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[EmpressInYellow]

I'd hope the committee that decided to let transitioned people compete in the Olympics would qualify to your standards though.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

2 years of hormone therapy and managed testosterone levels seem good enough for the Olympics, but admittedly they were not discussing the cutthroat competition that is highschool track and field

To be clear, I was talking about all of the people who make appeals to biology to discredit/dismiss trans people while actual biologists (and trans people who are all too aware of the ins and outs of the medical issues involved) are telling them otherwise.

 

[Bishop89]

I think its unfair if there is a biological advantage.

The only thing i can think of, and I have no idea how this could ever be measured/applied, but have like a handicap (or whatever the opposite of a handicap is) .

But again I cant see how you could measure that at all considering each individual is different.

 

[tmarg]

The only thing i can think of, and I have no idea how this could ever be measured/applied, but have like a handicap (or whatever the opposite of a handicap is) .

But again I cant see how you could measure that at all considering each individual is different.

I dunno, maybe the handicap could be a requirement for hormone therapy or something? And maybe it could be applied until hormone levels reached a point where the scientific community agreed that there was no longer any advantage?

Just spitballing though...

 

[Portugeezer]

Transgender women on HRT do not have any significant advantage over cisgender women, even the IOC agrees with that.

Also, transgender women are not men.

Does bone structure not matter in sports? I see a lot of hormone talks, but there is more to sports surely.

 

[Braag]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

That wouldn't be fair towards female atheles.

 

[Aske]

There has to be some regulation (such as requiring HRT) otherwise, we're returning to the days where being born female becomes a liability (in girls sports, no less). It only takes one transgender girl competing (assuming no HRT) to foreclose any girls born female, from winning.

Being a physically weaker woman versus a physically stronger woman will always be a liability. My take is that there are sufficiently few trans women in the world, and that cisgender women are sufficiently diverse, that everything evens out. How many trans women are going to be born in the bodies of huge males who are bigger than any cis female could ever possibly be? There are some mighty cis women out there, and I think catagorizing mighty trans women alongside them is both fair and sensible; particularly considering the alternatives.

That is not what happened and is not a genuine representation of the circumstances.

From my philosophical perspective, it is what happened, and the rest of my post was a defense and promotion of this stance. I'd rather say "she has an extremely masculine body, as various cis women do" than "she's got a man's body! Women can never compete with this superpower!"


Edit:

That wouldn't be fair towards female atheles.

Agreed. Male and female atheletes can never compete on an even playing field en masse because on average, most men are physically larger and stronger than most women. However, there are enough weak cis men and strong cis women that I think the tiny handful of transgender atheletes in the world ought to be able to compete alongside whichever gender they feel most comfortable. The world's strongest cis men will always be stronger than the world's strongest cis women. However, the chances of the world's strongest trans women being significantly stronger the world's strongest cis women are low enough that it seems unreasonable to treat trans people like they've been born with a significant advantage or disadvantage when it comes to athletic competition.

 

[GhostTrick]

Or maybe she worked hard ?
I mean, of course genetics might have helped her... but it's the same for every others, regardless of gender.
Genetics are unfair. Some will be tall, some will be small. Some have predisposition for muscular build, other don't. It's a gigantic lottery, regardless of gender.

Basically, yes, it is unfair. But let's be honest, genes are unfair.

 

[Frodo]

This is a tricky one. In this case, they are just kids so I wouldn't cause a fuss myself if my kid was a loser in this race. It's not exactly professional level so why upset people?

You clearly have never listened to parents talking about their kids to other parents.




On topic: this is a tough issue, since males, physically, have an innate advantage there. And until we get plenty of papers agreeing that this is not actually the case it will be a heated topic. Utterly pointless in a kid's race, though.

 

[ReaperXL7]

You clearly have never listened to parents talking about their kids to other parents.




On topic: this is a tough issue, since males, physically, have an innate advantage there. And until we get plenty of papers agreeing that this is not actually the case it will be a heated topic. Utterly pointless in a kid's race, though.

