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[lush]

Transgender athlete Hannah Mouncey has been blocked from taking part in next year's Australian rules football professional women's league.

In barring her from Wednesday's AFLW 2018 draft, the AFL said it took into consideration "transgender strength, stamina, physique, along with the specific nature of the AFLW".

The ruling is for the 2018 event only.

The AFL Players Association (AFLPA) accused the AFL of lacking "clear guidelines for transgender players".

Its statement added: "No athlete should face such confusion around their eligibility for an elite competition just days out from a draft."

Mouncey, who is 6ft 2in and weighs 15st 8lb, has played eight matches and kicked 17 goals for Ainslie in the Canberra Women's League.

She is allowed to nominate herself for future AFLW drafts and play in other Australian rules football competitions.

Mouncey said in a statement: "While I am extremely disappointed with the AFL's decision regarding my participation in Wednesday's AFLW draft, I thank them for the genuine way in which they approached my situation.

"Despite not being able to take part in the draft, the AFL has given me the all clear to play for Ainslie next year in the AFL Canberra competition for which I am very grateful and look forward to doing in 2018, before hopefully being able to nominate for next year's draft".

The AFLW's second season starts in February.

The decision was made by an AFL subcommittee, which took into account "the stage of maturity of the AFLW competition, its current player cohort and Ms Mouncey's individual circumstances".

Source: http://m.bbc.com/sport/41648914

The AFL waited until the day before the draft to announce after knowing of her intent as far back as June. Horribly flawed reason to block her from entering as well. Bad look all around if you're trying to position yourself as an entity that cares about inclusiveness and equality.

 

[Heckler456]

Is it wrong to say that she would have a biological advantage over her competitors?

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

It's like the transgender fighter, say what you want, she still has a physical advantage over the competition because of the gender she was born as. It's unfair to her, not unfair for her competition.

She was competing in Australian international rep level men's Sport only last year too.

 

[BunnyBear]

Source: http://m.bbc.com/sport/41648914

The AFL waited until the day before the draft to announce after knowing of her intent as far back as June. Horribly flawed reason to block her from entering as well. Bad look all around if you're trying to position yourself as an entity that cares about inclusiveness and equality.

Um, no. It was the right decision.

This doesn’t make the AFL a bunch of bigots, they balanced the need to accomodate diversity with fairness to other players.

Also, the AFLW has not got a seperate leadership entity. The decision was made by the AFL. Get your facts straight.

 

[dofry]

Is it wrong to say that she would have a biological advantage over her competitors?

In my opinion, no. But, in general this is super tricky because changing genders that you identify with is perfectly fine. But at the same time it brings advantages physiologically in women’s sports from male ones which is not good for other women that do not have that. So, there should be some rules. Still, tricky tricky tricky.

 

[Spinifex]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

 

[Yeoman]

Source: http://m.bbc.com/sport/41648914

The AFL waited until the day before the draft to announce after knowing of her intent as far back as June. Horribly flawed reason to block her from entering as well. Bad look all around if you're trying to position yourself as an entity that cares about inclusiveness and equality.

But a good look if you care about sportspersonship and fairness.
Inclusiveness shouldn't always be the main goal, especially in athletics.

We need to consider the integrity of the sport.
Mouncey is 6 foot 2 and weighs 100kg:

They might end up injuring the other players.

 

[lush]

Um, no. It was the right decision.

This doesn’t make the AFL a bunch of bigots, they balanced the need to accomodate diversity with fairness to other players.

Also, the AFLW has not got a seperate leadership entity. The decision was made by the AFL. Get your facts straight.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the reasoning absolutely comes across as trans-misogyny.

Should cis-gendered women that are 6'2" 220lb be barred from the draft as well for the safety of the players?

Also, note how I used AFL in the quoted post. Get your facts straight.

 

[Tapioca]

https://imgur.com/a/p44UJ
She is going to have some vast biological advantages over biological women.

