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Cavaliers have traded Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Žiži, & pick

N

Ninja Scooter

Member
MBS said:
It's the playoffs that matter, if you put it down logistically. IT becomes irrelevant as a presence at the big stage, and as a C's fan it was really painful to watching him struggle as much as he did in the past 3 postseasons.
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No, not really. It's the 82 game season that matters as more than the 16 game post season. The playoffs are a small sample size. If stands to reason that if someone is good in the regular season, they are going to be good in the playoffs. Eventually those odds will bear out. It's math.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Even if you argue till the cows come home at the end of the day at best you can argue IT for Kyrie is a wash.

You throw in a likely top-3 Nets pick in a deep draft for bigs and Crowder with his contract.

Not even close.
 
M

MBS

Banned
MegaManTrigger said:
So it basically comes down to this:

Boston didn't want to pay 200mil to IT (rightfully so IMO). Cavs had to trade Kyrie because of the situation going on there.

IT vs Kyrie for both teams. Pros/Cons

Pros: Cleveland gets someone who can actually make plays and set people up instead of having situations where Kyrie pounds the ball and everyone else just watches (except for LeBron), which in turn gives Lebron potential for more rest in-game and on the bench.

Boston gets a dynamic scorer, but doesn't really play off-ball. However, I wonder how coachable Kyrie is with a smart coach like Brad Stevens. If he can change his game so that he can at least play average defense + pass the ball, then this is a major X-factor that could give Boston an insane advantage (still unlikely given Kyrie's ball habits).
.
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Do you realize that IT did the same thing last season? He played a lot more off-ball (and still not that much) in his first two years in Boston than his last one when he elevated from 22 to 29 PPG going basically iso as much as Kyrie did, if not more.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MBS said:
Do you realize that IT did the same thing last season? He played a lot more off-ball (and still not that much) in his first two years in Boston than his last one when he elevated from 22 to 29 PPG going basically iso as much as Kyrie did, if not more.
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And was, again, more efficient despite his equitable usage rate.
 
M

MBS

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
No, not really. It's the 82 game season that matters as more than the 16 game post season. The playoffs are a small sample size. If stands to reason that if someone is good in the regular season, they are going to be good in the playoffs. Eventually those odds will bear out. It's math.
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Lowry, DeRozan, and IT all had career seasons and they bombed in playoffs, especially the first two. The math argument is irrelevant because playoff environment is not a continuation of the reg.season.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MBS said:
Lowry, DeRozan, and IT all had career seasons and they bombed in playoffs, especially the first two. The math argument is irrelevant.
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Legit no debate w/ you then. If you can't quantify why a 10 game SSS should be relevant to any kind of discussion about a player's current or FV then there's nothing left to say.

Math and stats matter, it's why we have stats with averages.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
IT bombed in the playoffs?

giphy.gif
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
MBS said:
Lowry, DeRozan, and IT all had career seasons and they bombed in playoffs, especially the first two. The math argument is irrelevant because playoff environment is not a continuation of the reg.season.
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And if they didn't have those career seasons their teams don't get to the playoffs. And the playoffs are exactly that, a continuation of the reg. season. Literally. When you strip away all of the meaningless cliches and platitudes, that's exactly what it is. There is no guarantee that a player is going to have a good playoffs, just like there is no guarantee that guys aren't going to go through SSS slumps in the regular season, but again, give me a guy who is good in the regular season and more likely than not, he'll be good in the playoffs too. The actual stats almost always bear that out even if it doesn't fit in with people who like to act like the playoffs require some kind of extra special "heart" or "intangibles" or whatever other bullshit they use to avoid having to actually analyze and evaluate performance.
 
M

MBS

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Legit no debate w/ you then. If you can't quantify why a 10 game SSS should be relevant to any kind of discussion about a player's current or FV then there's nothing left to say.

Math and stats matter, it's why we have stats with averages.
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Nope. There are multiple paradigms of players (and teams), with career years completely disintegrating in playoffs. It's not about math, it's about different environment, defensive setups, officiating, and mentality in the playoffs. It's not about the number of games per se. Isaiah is one of them.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MBS said:
Nope. There are multiple paradigms of players (and teams), with career years completely disintegrating in playoffs. It's not about math, it's about different environment, defensive setups, officiating, and mentality in the playoffs. It's not about the number of games per se.
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Quantify how that impacts player performance beyond platitudes.
 
J

Jmanunknown

Member
Sanjuro said:
Have you ever watched a basketball game?
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Yes I have and go ahead and say Isaiah Thomas is not a defensive liability. The goal of the Cavs is to beat the warriors the trade does not get them any closer to that goal. I understand why they did the trade though they got a great player and some good assets in return for kyrie for who wanted out.
 
