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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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How can the crazy catalans do not want to belong to Spain when things such as "les hemos jodido la sanidad" exist among other innocent pearls from the central government, eh?
This is what happens when you screw over a dormant sentiment with shit like the crippled Estatut, shit day and night over the language and education, indiscriminate use of the Tribunal Constitucional as the PP tool, and so on and so on.
I won't deny CiU used the independence as a veil to hide their corruption, but to try and paint this as the Catalans being brainwashed and want independence just because is to completely miss half of the story. Spain, or rather PP and Psoe to an extent, have been shitting the bed for decades and now they want to end it by threatening to cancel the autonomy? Good fucking luck with that.
This is what happens when you screw over a dormant sentiment with shit like the crippled Estatut, shit day and night over the language and education, indiscriminate use of the Tribunal Constitucional as the PP tool, and so on and so on.
I won't deny CiU used the independence as a veil to hide their corruption, but to try and paint this as the Catalans being brainwashed and want independence just because is to completely miss half of the story. Spain, or rather PP and Psoe to an extent, have been shitting the bed for decades and now they want to end it by threatening to cancel the autonomy? Good fucking luck with that.
Audioboxer
Member
I feel you bro... Me and my fiancé are about to move from London to Barcelona but we ended up deciding to move back to Italy
Since I was born in Barcelona more than 30 years ago, I've never felt attacked by the opressive state... and its true that people thinks that if we get independence, catalunya will be a paradise, without unemployement, great salaries, better pensions... like catalan goverment said, catalunya will be the denmark or switzerland of the mediterranean.
One of the main reasons for independentist is that they dont want to send money to extremadura, murcia, andalucia and other poor spanish regions... I ask them, if catalunya reachs independence, why barcelona have to send money to girona, lleida o tarragona (other three regions of catalunya)? Maybe an independent catalunya will allow to barcelona celebrate a referendum and become a richer and independent country.
All of this situation is shit, and both goverments (specially spanish) dont do anything to solve it. I only hope that all catalans can live togheter in harmony just like as till now, if we achieve or not the independence.
And the last thing, I hate that a few independist call fachas (fascist) to that catalans like me that arent agree with independence (and dont matter if you re agree with a legal referendum).
One of the main reasons for independentist is that they dont want to send money to extremadura, murcia, andalucia and other poor spanish regions... I ask them, if catalunya reachs independence, why barcelona have to send money to girona, lleida o tarragona (other three regions of catalunya)? Maybe an independent catalunya will allow to barcelona celebrate a referendum and become a richer and independent country.
All of this situation is shit, and both goverments (specially spanish) dont do anything to solve it. I only hope that all catalans can live togheter in harmony just like as till now, if we achieve or not the independence.
And the last thing, I hate that a few independist call fachas (fascist) to that catalans like me that arent agree with independence (and dont matter if you re agree with a legal referendum).
Mira prefiero que reviente el Teide a que intentemos ser un país la verdad
Also can I talk about the fact that we get import taxes from other European countries when that's not supposed to happen in the EU and even from THE REST OF SPAIN.
I wonder if that's even legal. Like, how does the EU allow this?
Yeah, no thanks.
After too many years of having police on the streets, dumb profiling, ETA around killing people and setting bombs and stupid confrontations against everyone for "political" reasons, the people have learned, work together and moved on.
Everyone know that together we live much better than separated, there has never been a better living conditions in euskadi than after all the bullshit nationalist stuff has decreased. We have a strong identity and nobody can take that from us, but we work much better together than separated just because several hundred years ago we were a kingdom.
Plus all nationalists from the basque country dont want the euskal herria capital to be pamplona, which historically should be
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's very telling that you forget to mention Franco's "Guardia Civil" killing everything looking remotely like a militant during decades.
His Majesty
Banned
An interesting opinion piece was posted today on a Belgian news site on the influence of the Catalan referendum on the Belgian government. A lot of separatist parties have their eyes set on Catalonia today but not a lot of them are in a ruling government.
