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Anonymous Indie Devs speak out on the growing pains of Switch eShop Curation

cw_sasuke

If all DLC came tied to $13 figurines, I'd consider all DLC to be free
What a terrible idea. A new system needs as many games as possible to increase its value proposition.
That's every console launch in history.... Seems like some people don't even know what console or a walled ecosystem stands for. You think every garage dev that wanted his game out on PS4/XBO during the launch week... Was able to do that?

I don't understand why people are being so naive about this.
 

OmegaFax

Member
https://developer.nintendo.com/ paints the picture on the wall. You have a discontinued system and a seasonal sale item (at least in the US) as the two main platforms for Nintendo's open developer initiative. It seemed obvious that there was a more formal, declared process to becoming a Switch developer.

Nothing on Switch. There's always been talk about the development hardware being only about $200 more than a retail unit. Regardless, relatively inexpensive.

As a customer, it looks like Nintendo is really taking a gated approach to what they want to see on their eShop and in their retail shelf space??

There aren't a ton of exclusives for the Switch. I mean, Shovel Knight, Blaster Master Zero, Mario Kart 8, Splatoon, Breath of the Wild, I Am Setsuna, Disgaea 5, Dragon Quest Heroes 1/2, Binding of Isaac, Puyo Puyo Tetris, and a few others can either be played on another Nintendo system or a competing platform in some form. Yes, I know Splatoon 2 is a sequel and MK8 is a "Deluxe" version but it's a similar experience on Wii U.

Skyrim is another port that we saw last October that's been MIA since. Hell, Minecraft and a bunch of other games come off the top of my head, too. There's no shortage of software that is available on another platform in some form.

The NeoGeo games are actually surprisingly coming out in droves and I think some are Switch-first, other systems later.

The only major unique games for Switch so far have been Snipperclips, ARMs, and Super Mario Odyssey. Least those are the ones that immediately come to mind. Fire Emblem Warriors is a 3DS/Switch title ... but not only on Switch. Maybe a few unannounced titles.

I guess in hindsight, Nintendo's restraint on saying anything about Virtual Console is warranted.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that the "no port" policy seems really weak.
 
That first page Holy crap. It's like no one reads anything and just wants to start the shit posts. No system is prefect but to say Nintendo hasn't changed.... We just got a retail release of a game they didn't allow like 5 years ago on the eshop. Plus all the other good stories we have heard.

Don't get me wrong there is most likely problems that should be fixed like imo one of these devs is the mutant mudds guy. And it sucks what has happened to him in this. But to say they never changed is just stupid people.
 

Nickle

Cool Facts: Game of War has been a hit since July 2013
If there are too many good games then you won't have time to appreciate the games that you do have.
 

Instro

Member
Not shocking that they have gone backwards since Dan Adelman left. On that note lol at all the people bitching at him for calling them douches, he had to apologize. If anyone knows whats up with Nintendo it's him.
 

Atheerios

Member
Controllers, screen calibration, dock.

Controllers feel great. Pro Controller is one of the best ever. Joy-con also great. Screen is sharp and vivid, and it's pretty common nowadays to find devices with some units having color variations (even the recent Galaxy S8, that's how things are), and there are no proven problems with the dock.

You should really stop trying to troll in every Switch thread.
 

Instro

Member
Reggie was hired about that same time.

coincidence? i think not.

they need to completely restructure NoA and that involves new staff. the first one to go should be the president since he's let all this clusterfuck happen.

Iwata is to blame for NoA's issues, he reorganized it to be a shitshow back in the day.
 
Not shocking that they have gone backwards since Dan Adelman left. On that note lol at all the people bitching at him for calling them douches, he had to apologize. If anyone knows whats up with Nintendo it's him.

Look at the announced indie list for the switch, seems to me they've gone massively forward since he left
 

Plum

Member
Not shocking that they have gone backwards since Dan Adelman left. On that note lol at all the people bitching at him for calling them douches, he had to apologize. If anyone knows whats up with Nintendo it's him.

