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[popyea]

The best part of DS1 pre warping was that it made exploration feel dangerous and tantalising. The further you push forward the further you are from safety and the harder it will be to get back. It made the choice to push forward or trek back meaningful. If you can just warp back to a spot without enduring anything in between, you never feel like you're far from refuge. I want to feel like a lonely adventurer trapped between a rock and a hard place. This feeling is why finding a shortcut or making it back to base or discovering a new merchant/npc felt so good.

 

[Fancy Clown]

I do think warping only being available halfway through the game and super interconnected levels are great choices, but super interconnectedness alone isn't the most important thing in terms of level design. The design of each individual area takes presendence because you could have a collection of the most intertwined, connected levels ever and it wouldn't matter and ounce if they were mediocre or shit. Bloodborne however had pretty consistently great level design which made up for the fact you could easily warp out of a stressful environment, or not get to two other ones from where you are.

 

[Anustart]

The best part of DS1 pre warping was that it made exploration feel dangerous and tantalising. The further you push forward the further you are from safety and the harder it will be to get back. It made the choice to push forward or trek back meaningful. If you can just warp back to a spot without enduring anything in between, you never feel like you're far from refuge. I want to feel like a lonely adventurer trapped between a rock and a hard place. This feeling is why finding a shortcut or making it back to base or discovering a new merchant/npc felt so good.

Why was it dangerous or tantalizing? You could level up at any bonfire, you lose nothing with death in ds1 either really with that in place. Sure you could warp back to majula and "feel safe" but you still would have to leave anyway.

 

[popyea]

Why was it dangerous or tantalizing? You could level up at any bonfire, you lose nothing with death in ds1 either really with that in place. Sure you could warp back to majula and "feel safe" but you still would have to leave anyway.

I don't understand what you're saying. I'm not making a comparison between leveling up mechanics. Level up waifu with warping vs bonfire levelling and no warping are fundamentally the same (only difference is a loading screen). I'm comparing your ability to leave a place and return to it. The fact that you can't move freely between your most extreme point of progress and the hub areas heightens the tension of pushing through unexplored areas. eg. if you're cursed, you can't just warp to a merchant/ if your weapon breaks you can't just warp to a blacksmith. (I'm aware you can repair at a bonfire with the repairbox, but that's just one optional method that should probably be balanced better to not undercut the design)

 

[Anustart]

I was saying being able to warp doesn't make the game any easier.

Not being able to warp in the beginning of ds 1 didn't make going forward dangerous or tantalizing. Why would it? You just respawn at the nearest bonfire.

Only possible thing that could happen was breaking a weapon, big whoop.

Warping doesn't stop the struggle, as you have to push forward anyway. Just makes getting around less of a chore.

 

[Adaren]

Why was it dangerous or tantalizing? You could level up at any bonfire, you lose nothing with death in ds1 either really with that in place. Sure you could warp back to majula and "feel safe" but you still would have to leave anyway.

I'll never forget the trek down to Blighttown and Quelaag.

From the Capra Demon downward, you just keep finding one nightmare scenario after another, each seemingly more horrible than the last, and with each bonfire you just think "Dammit, this is terrible and stressful and scary and difficult, but I can't turn back now...I've gone too far." And you keep pressing on because you have no other choice.

And it feels fantastic.

Dark Souls 2 never had any moments like that. In Dark Souls 1, having each bonfire be a level-up location, its own little isolated safe zone in a hostile world, made the oppression of the journey feel so much heavier because there was literally no other way out.

There was nothing more disappointing for me than teleporting out of The Gutter to go level up in Majula. I SHOULD have felt terrified and alone and stressed in the Gutter, but I wasn't actually trapped there because I could go back to my sunny safe seaside city anytime I wanted. That sucked.

EDIT:

And the irony, of course, is that a moderately experienced Dark Souls player can make the run from the Capra Demon to Quelaag in a handful of minutes.

But a new player? Hours.

