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[Vagabundo]

I'm sure that's not unexpensive, but a small fraction of, say, the cost of the Gamestop infrastructure.

Besides, Gabe Newell himself came to tell us how amazingly high are the economical returns of his business, how he can still manage to make sure his workers aren't ever under stress, how he manages to keep more or less the same team, how he managed to stay indipendent and so on.

Let's admit it: Steam is brilliant. It was a great idea, and a simple one, and Valve is swimming in money because of it. More power to them. But they're admitting (probably because they are devs, and make a comparison between the ordeal of creating something like Half Life 2 and running a digital distribution service) that it prints money.

I'm sure they do make a good return on steam, but what's your point? A good return could be 1-2% of the 30% they take, they are not a huge company.

Are you saying they they should be offering 29.5% instead of 30%? That would undercut the other DD services, who may not be able to offer that cut: why that's anti-competitive and abuse of a monopoly position I hear you cry.

Gamestop funds itself by pushing second hand games that take a lot from the publishers. Are you advocating that? The pubs get 0% instead of 70%?

 

[VisanidethDM]

At least $100 million in profit.

Steam is more profitable per employee than Apple or Google.

Apple makes $419k per employee.

Valve has around 260 employees.

But remember, they're doing it for you, and keeping prices as low as they can.

Spoiler

Lol

.

This stuff is why I love Steam. I'm a businessman. Steam is an amazing business. It's genius, it prints money, and I'm glad smart people are getting rich. But this paladins-of-the-PC-gamer bullshit is ridicolous.

 

[VisanidethDM]

I'm sure they do make a good return on steam, but what's your point? A good return could be 1-2% of the 30% they take, they are not a huge company.

Are you saying they they should be offering 29.5% instead of 30%? That would undercut the other DD services, who may not be able to offer that cut: why that's anti-competitive and abuse of a monopoly position I hear you cry.

Gamestop funds itself by pushing second hand games that take a lot from the publishers. Are you advocating that? The pubs get 0% instead of 70%?

Read the post above. You probably don't know how obscenely profitable Steam is. 260 workers, making millions. They don't struggle, trust me.

How do they do so, when they probably sell a fraction of what Gamestop does?
Expenses + profit margins. Valve spends little and earns a ton on each sale.

 

[szaromir]

I'm serious, I dislike all of those services including Steam.

Fixed for me.

Considering that there are several other DD services out there (and I already use almost all of them, including EA's) to choose from and also taking in to consideration Valve's past and current actions on the DD space I'm not worried that the biggest digital store is not a neutral party. If and when Steam tries to screw me I will use another source to buy my games.

That's great. You're a reasonable person even if we disagree on some matters.

 

[The Technomancer]

But remember, they're doing it for you, and keeping prices as low as they can.

Spoiler

Lol

.

This stuff is why I love Steam. I'm a businessman. Steam is an amazing business. It's genius, it prints money, and I'm glad smart people are getting rich. But this paladins-of-the-PC-gamer bullshit is ridicolous.

Well they are. There's no reason they can't be both. The hit on an absolution brilliant strategy (sarcasm): "offer your customers a compelling service with great features, continually update it and work with publishers to offer great deals, and people will give you lots and lots of money because people like those things".
Shocking I know. I mean, I don't even know how they can pull a profit without offering retailer exclusive DLC on their games or limiting the number of installs or demanding that their customers be constantly connected to the internet. How do they scrape by?

Basically I would call them "Paladins of the PC gamer" because they know that treating PC gamers like kings makes you a looooot of money.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Gamestop funds itself by pushing second hand games that take a lot from the publishers. Are you advocating that? The pubs get 0% instead of 70%?

Small thing on this: I've been ranting against Gamestop before. Yes, it's infinitely worse than Steam, also because Steam is a perfectly honest business, while I argue that Gamestop is breaking fair competition. I'm with you on that, but it's apples to oranges.

Steam is a positive element for the industry, with a potentially excessive power. Gamestop is not compatible with the industry on the long run, imho.

 

[HK-47]

But remember, they're doing it for you, and keeping prices as low as they can.

Spoiler

Lol

.

