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Anyone besides me feel like Captain America: Civil War is overrated and exploitative?
- Thread starter The Artisan
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They are doing well. Like all movie cycles, comics will fall away in time. While they're here we might enjoy them.
All that needs to be said. Haters can go eat some orange slices.
Not as good as The Winter Solider, but it's right behind it and is still my favorite movie of the year. I think it's appropriately rated.
I'm in the camp of thinking it was a proper Cap sequel while also being able to move forward the entire MCU timeline, which is an amazing feat considering all that it juggled, whereas I felt AoU came up short. I get the "Avengers 2.5" labeling, but just because it contained a lot of the same characters, it doesn't make it an Avengers movie. The story still revolved around Cap and Buck as the focal point.
Tony Stark's arc was amazing. You knew exactly why he went the route he did, and it was reasonable. He didn't become a "villian" just to be one. He was simply on opposing sides after dealing with a lot of consequences for his past actions. The fact that I can say both sides were right in their own way is a testament to the writing, which I think gets knocked around too much. And RDJ brought his A game. The emotions in the face alone without having to say a word...so good.
The action was top notch. I still knock the shaky cam usage early on, but after that first act, they ditched it thank gawd. That airport scene...look, I still prefer TWS action scenes all around, but that airport scene is probably the best CBM action scene put on film. I was gushing like a kid for the entire 17 minutes. 17 MINUTES! Then, you had a final battle with heavy emotional weight behind it.
They properly introduced the Black Panther and Spiderman. Every other character had a time to shine and was given justice with the time they had. From BP triple air kick to Spiderman catching Bucky's punch to Giantman. So many memorable moments.
I thought they had just the right amount of humor in there. Dr Strange is an example of Marvel overdoing the humor a tad bit, but the whole Falcon and Bucky grudge had me in stitches and I'd love to have a buddy flick with the two lol.
The "villian" was a nice change of pace. You sympathized with him because his family was a victim of the actions of the Avengers, ultimately. He didn't want to rule the world or destroy it. He simply wanted to take out the heroes that caused his family to get killed. I was pleasantly surprised when Zemo didn't activate the rest of the Winter Soldiers for our heroes to fight. That would've been too predictable. I'm excited to see what they do with him.
It's not a perfect movie, but it's still amazing. Anyways, my two cents.
I'm in the camp of thinking it was a proper Cap sequel while also being able to move forward the entire MCU timeline, which is an amazing feat considering all that it juggled, whereas I felt AoU came up short. I get the "Avengers 2.5" labeling, but just because it contained a lot of the same characters, it doesn't make it an Avengers movie. The story still revolved around Cap and Buck as the focal point.
Tony Stark's arc was amazing. You knew exactly why he went the route he did, and it was reasonable. He didn't become a "villian" just to be one. He was simply on opposing sides after dealing with a lot of consequences for his past actions. The fact that I can say both sides were right in their own way is a testament to the writing, which I think gets knocked around too much. And RDJ brought his A game. The emotions in the face alone without having to say a word...so good.
The action was top notch. I still knock the shaky cam usage early on, but after that first act, they ditched it thank gawd. That airport scene...look, I still prefer TWS action scenes all around, but that airport scene is probably the best CBM action scene put on film. I was gushing like a kid for the entire 17 minutes. 17 MINUTES! Then, you had a final battle with heavy emotional weight behind it.
They properly introduced the Black Panther and Spiderman. Every other character had a time to shine and was given justice with the time they had. From BP triple air kick to Spiderman catching Bucky's punch to Giantman. So many memorable moments.
I thought they had just the right amount of humor in there. Dr Strange is an example of Marvel overdoing the humor a tad bit, but the whole Falcon and Bucky grudge had me in stitches and I'd love to have a buddy flick with the two lol.
The "villian" was a nice change of pace. You sympathized with him because his family was a victim of the actions of the Avengers, ultimately. He didn't want to rule the world or destroy it. He simply wanted to take out the heroes that caused his family to get killed. I was pleasantly surprised when Zemo didn't activate the rest of the Winter Soldiers for our heroes to fight. That would've been too predictable. I'm excited to see what they do with him.
