases either being fun or emotionally captivating.

The overarching story was handled with a lot of care in my opinion - personally I'm usually the one who prefers the less "spiritual-focused" game stories in Ace Attorney due to how highly I view AA1 and the finale of AA2, but leave it to AA6 to structure itself thematically and aesthetically very much like AA3 and end up becoming one of this series' best entries.

In fact, this kind of feels like a better version of Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney's story. Both games deal with trials in foreign kingdoms that have little respect to due process, but while PLvsAA used a crossover to tell a story that wasn't actually about the characters we play as (with the resulting story/characters being rather boring), AA6 manages to use it's setting to tell a really good story focusing specifically on characters we know and love.

It's an amazing sendoff to Apollo in my opinion. While he could have had maybe an extra case in the game, perhaps a Case 4 for himself (even though I personally really liked the case we got), I see Phoenix's portions as somewhat extended versions of Mia's cases in AA3 setting up for the finale. Him being there as well makes Case 5 really resonate in terms of Apollo being the star; it sort of feels like it's making up for the fact that Phoenix was the one leading the charge for most of AA4. In fact what I found great was how, just like AA3's final case, it felt exciting and nostalgic how most of every "key player" in the franchise returned to have a shining moment. Apollo, Phoenix, Trucy, Athena, Ema, Maya and Edgeworth all being around with some of the awesome newcomers like Ahlbi, Dhurke, Datz and Rayfa made it feel like a fucking all-star concoction of an Ace Attorney case. If only Gumshoe was there for the ride.

And they actually gave some vague closure to Lamiroir! Sure it was a total after thought in the end credits that felt like it was only there since they ran out of space to acknowledge it but I was really happy that they just closed that loop. Maybe in the next game Apollo and Trucy can finally acknowledge that they're siblings.

Overall, loved it. At the end of the day I'm probably going to have this somewhere in my GOTY.
 

jonjonaug

Member
Asking here too because this is driving me mad. I'm at the very end of the game and using the revised statement in the final seance on the mirror in scene 4 when the gloved hand is open and it's not working, but I'm SURE this has to be the answer. I've tried targeting all parts of the open hand with this statement, nothing works.

EDIT: Ugh never mind. I'm pretty sure the cursor for this part is bigger than the actual "hitbox" of the area you're supposed to point out or something, so even if it looks like you're hitting it you're not.
 

spiritfox

Member
My god Inga's full name

Inga Karkhuul Haw'kohd Dis'nahm Bi'ahni Lawga Ormo Pohmpus Da'nit Ar'edi Iz Khura'in III

That's amazing. That said, I'm disappointed that Inga didn't make a channeling return, and the whole relationship with Rayfa not explored more. Ga'aran is kinda predictable as the final boss, and I predicted the entire backstory at the end of day 1 investigation. Still, I'm glad that Apollo finally got the game he deserves, after Phoenix stole AA4.
 

MrBadger

Member
It's fair. Phoenix steals Apollo Justice, so Apollo steals the game where Maya comes back. My impressions -

Case 1
A bit shit, really. The culprit was really funny, but it felt drawn out, and the "death to all lawyers" shtick made me worried that this game's over all theme would be another "dark age of the law". Probably won't be replaying this one.

Case 2
Loved it. Characters were great, the culprit was really entertaining and it was nice to have a Trucy-centric episode that follows up on the Troupe Gramarye storyline from Apollo Justice.

Case 3
Really solid case as well. Everything after Maya channels Tahrust is great. Refreshing to see the way the crime went down as well, with no villain transformation or breakdown. Dual Destinies was a bit weird how
even in the case where the "culprit" was sympathetic, he still had all that stuff.

Case 4
Enjoyed it a lot. It is pretty funny how out of place it is, though. Simon Blackquill puts Prosecutor Sad Monk to shame. It's hilarious how the localisation team made him a massive weeb.

Case 5A
Really wish this wasn't in the trailer. Wright VS Apollo was novel, and I'm glad it ended with Apollo outsmarting him. I was expecting it to do the whole "aha, I was just testing you and knew the truth the whole time" thing that Layton VS Wright did.

