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[entremet]

I've tried to find an example of one in the sport, but didn't get anywhere.

For reference, Lisa Leslie, a former woman’s pro basketball player, is 6’5” and weighed 170 in her playing days.

The athlete in the OP is 6’2 and is 220. Different sports of course. That’s a 50 pound difference. That’s a massive advantage in a contact sport.

 

[Wafflecakes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Not a contact sport so not comparable.

Edit: Also not comparable is size.

 

[Veitsev]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Chris Mosier is 5-9 and 132 pounds.

 

[oneils]

The basic reasoning comes down to 'cause you're really a man'. It's pretty standard fare transmisogyny.

I thought I understood this. But maybe I don’t. Doesn’t the reasoning come down to “because you are a male?”
No one is misgendering her from what I can tell.

 

[llien]

It would've been nice if they gave her a proper response much earlier rather than waiting until just days before the draft. That could deserve criticism, the fact they waited almost until the last minute to tell her.

Hopefully now they'll have a clearly detailed policy, that everybody knows beforehand.

I'm not 100% familiar with the official Olympic rules for trans athletes, but I believe even the Olympics requires trans athletes to be on hormones for several years before they are eligible to play. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, even more strict (cap on testosterone levels), no restrictions on trans men:

n 2003, a committee convened by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) Medical Commission drew up new guidelines for participation of athletes who had undergone sex reassignment. The report listed three conditions for participation. First, athletes must have undergone sex reassignment surgery, including changes in the external genitalia and gonadectomy. Second, athletes must show legal recognition of their gender. Third, athletes must have undergone hormone therapy for an appropriate time before participation, with two years being the suggested time.[4]

It was not until 2004 that the IOC allowed transsexual athletes to participate in the Olympic Games.[5]

In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".[3][6] The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility. Athletes who transitioned from a woman to a man were allowed to compete without restriction. These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics. While there were rumors that two closeted transgender athletes competed in Rio, these rumors have not been substantiated.[7]

 

[CaviarMeths]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Did you link the wrong page? Chris is not a cisgender woman and not anywhere near Hannah's size.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I've tried to find an example of one in the sport, but didn't get anywhere.

People In the thread have already looked for a woman near those dimensions in he sport and didn't get anywhere close.

Do you have an example of a born female player in the sport of similar build and weight to the woman in the op?(without the use of steroids or what have you)

It's a hypothetical for the sake of establishing intent. If it's truly for safety of other players then the answer should be yes. What relevance is an example?

 

[Heckler456]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

That's FtM though. And not a contact sport.

It's a hypothetical for the sake of establishing intent. If it's truly for safety of other players then the answer should be yes. What relevance is an example?

Not really a fair hypothetical when it's seemingly impossible for a woman to naturally get that kind of physique.

 

[Fliesen]

Chris Mosier is 5-9 and 132 pounds.

And FTM, and in a non contact sport.

There's "advantage" and then there's "no one of your sex in the preceding and proceeding century will ever reach this level of physicality even with performance enhancers."

I think I found this stat during a previous discussion about track, but thousands of high school male athletes are currently faster than the fastest women of all time. Those are not the kind of advantages that you can overcome by trying hard or telling people to "get over it", especially in a contact sport. It would be like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring with a welterweight, someone could get killed.

It is terribly unfortunate that cases like these end up with athletes ostracized, but the alternative - completely trivializing female sex accomplishment in sport - is inevitable if you allow completely co-ed leagues or place no practical limitations on gender reassignment advantage.

Edit: even Serena would only be a below average player in coed tennis.

I think this a very sensible argument.
The fact of the matter is, we do have sports segregated by gender, not because of the differences in gender roles / identity, but because of the inherent advantage being born and growing up male gives you, on a physiological level.