Currently Belgium has a centre-right government consisting of christiandemocrats, liberals and N-VA, which is the largest party of the country. N-VA is a separatist party and has always supported the Catalan independence movement. There is no way for N-VA to denounce Catalan independence (or even stay quiet about it) without losing credibility with the Flemish independence movement. On the other hand no other parties in government are currently in favour of Flemish independence and are unlikely to be supportive of Catalan independence.
So N-VA will either have to stay quiet or advocate for recognition of Catalonia as a sovereign nation, likely introduction another crisis for our government.
Interesting times ahead.
Currently Belgium has a centre-right government consisting of christiandemocrats, liberals and N-VA, which is the largest party of the country. N-VA is a separatist party and has always supported the Catalan independence movement. There is no way for N-VA to denounce Catalan independence (or even stay quiet about it) without losing credibility with the Flemish independence movement. On the other hand no other parties in government are currently in favour of Flemish independence and are unlikely to be supportive of Catalan independence.
So N-VA will either have to stay quiet or advocate for recognition of Catalonia as a sovereign nation, likely introduction another crisis for our government.
Interesting times ahead.
I'm not sure if it's worth of a bump or a new thread but Wednesday the Catalan parliament approved the referendum for the Oct 1 , and yesterday approved the legal framework for the transition if the "Yes" wins.
Of course the Spanish constitutional court alreadly blocked the law but still... what happened this week has been a shitshow here.
And next Monday is Catalonia National Day...
Of course the Spanish constitutional court alreadly blocked the law but still... what happened this week has been a shitshow here.
And next Monday is Catalonia National Day...
This isn't particularly aimed at Spain, but I do find our hypocrisy on self determination in the west to be slightly amusing. We're all for self determination for other peoples - but god help you if you want to leave a western state,p. The fact that the Scottish independence vote was seen as so unusual and such a rarely is a bit odd given the UN principles we've all signed up too and the democratic values we preach. If people if a region, in a fair and transparent referendum, want to form their own state what exactly are our moral arguments against that?
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Edit: nevermind
Still dont think its going to happen. I have much love for my Catalan friends but it seems like an epically bad idea
Still dont think its going to happen. I have much love for my Catalan friends but it seems like an epically bad idea
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Because the referendum isn't fair nor transparent, it's a consultation outside of any national or international legal framework, with no warranties, no impartial observers, they pulled the list of voters from god knows where, their draft of a constitution does away with the independence of the judiciary power...
And modern Catalonian secesionism comes from CiU, the corrupt rightwing party who'd eagerly privatize the police to better bash the skulls of protesters.
ETA were the good guys for a few years, then the dictatorship ended (with plenty of political victims everywhere in Spain) and ETA kept butchering civilians for decades. I'm Basque by the way.
I agree, I mean, I'm all for voting, I think it's the only solution for this clusterfuck.
But the Oct1 referendum doesn't have any warranties, it's more of a show for the pro-independence parties. I don't want to vote in a referendum where there's no warranties my vote will be counted.
Of course, this is not only the fault of the pro-independence party but also from PP, but we can't form a Catalonian State already doing shaddy things.
CyclopsRock
Member
Aren't a lot of those factors forced on them by virtue of the Spanish government saying "nope" to calls for a referendum, though?
Kinda spitballing here, but if you take as your premise that a government should act to serve the needs of it's governed people, then you'd want to ensure that the government you have can effectively act upon that. So there's a question of size there. Hull as an independent city state might not be able to effectively serve the needs of its people, but the People's Democratic Republic of Yorkshire might be able to? But then you've got fully independent sovereign nations with a population smaller than Hull, so does that even matter?
