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[Vicetrailia]

They need to change the rules. He has no choice but to compete against females whom he has advantages over. He much rather compete against males, so let him. Texas move faster please. Free him from the box. He's trying to make something of his life through a sport that he loves.

 

[Toxi]

That would seem like the moral thing to do in this case.

You want a high school student to stop competing in a sport he loves? Okay.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

You want a high school student to stop competing in a sport he loves? Okay.

You want an entire league of high school students to be placed at an unfair advantage in a sport they love?

 

[Matty77]

The law should allow him to wrestle boys. And while he shouldn't be wrestling girls (my opinion is once your actually on hormones and transitioning you should be competing with your gender not what your birth certificate says) maybe the people with a problem here should put their lawsuits into changing the law not banning the kid.

Like the bathroom bill this smacks of trans erasure, where things are set up not just to punish but to literaly erase trans people whether through making them have to not participate, to having to hide in the closet, and that's not okay.

 

[Vicetrailia]

You want an entire league of high school students to be placed at an unfair advantage in a sport they love?

They're putting him in a box and oppressing his potential. It's not the same the other way around. Rules need to change for his situation.

 

[scamander]

That just telling the women to 'get over it' is asinine.

Some of them have dedicated their whole lives to a sport only to stand no chance against a trans woman.

This might be the only route to college for some of them. It's not a weekend hobby.

The same might be the case for the trans-man. So fuck him, right? Everyone that is not okay with him competing against girls, should file a lawsuit against the state of Texas for this rule and not against him.

You want an entire league of high school students to be placed at an unfair advantage in a sport they love?

To me that's still the lesser evil, yes.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

The same might be the case for the trans-man. So fuck him, right? Everyone that is not okay with him competing against girls, should file a lawsuit against the state of Texas for this rule and not against him.

The lawsuit was filed against the league, not the guy...if anything this would get the league's ass in gear to get the rule changed.

 

[witchedwiz]

The HRT he's undergoing is making his muscle mass higher than cis females, he should be wrestling against other males.

this, sorry..
he's now transitioning into his new physique, which is ultimately different from other female competitors..
I don't think it fair for him to compete against females that aren't undergoing the same changes and would consequently be disadvantaged..
as simple as that...

this is not about bigotry or anything, this is simply accepting his/her wish for the transition and still consider the impact of the change process on the physical level during competition with girls...
Feel free to disagree based on equality principles GAFfers, but if you're aware of male vs female physique differences in general, given the same "quality" of the body of an athlethe, a male body (or male in transition body) will have a clear-cut advantage in most strenght-based sports and that's against competing..

I admit that this sets a problematic situation for this high school student, but at the same time I would rather inconvenience him, than sets an unfair precedent for the whole other competitors..
Not gonna lie to you, this is an ugly choice, but there's no denying the possibility that there will be a clear advantage in physique of the transitioning boy in these matches...

 

[ColdPizza]

So are you saying he shouldn't be allowed to wrestle at all, as long as this policy is in place, even though it is not his fault?

I guess. He should sue the state to change the rules.

It's not the other girl's fault he's wrestling, either. It's the state's.

 

[RoyalFool]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

Not a good idea, most sports would end up dominated by men.

They should let him wrestle guys, but I guess that same logic would allow men transitioning into women to wrestle women, which would also be unfair.

It's a tricky one. They need to let it work one way, but not they other ideally but that would exclude some folk from taking part entirely.

 

[Steel]

this, sorry..
he's now transitioning into his new physique, which is ultimately different from other female competitors..
I don't think it fair for him to compete against females that aren't undergoing the same changes and would consequently be disadvantaged..
as simple as that...

this is not about bigotry or anything, this is simply accepting his/her wish for the transition and still consider the impact of the change process on the physical level during competition with girls...
Feel free to disagree based on equality principles GAFfers, but if you're aware of male vs female physique differences in general, given the same "quality" of the body of an athlethe, a male body (or male in transition body) will have a clear-cut advantage in most strenght-based sports and that's against competing..

I admit that this sets a problematic situation for this high school student, but at the same time I would rather inconvenience him, than sets an unfair precedent for the whole other competitors..
Not gonna lie to you, this is an ugly choice, but there's no denying the possibility that there will be a clear advantage in physique of the transitioning boy in these matches...

