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[kpjolee]

As an aside I kind of liked how Apollo vs Phoenix showcased Phoenix's kind of smug, self satisfied disposition from an outsider's point of perspective. Phoenix is often accused of bluffing his way through court and being too obsessed with the slightest inconsistency but having to square off against him kind of highlights why he's got a frustrating reputation among prosecutors and some other people. Having to go up against him is an exercise in patience.

Apollo vs Phoenix is especially where I didn't like how Phoenix was portrayed in this game.
Phoenix, out of all characters in this game, should know more about spirit channeling and spirit mediums than anyone else. He should have known that Atishon will not just kill Maya since she is the spirit medium and how much valuable she is for having such ability, yet he just played in Atishon's hand for the whole trial and even went far as putting false murder charge on Datz.

That just destroys the Phoenix's character to the core since he was always portrayed as a lawyer who always pursues the truth under any circumstances. Heck, he dealt much better with Maya's kidnapping in AA2. I think Phoenix should have been more clever than that, instead of having Apollo to bail him out of that situation.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Apollo vs Phoenix is especially where I didn't like how Phoenix was portrayed in this game.
Phoenix, out of all characters in this game, should know more about spirit channeling and spirit mediums than anyone else. He should have known that Atishon will not just kill Maya since she is the spirit medium and how much valuable she is for having such ability, yet he just played in Atishon's hand for the whole trial and even went far as putting false murder charge on Datz.

That just destroys the Phoenix's character to the core since he was always portrayed as a lawyer who always pursues the truth under any circumstances. Heck, he dealt much better with Maya's kidnapping in AA2. I think Phoenix should have been more clever than that, instead of having Apollo to bail him out of that situation.

If anything, this game, particularly this case, did a lot better at making Phoenix seem consistent with his AA4 self than AA5 did. Definitely back in the game and out of his rut, but still less proactive, more willing to resign himself, and a bit more mature than he was in the original trilogy. I can see why this would be a con for some, but I liked it.

Also, copy-paste of my main game impressions from the main thread without spoiler tags, as it belongs more in this thread anyway:

-The revolution angle and how pervasive the law is in Khura'in never stopped being ridiculous, but managed to be extremely entertaining throughout despite this.
-Case 5 was like a gatling gun of plot twists. The villain herself may have been extremely obvious, but the journey there was a wild ride and quite possibly one of the most exciting cases in the series. The stakes got higher and higher, and I don't think a villain has felt so powerful and threatening since Von Karma. I NEVER would have expected the Dhurke is being channeled twist. In fact, the only twist I saw coming was Rayfa being Nahyuta's sister.
-The entire game was basically Apollo's, but unlike AA4, which sidelined Apollo for Phoenix, every character remained important throughout. I never expected to play as Apollo for the final case, and having Phoenix by his side gave me AA4 vibes - the best kind of AA4 vibes from the best moments in that game. Reus and the Troupe Gramarye stuff were great callbacks to - and continuations of - AA4 plot threads.
-Case 4 was literally "insert cast here," but it was one of the more entertaining cases in the series and had Blackquill as your support, so I didn't mind at all.
-Nahyuta and Apollo feel like a better written, more appealing Edgeworth/Phoenix from AA1. Apollo's very own childhood friend prosecutor, whose superior is the final villain.
-I LOVE Dhurke. I was really sad to see him die. He managed to be both cool and hilarious. I was kind of upset he wasn't Apollo's birth father, without the extra foster father/Jove Justice angle. I mean, they look similar enough. At least the other best new character, Datz, survived.
-Really wonder what direction the series is going to go in now that Apollo and Phoenix have separate law offices. Also, nice Lamiroir tease at the end.

 

[TrueBlue]

Apollo vs Phoenix is especially where I didn't like how Phoenix was portrayed in this game.
Phoenix, out of all characters in this game, should know more about spirit channeling and spirit mediums than anyone else. He should have known that Atishon will not just kill Maya since she is the spirit medium and how much valuable she is for having such ability, yet he just played in Atishon's hand for the whole trial and even went far as putting false murder charge on Datz.

That just destroys the Phoenix's character to the core since he was always portrayed as a lawyer who always pursues the truth under any circumstances. Heck, he dealt much better with Maya's kidnapping in AA2. I think Phoenix should have been more clever than that, instead of having Apollo to bail him out of that situation.

Doesn't the revelation that Atishon needs Maya alive not come until after the trial starts? No one knew what the Founder's Orb entailed until after Apollo figured it out.

Until then Maya's situation was linked to whether or not Nick can get the orb back. Maya was thought to be expendable, hence the leverage that Atishon exploits.

Or am I misremembering?

 

[NotLiquid]

Doesn't the revelation that Atishon needs Maya alive not come until after the trial starts? No ome knew what the Founder's Orb entailed until after Apollo figured it out.

Until then Maya's situation was linked to whether or not Nick can get the orb back. Maya was thought to be expendable, hence the leverage that Atishon exploits.

Or am I misremembering?

From how I remember it that's pretty much the gist of it. Dr. Buff was said to be close to "cracking the secret" behind the orb but before then it was a mystery as to what the significance of it was other than it's symbolic value. I don't even recall Dhurke himself knowing how he was going to actually use it, he just knew he needed it as leverage. Up until the reveal of what the orb was actually meant for, Phoenix's hands were kind of tied much like how he was forced to stall for a miracle in 2-4.

 

[MrBadger]

Doesn't the revelation that Atishon needs Maya alive not come until after the trial starts? No one knew what the Founder's Orb entailed until after Apollo figured it out.

Until then Maya's situation was linked to whether or not Nick can get the orb back. Maya was thought to be expendable, hence the leverage that Atishon exploits.

Or am I misremembering?

Yeah, that's how it went down. Paul Atishon didn't even know the first thing about the orb, he just wanted it for Inga. As far as he knew, it was just a relic, and getting it back in exchange for Maya's life was a no brainer.

 

[kpjolee]

Continuing from what I wrote up there,

The problem is that Phoenix was already aware of the situation in Khura'in Kingdom and personally knows Rebel members, and Phoenix knows what Rebels are trying to do in the Kingdom. It would have made more sense for Phoenix to at least attempt to deal with Maya's kidnapping as well as help Rebels to obtain Founder's Orb for their cause. Instead, it just looked like Phoenix was just trying to get Maya back, for the price of putting false charge on Datz, and it would have meant big blow to the whole Rebel's plan in general. That is just completely out of character for Phoenix, who never sacrificed other's sake for his gain.

 

[Gvitor]

Finished the game. Gotta say, when I saw this thread title, I was expecting episode 5 to be more than it was. I liked it, though.

Chapter by chapter impressions:

Episode 1) The worst opener in the series, I think. Maybe not worse than I1-1, but that's just because I don't remember it at all. That said, I liked Rock-n-roll Jesus, and the bit where his slowly paced phrasing beeping matched his awesome music rhythm was pretty great. Payne asking for the death sentence was damn shocking.

Episode 2) Decent chapter. As soon as I saw the director guy, I told myself "that is Mr. Reus". Lo and behold, he was. Still an entertaining mistery. More like "how it was done" than "who did it and why".

Also, Nahyuta's debut. Worst prosecutor in the series. His encounter with Apollo really felt off after what would come later. I'm going to complain about too much breadcrumbs and foreshadowing later, but right now, we could've used more. The only thing episode 2 tells us about their relationship is that "they knew each other". They are brothers, dammit, who haven't seen each other in a long time and suddenly one of them changed drastically. Apollo's reactions and interactions with Nahyuta there should've been more significant.

Episode 3) Probably one of the best cases in the franchise. Maya's back and she's great. They played the 2-day investigation and trial nicely (the only case in the game that had more than 1 day!) And the ending to the case was awesome. I didn't predict the suicide at all, and the motivation being the screwed up DCAct was fantastic.

Episode 4) I think people are likely to shit on this a lot. I liked it. I think its biggest problem is misplacing. This should not be chapter 4. It has the build of a chapter 1 (aside from the lack of tutorializing) and it's disjointed from the rest of the game greatly. Also not having an investigation phase at this point was really weird. The mistery is nice and Athena's interactions with Blacquill are great. Blacquill is so much better than Nahyuta... that is here again for some reason. Should've been Klavier or another prosecutor.