Case 5B
Had to do this one in multiple sittings because of how long it was but I ultimately found it satisfying. The investigation I found to be a drag but once the trial started, it instantly got better. Prosecutor Rita Repulsa was predictably behind everything, but all the reveals were great. Dhurke being dead the whole time and Apollo's breakdown were the best moments the series has seen since T&T.
 

jonjonaug

Member
My god Inga's full name



That's amazing. That said, I'm disappointed that Inga didn't make a channeling return, and the whole relationship with Rayfa not explored more. Ga'aran is kinda predictable as the final boss, and I predicted the entire backstory at the end of day 1 investigation. Still, I'm glad that Apollo finally got the game he deserves, after Phoenix stole AA4.

Being channeled after death only to discover your own dead body, then immediately ceasing to exist again, is really abjectly horrifying. I kinda feel sorry for the asshole.
 

MrBadger

Member
Being channeled after death only to discover your own dead body, then immediately ceasing to exist again, is really abjectly horrifying. I kinda feel sorry for the asshole.

He was the worst, but I bet his last moments were a living nightmare. He was threatened by a dead man, murdered, woke up thinking it was a dream, then walked into his own crime scene. Terrifying
 

spiritfox

Member
He was the worst, but I bet his last moments were a living nightmare. He was threatened by a dead man, murdered, woke up thinking it was a dream, then walked into his own crime scene. Terrifying

I wonder what it's like to see your own dead body. Dhurke probably also saw his own body.
 

Lusankya

Member
He was the worst, but I bet his last moments were a living nightmare. He was threatened by a dead man, murdered, woke up thinking it was a dream, then walked into his own crime scene. Terrifying

I don't think he was the total worst, at least the game shows you how he actually cared for Rayfa (and she cared for him).
 

kpjolee

Member
Just finished the game.

While I am glad to see Apollo finally getting his well-deserved shining moment for the first time ever, I don't even know why they even bothered to put Phoenix and Maya in the game.

Phoenix is nerfed to the point that made me cringe so many times during Case 3 and Case 5, and Maya is pretty much deduced to being merely a tool for solving Cases.
 

spiritfox

Member
Obviously the next game will begin with Phoenix losing the first case then he goes on a voyage to relearn how to be a lawyer.

Hire me Capcom. I'm better than Yamazaki.
 

MrBadger

Member
I wonder if Dhurke is something they wanted to do in Dual Destinies? I have the art book and it says they tossed around ideas to do with Apollo's dad, and the coat+eyepatch look matches Apollo's redesign.

I wonder what it's like to see your own dead body. Dhurke probably also saw his own body.

That whole thing, and seeing the victim's last moments gave me some major Ghost Trick vibes. Especially (Ghost Trick spoilers)
when you go back to see Jove's last moments to resolve the murder. Very reminiscent of them going back to Yomiel's death.

Just finished the game.

While I am glad to see Apollo finally getting his well-deserved shining moment for the first time ever, I don't even know why they even bothered to put Phoenix and Maya in the game.

Phoenix is nerfed to the point that made me cringe so many times during Case 3 and Case 5, and Maya is pretty much deduced to being merely a tool for solving Cases.

I bet marketing had a role. The game ended up being Apollo's, but I bet Maya's return and Phoenix's starring role is an easier sell. I know I went into the game expecting a Phoenix/Maya fan wankfest. Having said that, I don't think Phoenix was nearly as bad here as he was in DD. His shock animations got less use and from Apollo's perspective, he seems pretty dignified.
 

NotLiquid

Member
I bet marketing had a role. The game ended up being Apollo's, but I bet Maya's return and Phoenix's starring role is an easier sell. I know I went into the game expecting a Phoenix/Maya fan wankfest. Having said that, I don't think Phoenix was nearly as bad here as he was in DD. His shock animations got less use and from Apollo's perspective, he seems pretty dignified.

As an aside I kind of liked how Apollo vs Phoenix showcased Phoenix's kind of smug, self satisfied disposition from an outsider's point of perspective. Phoenix is often accused of bluffing his way through court and being too obsessed with the slightest inconsistency but having to square off against him kind of highlights why he's got a frustrating reputation among prosecutors and some other people. Having to go up against him is an exercise in patience.
 

TrueBlue

Member
I don't think Nick got nerfed - more, I think Apollo got buffed.

