Support NeoGAF

[cyberheater]

If Xbox One doesn't have HUMA then how does the CPU and GPU share the same memory pool. If not HUMA then surely a veriation if it.

 

[mangochutney]

hUMA? Isn't that what Johnny Bravo says to the fine ladies of the world?

Anyway, nice of AMD to plop on MS like that.

 

[DragonSworne]

If Xbox One doesn't have HUMA then how does the CPU and GPU share the same memory pool. If not HUMA then surely a veriation if it.

Unified, not uniform.

 

[wildfire]

I'm a hardware newbie but this is one of the reasons that makes me want to wait before upgrading my PC. I am intrigued by both AMD's APU's and the deals they've worked with software companies (both gaming and non).

And this post exemplifies why the AMD rep pulled a scummy move. They are throwing under the bus a large customer in order to trick the more budget minded PC consumers into believing the first couple iterations of their APUs will compete with discrete video cards and CPUs not relying on huma.

If you want a gaming rig for the next year and most likely 2 years an APU isn't going to have enough performance to make it a worthwhile purchase.

Its advantages can leveraged better by consoles because there is drastically less overhead.

Don't worry guys, the Xbox has cloud processing that will make AI 600% better

But in all seriousness, I don't think it will matter much. Most games will look and feel very similar on both platforms and only a handful or two of titles will be able to take full advantage of whatever slight differences there are.

In a few ways the Playstation 3 was a technically superior console. Did that get them anywhere? Besides the Uncharteds, Last of Us, Killzone... were there really that many games that took full advantage of the hardware?

It's not irrelevant to understand how consoles work and their development benefits, if you are a developer, but for consumers it won't matter much. All that will matter is what games end up in the shelves and how good of a product the company provides.

If there are fewer frame rate drops and better textures on the PS4 that is a big deal.

 

[Manmademan]

If Xbox One doesn't have HUMA then how does the CPU and GPU share the same memory pool. If not HUMA then surely a veriation if it.

they "sort of" do. both the CPU and GPU can access the main RAM. apparently only the GPU can access the ESRAM. the ESRAM is what the xbone is using to get around the very low bandwidth issues of the DDR3.

this is sort of making my head explode trying to get a handle on it, but there's clearly an additional layer of complexity in the xbone design that isn't present in the ps4, or any of the other upcoming AMD platforms planning on using hUMA.

 

[joshcryer]

So, my guess is that Sony paid AMD to integrate this feature into PS4 while Microsoft didn't.

Cerney said they were going to go the ESRAM route (making PS4/X1 basically hardware equivalent), for hardware production reasons. But the #1 request from developers was a unified memory space. It was the single most requested thing about the hardware.

AMD just so happened to be working on hUMA and so PS4 has hUMA or a hUMA-subset (Cerney never confirmed that part).

I think it's more likely that Microsoft just didn't get developer input on the hardware. Oh and Sony got lucky that they got a GDDR5 vendor that could deliver a crapload of RAM in time. If the supply chain didn't fall in place Sony would've been screwed.

 

[Perkel]

These are launch games, I suspect the differences will begin to become more noticeable around this time next year

Dream on. MS is trying hard to confuse people that there isn't that much difference.

If spec are true then we will see difference between multiplatform games day1 when first DF article will land and this difference will only grow with time be it better effects or better framerate. Using additional power for framerate is completely easy and you don't need to do anything.

MS execs do tell non stop 1080p etc. showing their games that are super clean and PS4 which is way faster than X is struggling with IQ in their early builds on far more finished SDK.

IMO i think they are doing what GT5 did with its "1080p" meaning they will get 1080p vertically but they will use various resolutions horizontally like GT5 did (1280x1080).

In a few ways the Playstation 3 was a technically superior console. Did that get them anywhere? Besides the Uncharteds, Last of Us, Killzone... were there really that many games that took full advantage of the hardware?