This stuff is why I love Steam. I'm a businessman. Steam is an amazing business. It's genius, it prints money, and I'm glad smart people are getting rich. But this paladins-of-the-PC-gamer bullshit is ridicolous.

they arent do for us, but the way they are doing it for themselves has huge benefits for me.

 

[Vagabundo]

But remember, they're doing it for you, and keeping prices as low as they can.

Spoiler

Lol

.

This stuff is why I love Steam. I'm a businessman. Steam is an amazing business. It's genius, it prints money, and I'm glad smart people are getting rich. But this paladins-of-the-PC-gamer bullshit is ridicolous.

I asked you this before, why cant they be both? Maybe they see it as very good business to treat their customers right and maybe they just love PC gaming and games. A lot of them are gamers themselves so seeing the best products out there is only natural if you are passionate about what you do. Gabe doesn't need the money, he chooses to do this because he likes it. He wants to do PC games.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Well they are. There's no reason they can't be both. The hit on an absolution brilliant strategy (sarcasm): "offer your customers a compelling service with great features, continually update it and work with publishers to offer great deals, and people will give you lots and lots of money because people like those things".
Shocking I know. I mean, I don't even know how they can pull a profit without offering retailer exclusive DLC on their games or limiting the number of installs or demanding that their customers be constantly connected to the internet. How do they scrape by?

And I'm not condemning Valve for it. They have a quality service. I'm totally fine with it.

But this idea that Valve is "generous" when they're the people charging the most on each sold copy (proportional to their expenses) or simply having the best returns is ridicolous. I'm not asking Valve to lower prices simply because they could (it would be fucking stupid), but people here is acting like they would instantly.

 

[Omikaru]

But remember, they're doing it for you, and keeping prices as low as they can.

Spoiler

Lol

.

This stuff is why I love Steam. I'm a businessman. Steam is an amazing business. It's genius, it prints money, and I'm glad smart people are getting rich. But this paladins-of-the-PC-gamer bullshit is ridicolous.

I think one of the pillars of Steam's success is looking after their customers. Who'd have thought that you could make good business out of not screwing them over!

 

[VisanidethDM]

they arent do for us, but the way they are doing it for themselves has huge benefits for me.

I agreed with this... some 3 pages ago I think. I reap the benefits too. I simply argued that since Valve is making this kind of money due to no competition (because there's a middle ground between "getting enough money" and "being more profitable per worker than Apple"), with more competition we could get DD companies that aren't goldmines like Steam has been so far and lower prices for customers.

While here it's "Steam or no buy". It's nonsense, to me. What do I owe to Valve?

 

[VisanidethDM]

He wants to do PC games.

Obligatory something something Episode 3 something.

I think he candidly admitted that right now he's sort of enjoying the money.

 

[Echoplx]

And I'm not condemning Valve for it. They have a quality service. I'm totally fine with it.

But this idea that Valve is "generous" when they're the people charging the most on each sold copy (proportional to their expenses) or simply having the best returns is ridicolous. I'm not asking Valve to lower prices simply because they could (it would be fucking stupid), but people here is acting like they would instantly.

Um

According to Forbes, publishers earn a gross margin of around 70 per cent on Steam compared with 30 per cent via retail shops.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-14-steam-owns-half-pc-download-market

You actually got a source at all?

 

[OmegaDragon]

See the graph.

Now tell me Valve is doing double the work of physical retailers, or basically the work that sums up to 30% of that graph.

You said

Not to mention that one of the reasons why PC gaming is so unattractive to these giants is also the fact that they're paying more for distribution on digital channels than at physical retail.

Well, based on sources, DD doesnt cost pubs more and physical retail. They get a higher cut per game.

 

[stuminus3]

Huh... I just realised I can use the CD keys for most of the recent EA games I've purchased on Steam and register them on Origin. That's kind of neat. I wish Microsoft would let you do that with GFWL games. Is this an Origin thing or have I always been able to do that?

 

[bengraven]

I can't seem to find the answer, so sorry if it's been asked:

What does this mean for GOG and their new deal with EA?

 

[Fredescu]

with more competition we could get DD companies that aren't goldmines like Steam has been so far and lower prices for customers.

More DD competition isn't going to do anything at all for prices while the retailers force the publishers hand. As you've seen, every game on Origin in my country is $80. It's only further dominiance of DD over retail that is going to bring prices down for the consumer. Not more bit players fragmenting the market.