Well, yeah, agreed. Unfortunately he's not allowed to wrestle other males. He should not be sued because the law doesn't allow him to do the right thing on this subject.

 

[Ray Wonder]

And then when it is revealed that that man is not actually trans and was abusing the system, he is stripped of any awards and barred from sports forever. Doesn't seem like a risk most would be willing to take. Being trans is not an on/off thing and no one is going to fake it forever just so they can compete against the other gender.

Being trans is not an on off thing for some? I thought there were people that feel as though they've changed again during their life. I'm not completely educated on the subject though.

See my link above for IOC recommendations.

That's fine, they're very careful, and test pretty in depth to ensure there is no advantage. Waiting until their testosterone is below 10 nanomols per litre for at least a year prior to competing. Which could take a year or two to achieve 10 nanomols per litre in the first place.

You can't know for sure that the transphobic link (that talks so much about a "boy" competing that it even kinda makes it hard to know exactly what it happened since they only mention gender identity like in the 4th paragraph) the reason the girl won has anything to do with biological diferences or she was simply better.

Because every time a trans person win or loose anything, it will always be because the person was trans, not because of skill or training or anything. And this is called prejudice

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/transgender-track-athlete-makes-history-as-controversy-stirs-around-her

Biological advantages dissappear after one year of hormone therapy.

They disappear after one year of having your testosterone level below 10 nanomols per litre, which could take a year or two to achieve in the first place.

 

[scamander]

Not a good idea, most sports would end up dominated by men.

They should let him wrestle guys, but I guess that same logic would allow men transitioning into women to wrestle women, which would also be unfair.

It's a tricky one. They need to let it work one way, but not they other ideally but that would exclude some folk from taking part entirely.

I don't know if it's true, but someone posted that you lose your biological advantages after about one year of hormone therapy anyway. Apparently in professional sports trans-people can compete against others of their gender after that time period.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

Jesus this is the same logic to argue why trans folk shouldn't be allowed in bathrooms of their actual gender.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Jesus this is the same logic to argue why trans folk shouldn't be allowed in bathrooms of their actual gender.

No it's not

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.

"Jesus how could your dumb brain come up with such stupid things"

is what I felt like you were trying to say

 

[Platy]

Reciepts

Again :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.

“It is necessary to ensure insofar as possible that trans athletes are not excluded from the opportunity to participate in sporting competition,” the IOC said in a document (pdf) posted on its website that outlines the guidelines. “The overriding sporting objective is and remains the guarantee of fair competition.

Also people are going but WHAT IF TRANS PEOPLE RULE THE SPORTS like if trans people were invented in the year 2010's

 

[excelsiorlef]

As always I am so glad the reasoning for why trans folk should be denied things is well what if some asshole cisgender folks do xyz....


Like thanks

 

[Rumblebones]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

This is ignorant and dangerous. Gender division allow women to compete, why take that away from them and needlessly endanger their health more?

To me that's still the lesser evil, yes.

It's not. I've made the argument that allowing the male teen to compete would curve the rules to change but you seem content to weigh the needs of one over the many regardless of whether the rules change. That's not okay.

 

[ColdPizza]

To me that's still the lesser evil, yes.

Even if their safety is at risk? WTF is wrong with you?

 

[metalslimer]

The rule needs to be changed and he shouldn't have to stop until it is. End of story

 

[excelsiorlef]

No it's not

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.

"Jesus how could your dumb brain come up with such stupid things"

is what I felt like you were trying to say

Your exact argument was well what's to stop boys from just claiming they're girls.... this is exactly what is said about bathrooms

 

[Platy]

As always I am so glad the reasoning for why trans folk should be denied things is well what if some asshole cisgender folks do xyz....


Like thanks

Yeah .... even if the idea that we have some advantage is true ... lets trade them !

I win medals and you can use the bathroom on public spaces, not having to fear for your life, people respect who you are and other stuff like that ><

 

[Earthstrike]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

The emasculation of the male given that he'd have to crossdress everyday and take hormones that kill his sex drive. Pro-tip: Men won't go through with this.

 

[Apathy]

this, sorry..
he's now transitioning into his new physique, which is ultimately different from other female competitors..
I don't think it fair for him to compete against females that aren't undergoing the same changes and would consequently be disadvantaged..
as simple as that...

this is not about bigotry or anything, this is simply accepting his/her wish for the transition and still consider the impact of the change process on the physical level during competition with girls...
Feel free to disagree based on equality principles GAFfers, but if you're aware of male vs female physique differences in general, given the same "quality" of the body of an athlethe, a male body (or male in transition body) will have a clear-cut advantage in most strenght-based sports and that's against competing..

