-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
COMICS! |OT| May 2015. Those things your favorite movie/show/game/etc. was based on.
- Thread starter Spike Spiegel
- Start date
- Status
Baron von Loathsome
Member
There was already a thread for FCBD, though.
Batman, as I said, I haven't gotten far in, so I don't want to say anything. And of what I've read, I don't feel Batman was preaching anything just yet.
But I can't see how anyone could interpret Flex Mentallo as anything but a soapbox where he peaches about how awesome the silver age was and how idealism is awesome and people who obsess with darker aspects of narrative are wrong. That's explicitely made text in the end.
As for All Star Superrman....*sigh*, Look I really don't want to go into this right now, because it'd take up as much text as Pax to explain fully. And I'd probably have to reread it, because I haven't read it in a year or more. But it depicts a world that, for lack of a better phrase, I don't believe in. The thing I remember most about is how absurdly ineffective those who opposed Superman were, particularly lex luthor, and I don't mean necessarily in power. Any time Luthor tried to justify his hatred, the flaws of his arguments were as blatant as a brick to the face. He remarks about how men who actually want to be superman draw their eyebrows unconciously like his, he does it a few panels later, all without any self awareness of what it implies about him. Compare that to Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, where Luthor made compelling and articulate arguments for his being against man of steel. We got a strong sense of interiority on the character, able to legitimately see his viewpoint. Luthor came across as a raving idiot while superman is just the guy pinching the top of his nose, trying to be the adult in the situation with the manchild. All of Superman's opponents had ineffective philosophies. Atlas and the other dude were shallow jerks that wanted to bang lois, the kryptonians admitted they were wrong like an after school special, and I know I keep coming back to this point, none of the characters felt like real people. The world was one which was designed to have evil be defeated by good, constantly and easily, without any casualties. I know people died in ASS, but I felt like it's only on the allowance of superman that it happens. Pa Kent died not because there was no way to save him, but because Superman allowed it. It's kind of why that page with the suicidal girl falls flat to me. There is no way that this world would allow her to die. She could have jumped, hit the ground, and I'd sooner believe that it would spontaneously turn into marshmellows that save her than believe that she would have died on impact. Somehow, someway, she was going to live and get better, no matter what. That's just the way this world works and it's not a world I can believe in, no matter how hard I try. So I can't get any warm and fuzzy feels from it. It's too fake. I don't know if it necessarily was preaching at me, but it was a work of solid idealism to the extent that I could not accept.
And for the record, I'd like to emphasize again that I haven't read ASS in forever. And I've actually experienced a period of artistic growth in the last two years, where my values of what is good writing have shifted. Maybe if I reread ASS, I'd get a different reading of it. But the above is a fraction of the few things I do remember about my experience reading it.
Interesting. What's your reasoning for that?
Well, that's kind of the crux of the issue for me. I don't care about Morrison. I care about the stories. One may come from another, but they're seperate things for me. I don't really care about Alan Moore either, even though I love his work. I do have some author's I follow, like Neil Gaiman, which I think are good and interesting people, but they do not exist to me when I am in the world they've written. Whoever Neil Gaiman is or whatever he believes is completely disconnected to what I see when I read Sandman. Why should Morrison be a special case where I have to read his thesis on superheroes just to comprehend his stories?
Anyone know where I could buy posters to frame of these Batman covers?
MCS 6.75 inch x 10.37 inch Comic Book Display Frame, Black (40943) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWGI3HE/?tag=neogaf0e-20
?
Tyrant Rave
Banned
I really wish I could tell you (I really do) but I don't remember anything about it, it's been a loooong time since I read it. I just remember it being a drag. The last time it was brought up here I think most of us agreed that we didn't like it.
slightconfuse
Banned
But a writers Belford and motivation completely inflict their stories. Nail gaimean is the perfect example of that
That's funny. I lurk here occasionally, and the one time I've seen it mentioned, the person said something to the effect of "Only Morrison would be brilliant enough to know that the story he was trying to tell couldn't be depicted in a panel, so he went with prose instead".
JUST A HEADS UP!
Mudcrab and I are working on the Secret Wars OT.
Logo:
Mudcrab and I are working on the Secret Wars OT.
Logo:
Baron von Loathsome
Member
TheDarkKnight774
Member
lewd
Of course. And Moore also showed his own worldview in V for Vendetta. The difference is that the best writers I see go out of their way to justify whati s going on and why and depict it in as authentic light as possible. For example V for Ventettta. Moore is an anarchist. Does this mean VfV is pro-anarchy? Debatably, but the fact is that it shows a ton of horrible stuff that comes with it and he went out of his way to explain how things lead to that situation in detail. With it, Moore paints a picture that I feel is true to how Anarchy would be like if it came about. I see it as a complex depiction that isn't a veiled agenda to make me think like Moore does. He might agree with it, but that doesn't mean he's holding back the less wholesome parts of it.