While here it's "Steam or no buy". It's nonsense, to me. What do I owe to Valve?

Totally agree with this by the way. Buy from whoever gives you the best deal.

 

[venne]

It must come from a love of this kind of community somehow. Yeah, it all ends up being money in the end, and maybe Newell is so shrewd that he's a master at appearing friendly and caring or something. It just not common to have employees and consumers both treated with the respect Valve does. And the benefits are obvious: they make great games with their staff, and we will fight to the death over our love for their games and services. So clearly, mutual respect has been very profitable for Valve. But it is not at all what almost every corporate entity does to make money.

Little known fact: you can use a company's products and services without emotional attachment to said company.

 

[Metal-Geo]

Does this mean I can transfer Mirror's Edge to Origin and finally be able to play those time attack maps?

 

[sflufan]

I can't seem to find the answer, so sorry if it's been asked:

What does this mean for GOG and their new deal with EA?

Absolutely nothing.

 

[scorpscarx]

People with more than 100 or so games on Steam gave in to digital distribution ages ago, so the fight is not with that vs retail anymore. We see these other services as nothing more than annoyances with inferior services in almost every single way. I don't mind there being a different service for every publisher and multiple stores because I am completely sure that Steam will continue to innovate and improve, leaving them all in the dust like they have for the last 6 years.

 

[Nirolak]

I can't seem to find the answer, so sorry if it's been asked:

What does this mean for GOG and their new deal with EA?

Here's the closest thing they've made to a statement.

EA confirms more platform exclusives for Origin

Electronic Arts has confirmed that it will release more titles digitally exclusive to its Origin service, as well as offer unique content for games sold via Origin to distinguish them from releases on competing services.

However, the aggressive move isn't a sign EA is ready to ditch its other digital partners such as Direct2Drive and Impulse, as it still intends to reach the widest audience possible through other retailers.

"We are going to continue to be great partners for our retail channel partners as they evolve their business models to account for digital," Frank Gibeau, president of EA Games, told GamesIndustry.biz.

"But at the same time you talk about platform exclusives like Halo or Uncharted, EA's going to have some of our own platform exclusives."

The publisher has already confirmed forthcoming MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic will only be available digitally from Origin, with Gibeau admitting it's using the Bioware title to attract new consumers to the rebooted service.

"In the case of Star Wars we're trying to build an audience for Origin. And it's also an opportunity for us to better manage the downloads and how we bring people over from the beta and that sort of thing. For a lot of reasons it made sense for an MMO, which is a highly complex deployment.

"I think long-term you'll see we believe in reach so we will have other digital retailers for out products because we want to reach as many audiences as possible.

"But at the same time if we can use exclusive content or other ideas to help grow our audience then we're going to do that because we're growing a platform," added Gibeau.

The recently released Crysis 2 has been removed from Valve's Steam service, and other PC versions of titles including Alice: Madness Returns are being positioned as "only on Origin" on the official website.

But EA wants to get across the message that Origin is more than a retail site, and will evolve with community features borne from the company's history in games creation.

"For us it's really about, we're the worldwide leader in packaged goods publishing, we'd like to be the worldwide leader in digital publishing.

"And we think that EA has unique strengths there related to what we can do with our content, because we're a content creator as well as a retailer in this business. But in general it's not just a retail site, it's a community, it's a platform, it has traits much like you see with Steam or PSN or Xbox Live, but it's unique to EA.

Source: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-06-15-ea-confirms-more-platform-exclusives-for-origin

 

[Fredescu]

Is this an Origin thing or have I always been able to do that?

You've been able to do that prior to the Origin rebranding, but it was only relatively recent.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

I agreed with this... some 3 pages ago I think. I reap the benefits too. I simply argued that since Valve is making this kind of money due to no competition (because there's a middle ground between "getting enough money" and "being more profitable per worker than Apple"), with more competition we could get DD companies that aren't goldmines like Steam has been so far and lower prices for customers.

While here it's "Steam or no buy". It's nonsense, to me. What do I owe to Valve?

What's stopping D2D, or Gamersgate, or Impules, or Amazon from lowering their own cut, thus lowering prices? Valve is doing nothing to restrict prices on competing services.

