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[Platy]

I'm not sure I'm following. So a trans man and a woman could be extremely similar is size, weight, and testosterone levels but the trans man only wrestles in a men's league because of gender identity?



Come on man.

Yes.
He will search for testosterone in no time and she will search for testosterone blockers in no time either so why disrespect their gender just because the state takes time to give proper hormones?

 

[RMI]

I would guess that's a different situation. Most states and schools don't have a girls wrestling team and she was probably wrestling on the boys team because that was the only option available to her.

In this case, a transgender boy (for clarity, born female transitioning to male,) was forced to wrestle on the girls team because the governing body's rules go off of gender assigned at birth, even though he obviously should have been wrestling on the boys team.

Good point. In this case I would just let girls wrestle on whatever team they wanted to.

 

[APF]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

Golly this argument sounds familiar.

 

[scamander]

In the short term it's one person getting screwed by a shitty policy versus an entire slew of opponents who would be screwed by a shitty policy.

Sitting out seems the best course of action.

The way I see it:
Excluding a trans kid because he is trans, even though he probably feels already excluded from large parts of Texan society.

-or-

Letting some girls fight against someone who might have some advantages over them. As soon as the tournament is over, they can move on.

 

[Platy]

I would guess that's a different situation. Most states and schools don't have a girls wrestling team and she was probably wrestling on the boys team because that was the only option available to her.

In this case, a transgender boy (for clarity, born female transitioning to male,) was forced to wrestle on the girls team because the governing body's rules go off of gender assigned at birth, even though he obviously should have been wrestling on the boys team.

So "the only option available for the person" is only OK if the person is cis ?

 

[Ray Wonder]

Would be even more OK in this case since taking out testosterone most of the time means their cis girls opponents would have more testosterone

So this case below in the link could happen a lot and you would be fine with saying that there's no advantage, thus not unfair to cis girls?

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/03/high-school-boy-wins-all-state-honors-in-girls-track-and-field/

Golly this argument sounds familiar.

Familiar to what?

 

[Rimon-hanit]

Well, according to the OP, he is not allowed to compete against boys, because of the gender in his birth certificate. So, not his fault.

I don't think two wrongs makes a right, it sucks that they prevented him from wrestling other boys, but that doesn't excuse putting the girls fighting against him at a disadvantage.

 

[v0yce]

So are you saying he shouldn't be allowed to wrestle at all, as long as this policy is in place, even though it is not his fault?



Because wrestling against girls is his only option aside from giving up on the hobby and I'm baffled some here are more okay with the latter "solution".

Best solution is to let him wrestle boys.

Next best solution I see unfortunately would be to not wrestle. That sucks and is unfair to him but its also unfair to all of his female opponents.

I'm baffled why you don't seem to care about how this is unfair to all the females he's wrestling.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Golly this argument sounds familiar.

This isn't about where to shit, it's about a sports competition and safety.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Not really the same...the person in the Op is taking a substance to increase his testosterone.

He also wants to fight guys, so just let him.

I'd be all for letting him, it's just funny that testosterone levels only seem to matter when it comes to gender in sports. I also just read that the IAAF has not yet even proven there's a substantial enough advantage to high testosterone levels for woman athletes which is why their practice of regulating hyperandrogenism has been suspended.

Of course this doesn't completely apply here due to the intake of testosterone instead of a natural cause. I do not know the levels to which HRT raises testosterone either so this might not apply at all.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Yeah? You'd allow it though?

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

You don't think a line should be drawn anywhere in the sports world?

This doesn't happen. Boys are not going to come out as trans just to wrestle girls.

Familiar to what?

The dumb arguments against letting trans people use the bathroom. Saying "I feel like I'm a woman today, let me wrestle girls and use their bathroom." is not how being trans works.

 

[Two Words]

I get how a male to female athlete competing against women can be considered an unfair advantage. There is an unfairness when it comes to sex and hormones. But I don't see how that same unfairness can happen when the person is a female to male athlete. Does a female to male athlete take a lot of hormone therapy which gives him an advantage?

