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[Brashnir]

Whoooo dat?

Natalie Gulbis.

Paula Creamer.

Morgan Pressel (?)

Don't know.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

this is a difficult topic, has the population of transgender risen in the past few years or something? it seems this has been coming up often

I am not sure what would make this fair but I think the women who are currently playing LPGA should have a say... a vote as to how fairly matched they think this would be




Whoooo dat?

Natalie Gulbis, Paula Creamer, Morgan Pressel, Maria Verchenova,

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Yuuuummmm... /yung humma

 

[Cheerilee]

REALLY? I'm honestly surprised that people are showing such little understanding of TGs. It's like some of you honestly think the idea here is to "cheat the system" by deciding to make a life altering transition all for a trophy and some money, like this is some sort of plot to become a professional golfer because they can't compete on the PGA level. I mean, seriously? REALLY?

I don't doubt the motives involved. People don't willingly choose to become transgendered. Some people are quite unfairly forced into it. Anyone who would choose it would be a criminal minority.

But I think it was implied by some that if a man is small-to-average by male standards and he becomes a she, it's fair for her to compete in sports if she is average-to-large by female standards, so long as she doesn't exceed female standards.

I believe that's cheating. I believe that if you want to compete, your change should be complete and you should rid yourself of any trace of advantage that came from your former gender. A small man should become a small woman. If that takes a sex change and two years of hormone therapy, that's what it takes. But I think there should also be some sort of low-point test. The most obvious one seems to be what your qualifications were as a professional athlete before you began the change. If you can't get accepted into the PGA as a man, then get a sex change and spend two years on hormones, and then take a test that says you would not succeed in the LPGA in your current physical state (I admit, this would be difficult to confirm), then you can begin your training.

When you win an LPGA cup and anyone says a word against you, you can point to your low-point test and say "Look at these test results. I am all woman and I made sure of it, and then I fought hard to get here. I didn't get here by being part man."

If a short giant wanted to become a human and that was possible, he shouldn't be allowed to abandon the process partway through and emerge at 6'2". At least, not if he wanted to enter any contests among regular humans where height was an advantage. If he just wants to live a normal life, sure, being 6'2" is great, good for him, but if he stops there it means there's a lengthy and complicated list of things he probably shouldn't do. His only true freedom to act as he pleased would come if he stayed a short giant or became a short human.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

People don't willingly choose to become transgendered.

wait..

I think I know what you meant in spirit, though.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't doubt the motives involved. People don't willingly choose to become transgendered. Some people are quite unfairly forced into it. Anyone who would choose it would be a criminal minority.

But I think it was implied by some that if a man is small-to-average by male standards and he becomes a she, it's fair for her to compete in sports if she is average-to-large by female standards, so long as she doesn't exceed female standards.

I believe that's cheating. I believe that if you want to compete, your change should be complete and you should rid yourself of any trace of advantage that came from your former gender. A small man should become a small woman. If that takes a sex change and two years of hormone therapy, that's what it takes. But I think there should also be some sort of low-point test. The most obvious one seems to be what your qualifications were as a professional athlete before you began the change. If you can't get accepted into the PGA as a man, then get a sex change and spend two years on hormones, and then take a test that says you would not succeed in the LPGA in your current physical state (I admit, this would be difficult to confirm), then you can begin your training.

When you win an LPGA cup and anyone says a word against you, you can point to your low-point test and say "Look at these test results. I am all woman and I made sure of it, and then I fought hard to get here. I didn't get here by being part man."

If a short giant wanted to become a human and that was possible, he shouldn't be allowed to abandon the process partway through and emerge at 6'2". At least, not if he wanted to enter any contests among regular humans where height was an advantage. If he just wants to live a normal life, sure, being 6'2" is great, good for him, but if he stops there it means there's a lengthy and complicated list of things he probably shouldn't do. His only true freedom to act as he pleased would come if he stayed a short giant or became a short human.