Source on the bolded?

Though really, even if its true, PR is always a thing in business and shouldn't be ignored because "he/she knows what's up"
 

I Wanna Be The Guy

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Controllers, screen calibration, dock.
Best controls on any handheld device and even when playing in tv mode the joycons feel great, plus the pro controller is arguably the best traditional gaming controller out there right now. Not sure what you mean by screen calibration. The dock is all it needs to be. Very easy to slide the system in and out. It's kinda cheap feeling but it serves its purpose well.
 
The design of the eshop looks nice. It's clean, modern.

The actual functionality doesn't seem to be there though. It's a bit confusing as a consumer to navigate it, and curating it...well maybe that will be fixed in the future.

I really like the "news" things that get sent out, and I think that's where Nintendo needs to marry the eshop with it.
 
Look at the announced indie list for the switch, seems to me they've gone massively forward since he left

People seem to see what they want to. These same as posters are noticeably absent in threads where indies praise their experience with the Switch. It's one thing to recognize devs have a range of experiences, some positive, some frustrating, but some posts here sound like the second group is the overwhelming majority. It's embarrassing reading nintendoomed over this article
 

I Wanna Be The Guy

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
The fact it doesn't save your credit card info is the most mind boggling thing about the eshop. Like.....what? I have to type it in every time I buy something? Seriously Nintendo? They're hurting impulse buys with that.
 

Sami+

Member
Never change Nintendo. Keep sticking that knife in your leg.

It can hardly be called growing pains when their storefront on the Wii U is better.

Why as a developer would want one to work with Nintendo when at the end of the day, they really don't give a shit about anything except their own?

I honestly have no idea why people are so fast to overlook shit like this
 
The writing on the wall for this has been going for ages, but it's still sad to see it compiled like this. Curation doesn't mean being asses to your developers, and I for one would rather have no curation than the draconian assholery that Nintendo is evidently doing now. It's not fair to developers and it's not helpful for consumers.
 

zelas

Member
Nintendo is probably controlling the initial period of games to avoid getting labeled as a 'port machine' and will loosen up as time goes on. I don't see how anyone can say they treat indies like shit when they gave an entire direct dedicated to them.

That's it? So nothing else they've done/haven't done can be held against them? They can't be accused of treating some like shit because of one direct featuring a fraction of devs? Taking steps in some areas doesn't mean they can't still have serious issues elsewhere.

If Nintendo finally is the modern company people think they are then they should have course corrected already. They have their previous experience with the eShop to learn from, DeNA on their side, and several other long successful storefronts as easy examples to follow. Some of these eShop woes should have never happened in the first place.

Also they've completely failed out the gate trying to avoid the port machine label.
 

Cerium

Member
I'm talking about Nintendo being not nearly as accommodating to developers as their contemporaries, not about the post.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1350702

Brjann Sigurgeirsson, CEO of Image & Form Games, who was on hand to demo SteamWorld Dig 2, commented, "We've been treated like royalty. And I would be saying that even if we weren't sitting in this room. We've always felt special [with Nintendo]. If you can make everyone feel special you're definitely doing something right. You're not treating an indie like something you can afford to miss out on - if you treat an indie studio like the way you'd treat a bigger studio or publisher that indie studio is going to love you and do stuff for you forever. And that's exactly the feeling we've had with Nintendo the whole time.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358833

He also spoke about how Nintendo's now playing a much more active role in recruiting third-party support: ”From what I've seen, just using Nintendo's publishing tools to set up everything from sales to getting the name right on the eShop, everything like that, it's much more streamlined and more modern. Even Nintendo's approach to how they get new indies to join the Switch family – nowadays, they see a good game at a convention and they just walk straight up to them and ask them to develop for Switch. From what I know, they've never done that before, so I think they are getting with the times. They know more than anyone what they did wrong with the Wii U, and 3DS in some cases as well, and they really want to fix that."
 