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

I get how a male to female athlete competing against women can be considered an unfair advantage. There is an unfairness when it comes to sex and hormones. But I don't see how that same unfairness can happen when the person is a female to male athlete. Does a female to male athlete take a lot of hormone therapy which gives him an advantage?

Yes.

In some cases taking those hormones could also be banned by the sport.

 

[Platy]

So this case below in the link could happen a lot and you would be fine with saying that there's no advantage, thus not unfair to cis girls?

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/03/high-school-boy-wins-all-state-honors-in-girls-track-and-field/

Yes.
And HOLY SHIT that link is transphobic as fuck.

 

[APF]

This isn't about where to shit, it's about a sports competition and safety.

If a kid is taking androgen blockers I'd be more worried about her safety.

 

[Toxi]

I don't think two wrongs makes a right, it sucks that they prevented him from wrestling other boys, but that doesn't excuse putting the girls fighting against him at a disadvantage.

The only other option Beggs has is to stop wrestling.

 

[scamander]

I'm baffled why you don't seem to care about how this is unfair to all the females he's wrestling.

Because I know what that would mean to the trans-kid and how he would feel for being excluded for being the person he is. Is that less important than the other females' chances to win a competition?

 

[Ray Wonder]

This doesn't happen. Boys are not going to come out as trans just to wrestle girls.

It doesn't happen now, because it's not generally accepted and stigma free by a lot of the general public.

Let's say transitioning becomes equally as accepted as a man and a woman being married. As should be the goal. The only thing preventing a male from competing in a female league would be him just saying "I'm female, I belong in that league"

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

actually I misread the intention of the quote, sad!

 

[Toxi]

Yes.
And HOLY SHIT that link is transphobic as fuck.

It's the Daily Caller.

 

[bananafactory]

It doesn't happen now, because it's not generally accepted and stigma free by a lot of the general public.

Let's say transitioning becomes equally as accepted as a man and a woman being married. As should be the goal. The only thing preventing a male from competing in a female league would be him just saying "I'm female, I belong in that league"

Identifying as a woman is a lifestyle altering change. No one is going to go through all that effort just to wrestle in another league. And if they were faking it they'd be exposed almost immediately

This situation is going to be so unlikely and rare it's really not even worth considering

 

[Apathy]

So this case below in the link could happen a lot and you would be fine with saying that there's no advantage, thus not unfair to cis girls?

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/03/high-school-boy-wins-all-state-honors-in-girls-track-and-field/



Familiar to what?

It's the same reasoning the right wing use to stop bathroom bills. "Oh a man can just say he identifies as female and use the women's bathroom. Then you'll have perverts in your bathroom with your kids".

 

[v0yce]

Because I know what that would mean to the trans-kid and how he would feel for being excluded for being the person he is. Is that less important than the other females' chances to win a competition?

Are the females less important? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

And he's already being excluded for being the person he is. He's a boy and they're making him wrestle girls.

 

[Rimon-hanit]

The only other option Beggs has is to stop wrestling.

That would seem like the moral thing to do in this case.

 

[Platy]

It doesn't happen now, because it's not generally accepted and stigma free by a lot of the general public.

Let's say transitioning becomes equally as accepted as a man and a woman being married. As should be the goal. The only thing preventing a male from competing in a female league would be him just saying "I'm female, I belong in that league"

It is a fucking KID !

Professional sports you need to be on hormone therapy for 1 year.

Also this is school wrestling, not Russian chdren MMA

 

[Reset]

Would you say the same if he were transitioning MtF and wanted to wrestle with females?

If yes, how would you feel if this person dominated or severely hurt a girl during these matches?

Dunno not really knowledgeable about this subject so unless if I'm mistaken if they transitioned at a later age they would have an unfair advantages such as having bigger hands, longer reach,etc. Then yeah I'd be against them facing other females.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

Ok, lets say this practice becomes more popular. What's to prevent male's that identify as males from saying they identify as female, to compete in female sports?

There's a legitimate discussion to be had here about the actual situation at hand, no reason to use a slippery slope argument to turn it into something extreme and highly unlikely.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Yes.
And HOLY SHIT that link is transphobic as fuck.