It's not a perfect movie, but it's still amazing. Anyways, my two cents.
Yeah, pretty much. Makes me feel like these films are asking too much of some of the audience? There's a fair bit of subtlety and single lines that satisfyingly explain away a lot of the coincidences in CA:CW, and ambiguities in the ending, and the result is "Zemo relied on luck and Cap and Tony are friends again so what's the point?" When no, neither is the case.
A movie this character dense would be unwatchable if they tried to cater to the "only half paying attention, but will criticize the shit out of it later anyway" crowd, so...
CrimsonSquall
Member
Avengers 2.5 was fucking hype bruh, stop hatin
After rewatching this, I'm definitely still Team Stark. Don't know how you could be anything else, even considering the misinformation. Captain America's argument is way too arrogant. It enforces his opinion over those of billions speaking via their nations representatives. Makes him the arbiter of "right" and I just can't get with that I guess. His approach only breeds more Zemo's ultimately.
You mean that thing that happens, especially when you idolize someone? Like how Scott idolizes Steve and how Peter idolizes Tony? Hmmm
CrimsonSquall
Member
I get maybe Ant-Man but why would u come at Spider-Man for this. He is a highly impressionable superhero teenager, of course he would do whatever his gahdamn idol wants him to do
I definitely prefer Winter Soldier. Civil War was all right, but I liked the action scenes and big reveal more in WS.
The airport scene was neat, but I can't get over what a drab setting it was. I get that they're trying to avoid collateral damage, but the emptiness of the setting took a lot of the excitement out of the fight for me.
The airport scene was neat, but I can't get over what a drab setting it was. I get that they're trying to avoid collateral damage, but the emptiness of the setting took a lot of the excitement out of the fight for me.
privitsan02
Member
I agree with this but I do feel like Civil War was bloated. Spider-Man felt shoe-horned in and wasn't very vital, Zemo is like the god of coincidences, Cap's decision making is absolutely terrible, recruiting Hawkeye after his retirement was dumb, (why would he risk his family?), Ant-Man becoming a fugitive again, (thought the whole point was to be able to see his daughter again?) and the movie just not being as good or smart as Winter Soldier.
It was alright but nothing special. The more time passes by, the more I find the movie to be really cheesy and I find myself less interested in what Marvel are planning to do in the future. Maybe it's just too many movies burnout and might just sit out from Marvel movies next year. Doctor Strange was a breath of fresh air however.
Best wishes.
SonofdonCD
Member
Not to single you out, since many people have complained about this since it came out, but we have to remember that Cap didn't recruit Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye and Ant-Man to specifically go after team Iron Man. His whole plan was to go to Siberia and take on Zemo and his five Winter Soldiers, so he recruited other superheroes that were unencumbered by the Sokovia Accords (i.e. those who didn't sign them/don't agree with them, sort of like another Avengers team). I think people forget that. He never explicitly said this, and maybe this is a failing of the film (though when Ant-Man is introduced to Cap, they do talk about why they recruited him; Cap - "Did they tell you what we were up against?" Ant-Man - "Something about some psycho assassins?", so that goes towards my point), but fighting Iron Man and his team was not part of the plan. That happened only because they found where they were.
And Spider-Man being shoehorned in? Yeah, so? He didn't detract from the film at all. Yeah, if they took him out the film could've still worked, but we'd lose such a great depiction of him. Besides, The film wouldn't have been better for him not being there. He added some much needed levity. But he also added the perspective from a hero not a part of the Avengers and how they feel about their responsibilities since attaining their powers and what they should do with them. I don't know that this Peter Parker would've signed them, even though his idol Tony Stark did. I think that's interesting and it makes sense that it was put into Civil War and not held off until Homecoming.