Hero

Member
They've literally said this is what they're doing

Was trying to be subtle for people.

They should be grateful if that happened when you look at the support for their last consoles since the N64.

Yeah, because third parties weren't releasing a shit ton of games on DS or Wii, right?

Yeah... It's pretty much what every platform holder does in the early period of a console cycle.

Limited resources as in dev kits means that Nintendo will try to focus on content that has a better shot at performing well. This is a standard business procedure.

A handful indies feeling entitled to better or more Nintendo support for their project doesn't change the fact that resources in man power and dev kits are limited right now. I mean look what already announced and shown via Nindie Direct for the system before the first console was sold. Now that the system is actually turning out to be a success the demand for dev kits might be even higher.

Doubt this will be an issue in a couple months.

Yup.

What a terrible idea. A new system needs as many games as possible to increase its value proposition.

Yeah, it sure did wonders for Wii U and Vita! Oh, wait....

That's it? So nothing else they've done/haven't done can be held against them? They can't be accused of treating some like shit because of one direct featuring a fraction of devs? Taking steps in some areas doesn't mean they can't still have serious issues elsewhere.

If Nintendo finally is the modern company people think they are then they should have course corrected already. They have their previous experience with the eShop to learn from, DeNA on their side, and several other long successful storefronts as easy examples to follow. Some of these eShop woes should have never happened in the first place.

Also they've completely failed out the gate trying to avoid the port machine label.

Not saying it can't be held against them, but we seem to have far more vocal indies praising Nintendo on the way they are handling their relationships, as opposed to two anonymous ones. I guess it's up to each person to decide what they feel holds more weight.
 

Plum

Member
Source is his twitter btw.

A link would be nice, but I searched and yes, he apologised. However, that still doesn't diminish the point that putting a notoriously "friendly" company against indie developers who aren't PR people is never going to help. Much like Nintendo's shitty YT policy (and most problems in this industry to be frank), not much will happen when the only prominent people fighting against it are those who are better at programming or entertaining than negotiating and business.
 
Nintendo makes great games and hardware but there are some key executives who needs to leave. I don't know if they are from america or japan but they need to improve their personal and give more chances to young people.

The "young guys" in their new direct are in their 40's.
 

kbohs

Member
They look at a game that's 20% complete and then they can't extrapolate what it will be like after an additional year or two of development.

I dunno, sounds good to me. Steam Early Access is the worst trend of the past few years in my opinion. If an indie dev shows up with a good game then it makes sense to work with them to release it on your system. If an indie dev shows up with a proof of concept it makes sense to not work with them to release it on your system, at least not yet.

Note the use of indie, if a large third party brings an early in development game (SMT V, Project Octopath Traveler, etc.) then there is some assumption that they will be "good for it". You will theoretically get a finished product of a certain quality, it is a more consistent bet for Nintendo.
 
Man, Dev 1 must be the shit since apparently he has one of the highest rated game on the system and yet nobody can even guess who the heck he is. I'm starting to think he was left out for a reason

Nintendo makes great games and hardware but there are some key executives who needs to leave. I don't know if they are from america or japan but they need to improve their personal and give more chances to young people.

The "young guys" in their new direct are in their 40's.

...do you think Sony and Microsoft are managed by a bunch of young people? If so, I have terrible news for you
 
What even is this thread...

You know you don't have to attack the character of everyone who doesn't Absolutely Love Nintendo Forever, right? You know you can have criticism of a company and hopefully spread that criticism so that they can be better in the future, right?
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Let's try to read the content behind the article trying to be as rational as possible (difficult on GAF these days, I know; especially for a Nintendo related thread), shall we?

*ahem*

I don't think it can be denied that Damon Baker has been doing a commendable job in the past few years to make the eShop a more welcoming place for developers: trying to court them, being receptive to their requests, giving to them the possibility to get different ratings with one specific process (the IARC certification), and being the first console hardware house to allow Humble Bundles are all commendable initiatives, that brought support especially to the Wii U eShop in spite of the historically poor hardware sales. And on the Switch we've seen a further evolution of his efforts, given how it's even easier to publish a game for all the different markets (one of the mos talked-about examples of advancements in the Switch era; but you can also see several recent articles on the matter from different outlets - among them, the one Cerium keeps quoting).

