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Crafting: For or Against?
- Thread starter jtb
- Start date
tiebreaker
Member
Not a fan. Probably my least favourite part of Horizon. At least it is streamlined, unlike many RPGs.
Fancy Clown
Member
Yup. This is why The Last of Us succeeded with its crafting. Really quick and easy to do, things share ingredients so you have to choose to make a health kit or molotov, and scavenging for the stuff makes perfect sense for the narrative and world.
LordKasual
Banned
Final Fantasy XIV is the only game in existence where i've enjoyed its crafting system, because it's more than just an afterthought and is pretty fleshed out.
Unfortunately, even XIV's crafting system suffers because the developers can't allow it to undermine raid/dungeon gear. So it's another one of those situations where it's only worth doing if you're an endgame crafter.
Crafting systems in 98% of games are garbage though. In MMOs they primarily seem to be there to bloat your inventory and break your shit so that you'll be tempted to buy protection/success scrolls or whatever form of RNG buffer the game offers you.
In games that aren't MMOs, they're usually just tedious, and offer the exact same problem (inventory bloat) ,except without the ability to pay and make it not suck.
Unfortunately, even XIV's crafting system suffers because the developers can't allow it to undermine raid/dungeon gear. So it's another one of those situations where it's only worth doing if you're an endgame crafter.
Crafting systems in 98% of games are garbage though. In MMOs they primarily seem to be there to bloat your inventory and break your shit so that you'll be tempted to buy protection/success scrolls or whatever form of RNG buffer the game offers you.
In games that aren't MMOs, they're usually just tedious, and offer the exact same problem (inventory bloat) ,except without the ability to pay and make it not suck.
Neoleo2143
Member
It's because many games pare the actual act of crafting into something rigid and inflexible. There's nothing to really learn. You just toss ingredients the way the game tells you. There's rules but these rules are inflexible in implementation and therefore dull in the vast amounts of non linear experiences which thrive on the number of rules that the player must learn and use. At least in a linear experience, Crafting serves as a means to express some player choice within resource conservation.
More_Badass
Member
Depends. Horizon and Last of Us do it well. It's fun in Minecraft, Subnautica, and The Long Dark
Sucks in mostly everything else
Sucks in mostly everything else
So much against, it usually results in a bloated inventory on top of already limited inventory space which means your stuck managing resources in a menu instead of playing the game which gives you the bloated inventory in the first place. Seriously, crafting sucks.
TheMissingLink
Member
If a game has any type of crafting system, I immediately stop following it/looking into it/etc.
To me, crafting = time sink and I have a very limited amount of time to game with kids+career.
To me, crafting = time sink and I have a very limited amount of time to game with kids+career.
I don't disagree. I think if a game includes crafting, unless it's a survival game like Fallout, crafting materials should absolutely not take up any inventory space/weight.
wipeout364
Member
I don't mind it if it is kind of the point of the game like Don't Starve, Minecraft, dragon quest builders etc. what Ireally don't like though is crafting on top of a ton of other shit to do like they do in RPG's, in MMO I can sort of see it as it extends the game and keeps you playing. But in most cases I could do without it.
prag16
Banned
Entirely depends on how it is done.
TLoU handled it reasonably well. It's okay in Horizon. Games just have to make sure it doesn't feel pointless, onerous, or laborious. In these two games it's pretty streamlined (especially in TLoU). But otherwise no thanks.
Did you dismiss TLoU and Horizon out of hand due to this?
TLoU handled it reasonably well. It's okay in Horizon. Games just have to make sure it doesn't feel pointless, onerous, or laborious. In these two games it's pretty streamlined (especially in TLoU). But otherwise no thanks.
Did you dismiss TLoU and Horizon out of hand due to this?
Vital Tundra
Member
Shoot thanks for the info!
FrozenCell
Member
Huh, I'm the exact opposite, and I'm having a hard time understanding your position.
I generally hate crafting because it's a lot of busywork. You get hundreds of parts of items that you need to individually pick up and then over time put together to get e.g. a potion. Just give me a fully formed potion, at the end. Don't waste my time with pointless manual labor if the end result is already known beforehand.
With the cooking in Zelda I at least like that there is some creativity to it. You have to think beforehand which ingredients would go together and then there seems to be at least a hundred different possible outcomes, where creative combinations get rewarded. Maybe it's because I like cooking myself, but I find it infinitely more rewarding than '[horn] you need two more sheets of paper'.
I mean yeah there was some autonomy in TLoU, but only very little and would it really have been much worse from a gameplay standpoint if you just scavenged the working parts?
Now if only it could be sped up a bit.
What about TloU do you prefer over Zelda?
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
I like it in Minecraft. And games where it makes sense I guess, though I only have Minecraft. I know it's in Don't Starve, which I also have but don't understand how to play at all, and I think Stardew Valley?
I don't mind it. But it's not a game seller or deal breaker for me.
