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Transgender golfer challenging LPGA "female at birth rule"

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A

Anerythristic

Member
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/d...PGA-s-rule-you-have-to-be-bor?urn=golf-276806

A transgender golfer is challenging the LPGA's "female at birth" rule, claiming that it unfairly infringes upon her civil rights.

First, the background: Lana Lawless is the plaintiff. Five years ago, Lawless underwent a sex change operation. Two years ago, she won a 2008 women's long-drive competition with a tee shot of 254 yards. But now, she's run up against the LPGA -- which, surprisingly enough, had a "female at birth" rule already on the books -- and she's finding it difficult to make headway.
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As a result, Lawless has filed suit in San Francisco federal court with the intention of barring the LPGA from holding tournaments in California until it changes its policy banning transgender players. Also named in the suit are three LPGA sponsors and the Long Drivers of America, which sponsored the '08 contest she won. This year, the company changed its rules on transgender players to match those of the LPGA.

"I am, in all respects, legally and physically female," Lawless said in a statement Wednesday. "The state of California recognizes me as such and the LPGA should not be permitted to come into California and blatantly violate my rights. I just want to have the same opportunity to play professional golf as any other woman."

The obvious issue, of course, is that being legally and physically female doesn't automatically reroute one's physical abilities from the male framework to the female one.
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Thought this was interesting. I guess that if a female transgender athelete keeps the same physical stength they had when they were a man it can be seen as an unfair advantage, then again there are some really strong "female at birth" women.
 
G

Guevara

Member
Lana-Lawless-4x3_370x278.jpg
 
J

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
i agree with the female at birth rule

she should be allowed to play in the men's PGA if she wants but not the woman's
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
Gotta say I'm with the LPGA on this one. Just because you have a sex change doesn't mean your innate abilities as a man have changed as well. Though I wonder why they even have a male/female league. I would have figured men and women would be on equal footing on a game that relies on precision skill.
 
T

themadcowtipper

Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
Seems like she would have an unfair advantage.

lightless_shado said:
dis gon' be good.

personally I think we shouldn't even have gender divided sections for golf.
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Come on even the worse PGA Golfer can most likely hit it further then the Best LPGA Golfer.
 
G

grumble

Member
Yeah, the masculine features would make you a beast at golf in the LPGA. Unfair advantage.

There should definitely be gender divisions for golf. The degree of competitiveness is uneven.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Teh Hamburglar said:
Gotta say I'm with the LPGA on this one. Just because you have a sex change doesn't mean your innate abilities as a man have changed as well. Though I wonder why they even have a male/female league. I would have figured men and women would be on equal footing on a game that relies on precision skill.
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Two years ago, she won a 2008 women's long-drive competition with a tee shot of 254 yards.
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.
 
A

Anerythristic

Member
Zoe said:
Whatever happened to the Olympic rules with regards to that African girl?
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in the article

The International Olympic Committee has permitted transgender athletes since 2004, provided the athlete underwent surgery and no less than two years of hormone-replacement therapy. But it's obviously a potential hot-button issue; recall the story of Caster Semenya, the South African sprinter who faced constant questions about her gender last year.
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but I don't know what the resolution was to that issue.
 
L

lightless_shado

Banned
themadcowtipper said:
Seems like she would have an unfair advantage.




Come on even the worse PGA Golfer can most likely hit it further then the Best LPGA Golfer.
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I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
 
T

themadcowtipper

Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
lightless_shado said:
I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
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Yes but does the Pars stay the same ????
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
lightless_shado said:
I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
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Longer drives are a huge advantage in golf.
 
S

samus i am

Member
lightless_shado said:
I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
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Are you a golfer? What you wrote is pretty far from true.
 
H

Herpes Reasons

Banned
As a result, Lawless has filed suit in San Francisco federal court with the intention of barring the LPGA from holding tournaments in California until it changes its policy banning transgender players
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selfish bitch asshole.
 
D

Duki

Banned
lightless_shado said:
I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
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this is the least accurate thing i have ever read
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
lightless_shado said:
WELL OKAY I ADMIT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOLF.

damn gaf you can be such a harsh mistress.
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You've never played a golf video game before? :D


I'm all for transgendered rights in the workplace, but I think this is stretching that definition of the law.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Teh Hamburglar said:
Gotta say I'm with the LPGA on this one. Just because you have a sex change doesn't mean your innate abilities as a man have changed as well. Though I wonder why they even have a male/female league. I would have figured men and women would be on equal footing on a game that relies on precision skill.
Click to expand...
Average distance covered between men and women are large enough that they have different tees to hit from. A strong PGA player can hit a 150 yard shot with just a wedge, but for a LPGA golfer she'd likely need to use a 7-iron. Distance affects all shots, not just drives.

Very rare for women golfers to consistently have the length to keep up with the men. Michelle Wie is one of the few examples capable of it, she's routinely had drives go over 300 yards.
 
O

out0v0rder

Member
there is a difference in upper body strength right?


I think ALL sports should be coed though. Men and Women are the same? LETS FIND OUT!


men and women are not the same



TheRagnCajun said:
I think we need a transgender golf league.
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two transgender golf leagues
 
E

Evlar

Banned
As far as I can tell the LPGA is not barring transgender individuals. A transgender man would be allowed to compete.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
out0v0rder said:
there is a difference in upper body strength right?


I think ALL sports should be coed though. Men and Women are the same? LETS FIND OUT!


men and women are not the same





two transgender golf leagues
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:lol
 
M

mollipen

Member
Anerythristic said:
I guess that if a female transgender athelete keeps the same physical stength they had when they were a man
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They don't. Once you're on hormones to transition from female to male, one of the things that changes is that you lose your "male" muscle mass.
 