Just picked a link, because I remembered the event happening. Didn't check to see if it was transphobic.

That's an interesting stance you have on the subject though. Because I feel as though it directly hurts cis females, and creates an unfair competition. We can't ignore biological advantages, when the only reason men and women are separated into leagues is the create a fair and level playing ground.

 

[scamander]

Are the females less important? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The consequences to the females end the second the tournament is over. They can move on and don't have to think about it, since it's nothing personal to them. Don't know how that is supposed to be comparable.

And he's already being excluded for being the person he is. He's a boy and they're making him wrestle girls.

I know and that sucks. But at least he can still have that hobby at all.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Are the females less important? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

And he's already being excluded for being the person he is. He's a boy and they're making him wrestle girls.

It's seems that in every situation women are delegated as less important to protect a person's feelings.

As if their only purpose in life is to serve. This entire thing is about sacrificing a safe space for women.

The consequences to the females end the second the tournament is over. They can move on and don't have to think about it, since it's nothing personal to them. Don't know how that is supposed to be comparable.

You ever play a sport?

 

[Apath]

Gender identity aside, the article mentions that the lawsuit is over someone effectively taking steroids and competing. I think that is a reasonable complaint.

 

[APF]

IOC on the subject:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

 

[HeySeuss]

My son has wrestled for several years and it's always co-ed. Didn't even know they had all girls wrestling teams.

I could see the argument tho that someone taking testosterone would have an unfair advantage against other females. Would be the equivalent of a male wrestler taking performance enhancing drugs. Obviously the purpose of the testosterone is hugely different in this case and not intended to be a performance advantage.

 

[Count Dookkake]

If the doping confers an unfair advantage, the kid shouldn't compete.

 

[ahoyhoy]

The way I see it:
Excluding a trans kid because he is trans, even though he probably feels already excluded from large parts of Texan society.

-or-

Letting some girls fight against someone who might have some advantages over them. As soon as the tournament is over, they can move on.

He's not being included so much as begrudgingly tolerated. And just because he's at more of a disadvantage in the rest of society doesn't mean he has the right to put others at a disadvantage in sports.

 

[Big Blue]

It's a pretty shitty situation, I get that he wants to wrestle, but having high testosterone levels is a bannable offense by pretty much every major governing body in sports.

 

[Nabbis]

Gender identity aside, the article mentions that the lawsuit is over someone effectively taking steroids and competing. I think that is a reasonable complaint.

Would make logical sense if physical sports were actually fair to begin with instead of having arbitrary drawn lines on what is acceptable and what is not.

At the end of the day, it's just a yelling contest.

 

[scamander]

It's seems that in every situation women are delegated as less important to protect a person's feelings.

As if their only purpose in life is to serve. This entire thing is about sacrificing a safe space for women.

Yes, that must be it. I'm on the side of the trans-kid, because I hate women.

You ever play a sport?

Yes. What are you getting at?

 

[Ray Wonder]

Identifying as a woman is a lifestyle altering change. No one is going to go through all that effort just to wrestle in another league. And if they were faking it they'd be exposed almost immediately

This situation is going to be so unlikely and rare it's really not even worth considering

You have to change your lifestyle in anyway to feel as though you're a female? That seems transphobic to assume that. But I'm not sure.

It's the same reasoning the right wing use to stop bathroom bills. "Oh a man can just say he identifies as female and use the women's bathroom. Then you'll have perverts in your bathroom with your kids".

We're talking bilogical advatanges in sports, not where you go to the bathroom. It's much more complicated.

It is a fucking KID !

Professional sports you need to be on hormone therapy for 1 year.

Also this is school wrestling, not Russian chdren MMA

I've never heard of the one year rule for hormone therapy in pro sports, you have a link? The rest of your post is pretty much handwaving the issue and argument.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

So "the only option available for the person" is only OK if the person is cis ?

That's not at all what I'm saying, and the way in which you misread it (assuming the worst of my intentions) is one of the reasons controversial topics are so hard to discuss.

