KittenMaster
Member
I am aware of this. I am saying that if they're going down that route, it can be done well even if it will never top Dark Souls' greatness.
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Dark Souls III - E3 Demo Impressions
- Thread starter tcrunch
- Start date
So far, this sounds like the best of both worlds for me. Well, besides the useless kick, but maybe it will be made useful.
I hope the PvP works as well as DSII.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
I'm pro-bonfire warping. Wasting time running between different areas and having to avoid enemies just gets old after a while. I found myself much more likely to go back to an old area and re-explore it in DkS2 since I could just teleport exactly to the location I wanted.
Holy shit, 3 weapons for each hand and 4 rings coming back with DS1 movement?
god yes YES YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSUUUUU
FUCK YIS
Yep, sounds good to me. Building on DS1's core while including DS2's quality of life changes sounds like the best way to do it.
Now all we need to know is that there's proper covenants and hopefully invading doesn't feel too restricted.
Does DS1 movement mean I can't roll in any direction while I'm locked on? This is important because DSII was perfect for me.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I guess it refers to movement speed and sense of weight in the animations, rather than these other limitations. BB had roll in any direction.
Bloodborne's Yharnam is not nearly as well connected or well distributed as Lordran.
Check both game's maps
Only the Cathedral Ward is really connected to the rest of the areas, the actual central area of the game.
Meanwhile in Lordran every central area is connected to two or three other areas. I feel the only part I'd make more connected that'd make sense, would be a way to go from the Tomb of the Giants to the Demon Ruins.
And that's because when designing BB, they knew they would have the clutch of teleporting everywhere. When they took the handicap of not having teleport early in Dark 1, they were forced to make every area a gateway to each other. The only really "woah that's crazy" connection in Bloodborne is going from the Forest to Iosefka's, and well, maybe the location of the real workshop, but that is not really a connection, just a dead end.
Basically, early teleport let them get away with a simpler world design.
So it is not just a thing of saying "just don't use the teleport then". It makes the world design simpler.
Really hope they make good use of the 4 rings. DS2 didn't have a ring for walking in water (which was really necessary in DS1) or in the Abyss etc etc. Kind of made the four rings thing into overkill (at least some of them were forced for some of the covenants). Having four rings should mean switching them around all the time.
Check both game's maps
Only the Cathedral Ward is really connected to the rest of the areas, the actual central area of the game.
Meanwhile in Lordran every central area is connected to two or three other areas. I feel the only part I'd make more connected that'd make sense, would be a way to go from the Tomb of the Giants to the Demon Ruins.
And that's because when designing BB, they knew they would have the clutch of teleporting everywhere. When they took the handicap of not having teleport early in Dark 1, they were forced to make every area a gateway to each other. The only really "woah that's crazy" connection in Bloodborne is going from the Forest to Iosefka's, and well, maybe the location of the real workshop, but that is not really a connection, just a dead end.
Basically, early teleport let them get away with a simpler world design.
So it is not just a thing of saying "just don't use the teleport then". It makes the world design simpler.
Really hope they make good use of the 4 rings. DS2 didn't have a ring for walking in water (which was really necessary in DS1) or in the Abyss etc etc. Kind of made the four rings thing into overkill (at least some of them were forced for some of the covenants). Having four rings should mean switching them around all the time.
I don't get it, there was a sense of weight in DSII, and movement speed differed with armor weight.
You couldn't roll while locked on in BB unless you mean the dash. It's not the same though, BB uses the same lock on controls as DSI and Demon's. I don't know how to explain it, but it feels like you are magnetized to the enemy during lock-on.
DoubleTake
Member
There is no sense of weight to Ds2 movement, especially when compared to the other games. Also your movement speed does not change with the amount of armor you wear, just roll distance.