You could also argue along the lines that it'd be immoral to not collectively share common resources. If Hull found enough oil in the Humber to rival Saudi Arabia, and we declared independence to spend it all on ourselves, then would that be immoral and unfair on the rUK?
veryslowhand
Banned
I don't think that even the ones promoting it belive this is going forward.
marcbret87
Member
The real problem is that the situation is in a sort-of deadlock.The Catalonian parliament is dominated by pro-independence parties, but just about (72 vs 63), and the share of the vote they got in the last election was slightly below 50% (48%). It should also be added that the 72 seats majority is made of two parties which are really different: one is a union of "traditional" political parties, while the other is sort of anti-capitalist. One could argue that pushing such drastic changes with such a small majority is not really the right way to do things.
Also, and following from that, Catalonia has no real way of achieving independence. One does not declare independence, one has to be ready to exert it. To do that one of these conditions has to be fulfilled:
1. A large majority of the population is no longer listening to the central government, such that independence is a "established fact on the ground" (like Lithuania in 1990),
2. You go to war for it (as in the Balkans in the early 90s)
3. Some foreign power is sponsoring you (Kosovo)
I hope number 2 will never happen, and in any case Catalonia has no army. Number 3 is also impossible because the EU has already said it won't support it, likely because it does not want to encourage similar movements in other regions. Number 1, as I said before, is not happening because while there is about 40-50% (at best) rooting for independence, that is enough to force anybody into action.
Personally, I think the Catalonian government knows that, but if you now say: "there is nothing we can do" you look like an idiot. Hence, their strategy is to force a confrontation and hope that this will bring about a foreign intervention and hope things will go their way.
Also, and following from that, Catalonia has no real way of achieving independence. One does not declare independence, one has to be ready to exert it. To do that one of these conditions has to be fulfilled:
1. A large majority of the population is no longer listening to the central government, such that independence is a "established fact on the ground" (like Lithuania in 1990),
2. You go to war for it (as in the Balkans in the early 90s)
3. Some foreign power is sponsoring you (Kosovo)
I hope number 2 will never happen, and in any case Catalonia has no army. Number 3 is also impossible because the EU has already said it won't support it, likely because it does not want to encourage similar movements in other regions. Number 1, as I said before, is not happening because while there is about 40-50% (at best) rooting for independence, that is enough to force anybody into action.
Personally, I think the Catalonian government knows that, but if you now say: "there is nothing we can do" you look like an idiot. Hence, their strategy is to force a confrontation and hope that this will bring about a foreign intervention and hope things will go their way.
It is clear that the refendum on the 1st Oct has 0 warranties...it is also clear that it is the only movement catalan gevernment can do to open the eyes and ears of the Spanish gov., who (exclusively for "votes" reasons, they know it gives them lots of votes in the rest of Spain to trash-treat catalans) refuse to look toghether with catalan government a solution good for all.
I just can remember in 2010 when catalan people was promised by Spanish government to change their local rights-relation with the rest of Spain ("estatut d'autonomia"). When the Spanish government used the judges to avoid it...they forgot to look for a solution toghether...they just ignored their promises and let catalan people quite frustrated. Since then they asked to start discussions with Spanish government to change things...with a patience I had never seen (1.5-2 million people going every year into the streets with no answer / movement form the Spanish gov!!).
BR
I just can remember in 2010 when catalan people was promised by Spanish government to change their local rights-relation with the rest of Spain ("estatut d'autonomia"). When the Spanish government used the judges to avoid it...they forgot to look for a solution toghether...they just ignored their promises and let catalan people quite frustrated. Since then they asked to start discussions with Spanish government to change things...with a patience I had never seen (1.5-2 million people going every year into the streets with no answer / movement form the Spanish gov!!).
BR
Ether_Snake
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Lol at people thinking Spain would send in the military to prevent this.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Pretty much guaranteed that they won't get a representative vote for a variety of reasons (look at the prior "consultation" with likely similar accessibility), and aren't to be trusted to count fairly either, so it should not go ahead. Whether they should be able to hold one or not is irrelevant, because what they the Catalan government is holding will not give a representative result as it won't be fully accessible, and that is crystal clear.