Besides, I think most of Phoenix's truly panicked moments are understandable within the context of the game. He's not just losing his cool over any little thing like at points in the original trilogy. His growth is still there.

I'm intrigued to see how or if the DLC cases addresses Phoenix now. It might just be a nostalgia-fest, but it might provide a hint as to where things may be headed.
 

Kneefoil

Member
I beat the game earlier today. I haven't read the thread yet because I wanted to give my own raw thoughts on the game, and don't want others' opinions to color my opinions before I get to share them, so here I go:

I'll start with saying that the game was really good. I liked it way more than Dual Destinies and preferred it over Justice for All, but I didn't like it as much as the other three. It wasn't much worse though.

It still had the same problems that every single Ace Attorney games have had. I felt like the moments where two pieces of evidence would make sense to present, but where the game accepts only one were more frequent than in the other games, but that could've been just me.

I really wish that Capcom would be more willing to extend the cases over several days like in the DS games. Maybe it's easier for them to write out the plots like this, or maybe they think that the games are better this way, but I personally think stuffing everything in just 1 or 2 days makes the games worse. I felt like almost all of both the Investigation and the Court segments went on for too long, and I would've like to move on to do the other way before the investigation or courtroom segment I was playing ended. I think that alternating between them more often would prevent making the gameplay quite as monotonous, and because you so often already get all the evidence in day 1 in this game, the players are more likely to guess the upcoming twists to the story earlier than they would if the segments were spliced up more.

The writing in the game was pretty good and the cases were all pretty interesting. There were some really obvious asspulls though. There being a fifth Troupe Gramarye member came out of nowhere, and Mr. Reus didn't really fit the game card motif all that well. I guess he was supposed to be the joker, but if there was a joker, I think it would've fit Magnifi better because of his leader position (joker can be any suit, so it triumphs over all of them).

Apollo having lived in Khura'in was just as big of a surprise, and I don't think that part was handled particularly well either. Jove just happened to travel to Khura'in with baby Apollo without bringing his wife along, and he just happened to be at the queen's residence at the time of the arseny without any guards being present. They don't even explain how Apollo survived the fire, but I guess I have to assume that Amara picked him up on her way out. For some reason they also had Thalassa's bracelet with them even though Apollo would've been way too small to wear it back then. I was hoping they would at least flesh out Jove by channeling him or something, but he's just a vehicle for Apollo to end up in Khura'in.

Of course the real reason for all of this is just that the writers just needed an excuse for Apollo to have lived in Khura'in in order to make Nahyuta, who's perhaps the most boring prosecutor so far, more interesting, and to ultimately get rid of Apollo, because juggling three main characters is hard. While I'm sad that they decided to write Apollo out of future games (aside from a cameo or an odd case when he visits the US), I'm glad that he at least got a very good send off. This was very much an Apollo Justice game, and while I didn't like the reasoning for Apollo ending up in Khura'in, the relationship between Apollo and Dhurke was really well written.

Other random notes:
  • Gar'an was a really good opponent in the courtroom
  • No proper ladder/stepladder argument is a bit disappointing.
  • Found a couple of continuity errors, unless the law in the US of Ace Attorney universe has changed: 1) Gambling is now apparently legal even though it didn't used to be, and 2) Phoenix states that where he comes from the accused are innocent until proven guilty even though it was pretty obvious in earlier games that they were guilty until proven innocent.
 

NotLiquid

Member
No proper ladder/stepladder argument is a bit disappointing.

There was one. The first time you're questioning Maya in the Detention Center she points out how she's "grown out" of that argument. It felt somewhat poignant though since Maya referred to it as the "stepladder argument" while Phoenix corrected her by calling it a ladder, even though it used to be reversed.

Re card motifs: Magnifi is more likely to be an Ace of Spades (which was also his brooch shape). Reus as a Joker makes more sense.
 

Kneefoil

Member
There was one. The first time you're questioning Maya in the Detention Center she points out how she's "grown out" of that argument. It felt somewhat poignant though since Maya referred to it as the "stepladder argument" when Phoenix corrected her by calling it a ladder, when it used to be reversed.

That was more like a reference to the argument than an argument itself. That's what I meant by a "proper ladder/stepladder argument."