I think you're sort of setting an unreasonable expectation here. To say that a "short man must become a short woman" if they're TG and transitioning... it just doesn't make sense. First of all, what is this implying, I mean, are we talking a percentage here? So if the short man is 12% off the estimated average height for a man in their country the short man, should they transition should be 12% smaller than the average woman? Are we just going by inches? And then what if they CAN'T actually become physically shorter? This just seems so messy and in the end unworkably ridiculous.

I think with the "test" idea the key should be if you're inline with other LPGA golfers, and that's pretty well it. Take this woman for example in the OP. It's been said she wouldn't be anywhere near the top in driving range, that's a very good example of a major concern people would seem to have. To say that she would be "unable to compete" in her current state as a standard though... I mean, the best way to measure competitiveness would seem to be two fold. First, ability to drive the ball. Second, ability to putt the ball into the hole. I already mentioned the former, but in the latter it's hardly a gender specific skill, even children can learn it and become quite good at it so I hardly see the point.

 

[Cheerilee]

I think you're sort of setting an unreasonable expectation here. To say that a "short man must become a short woman" if they're TG and transitioning... it just doesn't make sense. First of all, what is this implying, I mean, are we talking a percentage here? So if the short man is 12% off the estimated average height for a man in their country the short man, should they transition should be 12% smaller than the average woman? Are we just going by inches? And then what if they CAN'T actually become physically shorter? This just seems so messy and in the end unworkably ridiculous.

I think with the "test" idea the key should be if you're inline with other LPGA golfers, and that's pretty well it. Take this woman for example in the OP. It's been said she wouldn't be anywhere near the top in driving range, that's a very good example of a major concern people would seem to have. To say that she would be "unable to compete" in her current state as a standard though... I mean, the best way to measure competitiveness would seem to be two fold. First, ability to drive the ball. Second, ability to putt the ball into the hole. I already mentioned the former, but in the latter it's hardly a gender specific skill, even children can learn it and become quite good at it so I hardly see the point.

I agree that any solutions are going to be messy and ridiculous. I have no illusions that the one I tossed out would do much good either. I mostly just wanted to point out how it could be that someone was "cheating" without doing anything wrong.

If the competition is just as fierce in the LPGA as it is in the PGA, and this woman is a midrange driver in the LPGA where she would have been hard pressed to even qualify as a poor driver as a man in the PGA (she was a cop, not a pro golfer), then she may have received a performance boost relative to her peers when she underwent the change.

I don't think it'll work to just decide it's acceptable because she's midrange or lower, because even if she never wins, she'll still be resented as a cheater by the lower range or those who failed to qualify. If she's going to compete, the performance boost needs to be negated, and probably plus some, since people will need to be convinced that it was negated.

 

[mollipen]

That, I am sad to say, is complete nonsense. Sex is easily definable. The person who wrote that article brought up genetic abnormalities and thought it was proving some point.

Actually, sex is most times pretty easy to define, as it specifically refers to the current state of one's body in regards to male or female. Gender is the point at which things can get terribly messy, and which is the real determiner of what a person truly is.

Oh, and can we finally get past the "chop your penis off" stereotype when it comes to what it takes to go from man to woman? That's not at all what happens, as there's no chopping off of the penis. The actual procedure is far more... interesting.

wait..

I think I know what you meant in spirit, though.

People don't choose to be transgender, they choose the solution for their problem. Saying that, however, is like saying somebody is born gay but then chooses to have sex with men; it often really isn't much of a "choice" when there's only one way for you to have any kind of happy life.

 

[Drac]

"legitimate sex"? I think that's another hint where you stand. I agree with you actually about "dealing with it," as I said earlier as a private organization the LPGA is free to set whatever rules it wants. I'm just questioning the logic and reasoning behind these rules. saying a person should "deal with the rule" is non-responsive as to whether the rule is logical and useful to the sport, that is, whether the sport is benefited by this particular distinction or is not benefited. It's about the player only in the sense that this specific story is, the broader question is, does the rule make sense?