And when your health is slowly ticking away as you crawl aimlessly through the poison swamp, you'll consider giving up more than once. But then you think of the hours you spent slowly inching forward through horror-movie butchers, slimes dropping on your head, giants rats, freaky-eyed frog things, dragons covered with more teeth than skin, near-invisible toxic dart shooters who sent you scurrying back to the bonfire multiple times before you even figured out what was hitting you, fire breathing dogs that always seem to duck under your weapon, convoluted platforms constantly threatening you with the risk of a 200 foot fall, and a dozen other challenges and small adventures unique to each player, and you realize you can't give up. You've gone through too much. There's no way out and you need to keep going deeper, even if there's no end in sight.

That first emotional experience is what makes Dark Souls so beloved to so many people. Warping damages this significantly, and it shaves off no more than a couple minutes here and there once you learn the intricacies of the map. I'll gladly spend a few minutes traversing an masterfully crafted world if it means I get more powerful experiences like the trip down to Blighttown.

 

[Persona7]

Hey guys isn't it like suuuper weird how this game is in the Beta phase and they don't want to show it publicly, yet all those Pre-Alpha builds were shown at the conferences.

What are From so afraid of!?!?

Seems like they are just locking everything down after the dark souls 2 lighting/torch changes with the final game not looking like what they previewed.

 

[Sanctuary]

To get hyped, or not to get hyped, that is the question.

Dark Souls 2 (yeah, yeah it was still "good") didn't live up to the expectations.

Bloodborne definitely didn't either, despite still being a good game. It was far too short, too limited with character builds and weapons and relied far too much on crappy, copy/paste Chalice Dungeons for "replayability".

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I don't understand what you're saying. I'm not making a comparison between leveling up mechanics. Level up waifu with warping vs bonfire levelling and no warping are fundamentally the same (only difference is a loading screen). I'm comparing your ability to leave a place and return to it. The fact that you can't move freely between your most extreme point of progress and the hub areas heightens the tension of pushing through unexplored areas. eg. if you're cursed, you can't just warp to a merchant/ if your weapon breaks you can't just warp to a blacksmith. (I'm aware you can repair at a bonfire with the repairbox, but that's just one optional method that should probably be balanced better to not undercut the design)

Exactly. And I think Dark 1 handled blacksmithing pretty well, actually - you could repair your weapon or upgrade it to +5 anywhere, but you needed to go to Andre to upgrade it to +6 (or to the guy in New Londo to upgrade it to magic, or to Vamos in the Catacombs to upgrade it to fire). Since you get your first large shards and green shards at the bottom of Blighttown you have a reason to weigh the pros and cons of returning to Firelink at exactly the moment when it seems most daunting (and it's at that exact moment when you discover the water wheel shortcut, ideally, leading to tremendous relief).

Similarly, there's tons of other stuff you can only do at certain places in Dark 1. You can only upgrade your estus flask at Firelink. You can only buy magic at Firelink (or from Quelana at the bottom of Blighttown for advanced pyromancy). You can only buy Purging Stones to cure curse in the Parish and the shortcut to Lower Burg. And there's optional content that you might want to do - returning to the asylum, Darkroot Forest/Basin, Havel.

It was absolutely brilliant, and allowing teleportation from the start of the game means that DS3 won't be able to compare with that element of DS1. I'm still looking forward to the game, and I'm sure it'll excel DS1 in various ways, but in this respect it's essentially guaranteed to fall short.

I find people's inability to appreciate the benefits of a world that you actually have to navigate on foot to be a bit disingenuous, to be honest. Do people complain that there's no fast travel in GTA5? These are games where navigating the world is part of the point: Dark Souls isn't just a set of obstacle courses, it's one of the few games where you'll want to go out of your way to return to an earlier point of interest.

 

[popyea]

I was saying being able to warp doesn't make the game any easier.

Not being able to warp in the beginning of ds 1 didn't make going forward dangerous or tantalizing. Why would it? You just respawn at the nearest bonfire.