Of course i'm absolutely in favour of handling things on a case by case basis, but i don't think it's fair to generally open up women's sports to MtF trans women. Not because i'm a bigot who'd argue "oh well, then you'd have dudes claiming they're women to wipe the floor with their competitors" but because i'm not sure cisgender women would like it if there'd be records set by MtF athletes that no cisgender woman would ever be able to beat.
Like, the fastes female sprinter EVER is still almost a second slower than Usain Bolt on the 100m track.
edit: The 2692th is still 0.4 seconds faster...

Sure it's not fair to the individual athlete in question :/

 

[hotcyder]

This thread is utterly ridiculous - Transphobia is A-OK if Competition is involved? Come the hell on.

 

[hobblygobbly]

A compromise I think for situations like this is to allow them to play in the men's league even though they identify as a woman (if they personally would want this and not specifically to play in the women's league). In other words not to lock out a transwoman from either men or women's leagues so they can't play at all. Otherwise I'm not sure how one could fairly deal with this in a contact sport, especially heavy ones like rugby.

 

[entremet]

This thread is utterly ridiculous - Transphobia is A-OK if Competition is involved? Come the hell on.

You just a reduced an incredibly complex topic to histrionics.

Let me ask you a question, why does sex segregation exists in modern sports? Why not just have mixed sex competition?

 

[Heckler456]

A compromise I think for situations like this is to allow them to play in the men's league even though they identify as a woman (if they personally would want this and not specifically to play in the women's league). Otherwise I'm not sure how one could fairly deal with this in a contact sport, especially heavy ones like rugby.

MtF get their testosterone suppressed, no? That wouldn't really be in their best interest either, I think.

I think a case by case basis is probably the best option.

 

[G.ZZZ]

10 nanomole/l of testosterone is still ridicolously high.

Over 4 nm/l of testosterone is sign of medical issues for an adult woman. It's like accepting a dude doping and more than doubling its testosterone levels. Ask anyone lifting how it's like to take testosterone.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

This thread is utterly ridiculous - Transphobia is A-OK if Competition is involved? Come the hell on.

Have you read any of the replies before coming in and screaming transphobia?

Theres some well written thoughtful posts that explain exactly why you are talking out of your ass

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Not really a fair hypothetical when it's seemingly impossible for a woman to naturally get that kind of physique.

It's absolutely not. Valerie Adams is a 6'4" 265 pound Olympic shot-putter. I didn't use her as an example because shot-putting is not a contact sport. But it's ignorant to deny ciswoman can potentially have that body structure.

And even were that not the case, why the avoidance in answering the question?

 

[Platy]

ITT - People compare boys and men full of testosterone to trans women

I love how being born with stuff that turns into a good athlete is only unfair if you are not cis.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

It's a hypothetical for the sake of establishing intent. If it's truly for safety of other players then the answer should be yes. What relevance is an example?

Fine. The answer is probably not but it's borderline physically impossible for it to happen, which is why you were asked for an example of a female athlete that isn't transitioning who reached similar height/weight in a similar contact sport. So that the answer isn't no, it doesn't really matter, because context is still important.

Edit: I see you've now given an example of a shotputter. That's appreciated.

 

[cromofo]

This thread is utterly ridiculous - Transphobia is A-OK if Competition is involved? Come the hell on.

This post is utterly ridiculous.

 

[diunxx]

It was the right decision, the safety of the other players should always come first.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Fine. The answer is probably not but it's borderline physically impossible for it to happen, which is why you were asked for an example of a female athlete that isn't transitioning who reached similar height/weight in a similar contact sport. So that the answer isn't no, it doesn't really matter, because context is still important.

Since you're so obsessed with an example:

It's absolutely not. Valerie Adams is a 6'4" 265 pound Olympic shot-putter. I didn't use her as an example because shot-putting is not a contact sport. But it's ignorant to deny ciswoman can potentially have that body structure.

And even were that not the case, why the avoidance in answering the question?

Were she to instead want to play Football would she have been denied?

 

[toddhunter]

I've tried to find an example of one in the sport, but didn't get anywhere.