Episode 5A) This right here made me think episode 5 could've been the series pinnacle. I really like 5B, but even so, that idea got scrapped as soon as it started. 5A is disjointed from 5B. 5A is more like Mia's case in AA3 or AA5's 4th case. They're bridges to the final case and should be separate.

Anyway, 5A is great. And it probably has the greatest moment in the game I saw someone earlier say that the Apollo x Phoenix trial was shown at a trailer, and I'm glad I either didn't see that trailer or didn't catch that scene. The moment when Phoenix shows up and say he's defending Paul Atishon and would face Apollo on the court is fantastic. The music played really well there and got me shivering. Purest of hypes. A civil case is something this series never had, and while a voice in the back of my mind kept saying (correctly) that the theme would shift to murder, it was still great. My only complaint is that I wished for the return of mastermind Phoenix Wright, and not blackmailed because of Maya Phoenix once again.

Episode 5B) Ga'ran fucked this up. I guess I was spoiled by AA5's final boss reveal catching me by complete surprise, but I wanted that they at least tried to create a good final boss for this game. They shifted blame around in the case for a bit, but from the very beginning it was clear it would end up being Ga'ran. Hell, she transformed into the incarnation of evil in the first seconds of the trial.

And while some of her acts were good and gave me Von Karma vibes (ordering the judge, making up shit on the spot, etc.) it was ultimately just the "evil manipulating everyone" trope. Her breakdown wasn't even satisfying. (though dethroning her was, and I didn't see her being powerless).

The best part of this case, was, of course, that Dhurke was already dead. That was a pretty damn good reveal, and after it I kept expecting them to top it off to end the case, but never did. The Dhurke reveal was awesome, and sad, and full of despair.

Lastly, Apollo staying in Khurain and Lamiroir's return. I was hoping they'd do the Apollo's full parentage reveal on court in this game, and I still hope it plays some major role in the next game instead of being just Phoenix in the room with Apollo and Trucy on a couch. But we'll see. As for Apollo staying in Khurain... he'll be back by 7-3 or 7-4 at best.

Final thoughts: I liked it. I think it does some things better than AA5, other worse (mainly the prosecutor). I was expecting more Maya, more characters in the general (so the suspect's list would be bigger) and cases with more than one day (we only got 6-3...), so that left me disappointed. But I was not expecting to enjoy the seànces and Rayfa nearly as much as I did (Rayfa is pretty damn great), and there two major twists executed really well. I'd fix the pacing, place chapter 4 before 3 with an investigation phase, separate chapters 5A and B, make B a 2-day case (splitting in the Dhurke reveal), and cut some breadcrumbs and foreshadowing on the latter half more. Some of 5B's reveals got too chewed on before we delivered the answers.

 

[Totakeke]

Just finished it as well. Definitely a significant improvement from AA4 and AA5 in terms of the story beats. Even though they felt a bit shoehorned compared to the original trilogy (Apollo's new past, another guy in Troupe Gramarye), they mostly got what are the ingredients to creating engrossing cases.

My main complaint was that the story beats didn't feel like it sync'ed well with the gameplay. Even in Case 3 which was definitely the best in terms of pacing and overall structure, the end of the cases usually felt like they just needed more twists for the sake of it. It feels like you've reached the peak of the case but the game wants to drag you down a bit before giving you closure. Case 1 dragged on with no real payoff, case 3 it felt a bit convoluted to have to go from Mrs. Inmee is not a killer to a killer then not really the killer when most of the cards have been shown, and also Case 5 where instead of Dhurke's death being a pivotal moment of unraveling the case... it just whimpered into Amara lying for Ga'ran and then having herself shot.

Also Apollo vs Phoenix could be done in so many different ways (I would have liked mastermind Phoenix, maybe wanting to unravel the secrets of the orb in public and not raise international uproar from Khu'rain) and yet we pretty much got the lamest version of Phoenix being threatened and being desperate. Agreed on the suggestions that Case 5 needed to be split and maybe Case 4 should have been a free dlc episode. I did really like the dynamics of Blackquill and Athena in Case 4 though, that animated gif in this thread is fantastic display of why.

I did actually like the cave spelunking feeling like an adventure game though, it felt fresh and made the investigation phase more interesting.

Nahyuta is terrible yeah, he did sour me on the first half of case 3. Although I didn't think Ga'ran was as terrifying. She didn't seem to be half of the mastermind von Karma was and her terror is mostly from her making up laws. That's okay though, still a pretty good villain by most standards, and she gets plus points for removing Nahyuta from his awful blathering. Agreed on Inga's plot being cut short, they could have made the transition from phase 1 (Dhurke's sacrifice) to phase 2 more interesting maybe?

I also agree on the transformations being used a bit too much, but again props to the character designers and the animation team, they really hit it out of the park. Uendo's design is amazing. Main regret was Nayna's transformation to Queen Amara was not a bit more subdued and natural. I really wanted to know how she disguised herself that way and what was with the ridiculous amount of hair?

All in all, it was a very good game, and I'd like to see the team improve even more in the next iteration. It definitely left me wanting for more, which isn't exactly what I could say when finishing 4 and 5.

 

[Totakeke]

One question which I don't think was fully answered.

Who was the he when Inga was talking to Dhurke on the phone about? Was that supposed to be a "she"?

 

[Magnet_Man]

One question which I don't think was fully answered.

Who was the he when Inga was talking to Dhurke on the phone about? Was that supposed to be a "she"?

I'm not sure of the specific scene but I remember Inga often alluding to Nahyuta as another hostage.

 

[FStubbs]

I need a little time to process everything in this game, but ...

Good grief I can't stop listening to Ga'ran's prosecutor theme. That's some epic final boss music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXD2t8WLMWw&feature=youtu.be

It added to her menacing status. I think she was honestly even more menacing than Manfred von Karma and Blaise DeBeste because she could make her own laws on the spot, but she was a darn good prosecutor anyway.

 

[SaikyoBro]

Just finished the game and there's a lot bouncing around in my head.

But holy shit, did anyone else catch the confirmation that Dick Gumshoe is still alive and still working for Edgeworth during the Phoenix Wright investigation part of Case 5? Talk about a relief, I've been worried about him since Apollo Justice.

Anyway, quick thoughts.

- Ema is endearing and harmless but Gumshoe and Fulbright were a lot more fun to work with. Knowing Gumshoe is still around I'd be pretty disappointed if AA7 comes and goes and we still don't see him in the flesh.

- Am I crazy, or was predicting the murderer pretty easy through most of the game? I could tell Retinz was suspicious just by his design and attitude, I suspected Beh'leeb Inmee and Geiru Toneido once I realized "hey, I've been playing this case for a couple hours and these two have contributed virtually nothing, I feel like they're probably the culprits", and while the blame shifted around a bit over the course of Case 5 I still ultimately knew the queen was going down as soon as her transformation was revealed. At this point I think part of it is just that by the 6th installment there are some pretty obvious recurring tropes for the killer in these games and they haven't done much to shake it up. That said, I still think a lot of the best cases in older AA games involve a lot of red herrings or someone throwing you off their scent, but that in this game it wasn't uncommon for someone who seemed suspicious at first glance to end up being behind the whole thing.

-I noticed the anime cutscenes are few and far between this time around. Obviously they weren't incredible but they were a good way to communicate some of the more powerful moments of Dual Destinies (Wright putting his jacket back on, bursting back into the courtroom, and facing off against Edgeworth were fantastic moments if you ask me). I guess the budget didn't have room for many of them because the only ones I remember were at the start of each case and a few during Case 5. Also, am I forgetting something or is that anime trailer that shows why Phoenix goes to Khura'in in the first place not available in game? That seems like a pretty giant chunk of backstory someone who hasn't seen that video would be missing...

- The 4th case seems to have been short, uneventful and completely meaningless. It feels like they realized "oh, I guess Athena should get a case where she's playable as well" and slapped it together late in development. It was nice seeing Blackquill again but otherwise it felt like a giant waste of time, especially since it takes place right before the finale.