I agree with your stance on 30% maybe being an excessive cut, and of course I'd be happy for Valve to lead the way and drop it to say 20-25%, but 30% seems to be an industry standard atm, and out of all the third party DD services Valve offer arguably the greatest value to publishers.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

VisanidethDM,

I agree with you that Valve isn't doing anything for the customer that doesn't benefit them 10x fold. Like you said, they're a business and the first priority of any business is to make a profit. To have more money come in than goes out and Valve has done superb at that. I don't think Valve cares about me as an individual, that would be moronic. They care about me as a customer who they depend on to make it rich. Well, me in combination with millions of others.

With that being said, I benefit as a gamer GREATLY from that. I use to be an idiot and buy new releases on Steam. I refuse to now and will just wait for their amazing sales. I also have enjoyed their continual upgrades to Steam itself over the years with no charges to me as a user. As much as I can trust a company, I trust Valve. I have spent a lot of money with them over the years for that reason.

My 'faithfulness' (which isn't all that accurate of a word to use here) to Steam is based on that, the fact that I prefer my purchases to be under one roof (I buy from Battlenet, GoG as well), and the features that Steam offers. I don't even trust EA to value me as a customer like I do Valve. Why? Because over the years they have given me reason not to while Valve has yet to do that. Whether it was charging to redownload my game (the policy existed), customer service right up there with Valve (horrible), basically giving the middle finger to the PC market multiple times, putting out shitastic ports of games I would've enjoyed, the message board debacle, and more. This is why I refuse to place my money on any service run by EA. When Valve gives me the same reasons I will cease buying from them

 

[ghst]

Um

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-14-steam-owns-half-pc-download-market

You actually got a source at all?

this is another point that has yet to be made, steam prices on release are frequently undercut by retail. that huge chunk of ea's prospective customer base who would have bought bf3 from steam aren't going to bee-line for origin, they're going to go back to whichever loss-leading supermarket/tax-haven mail order store they used to use.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Um

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-14-steam-owns-half-pc-download-market

You actually got a source at all?

This bit:

According to Forbes, publishers earn a gross margin of around 70 per cent on Steam compared with 30 per cent via retail shops.

may have something to do with the average price of games on Steam which, incidentally, isn't 60$.
Besides, you're not considering the point that I was making which is that publishers are definitely happier spending X money on retail/distribution/ etc than giving X money on competitors. Also, reading the Forbes article, it seems like they got their 70% share by simply removing the 30% Steam takes, which strikes me as somewhat hazardous. The 30% figure is also puzzling. Pubs get between 25 and 30$ at retail, which is basically 50%.
The magic number for pubs is, historically, 27$ at retail. If the 30% figure was correct, games should cost 90$.
Something doesn't really work here.

 

[Solid warrior]

valve's steam is steaming. never thought that ea would do this.

 

[Vagabundo]

I agreed with this... some 3 pages ago I think. I reap the benefits too. I simply argued that since Valve is making this kind of money due to no competition (because there's a middle ground between "getting enough money" and "being more profitable per worker than Apple"), with more competition we could get DD companies that aren't goldmines like Steam has been so far and lower prices for customers.

While here it's "Steam or no buy". It's nonsense, to me. What do I owe to Valve?

There are already other DD services out there, what's stopping them from offering lower prices? Valve has no control over what they charge.

 

[AEREC]

Huh... I just realised I can use the CD keys for most of the recent EA games I've purchased on Steam and register them on Origin. That's kind of neat. I wish Microsoft would let you do that with GFWL games. Is this an Origin thing or have I always been able to do that?

That is kind of cool, but a little pointless unless they retro add origin exclusive features (achievements).

For now, Ill just keep my copies of Mass Effect 1 and 2, Shift 2, Dragon age, Battlefield, Medal of Honor on Steam.

I honestly don't mind origin too much, installed it for the first time yesterday and if it works the same way as Steam then it will be good competition.

EA does have enough high quality franchises and titles to start there own console/service.

 

[VisanidethDM]

this is another point that has yet to be made, steam prices on release are frequently undercut by retail. that huge chunk of ea's prospective customer base who would have bought bf3 from steam aren't going to bee-line for origin, they're going to go back to whichever loss-leading supermarket/tax-haven mail order store they used to use.