I admit that this sets a problematic situation for this high school student, but at the same time I would rather inconvenience him, than sets an unfair precedent for the whole other competitors..
Not gonna lie to you, this is an ugly choice, but there's no denying the possibility that there will be a clear advantage in physique of the transitioning boy in these matches...

No one us arguing against this. He's literally not allowed to wrestle other boys because of a rule. He wants to wrestle so this archaic rule says "well because you were born female you can only wrestle females". The boy is innocent here.

 

[Forearm Star]

It's sad for all involved. Pretty complex and really hard to figure out where a compromise should be. Of course in this particular case letting the student wrestle in the class he identifies with would be best.

Long term though, there could be issues with people trying to take advantage of the system, same with anything else. There just needs to be a better way of filtering to make sure the system doesn't get exploited.

 

[scamander]

It's not. I've made the argument that allowing the male teen to compete would curve the rules to change but you seem content to weigh the needs of one over the many regardless of whether the rules change. That's not okay.

I think the rules should be changed, but I also think that as long as they are as they are, the kid shouldn't be excluded from the sport and I stand by it.

Even if their safety is at risk? WTF is wrong with you?

Oh, come on. Their safety isn't at risk.

The rule needs to be changed and he shouldn't have to stop until it is. End of story

.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

The rule needs to be changed and he shouldn't have to stop until it is. End of story

So what do you do when the competitions are going to degrade into his opponents just continuing to forfeit? Why bother having a competition at all then? Should everybody just show up on the first day to watch some guy get a trophy, the end? Is that really going to help his self esteem, as if it's not already taking a hit by having to compete with girls?

 

[thelatestmodel]

Did you read the OP? It's not long ffs.

Yes I did. Very, very carefully. You're saying "well, his only option is to wrestle girls because that's the rules", which adds nothing to the discussion.

My point wasn't about what is happening, it was about what should be happening.

 

[Faddy]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

Males would win easily in every weight class due to two factors.

Males have less body fat than females which allow them to have more muscle mass.
Testosterone makes a huge difference to physical performance.

 

[witchedwiz]

The emasculation of the male given that he'd have to crossdress everyday and take hormones that kill his sex drive. Pro-tip: Men won't go through with this.

I've seen parents giving the name "Dovahkiin" to their son for a few games..
http://www.pcgamer.com/parents-name-child-dovahkiin-earn-a-lifetimes-worth-of-bethesda-games/
someone that wants something is oft' willing to give up a lot even for stupid thing, let alone a golden medal

 

[I H8 Memes]

The only fair way to do this is to allow all the girls to take steroids.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Your exact argument was well what's to stop boys from just claiming they're girls.... this is exactly what is said about bathrooms

Bathrooms, and analyzing the advantages/disadvantages of being born with a specific physical body are not the same. My point is to highlight this, which no one has really counterpointed, basically:

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.

The emasculation of the male given that he'd have to crossdress everyday and take hormones that kill his sex drive. Pro-tip: Men won't go through with this.

Crossdress? That's not a requirement. The IOC requires that you do hormone treatment, but highschool and other places do not.

 

[scamander]

Yes I did. Very, very carefully. You're saying "well, his only option is to wrestle girls because that's the rules", which adds nothing to the discussion.

My point wasn't about what is happening, it was about what should be happening.

Well, you made it sound like it was his choice to compete against girls. He certainly should be allowed to compete against boys. But as long as he isn't, he shouldn't be excluded from the sport completely.

 

[stupei]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

You realize the film Ladybugs isn't a documentary, right?

It's seems that in every situation women are delegated as less important to protect a person's feelings.

As if their only purpose in life is to serve. This entire thing is about sacrificing a safe space for women.


You ever play a sport?

The wrestling arena is not a "safe space for women." That's absurd.

 

[Ray Wonder]

You realize the film Ladybugs isn't a documentary, right?

Never heard of it

 

[Glass Shark]

Incredibly tough situation. He should be able to wrestle in the boys' league, obviously. We are going to have a really rough time over the next few decades updating antiquated laws to account for a more modern and sophisticated view of gender and sexuality.