- It's pretty lame we didn't get to see Edgeworth at the prosecutor's bench. I know they already did the big "Wright vs. Edgeworth revisited" thing in the last game, but to have him serve such a minor role was a bummer.

- I thought the final trial was fantastic and the ending was as satisfying as any other AA game to date. It ended on a really great note that makes it hard to be disappointed in the game as a whole. That being said...

- Trials and Tribulations, Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies all felt like every case mattered and ended up tying into the ending (Investigations did something like this too with the smuggling ring, didn't it?). This time around, as strong as the final case was, I feel like it almost entirely stood on its own. It still worked out, but it's hard not to be disappointed that there wasn't much of an overarching story since it seemed like it had become a series staple by this point.

So yeah, some mixed feelings and disappointments but ultimately the writing is still top-notch and seeing these characters I've loved for years see so much development is incredible. I think we're inevitably going to see Wright, Apollo and Edgeworth retired at some point but I hope we get at least a few more games out of these characters.

I think one of the most divisive parts of this game is going to be that it focuses so heavily on the whole Eastern mysticism thing. It's always been a part of the series, sure, but first and foremost it's always been a lawyer simulator. The change in scenery is refreshing in a way, but there are points where it feels like I'm wandering around in a fantasy land. Stuff like the magatama and bracelet in the older games felt more like quirks of the Ace Attorney universe, but having chanelling and other supernatural elements in almost every case almost start to break the experience at some points. The investigation scenes in the other games are so varied and creative, but in this game almost every locale is in Khurai'in and doesn't feel particularly distinct.

That's one reason why the ending doesn't leave me as excited for an AA7 as I should be. I think it makes complete sense for Apollo to stay behind and I'm really excited to see what happens with his character (I was disappointed when it looked like he was going to say "w-wait, I'm coming home with you guys!!", but I'm also worried that a big chunk of the next game is going to take place in Khura'in. I've seen enough of that place by now.

 

[Red Arremer]

I honestly think we're going to be done with Khura'in for the most part. We might see it return as a "Meanwhile, let's check up and see how's it going with Apollo" cameo-sorta case, where like... he's on the phone with Wright and tells him about this crazy case he had taken the other day or whatever.
But I doubt it will be anything else at this point, unless they make a proper spin-off series with Apollo, which I also can't really imagine them doing.

 

[spiritfox]

I'm just worried that Ema will be stuck with Nayuta for the rest of her career.

 

[Matt Attack]

- Trials and Tribulations, Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies all felt like every case mattered and ended up tying into the ending (Investigations did something like this too with the smuggling ring, didn't it?). This time around, as strong as the final case was, I feel like it almost entirely stood on its own. It still worked out, but it's hard not to be disappointed that there wasn't much of an overarching story since it seemed like it had become a series staple by this point.

Yeah, despite being arguably too wordy, both of the Investigations games had pretty strong overarching stories. They were both directed by Takeshi Yamazaki, who also had a directorial role with AA5 and AA6, which leads me to wonder why the latter two have had such a difficult time building a connected storyline between the cases. It's definitely something I hope improves in the inevitable AA7. Despite how much I have enjoyed playing as the different lawyers at Phoenix's agency, I think they might need to commit to a single main playable lawyer to help them focus on the narrative. Apollo being stuck on his home planet might help with this?

 

[SaikyoBro]

Sahdmadhi is probably my least favourite prosecutor in the entire series. Case 5 changes nothing about that opinion (since after all you don't really go up against him anyway). Like, I understand that Queen Gar'an controlled him by having custody of his sister, but there was no reason for him to be such a bag of wind. He makes super weak cases, and all he does to counter arguments is to hurl insults, his prayer beads, or his catchphrase of letting it go and moving on. The witnesses made better cases than him. And Blackquill who was on the defense bench did a better job at leading the trial. Speaking of which, I have no idea why they flew in Sahdmadhi for some random ass homicide case. Surely there are more prosecutors than Edgeworth, Blackquill and the random foreigner available? Even Gaspen Payne in case 1 felt more like a threat than this guy. I was especially disappointed because before the trial he first appears in, he's built up having the ability to read the karmic flow of a trial and such, and then he's just a shitty prosecutor. What an ass.

Just read the whole thread and I think I have to agree with this. I liked him well enough and I enjoyed learning about him and his backstory in Case 5 but good God did I get sick of running into him in every case. I was really interested when they were talking about his "reading the karmic flow" during trials when he first appeared, that sounds like a really unique gimmick for a prosecutor, but by the end of the game I had forgotten that they had even said that. It ended up meaning nothing and rarely coming up.

 

[secretanchitman]

I really liked this game, much better than Dual Destinies. Case 5 was spectacular as well - I liked the send-off of Apollo. Case 4 was the weakest but I liked all of the cases, with 5 being the best of course. The stakes are much higher too and it felt like every case mattered in some way (minus 4 which was just weird filler).

This game is really a sequel to Apollo Justice, even though Phoenix Wright played a big part in it. I wonder why - maybe because of sales?

Also the credits scene where Phoenix is talking to the ??? player - is that the mom of Apollo and Trucy from AJ (I forget her name)?

 

[Drago]

Finished the game last night. I really enjoyed it. I was expecting to dislike it even more than Dual Destinies but it was a super solid entry. It's not quite a top tier AA game for me but it's pretty close. It just has a bit too much holding it back.

Just gonna go crazy here with everything I can think of regarding case 5 and the game as a whole.

• This game really should have had Apollo's name on it. Hell AA5 and 6 really should have just been his games. I don't think I'm much of a fan of the rotating lawyer thing that they've been doing with the last 2 games. I mean, it's nice for a change of pace between cases but I think it also makes things feel unfocused at times in terms of a bigger picture. Anyways, this game really felt like an extremely satisfying conclusion for Apollo's story. My only problem with that is that it's a story they essentially built in one case rather than the conclusion of many across games, like Phoenix had. I thought he had a pretty solid start in AA4 with regards to the backstory of his family, but then all that falls to the wayside in 5 to make way for the return of Phoenix and another new lawyer leaving his story behind besides some throwaway tidbit about his best friend Clay, and then here we get a cool Troupe Gramarye case to tie back to AA4 for a bit and then a supermassive bombshell of backstory and exposition, character growth and huge emotional beats that really bring his character to new heights, maybe even higher than Phoenix... in one single (albeit lengthy as fuck) case. I would've much rather they spread all that development and backstory across a complete trilogy like they did with Phoenix instead of trying to do it all in one case, in a game that he shares with two other lawyers. Does that make sense? I really loved all the stuff they had going on with him in regards to his story, even if him being from Khura'in really came out of nowhere and felt like something they did only because the game was going to take place there. I just wish we could have seen this stuff given time to breathe.
  
  Either way Apollo came out on top with this game and I'm glad the devs had the courage to keep him in Khura'in at the end. I was soooo expecting a "Mr. Wright, there's no way I can leave you guys behind!" and I'm so glad that they didn't. Hopefully they don't ditch him entirely if they continue the rotating lawyers thing (I'm sure they will), but I'm pretty positive they would at least have a cameo or even a full case for him. Out of the three current lawyers he's easily my favorite so it would suck to lose him. Also, thank god they FINALLY acknowledged Lamiroir here, even if it was just a throwaway line in the credits... for now.
  
  
• Phoenix was pretty mishandled throughout the game. He felt like two completely different characters between cases 1/3 and case 5. It might have been just me but he felt like even more of a novice in case 1 and 3 than at points in the original trilogy. So much overreacting and freaking out to small things, acting like he doesn't know what he's doing, constantly saying to himself "I'm just gonna bluff it!"... seriously, I think he mentioned that he bluffs things more times in 6-3 alone than across the rest of the series combined. Hyperbole but it was like they really wanted to drive home that he bluffs.
  
  Meanwhile in case 5 we basically get something of a return to Hobo Phoenix in AA4. Someone who is calm, cool and collected, who obviously has years of experience under their belt and it shows, someone who doesn't easily buckle under pressure and has a good grasp of the situation. It was like someone else entirely and it's the kind of characterization I want for him post-AA4. Being able to both face off with him in a civil case, and have him, your mentor, on your side for the final case in the game was immensely satisfying and felt like everything coming full circle from AA4. There wasstill some weird characterization (mostly in the way he handled Maya's kidnapping - the way he was reacting didn't feel nearly as sincere as it did in AA2 for some reason, maybe the lack of being inside his head?) but I wish this kind of writing for him was consistent throughout the game.
  