Also, I'll be honest, I'm not against the curator approach for the first eShop year / two years, in spite of being someone who would like to hear about the least amount of obstacles to publishing games on a platform as possible. No contradiction here, surprisingly enough: simply, I understand that their intent is to create a healthy, well-regarded digital storefront through the release of a good amount of (potentially) good / high quality products, as well as trying to address the potential discoverability issue from the get go, which is something that would be extremely difficult if the amount of releases was ridiculously high right from the first few months. Basically, not enough room to breathe for way too many deserving games. Considering how it's a temporary approach, I can perfectly comprehend the intents behind it.

However, it's also true that the stories in NintendoLife's article deal with several developers, even long-standing eShop partners, who have encountered important difficulties in approaching people to talk with due to partial mismanagement / not enough allocation of resources for the team. And this is NOT positive, even in presence of a curated approach: communication between companies and developers is important. Do you remember that Eurogamer article with the tale of an unnamed developer working on a Wii U launch game? That was a sign of a hardware vendor not ready for a major launch, which resulted in the developing environment suffering. Unfortunately, I can understand extremely small developers (even in the indie world) having to wait more than others to get dev-kits, it's the gradual distribuition and availability of dev kits, but here it seems that there could have been a bit too much stingyness in play, even for a curated approach. Recently, Damon Baker made it so devs on Twitter can DM him pitches for games on Switch, which is a potential more direct way to communicate with the company: not a recipe for unquestionable success, though given that we have both a positive outcome (Robert Zeboyd) and a negative one (Gualtica). But yes, there seems to be a biit more openess right now (we've had different recent announcements coming from devs who also announced they wee just certified as eShop devs), and I'm sure it'll keep on going. Hopefully, dev kits and communciation become as reasonably spread as possible.

Speaking of discoverability...yeah, I'm going to criticise the current eShop setup as well: it's not awful, I like how clean it is, but we've already heard stories of games disappearing from the "available content" cathegory because its tiles are limited (for now). Plus, there are no special cathegories right now - except for current charts, which can be useful as a discoverability tool as well, sure, but it's still not enough. I am absolutely sure the eShop's layout will keep on getting updates, but, as said earlier, I hope they act fast enough.
 

The Boat

Member
What even is this thread...

You know you don't have to attack the character of everyone who doesn't Absolutely Love Nintendo Forever, right? You know you can have criticism of a company and hopefully spread that criticism so that they can be better in the future, right?

post-33537-Jim-Carrey-Truman-Show-gif-wha-cIrC.gif
 

zelas

Member
Not saying it can't be held against them, but we seem to have far more vocal indies praising Nintendo on the way they are handling their relationships, as opposed to two anonymous ones. I guess it's up to each person to decide what they feel holds more weight.

Based on the article linked in OP, it seems to be more than just 2 anonymous devs complaining about dev kit costs and slow communication.

Beyond that its Nintendo alone who is responsible for the eShop's functionality, curating games there, and providing enough resources for their Publisher & Developer Relations department. They have taken steps backwards in some regards in those areas. I don't think its standard practice for a modern company to still have these issues after operating in these areas for so long, and certainly not just because they're releasing new hardware. And because of these still existing faults, I don't think it should be unreasonable for devs and consumers to have strong feelings when it comes to issues they've had multiple opportunities to iron out.
 

Cerium

Member
Based on the article linked in OP, it seems to be more than just 2 anonymous devs complaining about dev kit costs

There is plenty in the article to discuss without making shit up.

Switch dev kits cost $450, significantly less than any other modern system.

At the Game Creators Conference 2017 in Osaka, Japan, Nintendo announced that Switch development kits would only cost 50,000 yen, or roughly $450.