Impossible for an author to completely divorce themselves from their worldview. And preaching might not be exactly the term to describe what Morrison is doing. I don't know what the exact term would be. However, a lot of his comics do feel like Morrison is trying to persuade you to some kind of viewpoint, whereas I feel good art depicts a situation or person and lets you go from there. Passions about anarchy or idealism or whatever might direct the kind of situation an author is interested in portraying, but I don't feel it's the same as trying to press that worldview onto a reader.
slightconfuse
Banned
Really hope secret wars is the end of Steve Rodgers being a stubborn asshole thing. It's getting pretty passé
slightconfuse
Banned
I feel like Morrison is less preachy and more just introducing things that interest him. Doom patrol is him just throwing everything at the wall. Preachy would be something like Holy Terror
Just to spite you Marvel is going to bring over Ultimate Cap.
I thought this was the Messi OT thread.
"Only a bitter little adolescent boy could confuse realism with pessimism." - Flex Mentallo
It's very clearly putting down an entire perspective of reality many people share with extreme condescension. I'm an idealist myself, but I have no right to deride someone who thinks the bad aspects of life outweigh the good. Not only do I not know the life they've lived, but even as an idealist, there's the possibility that's true. It's not like any single person has a complete perspective on life.
Holy Terror is worse, with a way more poisonous message, but that doesn't mean Grant Morrison doing it is any more bearable.
Edit: and to be clear, if this was flex mentallo, the character, who believed that, it'd be one thing. I'm okay with internal characters believing it. But the reason I don't like it as Morrison told it is because Morrison was clearly using Flex Mentallo as a mouthpiece. The entire story was engineered so he could lecture the readers (and industry, I guess) on how the silver age was awesome and how optimism is whats truly cool. It makes the whole thing feel artificial and that's what makes it bad writing to me.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Too bad that's July though
I read the Iceman arc of Astonishing X-Men last night and oh man, I think it's my favorite X-story so far. Liu is probably my favorite writer so far. I just re-read it and it's just phenomenal stuff.
Also, not to hard on it, but after reading that, I'm even more concerned about Bandis' move with Bobby. It makes even less sense now and what comes of it will probably be the same. It just doesn't work. Liu's story is such a deep dive on what makes the character tick for four issues straight you can't follow it up with
She would've had to mention that if it was going to fly, believably.
Also, not to hard on it, but after reading that, I'm even more concerned about Bandis' move with Bobby. It makes even less sense now and what comes of it will probably be the same. It just doesn't work. Liu's story is such a deep dive on what makes the character tick for four issues straight you can't follow it up with
"Bobby, you're gay."
Filthy Slug
Crowd screaming like hounds at the heat of the chase/ All the colors of the rainbow flood my face
But contextualized, that was a response to the utter "gritty/realistic" approach that comics were being swallowed by post-DKR, as well as a kind of shrugging-off of the whole "superheroes are dead" thing post-Watchmen. Like, Flex is about celebrating Superheroes in all their creative, inspiring, and iconic essence, all the while telling a personal story.
Completely unrelated, but Bitch Planet continues to be fucking excellent, and it's kind of awesome to read that Kelly and De Landro are taking the time to present scenes in the way they want them to be presented. Like, they're not rushing out a quick and silly sexy shower scene just to hit a deadline.
slightconfuse
Banned
That's the whole point of the comic though. It's a rejection of watchman and DKR. We should want our heroes to be more fantastical and amazing. Not everything needs to be down and dirty. You are left with identity crisis at that point. It's okay to be pessimistic but that is also not how the world really works some times. It's a childish notion that the world is dark and the stories we tell have to be that way.
KoruptData
Member
I just got into comics 2 years ago. I was cold on Morrison at first. It took until Final Crisis for me to enjoy something by him. Wait, I'll just do this.
Grant Morrison
Like :
Doom Patrol (my favorite)
We3
Final Crisis
Arkham Asylum
Batman and Son
Batman RIP
N52 Batman Incoperated
Dislike
The rest of his Batman run not listed above
All-Star Superman
Action Comics
My thoughts on Multiversity are fresh and new but I was somewhat let down by the ending. I wish I could read people's analysis on it to maybe see it from a different perspective.
Grant Morrison
Like :
Doom Patrol (my favorite)
We3
Final Crisis
Arkham Asylum
Batman and Son
Batman RIP
N52 Batman Incoperated
Dislike
The rest of his Batman run not listed above
All-Star Superman
Action Comics
My thoughts on Multiversity are fresh and new but I was somewhat let down by the ending. I wish I could read people's analysis on it to maybe see it from a different perspective.
slightconfuse
Banned
Much like flex ,multiversity is a statement on media/comics. Everything is being gentried by dark and gritty and everything is starting to look the dame. But there are some (Morrison I guess) who will reject it. Defenitly need to read it all in ine sitting, my reading could be off.