  
• Athena is more of the same from Dual Destinies. I did like her more here though, can't really pinpoint why as she's pretty dang similar to how she was in DD. Maybe it's the lack of all the Dark Age of the Law baggage in AA5, who knows. I did think it kind of weird how they were labeling her as a novice rookie who needs help when she proved pretty capable on her own in the last game, but I digress. Blackquill remains a badass and one of the best prosecutors and the best thing from DD, him being on your side was my favorite thing about case 4. Seeing him in that role makes me wish for a defense attorney that has the confidence and sharp tounge of an antagonistic prosecutor, but that might feel too out of place, hehe.
  
  
• Nahyuta is the worst prosecutor this series has had. What a disappointment! He's just your average everyday protagonist with nothing that makes him standout. That karmic flow thing was such a throwaway line, what did it even mean or amount to? At the end of the day he is basically discount Edgeworth. His whole story is just his story from AA1 but with Apollo and Nahyuta in place of Phoenix and Edgeworth and with obviously higher stakes. Yet it's still done worse. Everything was primed for him to really break out in the final case too. I spent the whole game thinking about his relationship with Apollo and Dhurke and for it all to come to a head in that last trial. But then Ga'ran sidelines him for 95% of it and then at the end he's like "uh I did everything lol" then we immediately prove that wrong and then he's like "A DRAGON NEVER YIELDS" the end. Wasted potential.
  
  
• Ga'ran was kind of weak to me as a final villain. When she first appeared, and when she showed off how much of a fucking asshole she was, I got so pumped inside for that moment when you would finally bring her down. I knew it was gonna come. But then at some point in the case she just kinda gets put aside to make room for all the other endless revelations of that case where I just kinda forgot about her as a threat, and by the time the game finally got to taking her down, I lost interest. Plus her breakdown was pretty underwhelming. That final twist with her being unable to channel spirits and that being the reason she did everything got me good though.
  
  Basically case 5 here has that same problem that case 5 of AA5 had, though it's not as bad here - where they just have so many mysteries and revelations building up all at once that I find it hard to get invested. There is just way too much going on, it's all so complex and convoluted even, and it doesn't help that the pacing is fucked. These trials just go on and on and on and on and when there's that much to take in things just get lost on me. I mean, I think the narrative behind case 5 here is very strong, but it's so drawn out that it loses impact. At least, for me it did. Or maybe it was just because by the time things were starting to wrap up (after like 4 or 5 hours or even more in trial) it was already 3am and I just wanted some god damn sleep. I don't know why they just can't have these trials go past a single day. There isn't a single real 2-day trial in the entire game (and I don't count case 3 because the second day of trial was for a different murder), they just stuff everything into a single trial and it doesn't work for me.
  Still... good case and great conclusion.
  
  
• Just about all the new characters in the game were soooo good. This game might have the best roster of side characters in series history. This biggest standout and surprise though is Rayfa. I thought I was going to loathe her going into this game (and I really did during that terrible first trial) but from case 3 and beyond, when you get to investigate with her outside of court and seeing how she develops and reacts to all the shit going on with politics, she really came into her own and ended up as possibly my favorite new character in the game, her or Dhurke. Legit felt awful for her when all the shit in case 5 was going down. I do think it's kinda weird how Apollo completed her character arc and not Phoenix though, when she spent the majority of her time and character development with him. Odd.
  
  
• Speaking of Dhurke. What a phenomenal character they had here. The entire case 5 investigation day 1 with him and Apollo has got to be one of my favorite investigation sequences ever. Absolutely wonderful stuff they had going on here, and it was so great seeing the bond he had with Apollo and how he tried to reconnect. Seeing how much he cared for everybody and how much of a badass he was was excellent. Though not gonna lie, to go back to my first point, it's stuff like this that makes me wish we had just got an Apollo trilogy with the games all building up to this kind of case and meetup, instead of having all of this backstory show up in just one case.
  
  Also, fuck, DHURKE WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME. What a kick to the head that was, and I never saw it coming, not for a second. I saw Nayna=Amara and Ga'ran=big bad coming from miles away but shit, Dhurke being dead was a shot through the heart. That was masterfully done. The kind of twist that makes you want to start the whole thing all over again with it in mind.
  
  Props to Datz btw, one of the most entertaining characters the series has ever given us.
  
  
• I really liked the seances. When it comes to all the new gameplay gimmicks they add with every new game this felt like the most relevant one. Plus I think it's such a cool idea to be able to see a victim's final moments, and how they can actually use that to their advantage like they did so wonderfully in case 3. My only issue is how convoluted some of the contradictions in them were. Not gonna lie I had to resort to walkthroughs I was so stumped for some of them.
  Definitely wouldn't mind seeing them return in a future game though. Maybe in an Apollo case in AA7.
  
  
• Holy fucking flashbacks, let's talk about those. WHY WERE THERE SO MANY??? There were a couple of times where I was thankful for them being there but 9 times out of 10 they would just show me dialogue from literally one minute ago. And they take so much time to load too. What a baffling decision, do they think we're stupid and can't remember anything?
  
  
• Case 3 hosts I think the biggest convenient crucial info drop I've ever seen in the series. To the point where it kinda breaks the case a little bit. When Abbot Tahrust Abbot Tahrust says near the end of the case outside of testimony, something along the lines of "those Taiko drums are so destinctive! The killer is definitely Maya!" ... like, seriously what the fuck. No one speaks like that, not even in Ace Attorney. Why would you just randomly bring up the fucking instrument in the song. The instrument that Phoenix then uses to END the case. I usually let these conveniences slide but it was so blatant here that I had to point it out. Oi!
  
  
• Holy fucking flashbacks, let's talk about those. WHY WERE THERE SO MANY??? There were a couple of times where I was thankful for them being there but 9 times out of 10 they would just show me dialogue from literally one minute ago. And they take so much time to load too. What a baffling decision, do they think we're stupid and can't remember anything?
  
  
• I was very apprehensive about the setting and theme for this game before launch but after playing it I actually love everything that they did with it, lol. Especially using it's status as a kingdom to set up the rebellion plot point and how it used it's reliance on spirit channeling and divination seances to cause it all to happen. One of my biggest fears for this game ended up as one of my favorite things about it. Very nice.
  
  
• The entire game kind of has an issue of making the true culprit for all the cases kinda obvious. Case 2 is extremely blatant that Regitz is the killer, but even in case 3 Behleeb was my prime suspect for a while, and case 4 actually threw me off the longest. It wasn't until they mentioned the cut on the forehead and me checking if Geiru was covering her forehead that I put two and two together. And with case 5 it was obviously Ga'ran the second she transformed. Though I was legit shocked when it seemed like Amara really was the mastermind behind it all, only for the blame to go back to Ga'ran later.
  
  Really, for the first time in the series history I found myself seeing things coming. I generally play these games kinda braindead and all the revelations tend to shock me, but so much in this game was predictable. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it's because I'm getting smarter or anything. I think they just telegraphed much more than usual, and that there weren't all that many red herrings, especially before case 5.
  
  
• They totally overhyped Maya big time for this game, lol. She was a major character for case 3 but that's essentially her entire role in the whole game besides the background stuff she did in case 5. I'm pretty glad honestly, I was worried the majority of the game was gonna be fanwank "Wow Maya is finally back you guys!!" but I'm happy they had more restraint and only used her where necessary. Glad we finally caught up with her after so long.
  
  
• Before I forget, I'm glad they gave Trucy some importance in this game after basically dumping her in AA5, and I'm very happy to have Ema back, and also relieved that they didn't entirely ditch her AA4 persona, even if she was obviously much more joyful this time around. Still missing Gumshoe though. I'm sure he'll be back for 7 though if they continue their streak of returning characters, he's basically the only big one left that hasn't reappeared yet. And Franziska too but I'm nowhere near as eager for her return lol.
  