Re card motifs: Magnifi is more likely to be an Ace of Spades (which was also his brooch shape). Reus as a Joker makes more sense.
Magnifi is a spade, yes. I just personally thought that it would've been better if Magnifi had been the joker and Reus had been the spade. Magnifi was already a spade in AA4 though, so they would've had to retcon Magnifi to have changed from joker to spade after Reus left. It's such a small detail that most people won't even consider or care about though, so I can see why the devs would not have bothered changing it, or even thought about it.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
The whole royal family in Khura'in reminded me a LOT of the Falenan royal family from Suikoden V, right down to having a silver haired mild mannered queen with a headstrong, normal haired husband - both with two children, an older prince who looks and acts 90% like his mother and a younger princess who looks and acts more like her father. It was even a matriarchal society in both stories.


 
Maybe I'm just forgetting something, since I haven't played AA4 in awhile, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But with that Lamiroir tease at the end, with Phoenix showing her the picture of Jove... isn't she blind? So how did she know it's Jove without being told?

Regardless, has me excited for AA7, whenever that may be.
 
First off: I loved the music, and the visuals of the new setting. Also, upon completing the game, the title "Spirit of Justice" really was well-picked by the translation team.

Generally speaking, this game had 2 really big flaws. The first was the constant flashbacks. You get the flashback to Dhurke saving the boys from drowning in Case 5a first, and you see it like 5 more times after that over the rest of Case 5. And there's so many more of those, some going back like 5 minutes of seeing the stuff happen. Bleh.
The other big flaw I felt this game had was that it was extremely picky about stuff. There was testimonies with more than one inconsistency, but you were supposed to only point out one thing in particular. Same goes for presenting evidence - where you have several ones that would've worked, you're only allowed to present one. And also when pinpointing stuff on photos/maps.
2 examples of this coming to my mind here are: Case 2 trial where you are supposed to show that Retinz bears ill will against Trucy. You are supposed to show the clipboard with the carbon paper. I tried showing the conned contract, but that was not allowed. The most infuriating part about it? When talking about the clipboard, the first piece of evidence they show is the damn faked contract. Similar situation with Case 3. There is one point where you're supposed to show that Maya was standing in the Sanctum's side with the broken lantern. But you couldn't just pinpoint in the bottom half or "behind" the lanterns, you had to pick a specific part that was exactly between the lanterns horizontally. Stuff like that. So annoying aghhhhh.


Anyway, here's my thoughts on the cases, as well as the adversaries at he prosecutor bench.

Gaspen Payne leaving the United Prefectures of Amerippon and moving to a country without defense attorneys just so he could finally win some cases is pretty funny. Wish he would've said what Winston is up to as well after Edgeworth cleaned out the prosecutors' office, but maybe in AA7 we'll see Winston come back - he might've just been bad and not corrupt. Also great how full he is of himself because of his "success" that he got without any blowback.
That said, Payne setting up Wright to get executed was pretty heavy stuff. He should stay in Khura'in.

Sahdmadhi is probably my least favourite prosecutor in the entire series. Case 5 changes nothing about that opinion (since after all you don't really go up against him anyway). Like, I understand that Queen Gar'an controlled him by having custody of his sister, but there was no reason for him to be such a bag of wind. He makes super weak cases, and all he does to counter arguments is to hurl insults, his prayer beads, or his catchphrase of letting it go and moving on. The witnesses made better cases than him. And Blackquill who was on the defense bench did a better job at leading the trial. Speaking of which, I have no idea why they flew in Sahdmadhi for some random ass homicide case. Surely there are more prosecutors than Edgeworth, Blackquill and the random foreigner available? Even Gaspen Payne in case 1 felt more like a threat than this guy. I was especially disappointed because before the trial he first appears in, he's built up having the ability to read the karmic flow of a trial and such, and then he's just a shitty prosecutor. What an ass.

Queen Gar'an on the other hand, wow. What an enemy. Probably the strongest "final boss" since Manfred von Karma. Also finally a female prosecutor and adversary with some damn oomph. Franziska always felt too timid. I didn't mind the over the top campiness of her getup and demeanour; in fact I really enjoyed it. And damn her soundbites for yelling Objection and Such Insolence are amazing, and so is her cackle towards the end. I really hope they take a bit of her and put it in a future prosecutor for the United Prefectures should there ever be an AA7. We need a good female prosecutor for the series.