Fine. The answer is probably not but it's borderline physically impossible for it to happen, which is why you were asked for an example of a female athlete that isn't transitioning who reached similar height/weight in a similar contact sport. So that the answer isn't no, it doesn't really matter, because context is still important.

Look to people from New Zealand/Tonga/Samoa.

The NZ rugby team for example have Aotearoa Mata'u who is listed as over 6ft and 133kg. Here is her next to a player from Hong Kong.

I would have no trouble with putting Hannah Mouncey up against her in Rugby... although I would think Hannah might not be so keen!

This is where the AFL's "the stage of maturity of the AFLW competition, its current player cohort" stance is understandable, but only if they have a plan to actually integrate girls like Hannah, or indeed girls like Aotearoa into the game at some point. As more money flows into the sport it is only natural that the bigger and stronger girls will take up AFL as well. This might be as simple as training the girls in tackling technique, but will likely involve additional and different training.

The claim that it is "borderline physically impossible" is absurd.

 

[valkyre]

I agree with their decision. The physical advantages are way too much not to take them into account. Her physique, strength, weight are determined by her original gender. Which in sports, makes a difference.

I know its tricky and even sad for her, but its sports and I dont think that things like this can be in any way avoided in the future.

It's absolutely not. Valerie Adams is a 6'4" 265 pound Olympic shot-putter. I didn't use her as an example because shot-putting is not a contact sport. But it's ignorant to deny ciswoman can potentially have that body structure.

And even were that not the case, why the avoidance in answering the question?

The difference here is that Valerie has been trained as a shot-putter not a contact sport like AFL. If she was playing in AFL, you can be very certain that her physique would be massively different. Also its good to make proper comparisons just to have a better idea, so in that sense just look at some top competition male shot-putters and compare their physique with Valerie's. Dont get me wrong Valerie looks like a beast, but in comparison with male shot putters, well there is a clear difference...

 

[Kinyou]

Sounds like they want to wait until her transition has further progressed which sounds fair to me.

 

[entremet]

ITT - People compare boys and men full of testosterone to trans women

I love how being born with stuff that turns into a good athlete is only unfair if you are not cis.

I think the major concern here is the permanent efffects in bone structure that male hormones have, specifically for a contact sport.

It makes the decision trickier. It’s possible more time off male hormones could help, do a longer wait, but atheletes have a short Prime so even trickier.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

impossible" is absurd.

Indeed. I was basing it on the decision and what was clearly not a good enough brief Google search. My bad.

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[G.ZZZ]

ITT - People compare boys and men full of testosterone to trans women

I love how being born with stuff that turns into a good athlete is only unfair if you are not cis.

I love how are you ignoring the fact that FtM athletes don't get restrictions and a) no one cares , and b ) they're not cis.

Another fact: Testosterone doping is banned in sports.

 

[Heckler456]

It's absolutely not. Valerie Adams is a 6'4" 265 pound Olympic shot-putter. I didn't use her as an example because shot-putting is not a contact sport. But it's ignorant to deny ciswoman can potentially have that body structure.

And even were that not the case, why the avoidance in answering the question?

Huh. Well, alright. I did specify "a woman in the sport", as in, rugby specifically. And in that sport, I can't find any examples of women over like 190lbs. That being said, I haven't looked very far either.

And yeah, I do think a woman with that sort of physique would be allowed.

 

[MikeBison]

Man, it must be tough making these kinds of decisions. I tend to come down on the side of them making the right one ultimately. But you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

As far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong, throughout the process they shower her the due respect and have misgendered her or anything. So accusations of transphobia based on the decision do nothing to help the cause.

 

[Platy]

And yeah, I do think a woman with that sort of physique would be allowed.

And that is all you need to hear about people thinking about the well being of cis people

 

[Heckler456]

And that is all you need to hear about people thinking about the well being of cis people

What's your point?

 

[seanoff]

The NZ rugby girl would need to lose 40 - 45 kgs to play in the AFLW and spend a yr or more working on her cardio fitness.

