Dagobert Duck
Member
Probably if an agreement is found, I think San Marino for example plays in one of the italian leagues...
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
- Status
Probably if an agreement is found, I think San Marino for example plays in one of the italian leagues...
Do you imagine Kosovo clubs playing Serbia league?
Besides, Catalonia have enough clubs to make a league with 2 or 3 divisions.
Dagobert Duck
Member
Well fair enough, but can you imagine what La Liga and Catalonian Liga would look like? Barca and Real just being champions every year...
RocknRola
Member
You say that, but they just tied two random matches recently, not against Barça
--
On a more serious note, what are the current perspectives? Will the No or Yes win and will the population (at large) be content with whatever the result is?
Probably it's last thought that people are thinking right now.
You say that, but they just tied two random matches recently, not against Barça
--
On a more serious note, what are the current perspectives? Will the No or Yes win and will the population (at large) be content with whatever the result is?
"Yes" will win surely because the "No" voters don't recognize this referendum as one with enough warranties for their votes (also ilegal to the current laws).
And no matter the results the population will not be content because Catalonians citizens are pretty much 50% split between the Yes and No.
Also, Catalonian government said that if the Yes win, even if, say, only 30% of people voted, the independence will begin.
Is this a serious enough proposition that I should ask my friends in Spain or one of those random nothing is going to happen things ?
2 barcelonas 2 Valencia natives
Edit :
Lol one from Valencia when I asked so what's this about is it serious went . "I have no idea wish they would just go away " lol ... Ah well complex issues ppl don't like it seems
2 barcelonas 2 Valencia natives
Edit :
Lol one from Valencia when I asked so what's this about is it serious went . "I have no idea wish they would just go away " lol ... Ah well complex issues ppl don't like it seems
RocknRola
Member
That's kinda messed up. I think in heavy decisions like this, for a result to be accepted, you'd need to have 50%+ of the total number of eligible voters actually voting. Though this is an issue a bit everywhere, plenty of elections still go ahead with whatever result they have, even if they don't have the aforementioned 50%+.
RocknRola
Member
October 1st if I'm not mistaken.
I see that the discussion here is sometimes as stupid as for the Brexit in terms of the economic impact.
I'm all for Catalonian independence if people vote for it (that means at least 50% presence and a clear majority for yes, anything else would be ridiculous), but the consequences are pretty clear for everybody (except for some Catalonian nationalist, it seems):
If Catalonia becomes independent it will automatically be outside EU and Euro and it would need to start from scratch in terms of diplomatic relations and trade agreements. Catalonia might join EU back after some years, but I'm pretty sure Spain will make everything possible to delay that as much as possible.
Just look at Scotland, after Brexit and benefiting from a very friendly attitude from EU, and they were still told that they need first to be independent and join back EU as any other country, no going around the law.
I'm all for Catalonian independence if people vote for it (that means at least 50% presence and a clear majority for yes, anything else would be ridiculous), but the consequences are pretty clear for everybody (except for some Catalonian nationalist, it seems):
If Catalonia becomes independent it will automatically be outside EU and Euro and it would need to start from scratch in terms of diplomatic relations and trade agreements. Catalonia might join EU back after some years, but I'm pretty sure Spain will make everything possible to delay that as much as possible.
Just look at Scotland, after Brexit and benefiting from a very friendly attitude from EU, and they were still told that they need first to be independent and join back EU as any other country, no going around the law.
Crow Pudding
Member
As the last referendum (yes, there was another one 2-3 years ago) it will go with the "YES" with a 90% of the votes for a 30% of the census.
If it's not consensed and vinculant, a lot of people are not even voting, so the results are highly biased.
In the best case scenario, all of this will move to a constitutional reform and lead to a federal state in the future.
If it's not consensed and vinculant, a lot of people are not even voting, so the results are highly biased.
In the best case scenario, all of this will move to a constitutional reform and lead to a federal state in the future.
It's what its going to happen. A lot of anti-independence people will not go to vote because the referendum is illegal (and the pro-No parties are telling them to not go).
1-O is going to be a pro-independence circus, basically.
It doesn't surprise me. All Spanish TV's wont stop talking about it, so I can see spanish people outside of Catalonia starting to get tired of it.
Catalonian gov is treating 1-Oct as vinculant.
Without comment on the rest, this particular comparison is bad.
The EU is a supranational body, not a single federation.
If one part of California tried to secede, they would be met with force and crushed. We have precedent for this in the United States.
Greigor The Fellhand
Member
RUssia been busy
I'm friggin Indian and I know this issue has been an issue for ages for Spain ... Wtf did Russia drag its ass into this convo ?
veryslowhand
Banned
Never, not happening.
Assange is tweeting about 'oppressor' Spain last few weeks.
But yes, this was going to happen with or without help of Russia.