This is not same situation. PS3 and Xbox360 had different hardware completely. Xbox and PS4 is generally like PC with just different GPU in each. One GPU is worse other one is better. There isn't any wish wash or magic developers needs to use to achieve better effects on PS4. They just need to do same things and power of hardware will just make their game run better. With additional framerate they can do many things like improving effects or just keep it as it is with better frame rate.

For comparison PS3 devs needed to work hard to get most of PS3.

I think it's more likely that Microsoft just didn't get developer input on the hardware. Oh and Sony got lucky that they got a GDDR5 vendor that could deliver a crapload of RAM in time. If the supply chain didn't fall in place Sony would've been screwed.

4 GB wouldn't be a lot and 3,5GB for games would look small but imo it would be still better than 8 GB of shitty DDR3. Bandwidth is much more important than ton of RAM if opposite would be true then we would have on PCs DDR3 in our GPUs. MS 8GB also wasn't because they wanted best looking games they wanted it because they needed crap ton of ram for their apps running in background (which is main point of their strategy)

 

[Captain Tuttle]

All of this mumbo jumbo has me leaning back to Sony. MS was beginning to pull me back.

 

[jet1911]

If it's the case it's certainly not showing right now.

 

[RibbedHero]

AMD really pimping out hUMA and their APUs. We'll see how they stack up, but AMD are notorious for overselling and underdelivering.

 

[Toski]

I didn't say otherwise; I said that the gap is not close to Xbox vs Dreamcast.

To put my point another way, the Xbox had around 7 GFLOPS of computing power, the Dreamcast 1.5 GFLOPS. If you think that hUMA will turn the 50% computational improvement of the PS4 over the Xbone into a ~450% improvement, you're probably buying into the same 'secret sauce' wet dreams that some of our Xbox system warriors seem to believe in.

And again; look at the games. Look at Driveclub vs Forza 5. Driveclub clearly looks better even at a casual glance but the gap is not huge. As a reminder, even of the gap between Xbox and PS2, watch this, then tell me: is the gap between Driveclub and Forza this large? Does the gap between Driveclub and Forza give us good reason to believe the gap will ever be this large? I think the answer has to be a pretty well unqualified 'no'.

While diminishing returns are in play, the PS4 having both raw and architectural advantages along with a cheaper price will come into play when people decide which console has the better multi-plats. The 360 owes much of its success to having the superior versions of games through much of the generation. If hUMA extends this advantage and/or negates any of the X1's quirks, this is bad news for MS.

 

[Vashetti]

 

[Nukemttg]

First GDDR5, now hUMA. Modern times bits and blast processing.

And Mode 7. Never forget Mode 7!

 

[ElTorro]

Can someone of TechGAF explain what is the true advantage of this technology?

what is the difference between hUMA and normal Unified memory? and how this impact in PS4 and X1 architecture?

I added a quote from the extensive article at ArsTechnica to the OP.

http://arstechnica.com/information-...orm-memory-access-coming-this-year-in-kaveri/

Even with the integration of GPUs and CPUs into the same chip, GPGPU is quite awkward for software developers. The CPU and GPU have their own pools of memory. Physically, these might use the same chips on the motherboard (as most integrated GPUs carve off a portion of system memory for their own purposes). From a software perspective, however, these are completely separate.

This means that whenever a CPU program wants to do some computation on the GPU, it has to copy all the data from the CPU's memory into the GPU's memory. When the GPU computation is finished, all the data has to be copied back. This need to copy back and forth wastes time and makes it difficult to mix and match code that runs on the CPU and code that runs on the GPU.

The need to copy data also means that the GPU can't use the same data structures that the CPU is using. While the exact terminology varies from programming language to programming language, CPU data structures make extensive use of pointers: essentially, memory addresses that refer (or, indeed, point) to other pieces of data. These structures can't simply be copied into GPU memory, because CPU pointers refer to locations in CPU memory. Since GPU memory is separate, these locations would be all wrong when copied.

hUMA is the way AMD proposes to solve this problem. With hUMA, the CPU and GPU share a single memory space. The GPU can directly access CPU memory addresses, allowing it to both read and write data that the CPU is also reading and writing.

hUMA is a cache coherent system, meaning that the CPU and GPU will always see a consistent view of data in memory. If one processor makes a change then the other processor will see that changed data, even if the old value was being cached.