I would agree if excellence in high school sports didn't mean the chance of going to collage for many teenagers. Many students who can qualify for Athletic scholarships wouldn't necessarily qualify for academic scholarships which is why it's not a good idea to ax athletic scholarships because all you'd be doing is cutting off many students who wouldn't be able to afford collage otherwise.

The only way you change that is by changing the way going to collage works in the U.S which most likely won't happen anytime soon.

 

[Amory]

Utterly pointless in a kid's race, though.

high school track competition isn't the equivalent of a fun run. the outcomes matter, especially for kids who would be placing in the top 3.

 

[KRod-57]

Admittedly this is a trickier situation when it is an individual who used to be male competing in a female league. The Olympics now allows for transgenders to compete in their games, but it is regulated, women who used to be males must have their testosterone under a certain level for a certain amount of time

To me that is the fairest way to handle things

 

[EmpressInYellow]

On topic: this is a tough issue, since males, physically, have an innate advantage there. And until we get plenty of papers agreeing that this is not actually the case it will be a heated topic. Utterly pointless in a kid's race, though.

If only we had an official statement from some kind of international athletic authority that could clear things up.

 

[Yoshi]

...how do you think beards works ?

How do you think shaving works?

Can you describe its effects?

Again depends on the level you want to know. The sexual hormones affect, among other things, hair growth, muscle growth, bone structure and voice. Some of these effects are long-term (for instance, once your voice break has happened, your voice stays deep, bone strucutre does not change quickly either), some are mid-term-to-long-term (muscle mass you have built under a higher testosterone level does not vanish in an instant when the testosterone level is lower and iot is still easier to keep muscle mass that you have obtained than building new mass), some are short-to-mid-term (beard for instance). So on this level I can answer this, but, since I'm no biologist, I cannot describe the chemical resaons for this reliably. Are you a biologist / can do it either way?

 

[Rayis]

I just love how threads about trans people turns everyone into biology experts, 8th grade biology experts too.

 

[FyreWulff]

I just love how threads about trans people turns everyone into biology experts, 8th grade biology experts too.

people just want to have a little bit of transphobia and couching it in "but science!" for a completely artificially constructed human activity.

 

[JB1981]

They can follow Olympics rules and simply do a testosterone check, under a certain level you're allowed to participate with girls/women. I don't think there are any restrictions on female-to-male athletes.

This does not account for inherent differences in bone structure, muscle mass, strength in the connective tissues etc

 

[Alienfan]

I mean men are physically stronger than women (I believe?) so this is a tough issue. Can't exactly separate people but is it fair for everyone to compete together?

I really have no ideas how to solve this tbh. Interested to see what gaffer's have to say.

And some men aren't physically stronger than most women. Gender sport segregation is so stupid, it should be based on weight/muscle, (or maybe testosterone levels) as opposed to sex imo - a far more objective and less offensive way to make sports "fair".

 

[grumble]

Being a physically weaker woman versus a physically stronger woman will always be a liability. My take is that there are sufficiently few trans women in the world, and that cisgender women are sufficiently diverse, that everything evens out. How many trans women are going to be born in the bodies of huge males who are bigger than any cis female could ever possibly be? There are some mighty cis women out there, and I think catagorizing mighty trans women alongside them is both fair and sensible; particularly considering the alternatives.



From my philosophical perspective, it is what happened, and the rest of my post was a defense and promotion of this stance. I'd rather say "she has an extremely masculine body, as various cis women do" than "she's got a man's body! Women can never compete with this superpower!"


Edit:



Agreed. Male and female atheletes can never compete on an even playing field en masse because on average, most men are physically larger and stronger than most women. However, there are enough weak cis men and strong cis women that I think the tiny handful of transgender atheletes in the world ought to be able to compete alongside whichever gender they feel most comfortable. The world's strongest cis men will always be stronger than the world's strongest cis women. However, the chances of the world's strongest trans women being significantly stronger the world's strongest cis women are low enough that it seems unreasonable to treat trans people like they've been born with a significant advantage or disadvantage when it comes to athletic competition.