Bad.....how exactly? We heard the same tired old propaganda in the Scottish indy ref, that independence would be disastrious, that "we're better together". But you know what, I think the real reason why the English and Spanish don't want independence for their outer territories isn't because they're only looking out for fellow citizens but from purely selfish self-interest. Rump UK/Rump Spain would be diminished with the loss of Scotland/Catalonia and do everything possible to stop this. Never mind the fact that such independent country's in this globalised world can and do exceed and prosper. Was Ireland wrong to leave Britain? Absolutely not, it was the best thing we ever did.
Besides, as part of the EU what would radically change in the relationship between Spain and Catalonia? There'd still be an open border of free trade and people. Both peoples could live and work freely in either state.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
...A UDI Catalonia would not be in the EU. That's a fact.
But you've made it clear in the past that you don't care about facts.
You're just spouting the usual unionist propaganda that I've come to expect from you. No part of the EU can be forcefully ejected from the Union. The Commission issued an advisory opinion on the matter, but that's all it is, an opinion. There's been no judgements or rulings issued by the ECJ, the ultimate abiter of all things judicial in the European Union, of what happens if a part of one EU state leaves another. If one part of California secedes it doesn't just stop being part of the United States. And likewise one part of an EU state seceding doesn't necessarily stop being part of the EU.
So unless you're an ECJ judge please don't be lecturing on facts. Because right now no one knows.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/812608/european-union-catalonia-independence-spain-brussels-rajoy-juncker-piris
You really think the EU is going to accept a member who just UDI'd with an illegal and questionable referendum with no foreign observers? You can't be serious? After Scotland was told it would have to re-join through the regular system?
You're not in touch with reality here. The EU wants no part of this. Nobody in their right mind would; it's a messy situation.
Only illegal to the Spanish. Who gives a fuck about that given the context?
autumnleaf
Member
Spain is one of the EU member states so...
The Express? Really? Really?!
Edit:
And just so you know precedence has already been established here by the ICJ re Kosovo that UDI is perfectly legal. Many EU states, as well as the EU recognise Kosovan independence.
I get that facts are something alien to an Ulster unionist (those lovely chaps who threatened war against Britain if Irish Home Rule was enacted by the elected House of Commons) but you'd do well in actually reading some international judgements once in a while.
llien
Member
No. This would be like Scotland leaving UK, with Catalan referendum being illegal under Spanish law on top of it.
llien
Member
He is right, though.
When country is split into pieces (e.g. ex USSR) one (or none) of the pieces take over the rights/duties of the former one, e.g. Russia inherited whatever belonged to USSR abroad as well as all the treaties etc.
In case Catalonia leaves Spain, obviously mainland Spain will retain "pre-split Spain"'s status.
They did say that Scotland needed to rejoin since they where Perot the EU via U.K... so if Catalonia seperate they would be a whole new country (which Scotland is already) with no ties to any foreign unions or countries. They would need to start from scratch, which is what they want I assume. I would also assume that Spain would veto a membership into the EU also?
No one is arguing otherwise. Not sure what point is being made here.
Except it was just the Commission who issued that opinion. It wasn't a legal opinion of a court like the ECJ. Many argue that it would be illegal for the EU to unilaterally strip millions of Europeans of their EU citizenship because they withdrew from an EU member state. Until ECJ judges issue a ruling no one can claim that Catalonia woulf be ejected from the EU post independence ref.
It's no different from a part of a US state seceding and being told it's also out of the federal union. It wouldn't be. The EU isn't a federal union but it's far and above an intergovernmental organisation. In many ways it's a proto-federal entity.
ClosingADoor
Member
When you create a new country, you reset your diplomatic relations unless the other party agrees to just copy the old one over. That seems like a pretty standard thing. Unless the EU rules otherwise, we should not assume Catalonia could simply inherit Spains current position in the EU.
So it is different.
I agree with you with Spain gov being the first at fault here. And I absolutely think that the only way out for this is to vote.