Only possible thing that could happen was breaking a weapon, big whoop.

Warping doesn't stop the struggle, as you have to push forward anyway. Just makes getting around less of a chore.

It's not about being easier or more difficult, I don't think either of the other games are easier because they have warping. I think they make exploration less satisfying because you never feel far from home. This is all about the framing and psychology of no warp exploration, it's not tangible so some might feel it more than others. Saying that you just respawn at the nearest bonfire like it's nothing is ignoring the potential circumstances each bonfire can involve. A bonfire can have you between two sections of the game with a gauntlet of enemies in either direction. That's a completely different feeling to a bonfire that can warp you back, as there never feels like there's anything to stop you getting back home. It makes exploration feel accommodated and inevitable, rather than the feeling of "I shouldn't be here" that you normally feel when you're far from home.

Also, you don't "have to push forward anyway" if you can warp back. How can you claim that?

 

[Anustart]

There is fast travel in gta though, and I'm thankful for it. If I feel like driving I do, if not, taxi it is.

There's no reason to be upset about warping other than a valid concern about level design.

Edit: if your goal is to complete the game, then yes you have to push forward without warping.

 

[JudgmentJay]

Because some believe it will affect level design. I see that but Miyazaki is in the helm so I wouldn't worry so much. My problem is that I would not be able to not use it.

I'm not sure why they would be. Bloodborne allowed you to warp from the beginning of the game, and its level design is extremely good. Arguably the best in the Soulsborne series.

Honestly I'd prefer no warping as well, but not because I'm afraid of bad level design. I'd say there's about a 0% chance of that with Miyazaki at the helm. I just really like the idea of trekking across the world on foot... it makes the journey feel more memorable to me. Climbing up out of Blighttown and realizing you're back at Firelink Shrine was a really awesome moment, but I mean... it's only one moment. As long as bonfires are as few and far between as they are in Bloodborne, I see no problem.

 

[Easy_D]

Seems like they are just locking everything down after the dark souls 2 lighting/torch changes with the final game not looking like what they previewed.

That was more me pointing out how bullshit it is that a lot of E3 Footage is called Pre-Alpha when they're probably further along than Dark Souls 3 :lol

 

[popyea]

There is fast travel in gta though, and I'm thankful for it. If I feel like driving I do, if not, taxi it is.

There's no reason to be upset about warping other than a valid concern about level design.

Edit: if your goal is to complete the game, then yes you have to push forward without warping.

I have to assume you're being obtuse on purpose, but you can beat the game even if you warped. And if you think level design is a valid concern then I guess we both agree because that's what I'm arguing for here.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I'm not sure why they would be. Bloodborne allowed you to warp from the beginning of the game, and its level design is extremely good. Arguably the best in the Soulsborne series.

Bloodborne has great level design, though I'd still put Demon's Souls above it. But its world design is several steps back from DS1's, which is the pinnacle of the series. DS1 has relatively short and simple levels, but they interconnect in brilliant ways, and these interconnections are used to enhance the player's immersion in ways that Bloodborne is never able to duplicate.

 

[Adaren]

There is fast travel in gta though, and I'm thankful for it. If I feel like driving I do, if not, taxi it is.

There's no reason to be upset about warping other than a valid concern about level design.

Edit: if your goal is to complete the game, then yes you have to push forward without warping.

I think many people here are concerned with the emotional aspects of the Souls series. The feeling of hopelessness, of loneliness, of being trapped far away from home, of a cruel world that gives you nothing for free.

That feeling of being stuck on that one bonfire in the rafters of Blighttown, darkness all around you, thinking "This is really hard, if I can just farm some more Souls, I can level up...", then getting punched off the edge while exploring and mauled by tiny dogs immediately after.

The Gutter could have been that too, but warping to a home-y hub area just doesn't work with that. And I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that some people value that emotional experience more than a few minutes of on-foot travel (which many find immersive and satisfying [damn, this map is pretty complex, but I know it really well!] and, ultimately, fun).