I think you underestimate the disparity. Recently for example the Australian national women's soccer team was beaten 7-0 by the under 15 boy's team. Xy who have not been hormonally altered, with the predisposition to compete in a given sport and the intense training to be competitive, will in large part smoke women. It wouldn't be fair.

There are exceptional women who can beat most men, but they wouldn't be competing against most men. They be competing against talented and highly trained Xy.

 

[grumble]

And some men aren't physically stronger than most women. Gender sport segregation is so stupid, it should be based on weight/muscle, (or maybe testosterone levels) as opposed to sex imo - a far more objective and less offensive way to make sports "fair".

You don't understand the biology. Women with equal muscle mass are still weake when trained equallyr, and it's more complex than just current testosterone level (which one would functionally segregate in the same way and two is only part of the puzzle. It doesn't make Xy and xx equal when testosterone is equalized, unless it's from conception).

 

[mrklaw]

"annoy"

If this is allowed to continue, you could potentially see such scholarship programs dominated by genetically male individuals. That's kind of bullshit and screws genetically female individuals.

Lets take it a step further, should a Transgender M->F be allowed to fight genetically female opponents in boxing? how about MMA?

Should a genetically male golfer be allowed to compete in the WPGA where they have a massive advantage over their opponents?

Trans rights are a big deal, but you end up really putting CIS women at a disadvantage if you allow it in sports. In contact sports, it becomes downright dangerous.

take it one stage further and if it was financially advantageous, you could have people artificially declaring as transgender so as to compete more favourably on the Women's circuit.

 

[n00bsauce87]

Its a lot of pages but I haven't seen anyone make a case or provide examples of how a transman compete on the highest levels of competition against other men.

Wouldnt that mean the entirety of these thread and almost all of society either unconsciously or publicly acknowledge that the male body (as it develops from birth to the end of puberty) is on average stronger and faster.

Of course with training and experience, that difference can be eliminated.

I'm open to hear other opinions.

But its weird how this debate that trans equality in sports seems only one sided as only trans women are the only one trying to knock down the barrier

 

[optimiss]

This is my own anecdotal experience but after 10 years on hormones I am incredibly weak as compared to before I started estrogen and a testosterone blocker.

Last year I tried to get fit and it tooks months for me to be able to do one pull up. I could never get more than one. I feel like my little estrogen powered muscles can't handle my 5'10" 150lb frame.

I think in track and field events the real advantage would be height and a longer stride. I was on the track team in High School and I could keep up with almost anyone. I was fast. I raced a guy a few years ago and I couldn't run half as fast as him. Hormones definitely change your physical performance.

That said, it is probably different for every person how long it takes and to what extent it happens. I think the Olympic guidelines seem like a reasonable standard.

 

[partyphone]

Its a lot of pages but I haven't seen anyone make a case or provide examples of how a transman compete on the highest levels of competition against other men.

Wouldnt that mean the entirety of these thread and almost all of society either unconsciously or publicly acknowledge that the male body (as it develops from birth to the end of puberty) is on average stronger and faster.

Of course with training and experience, that difference can be eliminated.

I'm open to hear other opinions.

But its weird how this debate that trans equality in sports seems only one sided as only trans women are the only one trying to knock down the barrier

there are trans men competing. we just don't hear about it because it's less frequent(since there are fewer trans men) and for whatever reason bigots don't seem to care.

http://www.advocate.com/sports/2015...ans-man-compete-us-college-mens-swimming-team

 

[Blader]

As someone who used to run track, I agree that is pretty unfair; I did not win any state or county titles but I would've cleaned up in the girls races time-wise. Not really sure what the workaround for this is though.

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

lol, that's a great way of ensuring you'd never see women in professional sports again.

 

[partyphone]

As someone who used to run track, I agree that is pretty unfair; I did not win any state or county titles but I would've cleaned up in the girls races time-wise. Not really sure what the workaround for this is though.

HRT for at least a year isn't enough because?

