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[Ray Wonder]

No you're exact argument to which I was replying to was that cis boys will pretend to be trans... that's literally the argument you made, now you're arguing something entirely different and pretending like magically you didn't say the post blow:

Ok, fair enough, argue against the other one. I'll admit that the words in my argument are used in other people's condemnation of trans people from using their genders bathroom. And it was a hypothetical situation to gauge the limits of the line of logic they had.

And bathrooms are a separate, simpler, issue.

I don't. Biological sex should only matter in medical science. For everything else, people should participate as the gender they identify at the moment of registration.

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.

 

[excelsiorlef]

How would you define a safe space?

A safe is an academic term used to delineate literal physical spaces usually designated and branded for specific minority groups (but not always) wherein bigotry and hate speech is not tolerated and members of said minorities are able to discuss unique issues faced by their respective communities without the need to give a voice or the floor to those in the majority to answer their repetitive 101 questions. They are spaces wherein minorities (and they originated in mostly LGBT and women communities) can express the fullest extent of their identities without fear of being judged on those identities.

 

[kamineko]

Seems like a rule that should be changed, seeing as it's based on an outmoded, essentialist concept of gender

Let him fight

 

[excelsiorlef]

Ok, fair enough, argue against the other one. I'll admit that the words in my argument are used in other people's condemnation of trans people from using their genders bathroom. And it was a hypothetical situation to gauge the limits of the line of logic they had.

And bathrooms are a separate, simpler, issue.

Right the hypothetical argument that is identical to the hypothetical bathroom argument..

I have zero issue with men's and women's divisions. It is clear this boy should be in the boy's division but he is not allowed, as such he should be allowed to wrestle where he is allowed to wrestle until the change the rule. The solution isn't to just say fuck you kid you can't wrestle, it's not his fault Texas is backwards.

The lawsuit should be aimed at changing the rule not stopping the kid from wrestling but I am so shocked it's not, no I'm not.

 

[Kyzon]

Since when can't boys and girls wrestle each other? I've wrestled plenty of girls throughout my 6 year expedition in the sport from 7th grade to senior year.

 

[jwhit28]

How can you be sure the treatment doesn't give him an advantage even against guys? We had PED testing in high school, but I'm not sure what the deal was with medical exemptions.

We also had mixed Wrestling teams.

 

[stupei]

How would you define a safe space?

Certainly not one that involves people physically dominating one another in competition.

A safe is an academic term used to delineate literal physical spaces usually designated and branded for specific minority groups (but not always) wherein bigotry and hate speech is not tolerated and members of said minorities are able to discuss unique issues faced by their respective communities without the need to give a voice or the floor to those in the majority to answer their repetitive 101 questions. They are spaces wherein minorities (and they originated in mostly LGBT and women communities) can express the fullest extent of their identities without fear of being judged on those identities.

Well said.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Come on now, really? This is the some messed up generalization. This isn't about transpeople stealing titles, it's about changing a shitty rule and also treating a person with how they identify. Gaf isn't, at least on a whole, full of anti trans people or people who only care about trans rights when something like this happens

There have been multiple threads, just over the past week, talking about the serious and real threats to trans rights that are happening under the Trump administration. Those barely managed to reach three pages over the course of days. Meanwhile, this thread is already at four and hasn't even been around that long.
Trump is going to take away the right to use the restroom of the gender you identify as? Oh, whatever, who cares.
Transmale is winning competitions against cis girls? STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES THIS IS BIG
Again, I agree with the idea that he should be competing in the male division. It's what I would want if I had been out when I was doing sports.

 

[kirblar]

Since when can't boys and girls wrestle each other? I've wrestled plenty of girls throughout my 6 year expedition in the sport from 7th grade to senior year.

Texas is big enough to where they can hold a separate girl's tournament at the end of the season. Not the case in every state.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Thats what my highschool and surronding schools did. I had to wrestle a few girls in both JV and Varsity since I was in a low weight class.

 

[JP_]

"Beggs would like to wrestle boys instead of girls, but UIL regulations state teens have to compete against the gender that is on your birth certificate."

Not his fault

 

[PSqueak]

Beggs would like to wrestle boys instead of girls, but UIL regulations state teens have to compete against the gender that is on your birth certificate.

Well, this is some bullhonkey from whoever regulates the sport, i mean, why the hell is a Trans Boy not wrestling other boys? If they're not gonna let him wrestle boys, of course something like this would happen, but it aint his fault.