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

I was saying being able to warp doesn't make the game any easier.

Not being able to warp in the beginning of ds 1 didn't make going forward dangerous or tantalizing. Why would it? You just respawn at the nearest bonfire.

Only possible thing that could happen was breaking a weapon, big whoop.

Warping doesn't stop the struggle, as you have to push forward anyway. Just makes getting around less of a chore.

When you find your way to ash lake, and you take in its beauty, only to realize you cursed at the botton of the world and now have to climb back up.
But na you are totally right warping betweens bonfires is totally as challenging as climbing up the great hollow, through blighttown on half hp.

 

[Get'sMad]

This game is gonna rule

chill y'all

 

[Anustart]

I have to assume you're being obtuse on purpose, but you can beat the game even if you warped. And if you think level design is a valid concern then I guess we both agree because that's what I'm arguing for here.

I'm saying you have to progress, forward, on foot. You can't warp forward to skip stuff.

If warping isn't your bag, that's fine, walk every where amd ignore the warp feature.

Edit: regardless, I'll love the game with or without warping. Let's change the subject to something that matters. We should be able to run around naked like in rust.

 

[UrbanRats]

I use Warping all the time in all the Souls game (as well as Bloodborne), and getting the Lord's Vessel is one of my priorities when i restart DkS1... but i do get the argument against it: BlightTown was so infernal because of no warping.
Finding a bonfire didn't mean you could take a break from that hell, noooope, gotta push through.

 

[feel]

I adored the sense of commitment and journey down into hell and the struggle to get back from many parts of the first half of DkS1. The trips to Blight Town and then further into Ash Lake, or the Catacombs were super memorable stuff for me because I could not easily leave those "shitty" places in a blink of an eye.

Bah..

 

[Soodanim]

This game is gonna rule

chill y'all

Exactly.
They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did Bloodborne. They learned more.
They're already showing us how 3 uses 1 as a base more than 2.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Dark Souls already has more longevity than Bloodborne or Scholar of the First Sin. The reason for this is because it's a more interesting world to explore and plan routes through. It's not because of pure difficulty in terms of bosses in NG+6. Not because it has the best UI, most convenient fast travel, best roll iframes, best online features. RPGs are about building worlds and any RPG dev that doesn't always put this first in every way is just doing it wrong. Even Bethesda understand this.

 

[Rymuth]

Did a search in this thread and got no results, so here goes

Some impressions of the Demo from Vaatividya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfMzk8VXRxU

 

[Renekton]

I think many people here are concerned with the emotional aspects of the Souls series. The feeling of hopelessness, of loneliness, of being trapped far away from home, of a cruel world that gives you nothing for free.

Only DS1 seems to go for that.

DS2 and BB make me feel like a muthafuking badass. BB especially doesn't give any feel of hopelessness or loneliness... I'm crashing in everyone's party, hunting prey with glee and conviction.

 

[Indrid Cold]

By far my most vivid memory in gaming period was blundering through blightown, spending over an hr stuck at the first bonfire half way down, wondering if I should push on or go back. Made it down found the great hollow and ash lake, joined the dragon covenant at lvl 13. Got cursed twice on the way back up. Fought quelagg, barely won with help from that NPC summon, rang the bell, got destroyed by ceasless, then finally figured out the waterfall trick. The feeling as I arrived back at the surface, 36hp left, no estus half my gear broken I'll never forget. I sat there for 20 min just listening to the music. I then went through the catacombs and got all the way to where the lord vessel seal was...and had to go all the way back up. If I could have just left at any time to get better it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable. I'm sure the indivual parts(levels) will be good in ds3 but if they don't connect like ds1 I don't see it being as memorable to me, and judging by the replies many others too.

Either way I hope they put out some gameplay footage soon.