First of all, I'm not making any "OK/not OK" judgements about the situation RMI mentioned, I'm merely explaining how it didn't apply to the situation the thread is about.

Secondly, if you were to push me on whether it's "OK/not OK," all I would say is that all kids should have the opportunity to wrestle. The problem is that for a variety of reasons, many schools and states only sanction boys wrestling. The best solution for cis girls and transgender girls that wanted to wrestle would be to have a girls team. Barring that, the next best solution would be to allow them to wrestle with the boys team as a coed team. I don't know the details of the situation RMI describes, but I would guess that due to participation levels, a separate girls team isn't practical so, yes, I would be OK with girls (cis and trans) competing on a coed team.

 

[John Kowalski]

“I respect [Beggs’ situation] completely"

I bet he said her

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Yes. What are you getting at?

That just telling the women to 'get over it' is asinine.

Some of them have dedicated their whole lives to a sport only to stand no chance against a trans woman.

This might be the only route to college for some of them. It's not a weekend hobby.

 

[bananafactory]

You have to change your lifestyle in anyway to feel as though you're a female? That seems transphobic to assume that.

Maybe I worded that wrong. You don't have to change how you live your life, but it's a decision that will change everything in it. Your rights, how people treat you, what you can and cannot do. This thread is a perfect example of that.

My point is that very few people would go through that amount of effort simply to compete against a different gender in a sporting league.

 

[APF]

you have a link?

See my link above for IOC recommendations.

 

[Brian Griffin]

It doesn't happen now, because it's not generally accepted and stigma free by a lot of the general public.

Let's say transitioning becomes equally as accepted as a man and a woman being married. As should be the goal. The only thing preventing a male from competing in a female league would be him just saying "I'm female, I belong in that league"

And then when it is revealed that that man is not actually trans and was abusing the system, he is stripped of any awards and barred from sports forever. Doesn't seem like a risk most would be willing to take. Being trans is not an on/off thing and no one is going to fake it forever just so they can compete against the other gender.

 

[Platy]

Just picked a link, because I remembered the event happening. Didn't check to see if it was transphobic.

That's an interesting stance you have on the subject though. Because I feel as though it directly hurts cis females, and creates an unfair competition. We can't ignore biological advantages, when the only reason men and women are separated into leagues is the create a fair and level playing ground.

Biological advantages dissappear after one year of hormone therapy.

And some would say that even before it is no more biological advantage than michael phelps has over other normal looking human males.

You can't know for sure that the transphobic link (that talks so much about a "boy" competing that it even kinda makes it hard to know exactly what it happened since they only mention gender identity like in the 4th paragraph) the reason the girl won has anything to do with biological diferences or she was simply better.

Because every time a trans person win or loose anything, it will always be because the person was trans, not because of skill or training or anything. And this is called prejudice

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

And then when it is revealed that that man is not actually trans and was abusing the system, he is stripped of any awards and barred from sports forever. Doesn't seem like a risk most would be willing to take. Being trans is not an on/off thing and no one is going to fake it forever just so they can compete against the other gender.

How do you prove this?

Biological advantages dissappear after one year of hormone therapy.

Reciepts

 

[Hopeford]

Man, that sort of thing is complicated. Glad it doesn't really come into my sport much because of the way it's run, but man, this is complicated.

This is a shitty situation and the dude should be allowed to wrestle dudes. Sucks that he's been kept wrestling people he doesn't want to.

I mean, not blaming him on anything he's doing mind - guy wants to wrestle, state says "you can't wrestle against people of your gender" and he's basically shrugging and being like "This is super dumb but okay, I'll wrestle other people then you weird person." Like dude is playing the hand he's been dealt. That said, yeah, guy should be able to wrestle men because he's a fucking dude.

 

[APF]

Those advantages likely disappear incredibly fast if we're talking about a teenager who hasn't already had years and years of higher androgen levels.

 

[Ray Wonder]

When leagues were first separated into male and female leagues, they weren't doing it because the two groups of people identified themselves as male or female. They did it because of the biological advantages and disadvantages of being born with their specific physical body.