 

[Wafflecakes]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Not really.

Being trans does not take away basic size and weight advantages.


There is no easy answer to this question, and honestly I can see it either way.

 

[Sinfamy]

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the reasoning absolutely comes across as trans-misogyny.

Should cis-gendered women that are 6'2" 220lb be barred from the draft as well for the safety of the players?

The only way a female athlete will achieve those stats is with steroids.

 

[Heckler456]

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the reasoning absolutely comes across as trans-misogyny.

Should cis-gendered women that are 6'2" 220lb be barred from the draft as well for the safety of the players?

Also, note how I used AFL in the quoted post. Get your facts straight.

I just looked up who the tallest woman in rugby is, and she's 6'4'' at 180lbs. Maybe there are 220 lbs female players, but... I don't know man.

 

[PaulloDEC]

The reasoning I heard given on the radio this afternoon was basically along the lines of "She's much bigger and stronger than the women she'd be up against, many of whom would be inexperienced in addition to being at a physical disadvantage."

Which seems at least logical, as these things go.

 

[Ragnaroz]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Physiologically, she is still mostly male. There are other things to consider here, not just political correctness. A lot of people have already said that it would be unfair to other competitors and you can't really argue against that.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

But a good look if you care about sportspersonship and fairness.
Inclusiveness shouldn't always be the main goal, especially in athletics.

We need to consider the integrity of the sport.
Mouncey is 6 foot 2 and weighs 100kg:

They might end up injuring the other players.

Contact sport too.

 

[Pluto]

Is it wrong to say that she would have a biological advantage over her competitors?

No, that's correct, she does have an advantage. But many cisgender people have biological advantages over others too.

 

[seanoff]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

Its also a protection for those that were born and matured without all the extra muscle mass that being a man for 26 years would bring.

She’s a big girl and a lot of that size and probably speed and power comes from the fact that she was a man for 95% of her existence. Also she was playing international sport as a bloke last year.

It wouldn’t have been an easy decision nor one taken lightly. Let’s not accuse people of just making decisions because they feel trans people are unworthy. They have a duty of care to the other players and that would have been a factor in the decision.

 

[KojiKnight]

The problem is less that this happened, but the fact that it took them 4 months to give her a proper response, and only finally did so days before the draft. That's not treating someone with respect, that was ignoring her and hoping she'd take the hint/go away.

 

[Wafflecakes]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

So ideally we wouldn't have women's sports?

...because no team would willingly put men up against women, and even if they did it would get ugly, at least in the contact sports.

 

[airjoca]

I don't know why these things are even a discussion. The integrity of the sport and the competition comes first. I'd never allow any transgender man > woman in female sports. Especially in contact sports. It's too dangerous and unfair.

 

[AAK]

One solution is to generally allow steroids and other PED's for athletes that compete.

That allows inclusivity and an even playing field.

 

[Diprosalic]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

That makes no sense. If you make mixed sports where both genders can play with no quota then there would be no woman playing and if you do it with a quota liked mixed tennis you are basically where you started.

 

[TatteredHat]

These things should be judged on a case by case basis. In this case I don't think their decision is unreasonable, but they should have been faster in delivering it.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

So ideally we wouldn't have women's sports?

...because no team would willingly put men up against women, and even if they did it would get ugly, at least in the contact sports.

yeah, that's why i said maybe add a third category and why it would probably never happen...

but i'm sure it would be cool to see men vs women in sports like tennis for exemple

So no i'm not for erasing women sports, i just said that for everyone to be included, that would be the best "fair" solution (i know it's not fair, but you get my point)

That makes no sense. If you make mixed sports where both genders can play with no quota then there would be no woman playing and if you do it with a quota liked mixed tennis you are basically where you started.

of course it makes no sense, i know it, and that's why i said it would never happen... but for transgender, there's always gonna be an advantage or disadvantage for someone, that why i said it's tricky as fuck!

i don't even watch sports i just want everyone to enjoy their sports, and how do you do that in these cases?

maybe for solo sports don't allow it but for team sports allow it? Since there's always gonna be someone better than the others in a team, in the end, i don't know, i don't have the solution, i'm just saying dumb idea that pop up in my mind

 

[Wafflecakes]

One solution is to generally allow steroids and other PED's for athletes that compete.