Yes, this is an important factor to consider. Which is why I really doubt EA is so crazy that they'll simply put BF3 on their store for 60$, unless the entire point is hurting Steam, not promoting Origins.

 

[Chavelo]

Dang... I really don't mind competitors trying to grab a piece of that pie, and if EA had some cool "Origin"-only features like preorder stuff or prices or whatever, I wouldn't mind buying it from there... Hopefully they'll have a good reason to buy from there instead of just "WE HAVE THE GAME FOR FULL PRICE, dealwithit.jpg"

 

[VisanidethDM]

What's stopping D2D, or Gamersgate, or Impules, or Amazon from lowering their own cut, thus lowering prices? Valve is doing nothing to restrict prices on competing services.

I agree with your stance on 30% maybe being an excessive cut, and of course I'd be happy for Valve to lead the way and drop it to say 20-25%, but 30% seems to be an industry standard atm, and out of all the third party DD services Valve offer arguably the greatest value to publishers.

Guess for the same reasons EA isn't dropping prices on their stores... customers are apparently happy to pay that much. It's all business.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Yes, this is an important factor to consider. Which is why I really doubt EA is so crazy that they'll simply put BF3 on their store for 60$, unless the entire point is hurting Steam, not promoting Origins.

Well it is on their store, and it is $60.

 

[bloodydrake]

Totally agree with this by the way. Buy from whoever gives you the best deal.

I'm cool with this IF the place I purchace doesn't force me to log into a sepereate service for friendslists chat DRM exclusive to that publisher..if I do I don't want it.

Offer a global platform for community features that all publishers can use(like steam does)
or sell it without requiring all that stuff(like D2D does) and i'll objectively consider your platform.

The current plan warrants disdain and suspicion.


For those that ask..what do I owe Valve?

Valve has shown that they as a company are worthy of your trust as a market leader for almost 8 years.
They've shown vision,growth, commitment to Pc gaming. And along the way they've proven that they can be profitably without abusing the consumers faith or their wallet in that position.

EA has done nothing to show they can compete this way. Their commitment is to maximize profits to their shareholders...often at the consumers expense. They've shown they will disable older versions of their games so they can force people to buy incremental yearly iterations of their games. Their purpose is to benifit themselves..not to benefit themselves and the community.

 

[scorpscarx]

Yes, this is an important factor to consider. Which is why I really doubt EA is so crazy that they'll simply put BF3 on their store for 60$, unless the entire point is hurting Steam, not promoting Origins.

That's exactly what they are doing.

 

[Campster]

There are already other DD services out there, what's stopping them from offering lower prices? Valve has no control over what they charge.

Volume. Steam has massive, massive volume. These crazy deals have only been around for about two years, post Orange Box.

There is no way that Impulse or DD can decide to sell big games for pennies on the dollar and make any money.

 

[Fredescu]

I'm cool with this IF the place I purchace doesn't force me to log into a sepereate service for friendslists chat DRM exclusive to that publisher..if I do I don't want it.

No Blizzard games for you I guess? I don't mind managing multiple friendlists and services and such. I don't see the problem.

 

[Vagabundo]

Volume. Steam has massive, massive volume. These crazy deals have only been around for about two years, post Orange Box.

There is no way that Impulse or DD can decide to sell big games for pennies on the dollar and make any money.

I agree and if Valve dropped the 30% markup and lowered prices for customers it would hurt the other services and, ironically, VisanidethDM would probably claim that they are abusing their monopoly.

 

[alstein]

Read the post above. You probably don't know how obscenely profitable Steam is. 260 workers, making millions. They don't struggle, trust me.

How do they do so, when they probably sell a fraction of what Gamestop does?
Expenses + profit margins. Valve spends little and earns a ton on each sale.

This is also why so many competitors were making good solid money with tiny shares of the pie. I'm just surprised that the price pressure hit the developers and not the DD portals.

What's stopping D2D, or Gamersgate, or Impules, or Amazon from lowering their own cut, thus lowering prices? Valve is doing nothing to restrict prices on competing services.