But it’s unlikely she’d have anything like the speed, strength and power that Hannah retains from her original gender.

This is a difficult decision but i cant see that they have treated her with disrespect and not taken due care with the decision.

 

[Platy]

What's your point?

That a woman with that sort of physique is not being allowed

Also, for those who say testosterone give permanent changes, I just want to remind you that you should be wishing that every athlete needs to have dopping tests ever few months on their formative years or else they might have an unfair advantage due to a testosterone spike in their teenage years

 

[Fliesen]

And that is all you need to hear about people thinking about the well being of cis people

Similarly, I would presume that a cisgender woman who supplied her body with the same amount of testosterone that a pre-transition transwoman had been producing naturally would be disqualified.

It's simply not that easy. The rules and regulations of sports are inherently discriminatory and ableist - you can't just make these broad and absolute statements and pretend they're the solution.

 

[Laughing Banana]

And that is all you need to hear about people thinking about the well being of cis people

I honestly think you're seeing intent when there is none.

 

[KonradLaw]

this will always be a trick question, as long as there's two category, there always gonna be a problem somewhere, and that has nothing to do with bigotry or misoginy

the only real solution that would be "fair" would be to make every sports mixed, male, female, trans and so on all in the same teams... or mabye add the mixed sport to the rest as a third category

of course it will never happen, i know why, but still, it would be nice to watch mixed sports

In theory it would be nice. In reality it would bassicaly mean close to no women in vast majority of professional sports.

 

[the_darkness]

I can see both sides here but interesting to me that the AFL was actively promoting the game this way last year.

The guy on the left outweighs the guy on the right by 66kg or 145lbs.

 

[Veitsev]

That a woman with that sort of physique is not being allowed

Also, for those who say testosterone give permanent changes, I just want to remind you that you should be wishing that every athlete needs to have dopping tests ever few months on their formative years or else they might have an unfair advantage due to a testosterone spike in their teenage years

I have no idea why you think this is relevant.

 

[KonradLaw]

I can see both sides here but interesting to me that the AFL was actively promoting the game this way last year.

The guy on the left outweighs the guy on the right by 66kg or 145lbs.

I know they had to fit them into one picture, but lol..that's one screwed up photoshop. A half a meter difference between the first and last guy doesn't translate to the smaller dude being just a head shorter

 

[appaws]

This is a tough area...I feel bad for her. She wants to compete and she can't, which really sucks.

But we have to balance these decisions with the reality of what it takes to have sports for women and girls who want to play sports. For competitive and safety reasons, there are just many sports that women cannot play with men. And I believe that equity demands that we provide sex-segregated sports opportunities for women and girls.

 

[llien]

Look to people from New Zealand/Tonga/Samoa.

The NZ rugby team for example have Aotearoa Mata'u who is listed as over 6ft and 133kg.

Interesting. She's massive even by men rugby standards (most players are around 100kg, the biggest I recall top at 120kg), her height is just average or slightly below average (by the same standards). Still, muscle mass comparison would reveal big disadvantages, I think..

Basically, had that not been the case, we'd see it on Olympics. There isn't a single athletics related Olympic or world record, where men are not ahead. When there is no such advantage, mixed competitions are allowed (e.g. shooting)

I know they had to fit them into one picture, but lol..that's one screwed up photoshop. A half a meter difference between the first and last guy doesn't translate to the smaller dude being just a head shorter

It is 43cm and it doesn't look fake to me.

 

[hendersonhank]

but i'm sure it would be cool to see men vs women in sports like tennis for exemple

It would be interesting for the novelty the first couple times, then it would be boring. The best women cannot compete with men in the top 200.

 

[the_darkness]

I know they had to fit them into one picture, but lol..that's one screwed up photoshop. A half a meter difference between the first and last guy doesn't translate to the smaller dude being just a head shorter

Haha yeah this is the 2 of them in "real life"

 

[Diprosalic]

It would be interesting for the novelty the first couple times, then it would be boring. The best women cannot compete with men in the top 200.

you can add two 0s to that number.