That allows inclusivity and an even playing field.

Dumbest post I have read in a while, and would solve absolutely nothing.

 

[Heckler456]

No, that's correct, she does have an advantage. But many cisgender people have biological advantages over others too.

I guess unfair advantage is more apt.

 

[SapientWolf]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

I don't think it's that simple. She had the benefit of 26 years of male hormones, and she's still incredibly muscular. A longer cool off period doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[MontyBrown]

This is clearly the right decision. It's not transphobic to come to the conclusion they did.

 

[danthefan]

It's a shame for Hannah but the right decision was made.

 

[CaviarMeths]

I think there needs to be specific rules in place for this so that Hannah and other transgender athletes don't get strung along like this.

But I can't disagree with the AFLW's ruling. Athleticism is physiological.

 

[toddhunter]

The problem is less that this happened, but the fact that it took them 4 months to give her a proper response, and only finally did so days before the draft. That's not treating someone with respect, that was ignoring her and hoping she'd take the hint/go away.

Look at it this way. For many years there has been a problem in junior sport with kids from islander descent playing contact games like rugby league. These kids are sometimes twice the height and three times the weight. They have a massive biological advantage and kids playing against them have been injured or at least discouraged.

Should they be excluded from playing or matched against weight? Because that would mean 9 year olds playing against adults nobody has really worked it out yet.

So when I see an issue like this taking a long time to sort out I can understand it. There are no real easy answers here and I would like to think the delay was them trying as hard as they could to sort it out properly. As it stands, this seems like a bit of a non answer, but a "wait and see" for another year.

I feel sorry for the girl involved, but I can also understand the decision given woman's AFL is still very much in the early days. Maybe in a couple of years if things continue to progress towards professionalism it'll become a non issue at the very top level at least.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

No, that's correct, she does have an advantage. But many cisgender people have biological advantages over others too.

There's "advantage" and then there's "no one of your sex in the preceding and proceeding century will ever reach this level of physicality even with performance enhancers."

I think I found this stat during a previous discussion about track, but thousands of high school male athletes are currently faster than the fastest women of all time. Those are not the kind of advantages that you can overcome by trying hard or telling people to "get over it", especially in a contact sport. It would be like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring with a welterweight, someone could get killed.

It is terribly unfortunate that cases like these end up with athletes ostracized, but the alternative - completely trivializing female sex accomplishment in sport - is inevitable if you allow completely co-ed leagues or place no practical limitations on gender reassignment advantage.

Edit: even Serena would only be a below average player in coed tennis.

 

[suedester]

One solution is to generally allow steroids and other PED's for athletes that compete.

That allows inclusivity and an even playing field.

What the fuck kind of solution is that? Holy shit.

 

[G.ZZZ]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

It will never happen cause women will never compete then. Gratz, you fucked up 50% of the world population that want to compete in sports.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

That sounds fair enough to me honestly.

She's clearly got a biological advantage and aussie rules is a very physical sport.

I'm okay with this.

 

[teacupcopter]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

It really isn't. Trans rights in sport, especially for contact sports, is a pretty contentious issue and even the player in question said she understood the process despite being dissapointed in the outcome.

Watch an AFL game if you haven't, you can see why this isn't as cut and dry as like say, an athletics track.

Despite that- I mean even then it's just such a hot button issue. Much of the hate against gay, trans, is so mental and societal, based on lies and bullshit. Much of the lack of acceptance is more in not accepting them in the workplace, in homes, in other parts of public life where realistically- it doesn't make a difference what you were born as.