Also BB has dashing in 8 ways as opposed to Ds1s 4. If you notice in BB you can dash towards someone at a 45 degree angle and you can dash backwards at a 45 degree angle. And yes you are magnetized to the enemy while locked on. It always keeps you facing the enemy and helps to get attacks in faster. Ds2 loses this sense of speed because you roll and completely face away from an enemy, have to wait for the character to turn back and face them, then swing.
Imru’ al-Qays;169082147 said:
This. People always want something to change for their convenience and dont take into consideration how it will effect the overall experience and what made these games such cult hits in the first place.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
If Dark Souls 3 implemented constant checkpointing I'm sure people would say the exact same thing: "I have no urge to constantly replay the same content when I die." Sometimes you have to look past what you find immediately entertaining and try to apprehend the effect it'll have on the game as a whole.
No they probably won't limit rolling directions, they mean the animation quality and smooth precision that DSII completely lacked, at a glance it looked like Dark Souls movement but really it was kind of like an offbrand copy of how Dark Souls played with really shitty timings and hitboxes on everything, no weight to it or anything.
In Dark Souls it felt like every step you took was deliberately moving you forward, in DS2 it was just far more obvious you were watching animation play while your character model moved the direction you wanted it to, also dumb shit like swords resting in mid air on your shoulder.
I was thinking of the stamina regeneration then, which is effected by weight. I don't know, I definitely feel the weight in DSII. There's more tiers of equip burden so you really feel the effect of heavier armor. Let's not forget DSI had some dumb backflipping Havel nonsense.
I prefer DSII's lock-on system TBH. You can do some tricky stuff, and it feels a lot smoother for me.
DaciaJC
Gold Member
L3 jumping is fantastic news. Bonfire warping from the start has me rather concerned, though.
Astral/H3X
Member
As a person who made some strictly bow and arrow characters in both DS and DS2 (fuck you soul memory), I am excited to know that bows are being tuned as primary weapons in DS3.
DoubleTake
Member
I was thinking of the stamina regeneration then, which is effected by weight. I don't know, I definitely feel the weight in DSII. There's more tiers of equip burden so you really feel the effect of heavier armor. Let's not forget DSI had some dumb backflipping Havel nonsense.
I prefer DSII's lock-on system TBH. You can do some tricky stuff, and it feels a lot smoother for me.
Yea youre right about the stamina regen that was definitely a thing. I personally didnt like the staggered tiers. Yes you can feel a difference as you wear heavier stuff but its never visually represented. Wouldve been better with more clear breakpoints imo.
Oh I agree that ninja flipping havels was very dumb and how they did the endurance stat wasnt very thought out.
I just feel the animations in 2 lack the weight from the previous games. In Ds1/BB When I run its feels like im running, when I lock on and slowly circle strafe it feels like my character is actualy stepping not shuffling in mid-air. Of course different strokes for different folks but imo it works and looks alot better in the other games.
More Fun To Compute
Member
You pretty much had to wear a ring of sacrifice at all times or use the ring of being a scrub, or whatever it's called, that reduced the hollow penalty. Then you had to put on that super annoying ring of the king to open doors. I would really rather have two slots and not have to deal with busy work on this level.
I'm really curious to know why that's a "concern", since that was actually good in DSII, the Chosen undead in Dark Souls triggered the warping in the first place. The Monarch thousands of years later could then warp from the very start instead of needing to trigger it.
It didn't affect the game in any negative way as far as I can see.
Unless people are being stupid and assuming you can warp to bonfires you've never been to, which is like why would you think that, or better yet why would they ever do that?
Portugeezer
Member
Hope the bow is as viable as in Dragon Dogma.
Nah, people just equating being able to warp anywhere with this meaning that OF COURSE the world design will be simpler as a result. As if there's any connection between the two.
I really, really doubt that instant warping from the start was what created the level design issued in DkS II. In fact, I'd largely wager that it was implemented as a result, not a cause of.
It's not like you can't have both. Just because they didn't do it as well in one game doesn't mean that they're suddenly unable to improve on things. The world design in BB was also excellent and that had warping from the off.