 

[Rimon-hanit]

Certainly not one that involves people physically dominating one another in competition.



Well said.

I agree with the definition you quoted, and I would say a female sport team answer that ,it is a space where women have, at the very least, the opportunity to express their identities without the need to regulate themselves. I think calling that notion absurd is absurd.

 

[M0nochromatic]

State regulation is the culprit here. He should have been allowed to compete in the mens league.

 

[Kyzon]

Texas is big enough to where they can hold a separate girl's tournament at the end of the season. Not the case in every state.

Ahhhh, I'm in Nevada. We were always mixed together. I remember getting into a moment and suplexing a girl during a match.

My immediate reaction

Tough girl though, she got back up ready to rumble. So much respect for her.

 

[MartyStu]

Identifying as a woman is a lifestyle altering change. No one is going to go through all that effort just to wrestle in another league. And if they were faking it they'd be exposed almost immediately

This situation is going to be so unlikely and rare it's really not even worth considering

Agreed. And in the deep future, after we have all become accepting, if it IS a problem, we can deal with it then. Until that time, it is not worthy of consideration.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Certainly not one that involves people physically dominating one another in competition.



Well said.

Thanks. I've had a lot of practice refining my definition given how often safe spaces get invoked in weird places... Think I've hit the sweet spot. Gonna save this for for later use XD

 

[AcademicSaucer]

If the kid is taking a forbidden substance then thats it right ? I mean they would need to change the regulations but the competition was held under those rules.

 

[Yoritomo]

What are the Testosterone doses for transition during adolescence FtM?

How does that match up with the normal levels of testosterone during adolesence for cis men?

Will other young men be able to use supplemental testosterone to make up differences in hormone production?

People using supplemental testosterone shouldn't be able to compete with those who can't

 

[excelsiorlef]

I agree with the definition you quoted, and I would say a female sport team answer that ,it is a space where women have, at the very least, the opportunity to express their identities without the need to regulate themselves. I think calling that notion absurd is absurd.

Wrestling this boy who has no other option is not somehow denying them their identities...

 

[The Iron Yuppie]

These threads always break down to people who value competition versus those who value inclusion. I'm afraid there's no way (that we currently know of) to keep female athletes competitive with men, trans men, or trans women. Testosterone is that big of an advantage.

Really all that needs to be said.

I'm completely on the side of the trans-man. It's a raw deal that the state's law is forcing him to wrestle women when he'd prefer to wrestle men. If they'd get rid of their bullshit law, everyone involved would be getting what they want. Would it be completely fair to the trans-man competitively? Maybe not, but he'd be the one consenting to that.

 

[Mulberry]

I take it that there is no waiver system for the treatment he is receiving? The testosterone treatment will give him an advantage over anyone he faces, as would other things like medication for ADHD.

 

[thefro]

State regulation is the culprit here. He should have been allowed to compete in the mens league.

Agreed 100%. That's the proper division for someone in this situation.

Testosterone is a huge advantage in athletics when you're competing against females.

 

[TenCentCoast]

What are the Testosterone doses for transition during adolescence MtF?

How does that match up with the normal levels of testosterone during adolesence for cis men?

Will other young men be able to use supplemental testosterone to make up differences in hormone production?

People using supplemental testosterone shouldn't be able to compete with those who can't

I know you weren't being intentionally malicious, but in this case the term would be FtM.

 

[Platy]

I take it that there is no waiver system for the treatment he is receiving? The testosterone treatment will give him an advantage over anyone he faces, as would other things like medication for ADHD.

Will give him an advantage over GIRLS he faces.

If he can't face boys than it is a problem of the transphobic rule that says a boy needs to compete with girls, not the poor boy who only want some facial hair

 

[Yoritomo]

I know you weren't being intentionally malicious, but in this case the term would be FtM.

Screwed that up, sorry. Editing my original post.

Also I should have paid more attention to the article. He was competing in a girls wrestling league?

I'd still have questions if he were competing in the men's league but he shouldn't be competing with girls at all if he's receiving supplemental testosterone to transition.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

There have been multiple threads, just over the past week, talking about the serious and real threats to trans rights that are happening under the Trump administration. Those barely managed to reach three pages over the course of days. Meanwhile, this thread is already at four and hasn't even been around that long.
Trump is going to take away the right to use the restroom of the gender you identify as? Oh, whatever, who cares.
Transmale is winning competitions against cis girls? STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES THIS IS BIG
Again, I agree with the idea that he should be competing in the male division. It's what I would want if I had been out when I was doing sports.