 

[ElFly]

As someone who used to run track, I agree that is pretty unfair; I did not win any state or county titles but I would've cleaned up in the girls races time-wise.

This is not what is happening, tho. She does have a good record, but it is comparable to other girls.

She would be beaten soundly if she was participating in the men division, she is decent -but not overpowering so- on the women division.

 

[Kinyou]

there are trans men competing. we just don't hear about it because it's less frequent(since there are fewer trans men) and for whatever reason bigots don't seem to care.

http://www.advocate.com/sports/2015...ans-man-compete-us-college-mens-swimming-team

Well we also don't hear about it because women aren't considered to have an inherent advantage over men, so no one assumes it's makes the competition unfair, isn't that a pretty simple reason?

The Olympic guidelines also have no restrictions for men who transition from female to male, while male to female women have to be below a testosterone limit.

 

[Justified]

people just want to have a little bit of transphobia and couching it in "but science!" for a completely artificially constructed human activity.

Im seeing this rhetoric a lot in here. People having legit questions on the issue doesn't immediately make them transphobic (Im talking in this thread, not the bigots going after the girl)

I only seen one poster who was even borderline and the poster was banned.

Just like no one wants (and shouldnt) be the target of transphobic comments, no one also should not be accused of bigotry or being transphobic.

At the very least quote the instances you are talking about.

People can/discuss from a basic scientific POV, you dont need a PHD for that. Thats the whole point of discussions, both sides talking it out.

 

[partyphone]

Im seeing this rhetoric a lot in here. People having legit questions on the issue doesn't immediately make them transphobic.

I only seen one poster who was even borderline and the poster was banned.

Just like no one wants (and shouldnt) be the target of transphobic comments, no one also should not be accused of bigotry or being transphobic.

At the very least quote the instances you are talking about.

People can/discuss from a basicscientific POV, you dont need a PHD for that. Thats the whole point of discussions, both sides talking it out.

except people aren't asking questions. they're come into a 20 page thread, give their "well, actually..." and then leave. i applaud anyone who is ignorant and genuinely wants to learn about this issue. but there are a lot of people who want to stay ignorant and it's frustrating.

 

[Justified]

except people aren't asking questions. they're come into a 20 page thread, give their "well, actually..." and then leave. i applaud anyone who is ignorant and genuinely wants to learn about this issue. but there are a lot of people who want to stay ignorant and it's frustrating.

Thats fine but willfully ignorant =/= transphobia.

From the other side driveby post accusing those of transphobia is just as disheartening as driveby willfully ignorant post

 

[Blader]

HRT for at least a year isn't enough because?

I don't know. Is it? I legitimately don't know, and while I don't have time to read through all 20 pages of this thread, posters on the first page were saying that it can't completely take away that physiological advantage. If that's wrong and HRT would undo the physiological advantage of being a male athlete upon transitioning into a woman, then you're right that the point is moot.

This is not what is happening, tho. She does have a good record, but it is comparable to other girls.

She would be beaten soundly if she was participating in the men division, she is decent -but not overpowering so- on the women division.

Right, but even if her time is comparable to other girls, does she not still have a higher physiological baseline from being born a man? I wasn't saying that if I was a woman, I would be the fastest woman in the state, but that I would be in the top 10 or 20 or whatever, and perform significantly better than if I were running in the men's race.

"She would be beaten soundly in the men's division but performs better in the women's division" is kind of my point. But like I said, I don't know what, if any, workaround there would be to this anyway.

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

If you've read the research on this subject, it's clear that someone that is male to female trans has an unfair advantage in athletics due to inherent physical developments prior to transition.

Yes, it does matter when the transition took place, but in my eyes it's a losing game trying to make an ultimate determination and as a result, any participation of theirs will always be unfair to some degree.

I have much less of a problem with it in traditional sports like track and field as opposed to the situation with Fallon Fox in MMA, but I'm still against that advantage and I think you can logically come to that conclusion while still supporting trans people.

Do they have to resign themselves to never competing in sports as a result of their situation? I would personally never want to compete athletically when I know I have some kind of unfair advantage because that is not true competition, but that's my own personal stance.