 

[RangerX]

Yeah they absolutely made the right decision here for the safety of the competitors.

 

[toddhunter]

Interesting. She's massive even by men rugby standards (most players are around 100kg, the biggest I recall top at 120kg), her height is just average or slightly below average (by the same standards). Still, muscle mass comparison would reveal big disadvantages, I think..

Shakira Baker is another example 1.70m and 92KG. Not quite as tall but still over 200lbs in old world speak. Shakira plays Rugby Sevens for NZ, which I'd rate as a much harder and faster game to play physically than AFL.

The difference is in Rugby (or Men's AFL) is if you are a small player you are trained to tackle bigger players somewhat safely. You are also trained to stay the fuck away from the middle of the field if you are a small winger.

So even today there are very large girls out there and as Woman's sport grows (still in it's infancy to a large extent), they will only get bigger and stronger just like the men's games. This to me puts Hannah ahead of the curve, not necessarily apart from it and I feel the AFL will need to plan for this at some stage.

 

[fisheyes]

Huh. Well, alright. I did specify "a woman in the sport", as in, rugby specifically. And in that sport, I can't find any examples of women over like 190lbs. That being said, I haven't looked very far either.

And yeah, I do think a woman with that sort of physique would be allowed.

Just for the record, AFL / AFLW is Australian Rules Football, a completely different sport to Rugby. A typical AFL player is smaller than a Rugby player.

The largest Rugby (Union) Men's player, as of the 2015 World Cup, 198cm tall and weighs 145kg, the biggest AFL Men's player is 211cm but "only" weighs 118kg. .

The average men's AFL player (this is from 2009, but wouldn't have changed drastically) is actually only 188cm and 87kg.

----

AFLW only started as a competition this year (there has been women's Aussie Rules state league competitions for years but this is the first year of the highest level), and as far as I can tell the AFL doesn't keep an official record of the player's weights, but does keep heights, and, for example, the team who won the first year's competition, the Adelaide Crows, Don't have 1 player taller than the 'average' height in the Men's league. A quick scan through every team's list shows maybe a half dozen players max who are over that 188cm Men's average height. Some are as much as 30cm shorter than that.

You can, by simply watching the sport, clearly see the AFLW players are much smaller, height and weight wise, then their men's counterparts. I managed to find the weight of Daisy Pearce, who is regarded as the best Women's Aussie Rules player there is, and she weighs 70kg. Now, the position she players isn't one for the largest player in the team, but again, we are talking 18kg smaller than the average men's player.



Hannah, is about bang on that average men's height, but weighs significantly more. Her weight would be on the larger scale even in the men's league, putting her in the same sort of weight as key forwards such as Lance Franklin, who weighs 106kg, but is 11cm taller. So even in the men's league she would be a extremely solidly built / heavy player, and well above average for weight when compared to height.

In the women's competition she would be well and truly bigger than anyone else.

The AFL have made the right decision for the fairness of the competition / to the other players here. It sucks for Hannah, but its far from Transphobia.

 

[Spuck-uk]

The only way a female athlete will achieve those stats is with steroids.

Frankie Adams and Gwendoline Christie would disagree.

 

[shnurgleton]

It’s mindblowing how many people here still don’t understand the distinction between sex and gender. I always considered the men’s/women’s divide in sports to be based on sex, not gender, because of differing physiological characteristics. It doesn’t seem plausible that gender identity would have any effect on someone’s capability in sports

 

[Platy]

Haha yeah this is the 2 of them in "real life"

they absolutely not made the right decision for the safety of this participant on this contact sport

It's mindblowing how many people here still don't understand the distinction between sex and gender. I always considered the men's/women's divide in sports to be based on sex, not gender, because of differing physiological characteristics. It doesn't seem plausible that gender identity would have any effect on someone's capability in sports

How does that differences happen, at what age and how do you differentiate a person that started hormone therapy before or after those changes ?