Probably because the bathroom topic has been beaten to death. Add up the posts/pages from all of the bathroom threads and compare them to sports threads and let me know how that balances out.

Pretty much everybody agrees on trans bathroom usage because it doesn't actually affect anyone else the way sports does. Where you take a dump doesn't have any impact on anyone else's successes or future the way competitive sports does.

 

[plagiarize]

For everyone who loses their crap about Fallon Fox, I'm going to remember this example to show that they're advocating for this guy being forced to beat up girls.

 

[Platy]

Screwed that up, sorry. Editing my original post.

Also I should have paid more attention to the article. He was competing in a girls wrestling league?

I'd still have questions if he were competing in the men's league but he shouldn't be competing with girls at all if he's receiving supplemental testosterone to transition.

Yeah but he can't because the state is transphobic as shit.

So would you rather have a kid do the sport he loves or say "sorry, the state hates you, so you can't play the sport you love"

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

You realize the film Ladybugs isn't a documentary, right?



The wrestling arena is not a "safe space for women." That's absurd.

A woman's sport league is most certainly a safe space for women.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Probably because the bathroom topic has been beaten to death. Add up the posts/pages from all of the bathroom threads and compare them to sports threads and let me know how that balances out.

Pretty much everybody agrees on trans bathroom usage because it doesn't actually affect anyone else the way sports does. Where you take a dump doesn't have any impact on anyone else's successes or future the way competitive sports does.

So people are tired of defending the rights of others? Got it, I'll keep that in mind the next time law that doesn't affect me but will result in furthering the oppression of a group is about to get passed.

 

[Christhor]

Jesus this is the same logic to argue why trans folk shouldn't be allowed in bathrooms of their actual gender.

Are these comparable? Is there prize money involved in the bathrooms you decide to use?

 

[stupei]

I agree with the definition you quoted, and I would say a female sport team answer that ,it is a space where women have, at the very least, the opportunity to express their identities without the need to regulate themselves. I think calling that notion absurd is absurd.

Since most female teams are coached by men, participating in leagues regulated by men, often with male referees and officiating, I'm not sure how they could qualify as safe spaces for women. A space where women can be themselves and bond together is not actually the same thing at all and should be present more generally in many more areas of life, whereas safe spaces are, by necessity of definition -- in that they are largely self-regulated -- rather limited and rare.

A woman's sport league is most certainly a safe space for women.

Could you please define what you think a safe space is?

 

[Cybit]

If a woman has male levels of testosterone, they do bar them.

This is completely on the laws being antiquated and lawmakers being ignorant and stupid-not on the kid at all.

Yeah; this is not even really on the parents - the parents suing the league is the fastest way to try to push for the rule change (get a court to overturn the rule) or the kids.

I mean, IOC, the body that defines the highest end human athletic endeavors, has scientifically tested rules they use for such occasions. Why the hell don't we just use that?

 

[Yoritomo]

Yeah but he can't because the state is transphobic as shit.

So would you rather have a kid do the sport he loves or say "sorry, the state hates you, so you can't play the sport you love"

Looks like he's following the rules. Do what you can while you can.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Since most female teams are coached by men, participating in leagues regulated by men, often with male referees and officiating, I'm not sure how they could qualify as safe spaces for women. A space where women can be themselves and bond together is not actually the same thing at all and should be present more generally in many more areas of life, whereas safe spaces are, by necessity of definition -- in that they are largely self-regulated -- rather limited and rare.

Edit:You know on second thought, I'm not going to argue with a mod. I value my account too much. Have a nice day.

 

[Yoritomo]

Yeah; this is not even really on the parents - the parents suing the league is the fastest way to try to push for the rule change (get a court to overturn the rule) or the kids.

I mean, IOC, the body that defines the highest end human athletic endeavors, has scientifically tested rules they use for such occasions. Why the hell don't we just use that?

Because regular anti-doping testing during childhood and adolescent sports seems like a bit of overkill.

Interesting problem. I admit I'm not sure what the right thing is when it comes to hormones and competitive sports.

 

[prag16]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

That won't work. Men would dominate completely. Think about UFC and putting the top 135lb male against the top 135lb female. It would be a joke. And don't forget the story about Serena Williams (155-165lbs depending on the source) getting absolutely destroyed by a man out of the top 100 or even top 300 (don't know his weight, but plenty of male tennis players are in that weight range) who later said he wasn't even going all out. You can't do it.

How do you prove this?