Sephiroth503
Member
It's ok, all of us sane and rational people are #TeamIronMan
Glass Rebel
Member
You and everyone else on #TeamStark seems to forget that Cap was ready to sign the Accords and most likely would have eventually if it wasn't for Zemo activating Bucky.
SolidChamp
Banned
To be fair, in spite of my general disdain and cynicism towards the MCU, I'm about to revisit Civil War tonight for the first time since seeing it in the theater. I'm curious to see how it holds up and I'd like to give it a fair shake, hoping I'll enjoy it more.
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
It's was ok but no where close to being as good as Winter Soldier.
The Winter Soldier is the best MCU movie to date.
But he didn't sign and should own it. It's not Zemo, or Bucky or Tony or anyone elses fault but his own in the end.
When Cap caught Bucky after Zemo activated him, why didn't Cap bring the unconscious Bucky to the UN (who didn't kill Bucky when they had him previously)?
When Cap learned of the Super Soldiers, he came up with weak excuses to not contact the team. I get not contacting Ross but not letting Widow or Tony in was weak. Either would have helped Cap behind Ross's back and both later did.
When Caps team was confronted at the airport, Cap could have informed Tonys side about the Super Soldiers, ask for a team up against the Super Soldiers, and offer to turn themselves in afterwards, if Cap really wanted to sign the accord. Instead, Cap didn't try to talk it out, he was just stubborn about doing his own thing.
Honestly, The Winter Soldier made me love Captain America and Civil War kinda made me hate him so I hate Civil War for that.
It was Tony that cut off the conversation at the airport. Steve was right in his assessment that Tony just wasn't interested in listening.
As for Ant Man's motivations don't forget that he inherited Pym's disdain for the Starks.
Glass Rebel
Member
Own how? He's a fugitive now. He's "owning" that.
Because Cap did not know how deep Zemo's plot ran. There was no telling what would happen to Bucky if he brought him back to the place.
Not really. First off, Cap and Tony parted on a sour note when Bucky was reactivated and there was no telling how he would take it. Second, Tony, Widow, Rhodey and Vision had already signed the accords at this point and they would have been tied to them.
Watch the scene at the airport again. Cap tells Tony outright that there are 5 more supersoldiers out there and that they have to stop Zemo whereas Tony is only concerned with taking them in.
I'm not gonna argue that Cap was right but 1. getting hung up on the accords is silly because of the reasons I've outlined and 2. the entire conflict is as much Tony's fault as it is Cap's because of their stubbornness and inability to compromise. If you take a "side" in the overall conflict, you've completely missed the point of the entire movie.
To me, this was actually a good thing. I didn't hate Cap, but I thought he was loyal to a fault, but it made me realize Cap isn't perfect. He has his own morals and motives that he stands by, even if it conflicts with the very things he had trusted. It is what makes Cap such a good character.
No. Civil War is the best superhero ensemble movie made yet. Others should take note.
Edit:
Your post makes no sense. You pretty much are asking for an even more by the numbers movie than the one we got. 👌
Edit:
Couldn't disagree more. It only would have been fighting a bunch of nameless super soldiers and that is a far more boring climax, it also would have robbed Iron Man and Cap of the entire reason to fight one another.
Your post makes no sense. You pretty much are asking for an even more by the numbers movie than the one we got. 👌
GuitarAtomik
Member
Why? The fact that Zemo killed all the soldiers better illustrates the point that that's not what his plan was about. Activating them would have only muddied it.
Captain America doesn't really have an argument. He talks about taking responsibility, but he never does. It is brought up how the accords would unreasonably hinder their work, but that contradicts all we know/see in MCU. The idea that these people, superpowered or not, should be allowed to do whatever they want (even in other countries) makes no sense whatsoever.
SonofdonCD
Member
Because he wanted to get to the bottom of what Zemo did to Bucky, and having the UN get in the way would only waste time that they did not have. By the time they brought Bucky back, God knows how much time would've transpired, besides the fact that Bucky would definitely be detained for who knows how long (if not outright killed for his earlier escape, though he was brainwashed and didn't do it of his own free will) and Cap and Falcon would've been arrested (and nobody would probably listen to them at that point anyway; once you're considered a criminal, most people don't want to hear what you have to say).