I feel for them, but there's no good solution.

 

[optimiss]

If you've read the research on this subject, it's clear that someone that is male to female trans has an unfair advantage in athletics due to inherent physical developments prior to transition.

You can't make blanket statements like that because physical performance is way too complex to be reduced to such a simple formulation.

I have a transgender friend, male to female, who is 4'9" tall. Are you saying that because she was born male she has an inherent physical advantage over all the girls who are most likely well above 4'9" and much stronger as result?

Should we not let tall cisgender women compete? They surely have an unfair physical advantage over someone of average height. It makes the most sense to divide sports with weight classes ala boxing than it does along gender lines.

But people don't really want what's fair, they want the status quo. "If it has been good enough for 2000 years it should be good enough now!"

 

[Keri]

Being a physically weaker woman versus a physically stronger woman will always be a liability. My take is that there are sufficiently few trans women in the world, and that cisgender women are sufficiently diverse, that everything evens out. How many trans women are going to be born in the bodies of huge males who are bigger than any cis female could ever possibly be? There are some mighty cis women out there, and I think catagorizing mighty trans women alongside them is both fair and sensible; particularly considering the alternatives.

Someone else already responded to you, but I have to agree with them: My understanding is that the diversity in athleticism between women born as women is much smaller than the diversity between someone born female and someone born male.

So, if we're assuming no HRT, the transgirl or woman will have the equivalent of a superpower and is almost guaranteed to win (with much less training). Even if it only happens sometimes, as I said before, it only takes one trans-athlete to make winning an impossibility for any person born female. So unless you require HRT, you'd be taking an activity that was designed to give girls the opportunity to participate and succeed, without feeling the disadvantage of their sex and, for the vast majority, reintroducing the same biological disadvantage, the activity was meant to avoid.

 

[ReaperXL7]

except people aren't asking questions. they're come into a 20 page thread, give their "well, actually..." and then leave. i applaud anyone who is ignorant and genuinely wants to learn about this issue. but there are a lot of people who want to stay ignorant and it's frustrating.

That's not true, I asked on the last page for good factual resources that could help educate on Trans issues but no one responded. I honestly thought about just asking in the Trans thread in community but to be honest I never know how to ask questions properly about these issues.

I understand why trans people get heated or even mad about this kind of stuff because it has to feel like trying to constantly defend their own existence, but it doesn't help when there are those of us who would actually like to learn but end up just being lumped in with people are straight transphobic and any rebuttal to that just makes things worse.

I want to be clear I'm not saying that Trans individuals do not have a right to get upset when people are ignorant, but the only way that many can even start to learn is by asking questions which especially at first might even come off as offensive. I would never want to offend anyone about these kinds of topics but this is not a shallow subject and it's not always easy to know what's ok, not ok or even true even more so when you have had very little real exposure to it.

 

[Justified]

You can't make blanket statements like that because physical performance is way too complex to be reduced to such a simple formulation.

I have a transgender friend, male to female, who is 4'9" tall. Are you saying that because she was born male she has an inherent physical advantage over all the girls who are most likely well above 4'9" and much stronger as result?

Should we not let tall cisgender women compete? They surely have an unfair physical advantage over someone of average height. It makes the most sense to divide sports with weight classes ala boxing than it does along gender lines.

But people don't really want what's fair, they want the status quo. "If it has been good enough for 2000 years it should be good enough now!"

No, while there are clear cases on way or the other that show exceptional cis males or females. without eliminating male/female leagues, and letting everyone compete together (like some poster suggests), you have to deal with averages. On average males do have physical advantages.

Puberty, and when/if they do HRT are variables outside of those averages. A 4'9"-5'3" born male is extremely rare compared to born female

Again I ask:

When it comes to sports how do you integrate Transgender in to Male/Female pseudo-segregated leagues?

Is it based off hormone level? If so what of those who identify but dont/cant utilize HRT?

Is it based on identity? If so if you cant use the generally accepted differences of sex (not gender) what do you use?