Backtracking through old areas I've been through a few times doesn't really add anything to me, and it never made it cult hit for me since I started with Demon's Souls, which if you think about it, uses a DSII-like warping system as well.
Imagine Fallout 3 not having a fast travel system and how much a pain in the ass it would be to go back and forth between places. The difference here is the Souls series isn't even a fraction of the size of Fallout 3, and it doesn't have as much of a reason to walk between places because it's a whole lot more linear, so it doesn't seem as big of a deal to exclude warping, but that doesn't mean it isn't a waste of time, though.
Like I said before, generally the only reason I backtrack is for buying items, spells, upgrading weapons, leveling up or doing other mundane tasks. Excluding warping hurts my experience more than anything, because I won't want backtrack however long it takes to go shopping. As far as I'm concerned, it's a quality of life change.
More Fun To Compute
Member
It was a good design choice in DS2 because it was less about exploration and more about just getting to the next checkpoint in relatively linear levels. If you couldn't warp from the start in DS2 you really would be getting angry with all the backtracking you had to do through rooms packed with enemies.
Sticky&Sweet
Banned
I would rather backtrack through an environment than never see it again.
Except Shaded Woods.
Except Shaded Woods.
Wait this paranoia over warping is from people thinking DSII was designed around it? Now it all makes sense, but that is ridiculous, DSII's level design was because of bad planning, nothing more, hell the Elevator going UP from a windmill down into the depths of the Iron Keep tells you everything about that game's level design.
Miyazaki was the one who loves everything being interconnected properly without using impossible space, hence Bloodborne being pure shortcut porn.
Me too, and I don't really get the fervent opposition to it. It can make you work for it like it does in DS1, but it's the right design choice.
DoubleTake
Member
For me backtracking through areas means becoming much more familiar with the world and gives it a better sense of "place". That first playthrough I never found myself complaining about having to backtrack through areas, especially when I had gotten a better understanding of how everything interconnected. Getting the lordvessel and being able to warp felt like an actual reward for all the time I spent being marooned in Blighttown.
Not being able to warp makes the depths or TOG actually feel way underground and not just a level. A feeling that a place like the Gutter never evoked. Its much more than just backtracking for supplies or merchants, it makes the game world feel real large and menacing.
Like others have said BB has excellent individual level design but areas dont greatly connect except for one and you never get the feeling of being in a no turning back situation since you can always leave and go somewhere else.
Of course Im speaking heavily about a first playthrough here and on subsequent go's this backtracking could be an annoyance. But then it goes back to the first playthrough for the answer.
If the game is designed around no warping at the start, areas will naturally all be connected and have shortcuts that allow getting back to places quickly, and then you throw in a master key that allows the player to skip portions of the game to get back to warping as quickly as possible. Guess what I just described(the first half of Dark Souls 1). It did it the very best and it sucks that feeling might not be returning for the sake of convenience. Hopefully its simply a case of not knowing everything about how the game will operate.
DS2 was designed to have you exploring a whole country. The opening area shows you far away in the distance both Drangleic Castle, Heide and the Forest of the Giants. It is supposed to take over a big distance. Of course there wasn't going to be a secret door that took you between Heide and Forest of the Giants, because the game is blatantly telling you "hey those places are far apart". You can go between them, in a boat and via a giant crow, through the No Man's Wharf.
Bloodborne is far from shortcut porn compared to DS1 tho. DS1 is actual shortcut porn. BB is barely for ages 17 and up wrt to shortcuts.
Lux R7
Member
that's not even what bothers me. To me the main problem is Iron Keep being a Bowser Castle. The architecture doesn't make any sense. Did someone live there??