Then what is the point of Widow or Tony signing the Accords if they were to just go around it immediately afterwards? That would be stupid, as it proves Cap's point that the Accords only stop them from doing what is necessary.
Cap straight up told Tony about the other Super Soldiers, but Tony wasn't hearing any of it.
Cap: Hear me out, Tony. That doctor, the psychiatrist, he's behind all of this.....you're after the wrong guy."
Tony: Your judgment is askew! Your old war buddy killed innocent people yesterday...
Cap: ...and there are five more super soldiers just like him. I can't let the doctor find them first, Tony. I can't.
He tried to talk to Tony, but because of all of the distrust and events leading up to the airport scene, Tony doesn't trust Cap enough, and was feeling the heat from Ross and T'Challa enough to continue trying to take them all in, period.
He is the same person, so I don't understand how that could be. He has to do what is right, but the Accords was a well intentioned misstep on the UN's part that this movie itself proved only got in the way. The concept of oversight on the Avengers is probably necessary, but I don't think the execution was good. If some things could be amended perhaps Cap could sign. But why would they craft this legislation without consulting those that it will be affecting directly? This is like not consulting gay rights activists before crafting Same Sex Marriage laws. And why would you sign in the hopes that they amend it later, and not the other way around? That would be foolish.
The only way that Cap is different from Winter Soldier to Civil War is that he is less trusting of government. Rightfully so, as the organization that he gave up his life to protect ended up being infiltrated by the very enemy he fought against all those years ago. His motivations are perfectly understandable and in line with his character arc, even if you don't personally agree with them. Quite frankly, if he made the choice to sign the Accords at any point in this film, it would go against his character development.
This is why the movie is a success. There are legitimate arguments to defend either side. No one is 100% in the right or wrong here. I could argue for either side. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle,
No the best part of the Scene was Zemo shooting them in the head and Iron Man fighting Cap. Having the winter Soldiers fight will be the same thing people been complaining third acts of blockbusters.
On one hand, I wouldn't want super people who answer to no one but themselves. On the other hand, I wouldn't want super people who answer to the government.
The Maverick
Member
Top 3 MCU movie and totally delivered as one of my favorite movie experiences of the year. I don't agree with you, OP.
Tony lost me when he allied with Thunderbolt.
Monocle
Member
Maybe all of the people who are too cool for Marvel will finally make good on their promise to stop engaging with the damn movies.
Every time there's a new one, I have to hear about how soulless and terrible these consistently entertaining films are, and why nobody with taste could possibly appreciate them.
I don't think they were really engaging with it to begin with. Half the criticisms revolve around shit that was clearly explained in the movie. Remember to pay attention between the punches and explosions, folks. There's information there.
Monocle
Member
But it's a Marvel movie... How am I supposed to stay awake through the first action scene, herp derp.
I kinda love the fact that people are still arguing about who was right
My stance is if I were a citizen in the MCU. I'd side with the Accords because super people doing whatever they want is a scary thought. However, if I were Cap or any of the other heroes and I had seen personally how easily the governments of the world can be corrupted, I'd hesitate to sign without better contingencies. The Accords themselves were not a good document.
Hippopuncher12
Member
I didn't hate it...but I didn't love it either. It was kind of just there to me. It was better than most of the other superhero movies though that have come out recently that is for damn sure.
The Artisan
Member
damn, this thread is still going? i thought it would have died by now
Pretty much. It was awesome at first but it's too much of the same thing over and over again now. Haven't even watched Doctor Strange, which is abnormal for me with Marvel movies. Feels like there's no heart or ambition left in these movies.
Personally I'm hoping DC will do something unique with their DCEU but I get the feeling they're gonna go down the same road, since it's working for Marvel. Bleh.
Bumping it doesn't help.
Fancyarcher
Member
No, but I could understand why somebody wouldn't like it. Cap still felt like the main character to me though.
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