 

[Bailers]

They don't care. They said so themselves they purposesly didn't target the highest performance

Gotta wonder then what they did target. That money hat isn't endless. What's their plan for 2-3 years out when specs have progressed?

 

[PJV3]

When I get the PS4 will I be able to get a sense of Huma?

 

[hardvibes]

 

[phosphor112]

"I told you so"

Also, W!cked has some great finds...

 

[Soul Destroyer]

AMD really pimping out hUMA and their APUs. We'll see how they stack up, but AMD are notorious for overselling and underdelivering.

So are Nvidia.

 

[JaseC]

That's what I'm thinking. And on top of that, wasn't the PS3 more powerful than the 360? But most multi platform games were developed on the 360 and ported to PS3, right? So at the end of the day rarely did a PS3 multi platform game look better than the 360 version. In fact, a lot of times I believe the 360 version looked better!!

Well, the situation with the PS4 and X1 is somewhat different. The PS3 has more grunt than its Microsoft counterpart thanks to its CPU, which picked up the slack left by the crippled RSX GPU, however the esoteric design of the former saw many developers take years to even approach parity with the X360, let alone develop a PS3 build that was superior; this time around, however, the architecture of the CPU and GPU are identical between both platforms and the PS4 in particular has the better memory setup.

 

[uncharted86]

Digital Foundry articles will be interesting, they have been dismissed by some of late on here, bias and so forth. Lets see the response to their verdicts this coming gen.

They don't even have to bother making any face-offs if this is true.

 

[strata8]

They don't even have to bother making any face-offs if this is true.

Too bad hUMA is not going to affect how games look. At all.

 

[jaosobno]

Too bad hUMA is not going to affect how games look. At all.

Elaborate, please.

 

[lighthatblinds15]

developers have stated that they are gettng better performace wiether thatmeans better resolution or better frame rate. the reason gams look the sam is because of the developers dont want to have a better copy on one console. we will see the difference in sony first party games. SSM + ND i bet thise games will make most pc gamers jealous.

 

[Valentus]

Can someone of TechGAF explain what is the true advantage of this technology?

what is the difference between hUMA and normal Unified memory? and how this impact in PS4 and X1 architecture?

 

[NorthernAvengeR]

"Next gen doesn't start until we say it does."

Dark Sorcerer level graphics for all future PS4 games confirmed.

Sony Santa Monica and Naughty God's unnanounced games more real than life itself. Eyeballs implode worldwide.

 

[joshcryer]

AMD really pimping out hUMA and their APUs. We'll see how they stack up, but AMD are notorious for overselling and underdelivering.

It hinges on developers using GPUs for compute and basically considering (relying upon) GPU stream processors as part of the combined architecture (ie, like having SSE in x86). Fortunately for AMD if PS4 sells well there will be a lot of code floating around out there in developers hands (and lots of research papers) that show the utility of a unified architecture.

I think it's the right way to go and it will be the first fundamental change of PC architecture since we went from 32 bit to 64 bit.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Well, the situation with the PS4 and X1 is somewhat different. The PS3 has more grunt than its Microsoft counterpart thanks to its CPU, which picked up the slack left by the crippled RSX GPU, however the esoteric design of the former saw many developers take years to even approach parity with the X360, let alone develop a PS3 build that was superior; this time around, however, the architecture of the CPU and GPU are identical and the PS4 has the better memory setup.

But wouldn't it make sense for developers to develop games for the weaker hardware? If the architectures are identical it should be easy to port games, right? So I would imagine they would develop for the xbone and port. So for third party games at least I don't imagine seeing significant improvements on the ps4 version. With development costs the way they are I can't see developers spending significantly more time on the ps4 version to improve visuals.

 

[twobear]

While diminishing returns are in play, the PS4 having both raw and architectural advantages along with a cheaper price will come into play when people decide which console has the better multi-plats. The 360 owes much of its success to having the superior versions of games through much of the generation. If hUMA extends this advantage and/or negates any of the X1's quirks, this is bad news for MS.