If its neither, is it a scientific fallacy that male, and females are generally different when it come to biology?

I absolutely think transgenders (Im talking across the board) should be able to compete. Its the how (systematically that is), not the why I personally dont have the answer to

And Im asking from a general overall perspective. Not ever person who transition is 4'9", and has been on HRT for 5 years (or before puberty).

Im fine with the IOC guideline, but not everyone can/does meet that who may want to compete (especially at a High School level) so where do they fit in?

 

[optimiss]

That's not true, I asked on the last page for good factual resources that could help educate on Trans issues but no one responded. I honestly thought about just asking in the Trans thread in community but to be honest I never know how to ask questions properly about these issues.

What are you interested in learning about? I might be able to provide some resources.

 

[ReaperXL7]

What are you interested in learning about? I might be able to provide some resources.

Right now just anything really, as someone who has very little knowledge but try's to keep an open mind on issues I may not understand it's difficult to even know where to start.

Things like proper terminology would probably be a good start other then calling a transgender individual by the gender they associate with, I slip sometimes I won't lie about that but it's something I try to correct myself on when I do.

Problem is I spent most of my youth on a reservation so there is a lot to these issues that are honestly foreign to me,I'd like to try and change that.

 

[winjet81]

This is a tough one, no doubt.

I also don't understand how some people can just say 'leave it to Olympics and other atletics bodies to monitor testosterone levels'; these organizations can't even keep track of the PED use and abuse in their sports.

What makes anyone think they can monitor testosterone levels fairly, when many of those athletes are surely going to be using drugs to mask those levels anyway?

 

[partyphone]

This is a tough one, no doubt.

I also don't understand how some people can just say 'leave it to Olympics and other atletics bodies to monitor testosterone levels'; these organizations can't even keep track of the PED use and abuse in their sports.

What makes anyone think they can monitor testosterone levels fairly, when many of those athletes are surely going to be using drugs to mask those levels anyway?

well since that's an issue that applies to everyone why preemptively punish trans people for it?

 

[Trojita]

This is a tough one, no doubt.

I also don't understand how some people can just say 'leave it to Olympics and other atletics bodies to monitor testosterone levels'; these organizations can't even keep track of the PED use and abuse in their sports.

What makes anyone think they can monitor testosterone levels fairly, when many of those athletes are surely going to be using drugs to mask those levels anyway?

Can you even mask Testosterone levels?

 

[ElFly]

I don't know. Is it? I legitimately don't know, and while I don't have time to read through all 20 pages of this thread, posters on the first page were saying that it can't completely take away that physiological advantage. If that's wrong and HRT would undo the physiological advantage of being a male athlete upon transitioning into a woman, then you're right that the point is moot.

Maybe she has an advantage? But it doesn't seem to be bigger than the advantage from other naturally tall/better built girls. Hell, it doesn't seem to be bigger than the advantage from other not as tall girls; individual variance here is more important, and what are you gonna do against individual genetical variance? That is, by definition, unfair.

Right, but even if her time is comparable to other girls, does she not still have a higher physiological baseline from being born a man? I wasn't saying that if I was a woman, I would be the fastest woman in the state, but that I would be in the top 10 or 20 or whatever, and perform significantly better than if I were running in the men's race.

"She would be beaten soundly in the men's division but performs better in the women's division" is kind of my point. But like I said, I don't know what, if any, workaround there would be to this anyway.

She is not cleaning up -which is what you said-. She has had some success in the 200m race, but that advantage got erased as she moved to state wide competition, where she is performing on female level. On female level on Alaska.

Unless your standards for "cleaning up" is third place. In which case, lol.

So what do you want? That she performs as an _average_ girl? If you look at her record, she is indistinguishable from other girls that perform well.

No, while there are clear cases on way or the other that show exceptional cis males or females. without eliminating male/female leagues, and letting everyone compete together (like some poster suggests), you have to deal with averages. On average males do have physical advantages.