  
• Is it just me or were they leaning juuuust a bit too much into the whole "we work in the United States" thing? Like as if they kept bringing it up as a tounge in cheek joke. They've never put so much emphasis on where they live before this game, not even close. It felt like they were trying to be clever but it kind of failed for me. To anyone who played the original Japanese version, are they always mentioning they are from Japan too?
  
  
• The presentation in this game was off the fuckin charts. So many wonderful animations, grandoise cutscenes, exquisite backgrounds and all that stuff. One of, if not THE nicest looking games on the 3DS, incredible stuff on display.
  
  
• OST was just kinda there for me. It was good for sure but there wasn't much there that was truly memorable for me, besides the Khura'in themes of which almost all of them were fantastic.
  
  
• And last but not least, this game is the pinnacle of name puns in the Ace Attorney series. The guys real name was Reel Nehmu, holy fuckin' shit guys. I know this is a point of contention for some but I loved each and every pun. lol

Holy fucking textwall Batman, well I hope you enjoyed whatever I wrote about this game, it took me long enough to get it all out there. I think that's just about every thought I have on it in text, though I may be forgetting some other mindless anecdotes here and there. This is more than enough already.

Right now if you want me to rank these games it would go something like [2-4 >] AA1 > AA3 > AAI2 > AA6 > AA4 > (the rest of) AA2 >> AA5 >>>> AAI1. It probably isn't fair singling 2-4 out like that in my rankings, whateverrr. I expected this to be worse than AA5 but instead it was way better and I am happy. Hopefully it doesn't fall apart for me in the years to come like Dual Destinies did :^)

 

[Deleted member 465307]

Did anyone see the twist of Dhurke being channeled in advance? I mean, once they started going down that route, I obviously picked up what they were suggesting, but I didn't anticipate that twist at all. I had figured the game would end with the happy family of Dhurke, Amara, and the kids.

However, I did expect Ga'ran being the killer/overall villain (that was definitely made obvious throughout the game and that costume change just sealed the deal in a ridiculous way), not being the person in the channeling photo, being the arsonist, and also not having spiritual power. I'm not sure when I figured the spiritual power thing out because I definitely figured she had powers at some point, but then by the time the game revealed it, I'd already suspected it for a good amount of time.

I also suspected that Rayfa was Amara's child, that Amara was still alive, and that Amara was Nayna. I don't remember when I figured these out. Obviously Dhurke's weirdness about the photo of the baby was a huge hint for and basically the confirmation of Rayfa's identity, but I think I considered the possibility before that because I doubted that they'd have Rayfa be the daughter of two power-hungry, "evil" people. Or maybe that idea just came when I was considering Dhurke's comment. I think I suspected the Nayna/Amara thing as soon as something weird was shown to be going on with Nayna in that first Day 2 Investigation phase.

If there were other major Case 5 twists that I'm forgetting, I'm pretty sure I anticipated those, too. Dhurke's early death was the only one that really surprised me, so that's why I wonder if anyone anticipated that.

A couple questions:

1) How did Apollo know his father's first name? For some reason, I only remember his father's performing nickname being given in this game. Was "Jove" said at some point in this game or a previous one? I don't know why, but I barely remembered anything about Apollo's story going into this game except for him and Trucy somehow having the same mother.

2) Speculation: so should we next expect an Athena growth game next like this one was for Apollo? I guess we already got a lot of Athena's background and development in 5 so they couldn't quite do the same thing they did for Apollo in 6, but it seems like she's poised for her maturation story with Apollo likely gone for a bit.

 

[MrBadger]

Did anyone see the twist of Dhurke being channeled in advance? I mean, once they started going down that route, I obviously picked up what they were suggesting, but I didn't anticipate that twist at all. I had figured the game would end with the happy family of Dhurke, Amara, and the kids.

I picked up on it around the time they suggested Amara channeled someone other than Inga. Thought process basically went "Wait, so the bloodstain and the coffin...oh god." I was expecting it to end with Dhurke living. I thought he had one of those incurable diseases like a certain other character.

Also, the credits theme is so good.

 

[spiritfox]

I was surprised that Dhurke wasn't the victim at first. After all, dads in media have a tendency to die.

Also I think Jove's name was given by Dhurke?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Holy fucking flashbacks, let's talk about those. WHY WERE THERE SO MANY??? There were a couple of times where I was thankful for them being there but 9 times out of 10 they would just show me dialogue from literally one minute ago. And they take so much time to load too. What a baffling decision, do they think we're stupid and can't remember anything?


Case 3 hosts I think the biggest convenient crucial info drop I've ever seen in the series. To the point where it kinda breaks the case a little bit. When Abbot Tahrust Abbot Tahrust says near the end of the case outside of testimony, something along the lines of "those Taiko drums are so destinctive! The killer is definitely Maya!" ... like, seriously what the fuck. No one speaks like that, not even in Ace Attorney. Why would you just randomly bring up the fucking instrument in the song. The instrument that Phoenix then uses to END the case. I usually let these conveniences slide but it was so blatant here that I had to point it out. Oi!


Holy fucking flashbacks, let's talk about those. WHY WERE THERE SO MANY??? There were a couple of times where I was thankful for them being there but 9 times out of 10 they would just show me dialogue from literally one minute ago. And they take so much time to load too. What a baffling decision, do they think we're stupid and can't remember anything?

Agree with this post almost word for word (although I didn't see the Reus twist coming AT ALL - I was surprised so many people did) but this is a new level of brilliant meta posting

 

[Nocturnowl]

Agreeing with a lot of the Drago post, I'll throw in my thoughts later even if it retreads a fair amount of covered ground.

Also I think Jove's name was given by Dhurke?

He said it was his stage name so I was surprised that it ended up counting for his actual name.

 

[Lusankya]

Too bad the DLC case didn't actually happen.

 

[Eumi]

Ok so there was a moment in this game that I realised I was playing Apollo Justice 2 and nothing could have made me happier. Apollo is my favourite character in the series, so it was super disappointing that most of the cases in AJ were pretty bad. I'd kind of just resigned myself to Apollo being relegated to a side character from now on, so to have him take centre stage again was brilliant, as was the fact that he actually got closure to his story.

Some little details I loved:

-Dhurke explains where Apollo got his edgelord persona from in Dual Destinies so well. Coat, eyepatch, gruff attitude, there's no way he wasn't thinking of his father during DD's last case.

-Maya and Apollo having a conversation. It was brief but it's nice to see.

-The civil case was a great idea. It's always fun when Ace Attorney puts little twists on its conventions.

-The parallels between this and AA1 are great. Apollo was missing an Edgeworth, but now he has one in Sadmahdi. On top of that, he even overcame his own personal Von Karma. Despite that though, the extreme tonal and setting differences save it from feeling like a retread.

-Dhurke wanting to set up Trucy and Apollo was hilarious. I'm glad they decided to actually mention the siblings thing again, and looks like next time we see these characters they'll know. Plus, it did it without revealing the mother for those who never played Apollo Justice, which is nice since they have yet to re-release that game.

Issues:

-Case 4 was both bad and pointless. The team up with Blackquill was nice but I'd have rather they saved that for a later, more elaborate case.

-Why the hell did they not play Apollo Justice's pursuit theme at the end? Would have been a nice callback to the end of AA3, considering it was the end of Apollo's story. I'd care less if this game pursuit theme wasn't so... by the numbers.

-RIP Gavin, you never even got to see Herr Forehead go...


Overall, I'd actually say this is my favourite game in the series. It takes risks, but they almost all pay off. Whilst I do like Dual Destinies, this should have been Ace Attorney 5.

Now, bring back gumshoe for 7. There's a large, Gumshoe shaped hole in my heart that Ema just wasn't able to fill.

 

[Totakeke]

Aside from Inga's story being cut, I think there was also some court deliberations that were taken out.

The fact that Inga cannot see faces has to be a contradiction to why he's seeking the Founder's Orb. Then there was the black hair dye in his room that must have been placed there for some reason. Also it was pretty weird when the coup d'etat letter discovered in his room was not placed in evidence. And of course the safe having Rayfa's birthday, the five year old execution letters, and Rayfa's contradictions on how Inga is a kind father but everyone else does not.