You're saying these things as though I disagree with them...I was replying specifically to the comment that the gap will be akin to Xbox vs Dreamcast.

 

[strata8]

Elaborate, please.

There's nothing in the hUMA outlines I've seen that indicates any sort of 3D performance increase. It's all to do with making GPGPU calculations easier.

 

[ElTorro]

Can someone of TechGAF explain what is the true advantage of this technology?

what is the difference between hUMA and normal Unified memory? and how this impact in PS4 and X1 architecture?

I added the description from ArsTechnica to the OP. It's pretty solid. I can't judge, however, which parts of a game engine or a rendering pipeline would benefit the most. The exchange of rendering instructions built by the CPU to the GPU should benefit greatly in any case.

 

[bj00rn_]

THis is how AMD explains huma.

"Huma combo processors no longer distinguish between the CPU and GPU memory areas"

I have no clue, so for me in my simple mind, I don't see what changed from the unified memory perspective. Isn't this how it always was meant to be for both consoles?

 

[ChiliManiac]

GDDR5 only makes a small difference in latency, doubt it'll affect gameplay that much. Maybe right out of the gate but in the long run the systems will pretty much have the same performance on games. Not gona argue for either one here though remember all those graphics compraisons between the 360 and the PS3 and how everybody made it a huge deal but when it came down to it didn't really make a difference? I mean, TLOU looks amazing as does Halo 4.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Don't worry, the infinite power of the cloud will ensure the Xbox one outperforms the PSfaux in the end.

 

[DragonSworne]

I added a quote from the extensive article at ArsTechnica to the OP.

http://arstechnica.com/information-...orm-memory-access-coming-this-year-in-kaveri/

This. Is huge. Anyone with a computer science background can tell you about the inefficiency of passing copies of data instead of pointers to functions. Having to pass by copy between GPU and CPU seems like a lot of wasted power.

 

[uncharted86]

"Next gen doesn't start until we say it does."

Dark Sorcerer level graphics for all future PS4 games confirmed.

Sony Santa Monica and Naughty God's unnanounced games more real than life itself. Eyeballs implode worldwide.

I smell a little hyperbole in this post.

 

[Manmademan]

Well, the situation with the PS4 and X1 is somewhat different. The PS3 has more grunt than its Microsoft counterpart thanks to its CPU, which picked up the slack left by the crippled RSX GPU, however the esoteric design of the former saw many developers take years to even approach parity with the X360, let alone develop a PS3 build that was superior; this time around, however, the architecture of the CPU and GPU are identical and the PS4 has the better memory setup.

correct.

keep in mind also that the ps4 had a weaker GPU paired with a MUCH more powerful cpu, and the 360 had a more powerful GPU paired with a weaker CPU. The 360 also had unified memory where the ps3 did not. It took a lot of time for ps3 devs to learn to use to cell to compensate for the shortcomings of the GPU, and to learn to use the (faster) ram allocated to the GPU efficiently.

all those hurdles are gone. the architecture is the same, so any tricks learned for the xbone will apply to the ps4, the ps4 has superior memory allocation thanks to hUMA, superior memory quantity (less is reportedly being used for the OS), superior memory bandwidth, a more powerful GPU and is the easier of the two to program for.

there is no realistic situation where a multiplatform is going to perform better on the xbone outside of paid exclusivity- i.e. ps4 just lacking DLC. simply isn't possible.

 

[Soul Destroyer]

But wouldn't it make sense for developers to develop games for the weaker hardware? If the architectures are identical it should be easy to port games, right? So I would imagine they would develop for the xbone and port. So for third party games at least I don't imagine seeing significant improvements on the ps4 version. With development costs the way they are I can't see developers spending significantly more time on the ps4 version to improve visuals.

Nope the opposite.

IIRC Most developers are using PC's as lead platforms this gen due to architectural parity between all 3 platforms.

 

[Jonboy]

I sense a 20-page thread incoming.

 

[dab0ne]

40 x HumA

infinite hUMA.