Puberty, and when/if they do HRT are variables outside of those averages. A 4'9"-5'3" born male is extremely rare compared to born female

Again I ask:

And Im asking from a general overall perspective. Not ever person who transition is 4'9", and has been on HRT for 5 years (or before puberty).

Im fine with the IOC guideline, but not everyone can/does meet that who may want to compete (especially at a High School level) so where do they fit in?

At the high school level is more complex because not everyone starts treatment at the same time, the school may not want to enter a dispute on who is or not trans, who is under treatment, etc. Of course, it is still also complex if you take out transgirls from the competition, since different girls will have different rates of growth, height, weight, muscle mass. Individual variance is p great even without trans people in the equation, but somehow you don't see the parents in the news complaining against taller girls.

Which is why the school ain't entering that discussion and is just saying "if she is registered as female, she can compete as female". There are legal ramifications they don't want to enter which do not apply to the olympics committee.

In time, as there's growing acceptance of trans people, more girls will start transition earlier, and thus advantages like height, bone structure, etc, will be reduced. There may be some corner cases, at the high school level, but again, it is not what we are seeing here.

 

[Kinyou]

This is a tough one, no doubt.

I also don't understand how some people can just say 'leave it to Olympics and other atletics bodies to monitor testosterone levels'; these organizations can't even keep track of the PED use and abuse in their sports.

What makes anyone think they can monitor testosterone levels fairly, when many of those athletes are surely going to be using drugs to mask those levels anyway?

If they can't monitor testosterone levels than all of this is pointless anyway because then I guarantee you that plenty of the cis top athletes would use it as doping.

 

[Justified]

Can you even mask Testosterone levels?

Yes with epitestosterone.

Detecting steroid used is done by comparing epitestosterone levels to testosterone levels

 

[Justified]

If they can't monitor testosterone levels than all of this is pointless anyway because then I guarantee you that plenty of the cis top athletes would use it as doping.

(This is an aside to the main discussion)

They do now (in track and field).

When Marion Jones got busted, I remember her saying If you are NOT doping, you cant compete

 

[Blader]

She is not cleaning up -which is what you said-. She has had some success in the 200m race, but that advantage got erased as she moved to state wide competition, where she is performing on female level. On female level on Alaska.

Unless your standards for "cleaning up" is third place. In which case, lol.

I said I would've cleaned up in my hypothetical, I wasn't talking about this girl. And yes, I'd be quite pleased with myself if I placed third at states and made all-state.

 

[ElFly]

lol

It's all gonna be moot in a few years if the paraolympics become the cyborg olympics and start crushing people's records.

 

[Yoshi]

And some men aren't physically stronger than most women. Gender sport segregation is so stupid, it should be based on weight/muscle, (or maybe testosterone levels) as opposed to sex imo - a far more objective and less offensive way to make sports "fair".

So training muscles should actually yield a disadvantage in competitive sports, because you are put in a "more muscular class"?

 

[Future]

And some men aren't physically stronger than most women. Gender sport segregation is so stupid, it should be based on weight/muscle, (or maybe testosterone levels) as opposed to sex imo - a far more objective and less offensive way to make sports "fair".

Winning the genetic lottery giving an advantage in sports is not what anyone is trying to protect against. Testosterone separation already naturally exists with male female separation. A naturally high testosterone female is not the same as a transitioned individual that started with pure male biology (and advantages)

 

[Yoshi]

This is my own anecdotal experience but after 10 years on hormones I am incredibly weak as compared to before I started estrogen and a testosterone blocker.

Last year I tried to get fit and it tooks months for me to be able to do one pull up. I could never get more than one. I feel like my little estrogen powered muscles can't handle my 5'10" 150lb frame.

But this is the experience of an awful lot of people. Pull ups are hard to many men, many men need months to learn pull ups, I even know one man who has tried to get to an unassisted pull up for over a year and did not manage. I don't think this says a lot about the issue at hand and especially, I don't think anyone doubts that doing hormone therapy puts you at a disadvantage when compared to other biological males. The question is just if it eradicates all of the advantage that comes from being a biological male, which, to my best understanding, is not the case.