Is there a difference between Crafting like Minecraft and Alchemy like Dragon Quest VIII? (I loved Alchemy in DQ)
I don't mind it. But it's not a game seller or deal breaker for me.
Is there a difference between Crafting like Minecraft and Alchemy like Dragon Quest VIII? (I loved Alchemy in DQ)
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Thanks for writing this out. I haven't been cooking nearly as much as I could have, but this makes it seem easier than I thought it was.
Question though: When you want to boost elixirs, do you add more of 4 or more of 5?
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
The F2P game Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes requires crafting of hundreds of items to create one item to equip later in the game. It's so infuriating and if you don't have self-control you may end up spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to expedite this process, otherwise you are looking at several months of work just to get all of the craft items to max out one single character.
Jawmuncher
Member
Against. 99% of the time it's just busy work.
sabertoothzombie
Member
Against. I don't like having to hunt for resources to make ammo, health items, etc. Personal quip, but I can see the appeal for people that want a more immersive experience.
I agree and disagree with this. It's definitely my least favorite part of Horizon, but mainly because it doesn't need to be there at all. There's no advantage gained by crafting, it just serves as an unnecessary grind. I have a lot of issues with the cooking in Zelda, but at least I can feel like I'm actually creating a strategic advantage with it and part of that is because it requires me to think at least a little bit.
Which is a shame, because the core gameplay in Horizon is so, so good. I was going to jump in last night and do some trials for a few minutes (which was all I had). I was out of wire though. My options were to either go farm resources, or go to a vendor and buy a bunch of wire (one at a time mind you...they at least need a buy multiple option). That isn't fun, it isn't challenging and it doesn't reward me in some way for being creative or thoughtful when I craft.
I guess some questions that help me tell a good crafting system from a bad one. Does crafting give me some advantage I wouldn't have had otherwise? Is the crafting itself fun or challenging (like, say EQ2 or the Atelier series)? Is there any strategy or creativity involved in the crafting system itself (i.e. is the crafting process actually a fun mini game on its own)?
I guess ultimately, I need to know if the crafting adds something unique or fun to the game that couldn't have existed without it. If the answer is no, then I tend to think they added it in as an artificial way to increase the difficulty, or as another mechanic they could list as a selling point.
All that said, it does seem like crafting is getting thrown into a lot of games now that wouldn't have had it 10 years ago (similar to how "RPG elements" started getting thrown into every genre and every game had XP and levels). I will say that if the next Hitman has you crafting your ammo and/or outfits, we've gone too far
Last of Us is GOAT tier crafting. You barely get supplies and what you do get crafts multiple things. It's done in real time so no pausing you better be prepared. The supplies are so scarce that you best not waste it. It all lends a hand in creating a very tense game.
Horizon and most open worlds, it's just everywhere so you're hammering the button without a care. Witcher, at least, only required you to craft a potion once.
Horizon and most open worlds, it's just everywhere so you're hammering the button without a care. Witcher, at least, only required you to craft a potion once.
Coinspinner
Member
Hate it.
Open box, find equipment, be happy.
Open box, find ingredient, gee, I have 1/5th of a new piece of equipment that I may never find the other pieces for. It will nag at me until I do, and anything I found that isn't related to making that item will frustrate me.
The interesting part of consumables (potions, etc.) to me is selecting the appropriate ones, not scouring the world for crickets and butterflies to make them.
I'll just never get the appeal.
Open box, find equipment, be happy.
Open box, find ingredient, gee, I have 1/5th of a new piece of equipment that I may never find the other pieces for. It will nag at me until I do, and anything I found that isn't related to making that item will frustrate me.
The interesting part of consumables (potions, etc.) to me is selecting the appropriate ones, not scouring the world for crickets and butterflies to make them.
I'll just never get the appeal.
phant0m
Member
I don't mind crafting arrows and bombs in Horizon. It's very fast via the quick menu and resources are bountiful. I like cooking in Breath of the Wild, but wish the effects (cold resistance, etc) lasted like a full in-game day or something. I always feel like I'm forced to rush so I don't lose the buff, which sucks in a game so focused on discovery and exploration. I also wish you had a permanent recipe book.
I didn't bother at all with the crafting in Witcher 3.
I didn't bother at all with the crafting in Witcher 3.
br0ken_shad0w
Member
Star Wars Galaxies is still the GOAT.
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
I generally hate it. I don't like foraging around for materials. I especially don't like having piles of nearly-identical equipment with boring random attributes like "+3% fire resistance" to sort through.
LinkSlayer64
Member
I believe more of 4 means a possibly higher level effect, whereas 5 extends the duration of the effect.
Septimus Prime
Member
Against. I'm okay with how it's done in Horizon (because it's really easy), The Last of Us (because you're supposed to be limited on your supplies, and it's also easy), and FFXV (where Ignis just knows the recipehs once you have the proper ingredients). I especially hate systems where you have to figure out how everything works yourself, as well as systems where crafting can fail.