 

[JediLink]

Warping is shitdicks. Metroid Prime had no warping, shit was fine, and the game was better for it. SotN had very limited warping - you certainly couldn't warp from every single save point to every single save point. Dark Souls first half is the GOAT. Fuck warping.

 

[Gbraga]

We're a Dark Hero hunting the former Lords of Cinders who were ressurected. Eclipse is an important item (?) for the game, the sun is leaking shit.

I don't understand what any of that means yet, but it makes me super excited for this game's story.

I should probably control my expectations though, I must not allow myself to go crazy with speculations, that will only set myself for disappointment. I was so sure "when the giants crossed the sea" was about the Anor Londo gods, and, well, I was absolutely wrong.

 

[Neoweee]

Exactly.
They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did Bloodborne. They learned more.
They're already showing us how 3 uses 1 as a base more than 2.

That's not really the case, not even in Miyazaki's own words. They're definitely abandoning a few of the things people disliked most about 2, but saying it is more like 1 really requires some jumps. Agility is out, and that's about it mechanically that has been dumped.

 

[justgames7604]

Now inorder to prep for this, as it draws near i will be playing either darksouls 2 or bloodbourne.

Is bloodbourne the better game? since i hear alot about DS2 being worse than DS1

 

[Neoweee]

Now inorder to prep for this, as it draws near i will be playing either darksouls 2 or bloodbourne.

Is bloodbourne the better game? since i hear alot about DS2 being worse than DS1

For a single playthrough, Bloodborne. For replayability or multiplayer, DS2.

 

[F0rneus]

Now inorder to prep for this, as it draws near i will be playing either darksouls 2 or bloodbourne.

Is bloodbourne the better game? since i hear alot about DS2 being worse than DS1

DS2 being worse than DS1 is like Terminator 2 being worse than T1. It absolutely is. But it's so good anyway it doesn't matter.

Play both!

 

[convo]

Warping is shitdicks. Metroid Prime had no warping, shit was fine, and the game was better for it. SotN had very limited warping - you certainly couldn't warp from every single save point to every single save point. Dark Souls first half is the GOAT. Fuck warping.

Nobody cares, everyone wants warping from everywhere once you've been there and lit the bonfire so the whiners have won, it just something to accept.

 

[Ashe Nei]

Why was it dangerous or tantalizing? You could level up at any bonfire, you lose nothing with death in ds1 either really with that in place. Sure you could warp back to majula and "feel safe" but you still would have to leave anyway.

What was tantalizing and dangerous is the trip, the distance between bonfire. I remember feeling anxiety when having close to 50.000 souls in the way down to Blightown and praying to not fall or be killed in the way, or how fucked up i felt when going up to Valley of Dragons/Firelink shrine.

You had to find your way through, not only to feel safe, but also to be able to continue your travel and reach the place you wanted to go or go back (depending of what you had/wanted to do).

 

[120v]

warping was fine for the world layout of DS2... but yeah having it from the beginning took away the sense of trepidation

i do hope DS3 gives you the ability a little earlier than DS1, though. i feel like you should've gotten it after kellog ... going back and forth through sen's was such a pain in the ass

 

[Mr. Poolman]

I adored the sense of commitment and journey down into hell and the struggle to get back from many parts of the first half of DkS1. The trips to Blight Town and then further into Ash Lake, or the Catacombs were super memorable stuff for me because I could not easily leave those "shitty" places in a blink of an eye.

Bah..

Yes you could. Sometimes I think I was the only one who used Homeward Bones.

And people still forget that DS1's world was far smaller and with less enemies. Warping was a wise decision on DS2 and on a lore standpoint it made sense as well.

 

[Ratrat]

I don't understand what you're saying. I'm not making a comparison between leveling up mechanics. Level up waifu with warping vs bonfire levelling and no warping are fundamentally the same (only difference is a loading screen). I'm comparing your ability to leave a place and return to it. The fact that you can't move freely between your most extreme point of progress and the hub areas heightens the tension of pushing through unexplored areas. eg. if you're cursed, you can't just warp to a merchant/ if your weapon breaks you can't just warp to a blacksmith. (I'm aware you can repair at a bonfire with the repairbox, but that's just one optional method that should probably be balanced better to not undercut the design)

It's like 5 minutes max to run through areas. Getting cursed in the Depths and running back to Undead Burg is just an annoying time waste not challenging. DS2, Demons and Bloodborne had the right idea.