I think they also missed an opportunity to strengthen the case 5 plot. Why exactly did Dhurke kept his own death a secret? What purpose did the secret serve to anyone? They could have said it was so that the trial would have proceeded with the assumption that they're still trying to defend him and save his life.

 

[Nocturnowl]

I just want to point out that the first half/prelude of Case 5 is great.
Paul Atishion and Sarge were the right amount of Ace Attorney wierdness when it comes to side characters.

 

[ULTROS!]

Case 5 was so crazy it's up there with AA3's final case.

If I'd rank it.

3 > 6 > 1 > 5 > 2 > 4 > AAI

I didn't like 5 as much for some reason though, maybe it was way over the top for me and cheesy as hell.

Also is this the longest AA game? I clocked over 37 hours.

 

[Totakeke]

Whatever happened with the Founder's Orb and that hiding the Holy Mother's face was a big deal? In the end, it wasn't even necessary for the final Ga'ran breakdown sequence as they could have asked her to channel anyone else.

Again it feels like the plot deserved a little more time in the editing room.


On another point, among all the gameplay mechanics, I never liked Athena's that much. It's the most fitting when used on the psychologically impaired and kids, which I give them the credit for in Case 4, but otherwise it often feels a bit manipulative. Have any prosecutor ever objected to the use of widget so far in the series? I think a more impartial role such as a detective would suit psycho-analysis more.

 

[Eumi]

Whatever happened with the Founder's Orb and that hiding the Holy Mother's face was a big deal? In the end, it wasn't even necessary for the final Ga'ran breakdown sequence as they could have asked her to channel anyone else.

Again it feels like the plot deserved a little more time in the editing room.


On another point, among all the gameplay mechanics, I never liked Athena's that much. It's the most fitting when used on the psychologically impaired and kids, which I give them the credit for in Case 4, but otherwise it often feels a bit manipulative. Have any prosecutor ever objected to the use of widget so far in the series? I think a more impartial role such as a detective would suit psycho-analysis more.

The founders orb was a double whammy, since just asking the queen to channel anyone would have been pointless since she could have just executed them, but asking her to channel the holy mother, fulfilling an ancient legend that would supposedly bring peace and prosperity to the country would get around that as she really couldn't refuse to do it. Had she said "no, I won't do this thing that has zero down sides" it'd come across super suspicious, as she would have no way to dismiss it without also dismissing her entire countries religion.

 

[NotLiquid]

Random thoughts:

- I've always maintained that Athena's Mood Matrix gets way too much of a bad rep in this series since as far as "odd" gimmicks go this is probably one of the more fun ones and they have some pretty unique ways of playing with observation (in a way that Divination Séances kind of try as well with the much more animated "senses" but bungles with heavily). I also really like how the Mood Matrix allowed them to bring in a character that has dissociative identity which would have been a bit trickier to do in any other circumstance.

- On that note Uendo is probably in my top 3 favorite characters introduced in this game. I love how his eccentric behavior at first comes across as a somewhat natural part of his performer charm but the twist that he's a stage performer with multiple personalities is an incredibly fun idea that feels like one of those crazy "impractical but possibly awesome" traits to have considering their occupation.

- I think Armie is a good contender for best written character in this game, and probably one of the best characters to exhibit classic Ace Attorney subversion. This is a character that goes from incredibly fun when you first meet them to incredibly tragic after you learn how they truly feel. I especially like how the revelation that she's a girl isn't something the game "obsesses" about (unlike a certain someone from AA5) and her personality doesn't actually change - the reveal happens, everyone reacts to it and then it's over. You'd expect a character of her type to be more of your typical tsundere once the reveal happens but instead she's just a bit of a no-nonsense girl who is clearly shut-in out of trauma, and is learning how to connect more with people around her.

The fact that Inga cannot see faces has to be a contradiction to why he's seeking the Founder's Orb.

Not quite. Even if Inga knew that channeling was what was necessary to gain the power the legend speaks of, he himself can't actually channel. Up until Case 5.1, no one actually knew what the truth behind the Orb was and what it entailed.

As for why Dhurke never said he was dead, it was pointed out that if he admitted to his death, the revolution would have lost all of it's morale. Sure, Apollo would have won the "battle" but he'd have lost the "war" if that makes any sense. Overthrowing the kingdom's rule and finding out the truth would only have worked if everyone assumed Dhurke was still alive up until the very end.

 

[Totakeke]

The founders orb was a double whammy, since just asking the queen to channel anyone would have been pointless since she could have just executed them, but asking her to channel the holy mother, fulfilling an ancient legend that would supposedly bring peace and prosperity to the country would get around that as she really couldn't refuse to do it. Had she said "no, I won't do this thing that has zero down sides" it'd come across super suspicious, as she would have no way to dismiss it without also dismissing her entire countries religion.

Considering it is a taboo to even show the Holy Mother's face, it would not be difficult to come out with various reasons as to why the Holy Mother should not be channeled, especially in court.

Not quite. Even if Inga knew that channeling was what was necessary to gain the power the legend speaks of, he himself can't actually channel. Up until Case 5.1, no one actually knew what the truth behind the Orb was and what it entailed.

As for why Dhurke never said he was dead, it was pointed out that if he admitted to his death, the revolution would have lost all of it's morale. Sure, Apollo would have won the "battle" but he'd have lost the "war" if that makes any sense. Overthrowing the kingdom's rule and finding out the truth would only have worked if everyone assumed Dhurke was still alive up until the very end.

For the first point, it isn't so much as he himself needed to channel the Holy Mother, but that once he gains spiritual power, he would still need to be a spirit medium (which is impossible given that he cannot see faces) to be the sovereign of Khu'rain. Unless we say, maybe the Orb would grant him powers to channel spirits without knowing their faces or the Orb would actually heal him of his prosopagnosia.

For the second point, the same sequence of events kind of happened during trial. We found out he was dead, Datz was devastated, at then Apollo prosecuted Ga'ran to complete the revolution. Hence why I said that keeping his death a secret should be what motivates the continuation of the trial, but that wasn't hit on as a plot point. Ga'ran could have created another law about preventing trials on the deceased for example.

 

[NotLiquid]

For the first point, it isn't so much as he himself needed to channel the Holy Mother, but that once he gains spiritual power, he would still need to be a spirit medium (which is impossible given that he cannot see faces) to be the sovereign of Khu'rain. Unless we say, maybe the Orb would grant him powers to channel spirits without knowing their faces or the Orb would actually heal him of his prosopagnosia.

For the second point, the same sequence of events kind of happened during trial. We found out he was dead, Datz was devastated, at then Apollo prosecuted Ga'ran to complete the revolution. Hence why I said that keeping his death a secret should be what motivates the continuation of the trial, but that wasn't hit on as a plot point. Ga'ran could have created another law about preventing trials on the deceased for example.

It's possible that he saw of it in that way. If he didn't though, that's partially why Inga's coup was staged on a highly false presumption that he would never actually learn the truth of. Inga was planning on straight up overthrowing the kingdom - and I'm pretty sure he'd have a complete disregard to the actual stipulations of it's monarchy. The same arguably goes for Dhurke, except unlike Inga, he was motivated by selflessness rather than selfishness. It's also possible that Inga knew that Ga'ran didn't have any spiritual power, but was waiting for the right moment to make that clear and seize the power. Either way, Inga's plan, while flawed, was still a threat to Ga'ran's cover. Personally I don't consider the full details of it to be that important mostly because when you get down to it, even though he's the victim, the case isn't really "about" him if that makes any sense.

And to continue off of Dhurke keeping his death a secret; it is hit as a plot point and is precisely what motivates the trial to finish. If he admitted to his death early on there would have been no trial because there wouldn't have been a suspect. By allowing himself to be a suspect he manages to allow Apollo a venue to pursue the truth. He also wanted to teach Apollo the importance of his creed of "a dragon never yields" and the importance of staying the course even when faced against the hardest adversity. It was a truth Apollo needed to face on his own.

As for Ga'ran and the laws bit, she could have created more laws but keep in mind that up until the very end she tried to keep the kingdom running under a completely false sense of security through ignorance.