M

MBS

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Quantify how that impacts player performance beyond platitudes.
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It does. In the case of a 5'9 guy, it's entirely different. Opponent's defensive spacing is no longer regular season-wide, your first step isn't that effective against 6'3-6'4 guys anymore, you can't go in the paint and get those calls/makes as you did. Similar thing happened to DeRozan too, where his mid-range/slashing game became a weakness and he was forced to shot from beyond the arc, where he posted an all-time low of 7% from 3. Having a breakthrough regular season and career numbers does not guarantee playoff relevancy if you're not a transformational type of player. Kyrie is one of the few players with similar, if not better playoff stats comparing to their reg.seasons averages. That's leadership. That's what wins you championships in my book.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MBS said:
It does. In the case of a 5'9 guy, it's entirely different. Spacing is no longer regular season-wide, your first step isn't that effective against 6'3-6'4 guys anymore, you can't go in the paint and get those calls/makes as you did. Similar thing happened to DeRozan too, where his mid-range/slashing game became a weakness and he was forced to shot from beyond the arc, where he posted an all-time low of 7% from 3. Having a breakthrough regular season and career numbers does not guarantee playoff relevancy if you're not a transformational type of player. Kyrie is one of the few players with similar, if not better playoff stats comparing to their reg.seasons averages.
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Wat.

Go look at the finals stats, look at each players averages between playoffs and regular season.

They're basically the same. Because that's how stats work. SSS has almost no value on any sort of evaluation beyond intangibles. You're not quantifying anything, how are the gaps smaller? How is the defense "better"? What changes?
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Kyrie and IT are a wash? What on earth am I reading. Cavs are going to be worse this year. Can't hate on the pick tho.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
commish said:
Kyrie and IT are a wash? What on earth am I reading. Cavs are going to be worse this year. Can't hate on the pick tho.
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Look at the actual numbers my dude. IT was amazing last season. Cavs in addition get Crowder. It wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world if the Cavs were better next season.
 
M

MBS

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Wat.

Go look at the finals stats, look at each players averages between playoffs and regular season.

They're basically the same. Because that's how stats work. SSS has almost no value on any sort of evaluation beyond intangibles. You're not quantifying anything, how are the gaps smaller? How is the defense "better"? What changes?
Click to expand...

This is how the NBA postseason works since forever. If you're implying that there's absolutely no difference between regular/playoff defensive setups, spacing, and even officiating, then i'm out of this.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
MBS said:
This is how the NBA postseason works since forever. If you're implying that there's absolutely no difference between regular/playoff defensive setups, spacing, and even officiating, then i'm out of this.
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I'm asking you to quantify these things. "It exists obviously because it just does" is not an answer. A variable isn't something intangible.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
MBS said:
This is how the NBA postseason works since forever. If you're implying that there's absolutely no difference between regular/playoff defensive setups, spacing, and even officiating, then i'm out of this.
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There are absolutely differences in play off games, by virtue of the fact that you are playing the same team multiple times in a row, and also not playing back to backs/4 games in 5 nights/traveling as much. But by in large production carries over. The guys who are good in the regular season are good in the playoffs. To varying degrees, yes, in the same way that a guy who is good in December is as good (to varying degrees) in January and February for the most part. Again, this is how statistics work. Anomalies are just that. You give me James Harden or IT for 10 playoffs series worth of games and I'm willing to bet that the stars normalize to essentially what they are in the regular season. There is no extra special skill to be good in playoff games.
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Ninja Scooter said:
Look at the actual numbers my dude. IT was amazing last season. Cavs in addition get Crowder. It wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world if the Cavs were better next season.
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Look at the numbers?!?! Smh. You know that's not how basketball works. There are so many variables. You can't dumb it down to 3 numbers.
 
T

Two Words

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
No, not really. It's the 82 game season that matters as more than the 16 game post season. The playoffs are a small sample size. If stands to reason that if someone is good in the regular season, they are going to be good in the playoffs. Eventually those odds will bear out. It's math.
Click to expand...
You are assuming that playoff games are identical to regular season games. They're not.
 
R

Rival

Gold Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Look at the actual numbers my dude. IT was amazing last season. Cavs in addition get Crowder. It wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world if the Cavs were better next season.
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Agree. Crowder is a heck of a player imo. If IT is healthy from his hip injury the Cavs will be better off. Plus the probably high pick in what should be a good draft is the best thing that could happen to the Cavs. Now I just need my Bulls to buy out D Wade so he can join Lebron for one last run cause I need the Bulls to suck.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Cavs planning for that post-lebron future

And idk what Ainge is doing. Kyrie for IT isn't that big an upgrade aside from age and they gave up some good assets.
 
M

MBS

Banned
Frozenprince said:
I'm asking you to quantify these things. "It exists obviously because it just does" is not an answer. A variable isn't something intangible.
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This is not a quantification of God's existence or not. It's been covered billions of times since the inception of all major sports leagues on how the playoffs are the grittiest, slowest, toughest period of the season. Go argue with any player, coach or sports writer on how the postseason is absolutely not any different than the regular season, performance and stats-wise.
 
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