The entire series spans the history of comics to show that there is room for all types of stories(which the gentry were fighting against)
The problem and where you guys and I disagree is that I don't believe stories 'should' be anything as a rule, and I don't like people saying otherwise. The closest thing I think stories 'should' be is true. That's not realism, it's just genuine or authentic. If dark, grit, and pessimism is part of the truth of the world, then Morrison has no business saying it's not how the world works. I don't think anyone has enough world experience to say whether the world is best viewed by idealism or pessimism. How would one even judge that in the first place? It's a pointless question. But stories are about depicting authentic points of life, and pessimism can be as valid as idealism. In my experience, the best stories just depict the situation or person by themselves, and let everyone find their own answers.
Just saying "lolz, ur wrong" with any kind of determination on something so beyond any sort of quantification is borderline offensive to me. But ignoring that, it just ruins the story. Not because I disagree with it, but the fact that he's using the story as a means to tell that message. The message doesn't matter. You might argue that FM is a personal story as well as a soapbox, but I just don't see it that way and it's too late in any case. The magic is lost. The story is a means. A tool. The man behind the curtains has been outed and trying to go along with the play now is a farce. I can't get lost in the narrative when it's so blatantly Morrison using the characters as a mouthpiece. It's like pretending to have a genial conversation with a mortal enemy. Both of you know whatever is being spoken is not whats actually going on. If I can't immerse myself into the narrative, believe in it, then there is no point to it for me.
EXCITE
BuddyJoeHooker
Member
Pick-up post from April, a lot of reading to do.
Tyrant Rave
Banned
That sucks dude Why would they do that to Superior Foes of all books
Why would they do that to Superior Foes of all booksFreezasaurus
Member
Jesus, did he try to fuck it?
Was a she and she put it in my bag and I didn't see it until I got home so I have no idea. It's water damaged and just straight up crumpled.
my name is ed
Banned
what a bunch of assholes
So thoughts on the finale of Multiversity, spoilers because obviously:
So this is why I knew the ending was gonna leave people disappointed, it's very much in line with how he ended his Batman run, by putting all the toys back in the box and not having a true resolution. It is very much a statement on the superhero industry. Basically it doesn't matter how many alternate superheroes Nix is able to assemble to fight the Gentry, they will always be there. He pretty much HAD to put the toys back in the box and leave it open ended because to do otherwise would be saying that the era of similarly themed/house style work for hire comics was over. Ultimately the Gentry (and Ultraa) represented the genericization of corporate comics, it goes back to Ultra Comics, the only way the heroes truly win is if you stop reading the comics. There will always be another crisis, another reboot, and despite minor deviations here and there the status quo will be forever maintained because that's how you do business. Multiversity was both a love letter to the creativity of the superhero genre and an indictment of the current corporate comics culture. Since it's Morrison Nix gets his happy ending, but because of the nature of the beast the struggle against comic gentrification will always be there.
Just my two cents.
Poodlestrike
Banned
How the hell do you even do that to a book.
Like, what.
Like, what.
I'm gonna try and reformulate my thoughts on The Multiversity, with some added stuff.
There's a big reveal at the end of Multiversity #2, and it's when you see The Empty Hand in full. On his forehead, there's the same logo that's on Ultra Comics' chest. And we know from Ultra Comics -the comic itself, not the character of the same name, try and keep up- that You are Ultra Comics. You are the Empty Hand. You're the Oblivion Machine.
There's multiple signs pointing to that, starting with the most obious one : the very thing giving the entire comic its forward momentum, in a very concrete sense, is your hand. And since it's turning a page, or sliding it off the iPad screen, it's not holding anything. It's empty. Literally. It's your empty hand causing all of this.
Less obvious, but it was the thing that illuminated it for me, from Pax Americana : that final moment, in the interrogation room, when the Peacemaker literally points at You when asked who he's trying to save the world from. It's a panel that works on multiple levels, like much of Pax.
(Which, by the way, I have a completely new interpretation on now: I think Earth-4 is not the world least corrupted by the Gentry, but in fact the exact opposite. It's where the Gentry's victory is the most total.)
(While we're on the topic of Pax, fun link : the massless time-symmetrical boson Captain Atom is referring to is page 12 and 13. Page 12 of Ultra Comics is when Ultra Comics comes alive. It's not just the godly spread blending three timelines. NEAT!)