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

This is a really stupid thing to suggest and not that far removed from saying people are going to pretend to be trans to prey on people in bathrooms. Even in the miniscule chance that actually happens, why should actual trans people be responsible for the shitty behavior of everyone else?

 

[dream]

The wrestling arena is not a "safe space for women." That's absurd.

But it certainly should be a space--especially at the high school level--where athletes can expect to compete against people whose performance is not enhanced by the use of drugs, no?

 

[TenCentCoast]

GAF only cares about transpeople when their sports are being ruined by us. "Oh, we definitely need to put some rules in place for this! These transgenders are gonna steal all our sports titles!"
Note that I agree he should be competing in the male division. He wouldn't be doing nearly as well there, but because that is the gender he identifies as, I imagine it would be a hell of a lot more comfortable for him. I know that had I been identifying as female back when I was still competing in sports I would have rathered that I was in the female league.

 

[RecRoulette]

Tough situation, unfair for most of the parties involved.

 

[God Dayumm]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

I don't. Biological sex should only matter in medical science. For everything else, people should participate as the gender they identify at the moment of registration.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Bathrooms, and analyzing the advantages/disadvantages of being born with a specific physical body are not the same. My point is to highlight this, which no one has really counterpointed, basically:

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.
.

No you're exact argument to which I was replying to was that cis boys will pretend to be trans... that's literally the argument you made, now you're arguing something entirely different and pretending like magically you didn't say the post blow:

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

 

[kirblar]

Do y'all realize that women have varying amounts of testosterone already, some unusually high. It's called hyperandrogenism, should they be barred from competing with women?

If a woman has male levels of testosterone, they do bar them.

This is completely on the laws being antiquated and lawmakers being ignorant and stupid-not on the kid at all.

 

[Violence Jack]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

This is my opinion as well. If girls want to wrestle guys, and vice versa, let them as long as they are in the same weight class. That's how it was during a few of my Judo competitions.

Plus, Saved By The Bell taught me early on that this wasn't a big deal.

Insanely shortsighted and would completely destroy women's sports.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, how would this destroy women's sports if we are talking about wrestling? If all schools had co-ed wrestling programs, and competed with each other based on weight rather than gender, I don't see how that's not being inclusive.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Get rid of gender classes, and do it weight based.

Like someone mentioned earlier about the catholic school.

Insanely shortsighted and would completely destroy women's sports.

These threads always break down to people who value competition versus those who value inclusion. I'm afraid there's no way (that we currently know of) to keep female athletes competitive with men, trans men, or trans women. Testosterone is that big of an advantage.

 

[Sapiens]

Well, he should not be allowed to compete at all. Problem solved.

 

[stupei]

Never heard of it

It's an early 90s trashy comedy that treats your premise of "what if a cis straight man pretended to be a woman to join a women's team" with all the serious consideration it deserves.

But it certainly should be a space--especially at the high school level--where athletes can expect to compete against people whose performance is not enhanced by the use of drugs, no?

I didn't say otherwise. Obviously the guy should be wrestling other guys. But until the rules are changed, he shouldn't be punished for it.

But calling the wrestling arena a "safe space for women" is both incredibly condescending and suggest a fragility of women, particularly female athletes, that is kind of astounding.

Why do women's rights seem to matter most when we are perceived as requiring someone to defend us from the oh so scary trans people?

 

[Apathy]

GAF only cares about transpeople when their sports are being ruined by us. "Oh, we definitely need to put some rules in place for this! These transgenders are gonna steal all our sports titles!"
Note that I agree he should be competing in the male division. He wouldn't be doing nearly as well there, but because that is the gender he identifies as, I imagine it would be a hell of a lot more comfortable for him. I know that had I been identifying as female back when I was still competing in sports I would have rathered that I was in the female league.

Come on now, really? This is the some messed up generalization. This isn't about transpeople stealing titles, it's about changing a shitty rule and also treating a person with how they identify. Gaf isn't, at least on a whole, full of anti trans people or people who only care about trans rights when something like this happens

 

[Rimon-hanit]

You realize the film Ladybugs isn't a documentary, right?



The wrestling arena is not a "safe space for women." That's absurd.

How would you define a safe space?

 

[The Faceless Master]

seems like transitions in either direction get complaints either with "we should obey the rules" or "the rules didn't account for this" leaving transgender people on the outside either way.

what the fuck?