Assange just want to move his ass into a independent Catalonian lol
In all seriousness, this comes from way before any of us were born. It just escalated now thanks to CiU wanting to cover his own corruptions.
Crow Pudding
Member
It's all a fight for the catalonians to choose which government want them to be robbed for.
Sometimes if someone has to steal your money, you prefer a neighbour before some foreigner.
Sometimes if someone has to steal your money, you prefer a neighbour before some foreigner.
RocknRola
Member
Way off mark on this one.
Lol people dont like Assange and use anything to complain about the guy
The Spanish government ordered the telecom companies to take down the access to the referendum website, the good old censorship. Thats what Assange was talking about and he is clearly right. I use Movistar and cant access de website.
The Spanish government ordered the telecom companies to take down the access to the referendum website, the good old censorship. Thats what Assange was talking about and he is clearly right. I use Movistar and cant access de website.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
While this is in no way a problem initiated by Russia, the PR/propaganda machine is already firing all cylinders, with Assange being the usual shithead and former FSB agent and actual RT talking head Daniel Estulin visiting TV3 to claim that once you remove Catalonia from Spain, the country becomes "northern Africa".
marcbret87
Member
As a Catalan myself, I find it absolutely ridiculous how some pro-independence people try to deny that Catalonia would be out of the EU, or selectively pick some quotes from Juncker to make it look like the EU supports the referendum.
Whatever happens on the 1st of October, the truth is Catalonia has no way of becoming independent. For that the Catalan government would have to wrestle control from the central government on many issues such as tax collection, forcing the judges and government workers to stop obeying commands from Madrid... The truth is there is not enough support to make independence a established fact on the ground. The government in Catalonia is trying to force a standoff with Madrid with the hope that the international community will intervene at some point.
Whatever happens on the 1st of October, the truth is Catalonia has no way of becoming independent. For that the Catalan government would have to wrestle control from the central government on many issues such as tax collection, forcing the judges and government workers to stop obeying commands from Madrid... The truth is there is not enough support to make independence a established fact on the ground. The government in Catalonia is trying to force a standoff with Madrid with the hope that the international community will intervene at some point.
RocknRola
Member
Sure, but Russia has little to do with the actual source of the issue. This has been a thing for a long while. In fact, if my History serves me correctly, back in 1640 when Portugal said "Thanks, but no thanks Spain" part of the reason as to why we managed to do it was because Catalonia was also trying to do it and the Spanish court decided that it was better to keep them instead of Portugal (as to stop France from entering the Iberian Peninsula).
Also, lol at the Northen Africa bit. That's as full PR as it can get.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
What I mean to say is that Russia will probably use its own tools to promote the cause. It's an extremely cheap operation with plenty of useful idiots willing to echo their vitriolic message.
It'll probably remain a small blip in the radar given that separatists don't need foreign intervention in order to reach to their audience, but it's an interesting tidbit for those interested in geopolitics, specially given that Catalonian separatists have little international support.
curi0usBystander
Member
I mean Junqueras has been repeating since I don't know how long that there is no way that we would be out ot the EU. So If you're an independentist that is ok with all this then you have to kind of belive him.
marcbret87
Member
Sure, I mean, people can believe whatever they want, but it just seems a little ludicrous to ignore all the warnings from the EU and believe the guy who won't have a say in the matter.
Russia will have been fomenting dissent and spreading bullshit nonstop since this reemerged. Anyone who says otherwise is either supremely naive and uninformed or themselves suspect. Sad, but that's the world they've made. Catalonian independence would be a massive boost to Russia's desire for EU dissolution and general chaos.
There is precisely ZERO CHANCE they haven't been stoking fires at a shocking scale.
How much will their efforts influence the outcome? I don't know, but it will be non-zero.
He may be off the mark on the amount of influence but he's 100% on point factually. Russia has been and will continue to be meddling. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise.
Crow Pudding
Member
The thing is Catalonia WANTS to stay in the EU. We are quite pro-europeists.
Russia benefits from chaos and doubt, not necessarily real world end results. Doubt about the validity of votes and information is prize enough. Doubt in European institutions and democracy IS an end goal for Putin. We can't be naive about this and we have to keep slapping his slippery little pickpocket fingers till he stops it and (lol) considers actually normalizing and working on his country's problems instead of simply contrasting his oligarch state with our perceived bogeymen.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You can't judge every single political decision through the paradigm of 'what does Russia want?'. Russia would also want an independent Scotland; that doesn't give the UK the right to deny Scotland the settlement it desires on the grounds of national security. This is ultimately an issue of self-determination for the people of Catalunya, the rest is secondary.