Legitimate "sex at birth" rule, the rule is legitimate, please you just want to see bad thing here :/
As for you point I see where you're going but I really can't debate on that, it's more or less globally accepted that most sports need distinction between sex for fairness, now where to set that distinction... They chose sex at birth which seems pretty logical through out history but is now put into question because of modern science feat. Should they change it to accommodate those individual ? I still think nothing is wrong with this system, maybe it's not the best for all cases but it's the one that makes more sense.

 

[flem1]

Legally female?

He is still naturally a man.

 

[Cheerilee]

Legitimate "sex at birth" rule, the rule is legitimate, please you just want to see bad thing here :/
As for you point I see where you're going but I really can't debate on that, it's more or less globally accepted that most sports need distinction between sex for fairness, now where to set that distinction... They chose sex at birth which seems pretty logical through out history but is now put into question because of modern science feat. Should they change it to accommodate those individual ? I still think nothing is wrong with this system, maybe it's not the best for all cases but it's the one that makes more sense.

"Sex at birth" is hardly a good rule, because then a woman can become a male and see huge performance increases, and yet still play in the LPGA.

I don't know how old you are or if you were taught this in history class, but in the 1980's, female athletes in East Germany were unwillingly given large doses of male hormones by their Communist leaders and they became good at sports, then great, then impossibly great, and then they became men. It was a terrible crime and "sex at birth" allows it to happen. That's why the Olympics did away with that rule. With a little effort and a few more words the rules can be made tighter, while at the same time allow for people who are in difficult situations.

Transgendered athletes are basically being accused of doing the same things that the East Germans did, in reverse, and stopping at "good". The lesson of the Olympic cheating applies very well. The LPGA should come up with a new rule and base it on careful study of the Olympic model.

 

[AkuMifune]

We should just let all sports be co-ed and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Jenga]

We should just let all sports be co-ed and let the chips fall where they may.

i see what you did there kudos

 

[SmokyDave]

Isn't there an issue where men have a wider range of upper body movement than women, due to the arrangement of their internals?

I could well be full of shit, anatomy was never my strong point.

 

[Dead Man]

Isn't there an issue where men have a wider range of upper body movement than women, due to the arrangement of their internals?

I could well be full of shit, anatomy was never my strong point.

I find myself wanting to quote your tag, but I will refrain. :lol

 

[Brashnir]

I find myself wanting to quote your tag, but I will refrain. :lol

When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.

 

[Platy]

Isn't there an issue where men have a wider range of upper body movement than women, due to the arrangement of their internals?

I could well be full of shit, anatomy was never my strong point.

I only remember the fact that females usualy have a lower gravity center ... wich means better balance ... wich would make a male to female (wich transitioned post puberty!) to have LESS skill than a "cisgender" female

 

[Gaborn]

UPDATE: LPGA scraps 'female at birth' policy

The LPGA's players have voted to allow transgender women golfers a chance to play on the tour.

Players voted Tuesday to amend the organization's constitution by removing the "female at birth" requirement, LPGA commissioner Michael Whan said. The vote came at a meeting ahead of the LPGA Tour Championship, which starts Thursday at Grand Cypress Golf Club in Orlando.

The change followed a lawsuit filed by a transgender women over the "female at birth" requirement.

Lana Lawless, a 57-year-old who underwent gender reassignment surgery in 2005, filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in San Francisco in October, claiming the policy violates California civil rights laws.

Lawless won the women's world championship in long-drive golf in 2008, but was barred from competing this year because Long Drivers of America -- which oversees the event -- had changed its policy to mirror that of the LPGA.

Entirely appropriate and about time.

 

[Guevara]

Tigress Woods to dominate PGA, LPGA simultaneously.

 

[tiff]

That's good news.