I agree with your stance on 30% maybe being an excessive cut, and of course I'd be happy for Valve to lead the way and drop it to say 20-25%, but 30% seems to be an industry standard atm, and out of all the third party DD services Valve offer arguably the greatest value to publishers.

They have. They sell Steamworks games where Steam's getting chunk of the money. This is lowering their cut, especially since they offer sales on top of this usually.

At least Impulse came up with a semi-plausible reason for changing their stance with the turnover, being that they want Steam to sell Reactor games in the future. (Then again, I doubt there will be too many Reactor games in the future with this EA announce- I'm sure Brad Wardell's happily using his Impulse money to buy a Subway while laughing at Gamestop for being chumps.)

 

[Fredescu]

Guess for the same reasons EA isn't dropping prices on their stores... customers are apparently happy to pay that much. It's all business.

DD prices are ultimately set by retailers. It has nothing to do with anyones cut. Until someone snubs them and goes their own way with pricing, it will stay that way.

 

[szaromir]

post

Your emotional attachment doesn't mean that everyone has to be OK with Valve forcing you to create yet another account and install yet another DRM app if you want to buy their games. Your assumption that everyone wants Steam in the first place and therefore Steam is in a priviliged position is wrong.

 

[desu]

So I tried figuring out if Origin has gifting ...

Tried to test buy BF3 ... well it tells me I am not allowed to buy the game between 6am and 11pm of the day. Hell thats awesome .

What I am really wondering is if BF3 will force you to have origin if you want to play it. Would be funny to start origin, then start the game and then log into your ea account for multiplayer ...

Will observe how this goes on but I guess I can spend the money I wanted to spend on Crysis 2 and Alice can now be spend on something different.

 

[scorpscarx]

Szaromir I have to really wonder how many PC games you play daily/weekly or If you simply browse Neogaf and the internet all day.

Steam is a great application in and of itself imo, it has more up time than my web browser.

 

[3rdman]

Fucking lol



http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-15-ea-origin-compares-to-xbl-psn-steam

I'll just leave this here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Paramount_Pictures,_Inc.

EA wants to control the creation of the game, own the companies that creates them, the publication of the game, and finally it's distribution.

The little wiggle they have is that they still provide the game to the consoles but if they decide that games like KOTOR online can only be done on the PC (as the article states), it's essentially illegal...I'm no lawyer though so I don't know if deregulation has made this law null and void but it's certainly unfair.

 

[Salacious Crumb]

I wonder how Crytek and DICE feel about this crap.

 

[bloodydrake]

Your emotional attachment doesn't mean that everyone has to be OK with Valve forcing you to create yet another account and install yet another DRM app if you want to buy their games. Your assumption that everyone wants Steam in the first place and therefore Steam is in a priviliged position is wrong.

You make no sense I trust valve due to their history.. I don't trust EA due to theirs. You can try and dismiss this as a bullshit emotional attachment,but its not, its a proven track record of business practices that garners loyalty.

I'm fine with all the other DD services that sell games.

I'm not interested in a publisher forced exclusive community as EA is proposing.

IF valve made Steam Valve exclusive published games I'd be dead set against them as well.

 

[morningbus]

EA, when Activision is treating its customers better than you are, you need to take a good long hard look in the mirror.

 

[SmokyDave]

Szaromir I have to really wonder how many PC games you play daily/weekly or If you simply browse Neogaf and the internet all day.

Steam is a great application in and of itself imo, it has more up time than my web browser.

Same, I'm at work at the moment but I'm using Steam chat to organise a poker night with my mates for later on. It's just so damned handy

 

[szaromir]

Szaromir I have to really wonder how many PC games you play daily/weekly or If you simply browse Neogaf and the internet all day.

Steam is a great application in and of itself imo, it has more up time than my web browser.

LOL that depends. I had a Steam ranking '10' at some point in May. I probably should stop posting here for now and enjoy the afternoon though.

You make no sense I trust valve due to their history.. I don't trust EA due to theirs. You can try and dismiss this as a bullshit emotional attachment,but its not, its a proven track record of business practices that garners loyalty.

I'm fine with all the other DD services that sell games.

I'd prefer if Steam was an optional client, like GOG or something. Right now it feels more like a tool to squeeze more money out of my CC than something I really need.