BotW isn't too, too bad so far, since all the weapons are procured on site, and I'd rather just die and respawn at the last checkpoint than cook stuff.
BotW isn't too, too bad so far, since all the weapons are procured on site, and I'd rather just die and respawn at the last checkpoint than cook stuff.
Crafting as a gating mechanic for expanded inventory or what-have-you is garbage. Basically the crafting system in the newer Far Cry games is the worst and I hate it.
Crafting that lets you explore different combinations of consumables to generate different things is great. Basically the crafting system in BotW is amazing.
TLOU is a good crafting system as well because it's quick, efficient, powerful at times, but not necessary.
Crafting that lets you explore different combinations of consumables to generate different things is great. Basically the crafting system in BotW is amazing.
TLOU is a good crafting system as well because it's quick, efficient, powerful at times, but not necessary.
The cooking in Zelda is great precisely because you can't do it everywhere. I don't have the strongest willpower, so if BotW let me cook anywhere, I know I'd ruin the pacing by making a new meal every time I got a new thing off of the ground.
Turns out, limiting something makes it more meaningful. Who knew?
I don't think I've ever enjoyed it in a game. I think I'd like it more if it's instanteous and can be done from anywhere. Zelda is okay because you can make lots of things using different ingredients but searching for one particular ingredient sucks so much. Blah.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Crafting was probably the best part of Star Wars Galaxies, One of the reasons I'm keeping an eye on Crowfall.
Having a MWS char and gaining a good server-wide reputation for quality was something else.
Having a MWS char and gaining a good server-wide reputation for quality was something else.
GodParticle
Member
Most of the time it feels like work. Even worse is in games like BOTW where you have so many damn ingredients that it all just becomes annoying to keep track of. I usually don't even use it unless it's a requirement of some kind
Oh, another thing I despise is crafting weapons/armor. It takes all the fun out of finding some random drop when you can just gather X ingredients and make whatever
Oh, another thing I despise is crafting weapons/armor. It takes all the fun out of finding some random drop when you can just gather X ingredients and make whatever
SerTapTap
Member
It's been abused to death. I'm mostly okay with it in Horizon, but it still manages to have the problem of rare drops in extremely unfun circumstances (animal skins) and no quick way to solve that issue.
Crafting should be simple, transparent and never require extreme grind. I really don't like the monster hunter mindset for it.
Something horizon does really well is for the most part, enemies share most of the more important resources. Having to kill specific things more than once to get stuff gets old real fast.
Crafting should be simple, transparent and never require extreme grind. I really don't like the monster hunter mindset for it.
Something horizon does really well is for the most part, enemies share most of the more important resources. Having to kill specific things more than once to get stuff gets old real fast.
ThEoRy...
Member
It has good and bad points. In Phantasy Star Universe you would have to find the board, then find the materials and bake it with your partner robot. For higher rarity weapons obviously the drop rates on boards were low. Some boards required ridiculous amounts of rare materials. So now you're grinding for boards and materials. For example the Psyche Wand required 10 diads. The demand of course drives the prices way up in the player markets too. Diads cost over a million each. So if you're lucky enough to find the board and grind enough to get all the materials you can now synthesize the weapon. Two more problems though. It takes 12 hours to synth and there is a high percentage failure rate. So now you have to wait and see if you are even successful. The good part is that when you are successful it is one of the most rewarding feelings you can have in a game. I remember when I synthed my first Psycho Wand it was like, YES! Finally! Then you get to rip up the game with your new found power.
In future updates they rebalanced things like increasing the success rates and increased drop rates during special events. While that was great and all it reduced the uniqueness of the weapons. At that point everyone had them. And of course the value dropped as well. Then it became a matter of grinding the weapons up to +10. Don't get me started on grinding.
In future updates they rebalanced things like increasing the success rates and increased drop rates during special events. While that was great and all it reduced the uniqueness of the weapons. At that point everyone had them. And of course the value dropped as well. Then it became a matter of grinding the weapons up to +10. Don't get me started on grinding.
Vital Tundra
Member
That's a good point. Most places you can cook are just bonfires which means less potent meals, and the stove tops are even more rare. Makes it so the downtime isn't spent in Menzies most of the game.
Septimus Prime
Member
Yeah, I agree. At best it doesn't get in your way too much. But why do we need this shit in our way in the first place?
sugarhigh4242
Banned
Yeah, I generally don't like crafting in RPGs. It feels like a total waste of time in Bethesda games. But it's good in Last of Us. It's also really good in Horizon where herbs can be used immediately as a basic health regen, and most common things can be crafted with 2 buttons.
ScatheZombie
Member
Crafting is one of, if not the, worst game mechanics that everyone still thinks they should have.
I say this as someone who was literally a crafting developer for two different MMOs.
I say this as someone who was literally a crafting developer for two different MMOs.