Burger

Burger

Member
If you were a women golfer, how do you think you would feel if a transgender person was allowed to compete in your league, and subsequently won?

Perhaps she should think about the rights of other people before claiming hers are being trod on.
 
Meus Renaissance

Meus Renaissance

Member
Reminds me of the debate regarding Wimbledon. Women play less matches to get the final and less sets but wanted equal pay as the men. I have to admit, I was unsure as to what position to side with on that. I remember reading that both the Williams sister once challenged a male tennis player, convinced they could beat one of them - although he was ranked somewhere in 200's. They got mulled. Both of them on the same day.

Now the sisters don't contest that they can beat a male opponent in the top ranks, they readily say otherwise, but it does highlight one of the points in this debate. At the same time there is a debate of equal pay here in the UK and the fundamental hypothesis is that if a woman can do the job just as well as a male peer, then she deserves equal pay and perks. But in a question of physical sports, where gender is a factor for ability (e.g. sheer power and stamina), you would have to discriminate (which is why we divide the two genders) on that. So why not on pay.

Having said that, they try and train just as hard as any male athlete so maybe the equal pay can be justified on that.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Burger said:
If you were a women golfer, how do you think you would feel if a transgender person was allowed to compete in your league, and subsequently won?
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I wouldn't worry about it, because someone like Michelle Wie can far out-hit the person in question by a good 50-100 yards and has already won LPGA events.
 
J

Jim Stark

Neo Member
Zoe said:
Long drive quote
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Is that long for the women's category? Maybe I suck at googling but the results I found were for the men and it said amateur men hit 200 yards, professional PGA players regularly hit 350 or higher, and professional long drive players hit 400+. The article doesn't seem to list the results of the others. All of the results for 2008 Womens Long Drive competition link to the TG article now...
 
A

Askia47

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
Reminds me of the debate regarding Wimbledon. Women play less matches to get the final and less sets but wanted equal pay as the men. I have to admit, I was unsure as to what position to side with on that. I remember reading that both the Williams sister once challenged a male tennis player, convinced they could beat one of them - although he was ranked somewhere in 200's. They got mulled. Both of them on the same day.

Now the sisters don't contest that they can beat a male opponent in the top ranks, they readily say otherwise, but it does highlight one of the points in this debate. At the same time there is a debate of equal pay here in the UK and the fundamental hypothesis is that if a woman can do the job just as well as a male peer, then she deserves equal pay and perks. But in a question of physical sports, where gender is a factor for ability (e.g. sheer power and stamina), you would have to discriminate (which is why we divide the two genders) on that. So why not on pay.

Having said that, they try and train just as hard as any male athlete so maybe the equal pay can be justified on that.
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They should play the same amount, they can train for it.
 
B

BamYouHaveAids

Member
shidoshi said:
They don't. Once you're on hormones to transition from female to male, one of the things that changes is that you lose your "male" muscle mass.
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Yet they would still have more muscle mass than the average woman, especially if they kept active competing in athletic events. Muscle mass doesn't disappear, it takes quite awhile for males and females to lose significant muscle mass.
 
J

Jim Stark

Neo Member
shidoshi said:
They don't. Once you're on hormones to transition from female to male, one of the things that changes is that you lose your "male" muscle mass.
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It depends on when you start on hormones, if you start long after puberty you will always be bigger. A friend of mine explained it to me, it stops production but it won't change your frame all that much unless you start early. She started at age 21 and is still a rather large woman. That's why there's such a huge controversy about being able to start when they are 9 or 10 years old, if you start when you're still in that pre-puberty stage you wouldn't be able to tell.
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Jim Stark said:
Is that long for the women's category?
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Top average driving distance for LPGA players is around 270-275 right now. A select few can go even longer and keep up with the pro men, but those are usually for par 5s and dependent on tournament conditions, weather, course layout, etc.

Here's Michelle Wie from a tourney 4 years ago, 340 yard drive. She was just 17 at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQqAqGr7Njo&fmt=18
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
Jim Stark said:
Is that long for the women's category? Maybe I suck at googling but the results I found were for the men and it said amateur men hit 200 yards, professional PGA players regularly hit 350 or higher, and professional long drive players hit 400+. The article doesn't seem to list the results of the others. All of the results for 2008 Womens Long Drive competition link to the TG article now...
Click to expand...

Seems like Long Drivers of America doesn't do many events with women... Here are the results for the 2010 Diamond in the Desert

WOMEN'S DIVISION

Champion: Alicia Zuckerman, 246

Runner-up: Brenda Prudham, 240
Click to expand...
 
E

eznark

Banned
lightless_shado said:
I'm pretty sure they play on courses that are the same size. If anything, women would be more accurate because they wouldn't hit too far.
Click to expand...
:lol

So you've never played golf?
 
J

J-Rod

Member
I thought women used different clubs that flex more. I have a coworker that uses his wife's driver because he can hit farther with it.
 
Zoe

Zoe

Member
XiaNaphryz said:
Here are the LPGA stats, just choose Avg Driving Distance in the drop down:

http://www.lpga.com/player_stats.aspx?mid=4&pid=5

The top 30 all average over 255 yards.
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Yes, but those people probably wouldn't qualify for (or bother with) these events which is why I looked up the other group that she's suing :p

J-Rod said:
I thought women used different clubs that flex more. I have a coworker that uses his wife's driver because he can hit farther with it.
Click to expand...

They don't have to use different clubs (composite). Men can use them too.
 
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