Unfortunately- with sport we have decided as a society to split sports based on gender. Unfortunately while the mental and societal concept of gender, in progressive circles (and I believe this too!) is that what you were born as shouldn't affect what you are recognised as if you so wish it- with sport and athletics it still has a major effect. Some people are born with birth defects or illnesses that require steroids or other substances I'm sure are banned, is substance banning part of the ableist agenda in sport? No?

There are just realities we have to accept with this. While it would be lovely for everyone to be able to participate in everything they can as whatever gender they want, you can't change just physical facts of how large and strong someone is.

 

[entremet]

Right choice and it’s not bigotry. This wasn’t someone that delayed puberty, but had prime years under the influence of male hormones.

Moreover, she’s playing a contact sport and her physical dimensions are clearly at one far end of the distribution curve.

 

[llien]

Relevant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#2009_sex_verification_tests_and_controversy
https://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/sex-testing-olympians

If biological / identity genders are swapped, athletes have less problems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

 

[AllGamer]

Seems like the right choice.

 

[Heckler456]

There's "advantage" and then there's "no one of your sex in the preceding and proceeding century will ever reach this level of physicality even with performance enhancers."

I think I found this stat during a previous discussion about track, but thousands of high school male athletes are currently faster than the fastest women of all time. Those are not the kind of advantages that you can overcome by trying hard or telling people to "get over it", especially in a contact sport. It would be like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring with a welterweight, someone could get killed.

It is terribly unfortunate that cases like these end up with athletes ostracized, but the alternative - completely trivializing female sex accomplishment in sport - is inevitable if you allow completely co-ed leagues or place no practical limitations on gender reassignment advantage.

I'm always reminded of that Venus and Serena Williams anecdote when people try to downplay the difference between men and women in regard to performance in sports.

 

[Trickster]

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the reasoning absolutely comes across as trans-misogyny.

Should cis-gendered women that are 6'2" 220lb be barred from the draft as well for the safety of the players?

Also, note how I used AFL in the quoted post. Get your facts straight.

There's maybe a handful of female athletes in the world that would match those numbers. And they are really only weight lifters and basketball players where player contanct is non exisant or minimal.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Would they deny a ciswoman if she had the same body structure?

 

[cromofo]

That's still a bloke's body that would wreck majority of the female players, badly. It's clearly the right choice. It may be unfair to her, but it would be unfair to everyone else. Clear cut.

People advocating for PEDs and mixed sports must be having a laugh. That's some dumb shit.

 

[Heckler456]

Would they deny a ciswoman if she had the same body structure?

I've tried to find an example of one in the sport, but didn't get anywhere.

 

[Pluto]

I don't know why these things are even a discussion. The integrity of the sport and the competition comes first. I'd never allow any transgender man > woman in female sports. Especially in contact sports. It's too dangerous and unfair.

It's a discussion because afaik there's no rule that excludes cisgender women if they are too tall and/or heavy, that's what makes it discrimination.

 

[Veitsev]

Would they deny a ciswoman if she had the same body structure?

Yes because she is most certainly on steroids.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Would they deny a ciswoman if she had the same body structure?

People In the thread have already looked for a woman near those dimensions in he sport and didn't get anywhere close.

Do you have an example of a born female player in the sport of similar build and weight to the woman in the op?(without the use of steroids or what have you)

 

[llien]

I've tried to find an example of one in the sport, but didn't get anywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

EDIT: ignore this post, I misunderstood the comment.

 

[CDX]

It would've been nice if they gave her a proper response much earlier rather than waiting until just days before the draft. That could deserve criticism, the fact they waited almost until the last minute to tell her.

Hopefully now they'll have a clearly detailed policy, that everybody knows beforehand.

She was competing in Australian international rep level men's Sport only last year too.

I'm not 100% familiar with the official Olympic rules for trans athletes, but I believe even the Olympics requires trans athletes to be on hormones for several years before they are eligible to play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.