ClosingADoor
Member
True, but there is real danger in external actors trying to influence that with fake information, leading to different results then would otherwise take place.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Stay the hell away from Texas
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Sure, but this conversation chain started with someone saying 'Russia been busy', which is woefully ignorant. This is an issue dating back to before the Duchy of Muscowy even claimed the title Tsar of all the Russias. Reducing the recent in released prevalence of the issue to just Russia being Russia is demeaning everyone involved.
If he meant, "Russia started this" then of course you're right. But I didn't read it like that.
marcbret87
Member
Honestly, I doubt Russia has much to gain from an independent Catalonia. I can see how they benefit from Brexit and Trump, but this is simply too small, Spain is a big country for European standards but not particularly important on a political level. And I honestly doubt an independent Catalonia would look for Russia's aid.
I agree. Putin's Russia is trying to weaken and divide the world because they know it's the only way Putin's Russia can excel.
RocknRola
Member
Fair enough, however with or without Russia we'd be here at this crossroad since this is something that goes waaaaayyyy back. Now the general chaos of the 3rd ( or 4th?) biggest economy in the EU being heavily impacted by this is likely in their interest yes, I would agree witht that.
Russia meddles in a lot of things, but pinpointing them as the cause and issue in this situation makes no sense. Again, this is something that has been present in Spanish (and in particular, the Catalonian) society for centuries now; it didn't suddenly start a few years ago.
Saying "Russia has been busy" implies as much and it's just wrong, really. They might be giving the current separatist movements a "hand" of sorts, sure, but that's about it. As I said above, with or without Russia we'd be at this crossroad just the same.
What I think will happen: on oct the 1st YES will win the referendum, althought it being illegal means nothing.
government will send the military to Catalunya and some bad shit is gonna happen.
I wish i was wrong but these country mixed with nationalism will derive onto something like what i just said.
Lets hope nothing bad happens...
government will send the military to Catalunya and some bad shit is gonna happen.
I wish i was wrong but these country mixed with nationalism will derive onto something like what i just said.
Lets hope nothing bad happens...
gutter_trash
Banned
Russia is not here this time. Catalonians are pro EU.
The biggest interference by Russia in Spain was during the 1920s when USSR backed the Communist faction prior to the Civil War
The Communists were partly the reason why UK, US and France turned a blind eye when Franco won because they were Anti-Commmies.
The biggest interference by Russia in Spain was during the 1920s when USSR backed the Communist faction prior to the Civil War
The Communists were partly the reason why UK, US and France turned a blind eye when Franco won because they were Anti-Commmies.
ClosingADoor
Member
Are Catalonians really willing to pick up arms for this, outside of some fanatics?
I don't even see how you can secede these days. Does everyone suddenly stop paying taxes to Madrid, who is going to pay the salaries for the government employees there, etc, etc.
marcbret87
Member
Why would the central government need to send the military? Again, for independence to happen the government of Catalonia would need to be able to wrestle control back from the central government in Madrid. Do you think after the 1st Oct people and business will stop paying taxes to the Madrid and instead pay them to the Catalan government? That all the judges and state workers will stop answering to Madrid and suddenly do whatever the Catalan government tells them to do? Given what has been said so far, I doubt this will happen. In such a situation the Madrid government doesn't really need to do anything as drastic as sending the military. They can just ask the national police already in Barcelona to arrest the president of the Catalan government and suspend Catalonia's autonomy. As simple as that.
marcbret87
Member
Of course not. Catalonia is not in a desperate state of repression and poverty as some would have you believe. That is besides the fact that this is not the USA, people very rarely have guns at home. In the end of the day even the demonstrations for the 11th September have been losing attendance in the last couple years, so I'd be extremely skeptical that people will risk their lives and careers for this.
I think most people don't understand that a declaration of independence does not suddenly make you independent. As you point out, to function as a state lots of things need to happen, and Catalonia at the moment has no way of achieving many of them.
Nah, of course they wont. Actually no one probably will, because we are not in the 40's anymore: do you think anyone from the 1st world is gonna give his life for a nation? we are too comfy in our lives to bother with that. Im not ruling that scenario out, anyway
On the other hand, the fact that Catalonians (pro-independence ones) wont get what they want is going to cause some frustation on them
marcbret87
Member
That really is the issue here. The Catalan government is making a push towards independence without really having a solid majority or a way to actually enforce their laws. For instance, in Lithuania or Estonia in 1990 you had a support for independence of about 80% or more of the people that voted. With that level of support you can force independence as a established fact on the ground. Besides, they had the support of the USA who inmediately recognised them. In Catalonia there is nowhere near that level of support and there is nobody important at international level that will recognize Catalonia as a new independent state.
It is the executive branch of the European government. It is also the sole branch that can propose legislation. It is fairly important. It is also noteworthy that the criteria for the referendum are not in line with the criteria set forward by the European Union for for instance Kosovo and Montenegro where a simple majority was not enough. It demands a 55% majority which would be enough precedence for the European Courts not to recognize it.
- Status