This comes as great news for independent game developers who have long had to deal with expensive up-front costs in developing games for consoles. ”It's a radical departure from their earlier exclusiveness that Nintendo is releasing their dev kits at such a low price," said Rami Ismail, co-founder of Vlambeer. To put things in perspective, a PlayStation 3 development kit ran for $20,000 at launch.
 

Hero

Member
Based on the article linked in OP, it seems to be more than just 2 anonymous devs complaining about dev kit costs and slow communication.

Beyond that its Nintendo alone who is responsible for the eShop's functionality, curating games there, and providing enough resources for their Publisher & Developer Relations department. They have taken steps backwards in some regards in those areas. I don't think its standard practice for a modern company to still have these issues after operating in these areas for so long, and certainly not just because they're releasing new hardware. And because of these still existing faults, I don't think it should be unreasonable for devs and consumers to have strong feelings when it comes to issues they've had multiple opportunities to iron out.

Sorry if I don't take an article with even a handful of anonymous indie developers to heart.

What actual steps do you think they went backwards with?
 
The posts directly above mine as well as the ones throughout the thread attempting to discredit the indies with bad experiences. They had bad experiences, so they must be not good! They and the article writers must be lying about their qualifications! And etc.
 

Cerium

Member
Sorry if I don't take an article with even a handful of anonymous indie developers to heart.

What actual steps do you think they went backwards with?

The article doesn't even say what he claims it says.

I don't think he even read it.
 

Hero

Member
The article doesn't even say what he claims it says.

I don't think he even read it.

The other thing to consider is that you can't please everyone.

No curation leads to an influx of extremely rushed/shitty games and now the eShop is flooded with crap, which makes it harder for any individual title to stick out and in turn will most likely frustrate consumers when they get burnt by a purchase of one of these games. Many developers have outwardly and publicly spoken about how hard it is to get attention on the App Store or even Steam these days. Unfortunately this stance means some indies will get left out initially.
 

LordRaptor

Member
And that criticism was somewhat deserved, but this is just taking a sledgehammer to the issue. The type of rampant indie shovelware that plagued the Wii U eShop is not hard to spot. Tell the Minecraft clones and repackaged Unity tutorials to take a hike, and give a devkit to the people making an honest attempt at a good game.

Thats what curation looks like.
Some titles get approved, other titles don't, and it is entirely at the whim of the curator.

"Just allow good games and stop bad games" is such a laughably simplistic assessment; either you're for a curated storefront, in which case you don't get to criticise what is and is not rejected, or you are against curation and don't get to criticise titles that appear.

You can't have your cake and eat it.
 

OmegaX

Member
The posts directly above mine as well as the ones throughout the thread attempting to discredit the indies with bad experiences. They had bad experiences, so they must be not good! They and the article writers must be lying about their qualifications! And etc.
Not trying to discredit them but when somebody says they are an indie dev that released several successful games on Nintendo platforms but they are being ignored on Switch, it makes you wonder:
- The 2 more prolific ones are Shin'en and Nicalis. Both had games on launch window, and Nicalis particularly has several games announced.
- WayForward has not released anything on Switch but they have teased Shantae.
- Jools Watsham (ex Renegade Kid, now Atooi) has 2 games announced for Switch after having initial problems getting a dev kit.

I honestly can't think of any other developer that fits the criteria unless they are seriously exaggerating their success. Anyway, it's unfortunate that not all developers can get their games on the eShop but that's to be expected if Nintendo is making an effort curating the store.
 
The eShop is simply not ready for a big catalogue of games. It's very much an MVP at the moment.

It's also fair to argue that this is a bit backward for a legendary tech company. The comments about needing more staff seem reasonable.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
The eShop is simply not ready for a big catalogue of games. It's very much an MVP at the moment.

It's also fair to argue that this is a bit backward for a legendary tech company. The comments about needing more staff seem reasonable.

Thing is, Nintendo is a toy company. Not a tech company. =P
 
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