As for the cases...

Case 1 is probably the weakest of the cases. While I like the setup for the new location, I think they went way over the top with the anti-lawyer sentiment (especially with the ANNIHILATE! EXTERMINATE! shite, pls). It didn't help I can't stand Ahlbi, nor did I find the culprit interesting in the slightest. His singing testimony gimmick was cute at first, but it got really grating really fast. The case itself was boring and drawn out way too much.

Case 2 is okay, but I think I would've enjoyed it more if I didn't see the two big twists (Bonny being a twin and Retinz being Mr. Reus) coming from like 5 minutes into the investigation. I like that they're doing stuff with the Gramaryes and explore Trucy some more in the case, and also that Apollo is given some responsibility instead of being a greenhorn.

Case 3 was quite solid, but it left me a bit unsatisfied. I dunno why. The story was solid, for sure, and the witnesses were pretty good, but I can't put my finger on it why it felt unsatisfying. Maybe it was because the Abbot committing suicide felt weird to me. I dunno. It seems like they did that partly to just rub in how oh so terrible the DPA is (as if we didn't get it already...).

Case 4 I actually really enjoyed. I don't understand the dislike for it. Yes it was inconsequential, yes the plot was a bit lackluster, yes it does feel like it'd fit as an early case but... Uendo and Geiru are amazing witnesses, I thoroughly enjoyed their testimonies so damn much. Bucky was awesome too, and criminally underused. And Simon joining forces with Athena because he just wants some noodles and being an ultra weeb cracked me the fuck up.

Case 5.1 I have mixed feelings about. I thought the investigation dragged on a little too much (the whole cave starting to flood part could've been taken out...), it was pretty fun to have Dhurke and Apollo go on an adventure. I disliked Atishon as a villain, he was pretty flimsy and they could've done much more with the politican aspect by having him spew more polit-rhetoric and us having to decipher his empty words and picking out the substance. Instead he's more presented as this feudal lord's bratty grandson, and he folds just like a bratty teenager when scolded properly. I was half-expecting his grandfather to show up and pull him by the ear home while talking about house arrest because he broke the name shield. I absolutely adored Armie though. She was super cute.

Case 5.2 was pretty good. Convoluted, complex, unforeseen twists, the stakes getting raised higher and higher, and the prosecutor literally changing the law as she sees fit. I can't even begin to say how much I enjoyed this case, and it probably will go into history as being one of the top cases in the entire series. The only things I didn't enjoy too much was Gar'an's breakdown. It felt a bit underwhelming after beating such a powerful foe. And the other thing is towards the end, when Gar'an brings up the DP Act and says Sahdmadhi would be convicted of murder because he made that testimony trying to protect her. Like, what the fuck? Dude made that under duress, and he immediately retracted it the second the duress was taken away.
The resolve also seems a bit weird to me - why is Amara not instituted as queen, and instead Rayfa?

Anyway, I think this is a great game, and one of the better installments to the series. The writing is great, although they really didn't try with the puns this time. The infuriating parts aren't too bad in the grand scheme of things. The only big weakpoint imo is Sahdmadhi being such a paperweight of a prosecutor.

Beyond that, I enjoyed this game a lot, and am glad they finally were able to wrap up Apollo's arc. I'm definitely looking forward to playing the DLC and hope AA7 is in the cards. It's a shame the seance won't come back unless we get a special "Meanwhile, let's see what's up with Apollo"-case in future installments.
It also seems that they have pulled Ema out.


As for AA7 - if it happens, I fully expect the game to introduce us a new lawyer (probably in a green suit...), and a new detective, along with the obvious new prosecutor. That said, I really hope they also bring back Gumshoe and Lana Skye as well.
 
The resolve also seems a bit weird to me - why is Amara not instituted as queen, and instead Rayfa?

Amara did mention in a testimony how she enjoyed the simple life, so I can see why she'd cede the throne to Rayfa. But Amara should have at least stood as Regent until Rayfa was capable of channeling spirits instead of Sad Monk, since channeling is so important to maintaining their sovereignty.
 
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