DaciaJC
Gold Member
Because the best moments of Dark Souls (for me) were when I had no recourse but to push ahead, the journey from the Depths to the bottom of Blighttown and up to Firelink Shrine being the outstanding example. The overwhelming emotions of relief and triumph upon hearing the Shrine's dulcet tones, of knowing that I had conquered that hellhole through sheer willpower, were the pinnacle of the Souls experience. Having the ability to warp between bonfires from the get-go, and thus being able to restock my collection of moss or upgrade my weapon or even simply try a wholly different path in the world, would have drastically reduced the depth of that struggle.
And people are right to be concerned with the quality of the world design when it's built around allowing for unlimited bonfire warping. That "feature" is probably why the post-Lordvessel areas of Dark Souls mainly resulted in dead ends. Why bother to carefully craft connections between areas when players won't bother to use them because warping is a more accessible solution to getting from point A to point B? Some have brought up Bloodborne, but even in that game, as others have pointed out, the world was not as interconnected as Dark Souls, and most of its shortcuts simply existed to streamline boss runs within levels.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't get feelings like that playing the game. It feels perfectly large and menacing to me because warping isn't stopping me from going through it as I normally would otherwise. I also highly doubt warping is going to stop Miyazaki from adding his shortcuts all over the place. DSII's problem was a troubled development, and they had to cut and paste locations around unfortunately.
DoubleTake
Member
I think its more a psychological thing. Knowing you have the option to run lessens the tension than if you didnt have that option.
Oh I dont doubt that shortcuts to bosses will be there and levels themselves will be complex at all. Its the complexity of connections between actual levels.
But yea agree to disagree. If I have to give up no warping from the start for Ds1 style movement and gameplay then so be it lol
SatelliteOfLove
Member
The answer is clearly much fewer bonfires.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Bloodborne already did that, and it simply isn't a substitute for what DS1 did. It's simply impossible for a game that has warping from the start to have world design that compares to DS1's, because even if the world design is identical the way that you interact with it will be totally different. There is no way to replicate the feeling of being lost miles from home in a game where you can warp anywhere whenever you want.
I'm not bothered in the least if the levels don't have the same level of connection. While it's very cool and I'll be glad if they manage it Demons Souls and Bloodborne each had better level design which takes precedence over that.
Very happy to hear about the bows I was a huge user of bows in the first 3 games. Also happy to hear about the dual wielding capabilities as that's all I did in DSII.
Very happy to hear about the bows I was a huge user of bows in the first 3 games. Also happy to hear about the dual wielding capabilities as that's all I did in DSII.
This is why no Souls game, Bloodborne included, will ever be as good as the first half of Dark Souls.
I don't see warping as an escape, I mean, you still have to progress through the game normally, there is no easy way out.
It's just a convenience for me to be able to upgrade weapons without having to backtrack through several minutes of stuff I've already done.
People that don't like warping are probably the ones that love backtracking. In DS1, I remember tracking all the way down Ash Lake to ancient dragon, thinking that's only it and having to backtrack while being cursed. Fun. Nope. Challenging. Nope. Frustrating and annoying. Yep. I'll take the warping.
Sounds to me that they are really combining the best elements of 1 and 2 (DS1 backstabs aside, and I want my fucking shield breaks)
Yes this wouldn't surprise me at all. With fewer bonfires, shortcuts will still matter
Yes this wouldn't surprise me at all. With fewer bonfires, shortcuts will still matter
FalsettoVibe
Member
Why are people sad about the warping? Maybe don't use it?
The Xtortionist
Member
I'm in favor of warping. If they want to reproduce a Blighttown-style experience, they can always limit the number of bonfires, or make certain bonfires unable to be warped to and from. Maybe extend DS1's kindling system to enable warping or something. Plenty of ways to balance it.
Because some believe it will affect level design. I see that but Miyazaki is in the helm so I wouldn't worry so much. My problem is that I would not be able to not use it.
Because, as quite a few people pointed out, the ability for any player to instantly warp from one end of the game to the other means the level designers may focus less on interesting shortcuts between the various zones. DS2 and even Bloodborne are very different from DS1 in that respect.