 

[KAL2006]

GDDR5 > DDR3
More GPU flops > Less GPU flops
More CUs > Less CUs
HuMa > Cloud

Sony wins again, Xbox One is last gen, PS4 is next gen confirmed

 

[JaseC]

But wouldn't it make sense for developers to develop games for the weaker hardware? If the architectures are identical it should be easy to port games, right? So I would imagine they would develop for the xbone and port. So for third party games at least I don't imagine seeing significant improvements on the ps4 version. With development costs the way they are I can't see developers spending significantly more time on the ps4 version to improve visuals.

It's better to start at the top and scale down than it is to start at the bottom and scale up, because once you have your lead platform -- the platform that has the most to offer -- it's simply a matter of reducing the likes of internal rendering resolution, texture resolution, particle effects, etc. to accommodate the weaker hardware. Doing things the other way around cripples the higher-end platform/s needlessly with no practical benefit to the developer.

 

[spwolf]

These consoles use Jaguar CPUs and GCN GPUs. Jaguar + GCN APUs (Temash, Kabini, Kyoto) don't have hUMA.

HUMA is a feature that will debut on PC in 2014 (Kaveri). So, my guess is that Sony paid AMD to integrate this feature into PS4 while Microsoft didn't.

$$$ its all about cashhh

 

[Bailers]

Can someone of TechGAF explain what is the true advantage of this technology?

what is the difference between hUMA and normal Unified memory? and how this impact in PS4 and X1 architecture?

Not at all techie interpretation here, but he's my attempt. The CPU can directly share instructions and calculations with the GPU. Normally those need a copy in the GPU. So in addition to saving the time of making a copy, the GPU has open space to do other things. Up to the limit of the memory which us shared across both processors.
Tech people, does that sounds kinda right?

 

[Myshkin]

And again; look at the games. Look at Driveclub vs Forza 5. Driveclub clearly looks better even at a casual glance but the gap is not huge.

We're not going to know from these launch titles, because most of them are being rushed. Also, weird example, because at E3 DriveClub < Forza 5 = GT6.

 

[RetroStu]

Whatever, we will see when the machines launch and we actually get our hands on the games. If there are any major differences (like this article suggests) then i will be very suprised.

 

[Manmademan]

But wouldn't it make sense for developers to develop games for the weaker hardware? If the architectures are identical it should be easy to port games, right? So I would imagine they would develop for the xbone and port. So for third party games at least I don't imagine seeing significant improvements on the ps4 version. With development costs the way they are I can't see developers spending significantly more time on the ps4 version to improve visuals.

its far simpler to develop for the superior platform and port DOWN, than it is to develop for a weaker platform and port UP.

Also, given the launch prices and timeframes, it is very likely the ps4 will have greater marketshare this time around vs. the xbox- leaving even less reason to make the xbone lead platform than before.

 

[joshcryer]

There's nothing in the hUMA outlines I've seen that indicates any sort of 3D performance increase. It's all to do with making GPGPU calculations easier.

Thus allowing certain GPGPU calculations to happen in the middle of a frame while the GPU is basically idling. No need to flush the cache. It can have a graphical effect but it is more likely to be physical, physics, possibly AI, stuff like that.

On PS4 the CPU and GPU can access any part of the memory space, anything that is cached is "seen" by both.

On X1 the CPU must allot what space the GPU gets to "see." If the GPU needs some data the CPU must then copy it into GPU's alloted space, and if the GPU does a GPGPU calculation, it must copy it back out. It's not necessarily a true copy though because you can use pointers for this (at least for textures and other object data, not sure about GPGPU calculations, I think not), but it is an extra operation and care must be taken to do it right.

 

[cyberheater]

The CPU can directly share instructions and calculations with the GPU.

Absolute bollocks.

 

[uncharted86]

We're not going to know from these launch titles, because most of them are being rushed. Also, weird example, because at E3 DriveClub < Forza 5 = GT6.

But the new Gamescom build of DriveClub looks much better than the E3 build. And it's still only deemed as an alpha build.