 

[Totakeke]

Keeping in mind that I'm arguing for better plot threads, not that I need everything explained to me and everything tied together neatly. So yes, you can make up all kinds of scenarios that the current state of the plot works, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

It's possible that he saw of it in that way. If he didn't though, that's partially why Inga's coup was staged on a highly false presumption that he would never actually learn the truth of. Inga was planning on straight up overthrowing the kingdom - and I'm pretty sure he'd have a complete disregard to the actual stipulations of it's monarchy. The same arguably goes for Dhurke, except unlike Inga, he was motivated by selflessness rather than selfishness. It's also possible that Inga knew that Ga'ran didn't have any spiritual power, but was waiting for the right moment to make that clear and seize the power. Either way, Inga's plan, while flawed, was still a threat to Ga'ran's cover. Personally I don't consider the full details of it to be that important mostly because when you get down to it, even though he's the victim, the case isn't really "about" him if that makes any sense.

If you ignore the traditions of the monarchy in your coup, then you wouldn't have to go to such lengths to obtain a relic such as the Founder's Orb to begin with.

They could have played an angle where Ga'ran was smart to have Inga as her Justice Minister because he couldn't have overthrown her the way she overthrew Amara.

And to continue off of Dhurke keeping his death a secret; it is hit as a plot point and is precisely what motivates the trial to finish. If he admitted to his death early on there would have been no trial because there wouldn't have been a suspect. By allowing himself to be a suspect he manages to allow Apollo a venue to pursue the truth. He also wanted to teach Apollo the importance of his creed of "a dragon never yields" and the importance of staying the course even when faced against the hardest adversity. It was a truth Apollo needed to face on his own.

I think for this point we're kind of on an agreement because you're saying what I'm saying. Then what I want is the game to emphasize it more. In the game, Dhurke's death is a huge revelation yes, but it didn't feel like it contributed anything else than discovering he is dead.

 

[MrBadger]

Does anybody else absolutely love the thought routes? The music, the flashy effects and their placement in this game are just great. I liked them in Dual Destinies too but this game seemed to use them better.

I just want to point out that the first half/prelude of Case 5 is great.
Paul Atishion and Sarge were the right amount of Ace Attorney wierdness when it comes to side characters.

Paul Atishon worked well, because he was basically a cookie cutter Ace Attorney villain. Also his name is the worst pun in the game. That whole segment was really fun. I was a bit sad we didn't see more of Armie.

 

[Deleted member 465307]

I think I've concluded that I preferred AA5's concept of the ultimate villain better than AA6's, but AA5's villain was handled and written worse. In AA6, I think the villain was handled fairly well, but at their core, I didn't enjoy their concept or what implications they had for the overall game as much.

 

[Aveyn Knight]

Does anybody else absolutely love the thought routes? The music, the flashy effects and their placement in this game are just great. I liked them in Dual Destinies too but this game seemed to use them better.

I love them, although I felt the opposite--I preferred the ones in DD. Aside from Case 5 Part 2, none of the thought process revelations shocked me like the ones in DD.

That said, it's been 3 years since I played DD, so it could be my poor memory. I'm currently replaying DD in chronological order (starting with case 2), so we'll see...

 

[MrBadger]

I love them, although I felt the opposite--I preferred the ones in DD. Aside from Case 5 Part 2, none of the thought process revelations shocked me like the ones in DD.

That said, it's been 3 years since I played DD, so it could be my poor memory. I'm currently replaying DD in chronological order (starting with case 2), so we'll see...

Well it might be my poor memory affecting my opinion. The only one I remember in Dual Destinies being especially powerful was "

Spoiler

ATHENA STABBED THE REAL KILLER

" in case 5. This game used them better as "killing blows" rather than as another revelation. Especially against Paul Atishon and Gah'ran.

 

[spiritfox]

I love them, although I felt the opposite--I preferred the ones in DD. Aside from Case 5 Part 2, none of the thought process revelations shocked me like the ones in DD.

That said, it's been 3 years since I played DD, so it could be my poor memory. I'm currently replaying DD in chronological order (starting with case 2), so we'll see...

Case 3's 'It was a suicide' was the only one that surprised me.

 

[Keratay]

He said it was his stage name so I was surprised that it ended up counting for his actual name.

Jove is his real name. His stage name is something else, mentioned when Datz is talking about him, I believe, and was all Durhke knew 23 years ago which was why it was so hard to find out more about him.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Jove being a travelling minstrel was a nice touch. Now we know where the chords of Justice came from.

 

[Deleted member 465307]

I was surprised that Dhurke wasn't the victim at first. After all, dads in media have a tendency to die.

Also I think Jove's name was given by Dhurke?

He said it was his stage name so I was surprised that it ended up counting for his actual name.

I'm pretty sure the stage name Dhurke gave was not Jove (but did start with a J). For some reason, I thought it was something else and was clearly a stage name. But I really can't remember when the names were given. When Apollo gave the "true name," I looked at the evidence and the photo description said his name was Jove. But I really didn't remember that always being that way.

 

[Lusankya]

Athena Cykes vs Professor Layton Justice

 

[Magnet_Man]

Does anybody else absolutely love the thought routes?

I have a love / hate relationship with them. One the one hand, holy shit they're exciting to watch and experience. The music, the 3D effects, the explosive sounds, and the visualization of the character deep in thought working through the issues.

On the other hand, the thought route sequence does something that I've disliked about all of Yamazaki's take of Ace Attorney where the thing you present or need to do is spelled out for you or all but outright told to you by another character. The thought routes, while exciting, are at their core the game telling you the twist. These twists are impressive but they should be things the player realizes on their own for a better experience. For example, in 3-1 when

Spoiler

Mia has to prove Dahlia was going to poison Phoenix. All she says is that Dahlia stole poison so she was planning on killing Phoenix with it. How was she going to do it? It's up to the player to remember the information at the start of the case where we learned that the cold medicine went missing that morning. The player then makes the connection on their own with Mia giving a more blatant hint only if the incorrect evidence is shown

. The game should subtly guide the player to realizing that twist but the thought routes instead tell it to us via three options where two choices are clearly false / for humorous effect. The multiple choice lead-in to plot details should be given mid-game, not be the vehicle for the conclusion.

 

[Niraj]

Finished last night, I really liked it overall. I'd put it behind 1 and 3, but probably ahead of the other main games. Very smart subtitle for the game, it didn't even register to me that it might be referring to Apollo.

Case 1: not particularly special, but a decent enough introduction to the Divination Seances and some of the characters of Khura'in. Was fun to see Gaspen Payne again and it was legitimately surprising that he was pushing for the death penalty for Phoenix. Pees'lubn Andistan'dhin (whose name made me groan) was a funny first villain, I liked how they incorporated the musical aspect (with Payne joining in as well lol). Not spectacular, but pretty inoffensive.

Case 2: Thought this one was fun, I was glad to have Trucy play a decent role again after being sort of non-existent in AA5. This one was pretty predictable though, figured out the twin aspect and it was way too obvious for me that Roger Retinz was Mr. Reus. Even knowing that though, it didn't really dampen my enjoyment, though it was a bit silly that they shoehorned Reus into Troupe Gramarye, but not a big deal. I liked how Apollo saved the Agency from getting shut down, was a nice way to show how he has improved as a lawyer.

Case 3: Great case. I liked how Maya's return wasn't really overblown or anything, felt pretty natural to me. They could have had a lot less restraint than they did. I honestly didn't expect Tahrust to have committed suicide and I had been expecting his wife to have been the sole culprit, thought that was a nice twist. Maya channeling Tahrust was pretty great, showing that her training has paid off and also was a solid wtf moment. Rheel Neh'mu is so bad (but so good) lol. This was easily the better of Phoenix's two cases and one of the two best in the entire game. Fit in well with the overarching story as well, establishing a lot of the rebel characters and further showing why the DC act was so bad.