Yeah, I mean technically there's nothing stopping me from stating I identify as a lesbian female, and just carrying on exactly how I've already been. I wouldn't even have to shave my legs. Though I might anyway.

 

[TheStruggler]

This is tough when it comes to sports. If he was transitioning to male and taking the testosterone then he probably shouldn't have been competing in a female wrestling league.

I agree with this however a poster says due to identification he can only wrestle females. I think they need to change that because if he does identify as male he should be wrestling against males

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are these comparable? Is there prize money involved in the bathrooms you decide to use?

Did you read the quote or just decide to ignore it?

Comment was well what if cis boys pretend to be trans.. that's the exact logic used in the bathroom debate...

 

[LegendofLex]

I used to live a few towns over from Coppell.

Sadly, I'm not surprised the lawsuit was brought on by a Coppell parent, because of archaic UIL rules.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Did you read the quote or just decide to ignore it?

Comment was well what if cis boys pretend to be trans.. that's the exact logic used in the bathroom debate...

He's saying that where you shit doesn't matter, but how strong you are biologically does.

 

[stupei]

Women in this league have the expectation of safety through members of the same sex. If someone taking testosterone comes in to dominate then that expectation of safety is thrown out the window. The entire identity of the league is moot.

You're not really using the word "safe space" as it is generally used to refer to emotionally safe spaces free from particular kinds of engagement and particularly emotionally draining confrontation. By the traditional definition, a public space where women are engaged in athletic competition is not a safe space.

I'm not certain how you could call a space where athletes go with the intent of engaging in physical domination is intended to be entirely safe physically either. It must be "safe" in that no one will be excessively hurt, certainly, but women choose to become wrestlers because they are ready and willing to engage each other physically. What one should be concerned with is not necessarily a "safe space," but fairness. They're not the same thing. (Obviously women and men wrestling should be kept safe from any permanent or lasting harm, but that is so obvious that it should go without saying.)

Edit:You know on second thought, I'm not going to argue with a mod. I value my account too much. Have a nice day.

Do you have any idea how much more disrespectful this response is?

If every mod banned everyone we disagree with, there would be no forum left. Come on.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

So people are tired of defending the rights of others? Got it, I'll keep that in mind the next time law that doesn't affect me but will result in furthering the oppression of a group is about to get passed.

jesus...really?

 

[excelsiorlef]

He's saying that where you shit doesn't matter, but how strong you are biologically does.

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

Literally about cis boys pretending to be trans.... that's the argument... that''s what I was comparing to the bathrooms argument. why do people keep pretending this post doesn't exist?

Like shit Ray even acknowledged it.

 

[kirblar]

You're not really using the word "safe space" as it is generally used to refer to emotionally safe spaces free from particular kinds of engagement and particularly emotionally draining confrontation. By the traditional definition, a public space where women are engaged in athletic competition is not a safe space.

I'm not certain how you could call a space where athletes go with the intent of engaging in physical domination is intended to be entirely safe physically either. It must be "safe" in that no one will be excessively hurt, certainly, but women choose to become wrestlers because they are ready and willing to engage each other physically. What one should be concerned with is not necessarily a "safe space," but fairness. They're not the same thing. (Obviously women and men wrestling should be kept safe from any permanent or lasting harm, but that is so obvious that it should go without saying.)

Women and men wrestling also isn't a safety issue. This happens all the time in practice, and oftentimes they're competing w/ each other due to lack of other opponents for the women.

 

[Yayate]

Yeah, I mean technically there's nothing stopping me from stating I identify as a lesbian female, and just carrying on exactly how I've already been. I wouldn't even have to shave my legs. Though I might anyway.

Jesus christ.

Just... jesus christ.

You know what? Just go do that. Identify as something you aren't are on every form of media possible. Social media, too, of course. Have fun with how easy it is.

 

[Kyuur]

I'm having trouble deciphering the lawsuit part of this (not seeing much mention in the article): Is this suit aimed at the State to change the rules, the school or the student?

 

[HawksWinStanley]

I'm having trouble deciphering the lawsuit part of this (not seeing much mention in the article): Is this suit aimed at the State to change the rules, the school or the student?

The school.

 

[Cyan]

I don't get why people are saying the student should pull out of the competition. The problem isn't him, it's the rules they've set up. If he pulls out they have no motivation to change the rules, and this will continue to be a problem for the next trans kid who wants to wrestle.

Obvious solution: he should keep wrestling and hopefully winning until they fix their shit.