But so, the Gentry: they work for the Empty Hand. So, for You. That's the Big Idea: they're not a group, as much as they are a metaphor for a process. And that process is consuming stories, turning them into ideas, remaking them through your own interpretation of facts, MUCH LIKE WHAT I AM DOING RIGHT NOW. You can see individual members of the Gentry as aspects of that process, like Intellectron, breaking down stories into something far smaller, points about fiction itself, pure ideas.
It's an entirely destructive process, as shown by the reveal of Multiverse-2's demise, and by the end of Ultra Comics. When you close a book, when you put it down, you kill that universe, if only until you pick it back up again. It's a big and ugly Oblivion Machine. But, in the same way Intellectron is defeated by virtue of being a character in Ultra Comics, the Gentry and the Empty Hand bring about their own destruction.
Because through the destructive process that is reading, we give the stories power, we let them become something bigger, something inspiring, heroic, greater than ourselves. Through stories, we created bad, to have it defeated by good. As repeated often in the series : The Door Has One Side, And Opens Both Ways.
The curse of Ultra Comics, the thing that made every character reading it go mad, is that it makes that whole idea transparent. It shows your potential as creator and destroyer, and it's a fucking lot to handle: The Atom's spirits get shattered, Alexis Luthor goes power-mad, Captain Atom leaves the universe, to name examples.
In the end, Nix gets the rent money because we need him to. Because the process is always going to perpetuate itself, which is what's wonderful about it. That's what The Multiversity is about, how we make the world run on stories. It's literally the same thing he's said before, but bigger, all-encompassing, taking the entire history of DC to do so.
There's a big reveal at the end of Multiversity #2, and it's when you see The Empty Hand in full. On his forehead, there's the same logo that's on Ultra Comics' chest. And we know from Ultra Comics -the comic itself, not the character of the same name, try and keep up- that You are Ultra Comics. You are the Empty Hand. You're the Oblivion Machine.
There's multiple signs pointing to that, starting with the most obious one : the very thing giving the entire comic its forward momentum, in a very concrete sense, is your hand. And since it's turning a page, or sliding it off the iPad screen, it's not holding anything. It's empty. Literally. It's your empty hand causing all of this.
Less obvious, but it was the thing that illuminated it for me, from Pax Americana : that final moment, in the interrogation room, when the Peacemaker literally points at You when asked who he's trying to save the world from. It's a panel that works on multiple levels, like much of Pax.
(Which, by the way, I have a completely new interpretation on now: I think Earth-4 is not the world least corrupted by the Gentry, but in fact the exact opposite. It's where the Gentry's victory is the most total.)
(While we're on the topic of Pax, fun link : the massless time-symmetrical boson Captain Atom is referring to is page 12 and 13. Page 12 of Ultra Comics is when Ultra Comics comes alive. It's not just the godly spread blending three timelines. NEAT!)
But so, the Gentry: they work for the Empty Hand. So, for You. That's the Big Idea: they're not a group, as much as they are a metaphor for a process. And that process is consuming stories, turning them into ideas, remaking them through your own interpretation of facts, MUCH LIKE WHAT I AM DOING RIGHT NOW. You can see individual members of the Gentry as aspects of that process, like Intellectron, breaking down stories into something far smaller, points about fiction itself, pure ideas.
It's an entirely destructive process, as shown by the reveal of Multiverse-2's demise, and by the end of Ultra Comics. When you close a book, when you put it down, you kill that universe, if only until you pick it back up again. It's a big and ugly Oblivion Machine. But, in the same way Intellectron is defeated by virtue of being a character in Ultra Comics, the Gentry and the Empty Hand bring about their own destruction.
Because through the destructive process that is reading, we give the stories power, we let them become something bigger, something inspiring, heroic, greater than ourselves. Through stories, we created bad, to have it defeated by good. As repeated often in the series : The Door Has One Side, And Opens Both Ways.
The curse of Ultra Comics, the thing that made every character reading it go mad, is that it makes that whole idea transparent. It shows your potential as creator and destroyer, and it's a fucking lot to handle: The Atom's spirits get shattered, Alexis Luthor goes power-mad, Captain Atom leaves the universe, to name examples.
In the end, Nix gets the rent money because we need him to. Because the process is always going to perpetuate itself, which is what's wonderful about it. That's what The Multiversity is about, how we make the world run on stories. It's literally the same thing he's said before, but bigger, all-encompassing, taking the entire history of DC to do so.
whatsinaname
Member
I personally agree with what you are saying about Flex Mentallo. I read it recently and posted impressions in this thread that it didn't click with me.
But do you feel that a narration of that type will never work? I feel that it can actually be done well and has been.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Ask for money.Don't even know what to say. Seriously.
Edit : Hey busaiku I used the first code you posted. It's pretty cool looking. It gives you the first issue of cap, Hawkeye, black widow, hulk and Superior Iron man and some Scarlet Witch comic.
Thanks
- Status