But what will happen at 1-O is a farse. You even recognize it will have 0 warranties, why do it this way then? Just make a DUI and don't waste our times with farses if you don't give a fuck about what the whole of Catalonians thinks.
No one is arguing Catalonia would "inherit" Spain's position in the EU.
ClosingADoor
Member
If you are arguing that Catalonia would just automatically be part of the EU if they would split from Spain, then that is what I mean. People can't just assume they would remain part of the EU when leaving a EU member state.
And if they need to negotiate their new position, then Spain has a veto over everything, so... that is going to be some difficult talks.
As spaniard:
- There should be some kind of non-binding referendum for catalonians to be able to express their desires and problems with the actual situation and the central government should try to reach a common ground.
- It's sad how it's being promoted in Catalonia that southern spaniards are pretty much subhumans and savages. Also sad how the actual central government is clueless about Catalonia and just goes with "Muh Law!"
- History is being brought and twistted by political reasons, people tend to forget how Andalusia (and to be precise the Kingdom of Seville and Granada) was one the richest region, if not the most, in Spain (or Castile + Aragon) from 1400 until 1850, and during all those centuries it did pay a fair chunk of taxes that were redistributed by the rest of the country.
(M. Martin Rodriguez "Disparidades regionales: perspectiva historica y europea". España econonomia ante el siglo XXI pp 483-506)
- There should be some kind of non-binding referendum for catalonians to be able to express their desires and problems with the actual situation and the central government should try to reach a common ground.
- It's sad how it's being promoted in Catalonia that southern spaniards are pretty much subhumans and savages. Also sad how the actual central government is clueless about Catalonia and just goes with "Muh Law!"
- History is being brought and twistted by political reasons, people tend to forget how Andalusia (and to be precise the Kingdom of Seville and Granada) was one the richest region, if not the most, in Spain (or Castile + Aragon) from 1400 until 1850, and during all those centuries it did pay a fair chunk of taxes that were redistributed by the rest of the country.
(M. Martin Rodriguez "Disparidades regionales: perspectiva historica y europea". España econonomia ante el siglo XXI pp 483-506)
They would have no position since they are a whole new country. Negotiations with the EU to become a member take years since they need to fulfill certain obligations. Since it is a new country what stops them from, as an example, forbid HBTQ movements and install a dictatorship. Since the EU won't allow those countries to join, they wouldn't be a member, and since the EU won't know what country they will become they need to become a member the regular way, sure, I assume it will go faster if they more or less copy paste Spain but still.
TanookiTom
Member
This is a fair point. In a truly democratic country, people should have the right to self-determine. So if a part of a western country were to split away, it's something we should accept. Saying it's against the constitution etc. should not be an argument, the constitution should then be changed accordingly.
That being said in order to do so at least the pro-independence people should make sure that it's a proper referendum, under independent surveillance to ensure that everything indeed is democratic.
Anyways I don't see it happening. I don't see a majority of people voting for independence right now as there are jut too many uncertainties.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
PP is heir to the extreme centralism of the dictatorship, and a bunch of rightwing, corrupt fucks. CiU shares the corrupt rightwing fuck part and used to work closely with them in destroying safety nets and promoting police brutality.
This is a total fight of childish egos over a non-problem between some of the two most privileged groups of Spanish society.
Edit: I find it funny that the main argument for independence is that they won't pay taxes to the "lazy savages" of the south of Spain in order to build a utopian social country. Not only it is disgustingly racist, but a good part of the independentist movement is pure neoliberalism.
If the referendum happens the majority will vote for independence, because well, they're the ones pushing for the referendum, and also they're the only ones with warranties that their vote will count.
A lot of them don't care about what will happen with EU or anything, they just want independence no matter what.
Greedings
Member
Just like Scotland.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
The Scotland referendum had warranties of neutrality, this one doesn't.
Not really, you forgot to bold the second part of the sentence and a big difference between Scotland and Catalonian referendum.
Well, I can only tell of what I have lived in. I was not alive during franco's dictatorship, so I wont talk about the experience there, only what I experienced.
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