Case 4: Not a bad case, but it really did feel like the intro case to a game centered around her more than one that organically fit in with the rest of them. It's also super short. This is another one that had a super obvious culprit, but I liked how they were characterized so it didn't hurt my enjoyment. Uendo was fantastic, really liked the multiple personalities reveal. Thought Bucky was a decent defendant as well, though he didn't really get to do too much. Blackquill was great. I really liked him from AA5, and I think they used him in this case pretty well, it certainly was better than Klavier's inclusion in AA5. A few people mentioned that first person shaking scene, I also thought that was pretty cool. I liked his interactions with Nahyuta as well.

Case 5: I was surprised at first that Apollo was the lead, but ultimately glad. I really was feeling like it was a great sendoff for him, so I'm glad they did end the game with him staying in Khura'in. Really great case as well, and a pretty long one. I liked all the parts with Dhurke, who was easily one of the better characters in the game. When Phoenix tells you he's going up against you in court, that was super surprising for me, and while his characterization was a bit off during the case itself, I did think it was a cool moment overall. I also thought it was great that he was in the supporting role during the main trial. Paul Atishon was a great weasel, I liked his breakdown too, definitely a classic. Thought the whole story with Sarge was really well done, nice bit of emotional resonance there.

I did consider that Dhurke was being channeled, and thus had been killed, but kind of dismissed it as a "Nah, there's no way they're going to go there" moment. I was really surprised that not only was that the case, but he had been dead the entirety of the case. Really well done twist. Apollo's perceive ability is pretty lame, but I'd be surprised if more people didn't like his character after playing this game. They really did him...justice. The queen's makeover was pretty nuts, as was the Nayna->Amara transition. I really got a good laugh out of the part where all those animals came up to Amara and it cut to Apollo, who said something to the effect of, "where did all those animals even come from?" I don't have many complaints off the top of my head. It was a bit long though, maybe they could have broken up the first half and the second half into two separate cases, but not a big deal. Oh, the Queen's breakdown could have been a bit better. Thought it was a bit tame. When Apollo said he was going to stay in Khura'in at the very end, I thought Phoenix would finally mention that Apollo and Trucy were siblings. When he didn't, really felt like that plot point had totally been dropped, so it was nice to have the Lamiroir tease at the end.


General complaints:

-This is sometimes a problem with many of the games in the series, but sometimes it feels like you can present multiple things to expose the same contradiction, but the game really wants you to just present one thing. Not a huge deal since I'm used to it, but was annoying a couple times.

-Flashbacks were a bit overwrought and repetitive. I can appreciate some use of them just for effect, but we don't need to see the same shit over and over and over.

-The game really should have included Apollo more throughout the entirety of the game, just for a bit more story cohesion. This was clearly more of an Apollo Justice story than a Phoenix Wright one.

-Nahyuta was pretty dull. I liked his theme though.

-Soundtrack was a bit of a letdown. There were good points, but overall I was hoping for more, I guess.

Not huge complaints, and I think the positives far outweighed the negatives for me. Some really great new characters this time around too. Datz and Dhurke were by far the best for me, but I also liked other characters quite a bit like Rayfa, Uendo, Bucky, Paul Atishon, Armie, Ahlbi, etc. Some really great animations and mannerisms as well. Good use of returning characters as well, Ema was nice to see again and she was much better than she was in AA4, and it was nice to see Maya, Blackquill, Edgeworth, and Gaspen Payne again. Overall, had a lot of fun with it, and felt like it was one of the better games in the series. Big improvement over AA5 in my opinion, and the best of the second "trilogy."

 

[MrBadger]

I have a love / hate relationship with them. One the one hand, holy shit they're exciting to watch and experience. The music, the 3D effects, the explosive sounds, and the visualization of the character deep in thought working through the issues.

On the other hand, the thought route sequence does something that I've disliked about all of Yamazaki's take of Ace Attorney where the thing you present or need to do is spelled out for you or all but outright told to you by another character. The thought routes, while exciting, are at their core the game telling you the twist. These twists are impressive but they should be things the player realizes on their own for a better experience. For example, in 3-1 when

Spoiler

Mia has to prove Dahlia was going to poison Phoenix. All she says is that Dahlia stole poison so she was planning on killing Phoenix with it. How was she going to do it? It's up to the player to remember the information at the start of the case where we learned that the cold medicine went missing that morning. The player then makes the connection on their own with Mia giving a more blatant hint only if the incorrect evidence is shown

. The game should subtly guide the player to realizing that twist but the thought routes instead tell it to us via three options where two choices are clearly false / for humorous effect. The multiple choice lead-in to plot details should be given mid-game, not be the vehicle for the conclusion.

See, I find that a lot of the time the thought route is used in a place where the character has to think on their feet and there isn't really a way to reach the conclusion via evidence. Like I'm not sure how from a gameplay perspective you'd be able to present both the thought routes of case 5. Showing the character's inner thought process is just a more exciting storytelling tool, and neither of those moments were especially big twists.

But I do agree that there are too many instances of the modern games spelling the twist out for you, the most insulting example being the final case of Dual Destinies.

Spoiler

Who's the only character it could be? Also, REMEMBER THAT SUSPICIOUS THING DETECTIVE FULBRIGHT DID?

It was frustrating because it was perfectly possible to figure it out just by looking through all the profiles. Investigations 2 did that whole segment better because it was more on the player to remember

Spoiler

who Knightley's only friend was.

The Dhurke twist was better executed because there was still some level of figuring it out required, but it could have done without "wait, was there another victim?" before you get the chance to present the bloodstain.

 

[The Bankslammer]

man, so much dense discussion in here already, ahaha. i feel like a lot of my opinions have already been pretty well reflected.

i actually liked AA5 a good deal, but as i played AA6, i couldn't help but think about how much more well handled... pretty much everything is here. well, except prosecutors. case 4 reminded me how much more fun a character blackquill is than nahyuta, and while it was really nice to have a final boss prosecutor again, ga'ran went down super quickly once the finger was pointed at her.

AA4 and 5 didn't know what the fuck to do with apollo so gosh it was nice to have him as the focus here as opposed to shoving some contrived backstory into phoenix's story. woulda been nice if they went all the way and just made it an apollo game, but... eh, this'll do!

oh and while i definitely agree with the 4-5-6 trilogy not wrapping up anywhere near as neatly as the 1-2-3 trilogy, i mostly blame 4 for being such a mess

 

[Deleted member 465307]

Very smart subtitle for the game, it didn't even register to me that it might be referring to Apollo.

Oh. Oops. Haha. Now I have to think more about what the "spirit of Apollo" would be. I guess it comes down to that time where Prosecutor Sahdmahdi said he had the spirit of (or was) both a dragon and a phoenix. I thought that line was incredibly sweet and changed how I thought about Apollo, so I guess that could be it. I suppose it has a double meaning: the spirit of justice, both Apollo and as a concept, is unyielding and can rise from the ashes of injustice and unfair circumstances fresh and anew.

Now I need to think more about what Dual Destinies was supposed to be about...Simon and Athena's connection?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Oh. Oops. Haha. Now I have to think more about what the "spirit of Apollo" would be. I guess it comes down to that time where Prosecutor Sahdmahdi said he had the spirit of (or was) both a dragon and a phoenix. I thought that line was incredibly sweet and changed how I thought about Apollo, so I guess that could be it. I suppose it has a double meaning: the spirit of justice, both Apollo and as a concept, is unyielding and can rise from the ashes of injustice and unfair circumstances fresh and anew.

Now I need to think more about what Dual Destinies was supposed to be about...Simon and Athena's connection?

DD seemed like it was testing the waters with several concepts after the poorer reception of the fourth game. Phoenix is back to appease fans of the original trilogy, there's a new defense attorney to start a new story for new fans, and Apollo isn't forgotten either. If anything it was a game about Phoenix getting back on his feet, expanding his law office, and also an introduction to Athena and her backstory. I enjoyed DD a great deal, but I'm glad SoJ feels more focused in that regard, aside from case 4, of course.

 

[Kneefoil]

I don't dislike the thought routes, but I wouldn't miss them if they weren't there.

The Logic mechanic in Ace Attorney Investigations served the same purpose, but I think it was done much better. With Logic the player is sometimes forced to actually think a bit instead of just picking the only answer that makes sense, and thinking before acting is further incentivised by dealing out penalties for wrong choices.