 

[takriel]

Exactly.
They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did Bloodborne. They learned more.
They're already showing us how 3 uses 1 as a base more than 2.

In 4 years:

They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did Bloodborne. They learned more.
They did 3. Learned even more.
They're already showing us how Bloodborne 2 seems to incorporate all that they've learned thus far.

 

[HeelPower]

Warping killed tension in some parts of BloodBorne.

Getting kidnapped into unseen village was an amazing moment.Creepy place with incredibly tough enemies.

But naaah you can warp out of it almost instantly to avoid any difficulty spikes and plan a different route through hunter's dream.

Same exact thing with Nightmare frontier...Fuck warping.It dilutes the experience because you never felt stuck or overwhelmed by any location.

 

[Vitor711]

Exactly.
They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did Bloodborne. They learned more.
They're already showing us how 3 uses 1 as a base more than 2.

Can I add this:

They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did DLC for 2, it was phenomenal and addressed nearly all the game's issues and was incredible value for money.

 

[Tarkus]

Can I add this:

They did 1. It was great.
They did 2. It wasn't as great. They learned.
They did DLC for 2, it was phenomenal and addressed nearly all the game's issues and was incredible value for money.

Agreed. The three-part DLC was the best part of the game and one of the best DLCs I've ever played. Great bang for the buck.

 

[Gbraga]

Warping killed tension in some parts of BloodBorne.

Getting kidnapped into unseen village was an amazing moment.Creepy place with incredibly tough enemies.

But naaah you can warp out of it almost instantly to avoid any difficulty spikes and plan a different route through hunter's dream.

Same exact thing with Nightmare frontier...Fuck warping.It dilutes the experience because you never felt stuck or overwhelmed by any location.

Why would you, though?

I never personally got the whole "I like warping because if I'm stuck at a place, I can go somewhere else to explore" thing either. Why would I do this? It's terrible.

If I get to a new place, first thing I'll do is warp back and see if anything changed in previous areas, then I'll complete this new area, and after I do I'll get to the next lamp and go back and check every NPC to see if anything's changed.

You can also farm for days in some relatively early and easy location to overpower this area you're stuck in, but why would you?

No warping also doesn't stop you from going back, it just makes it more of a chore.

I'm not even in favor of free warping, I agree that Dark Souls did it best of all the games, but I really don't get some of the reasons people give for that.

To me, it's all about world design, not getting stuck without being able to take the easy route out. This never even happened to me in Dark Souls. I went all the way to the golden fog wall in Demon Ruins on my first playthrough, didn't find a way to keep going after that, went to google, google said "come back later", I went back to Firelink Shrine. Simple as that.

People mention stuff like being stuck in Tomb of Giants to argue against warping or Ash Lake to argue for warping, but both of those come out ironically, in my opinion, because areas like Tomb of Giants that are not connected to anything are the reason there even is warping in this game in the first place, and Ash Lake doesn't make a case for or against warping, it makes a case for a shitty area being shitty. With or without warping, I never go there again unless I really really need the weapon or the covenant for my current build. Fuck Ash Lake.

And there's also the Abyss, you can warp back from there without the Lordvessel, because otherwise you'd then actually be stuck, they could implement something like that for Ash Lake, just remove the first ladder, make it a one way drop and then have the ability to warp back from there, even without the Lordvessel.

 

[eot]

Bloodborne has great level design, though I'd still put Demon's Souls above it. But its world design is several steps back from DS1's, which is the pinnacle of the series. DS1 has relatively short and simple levels, but they interconnect in brilliant ways, and these interconnections are used to enhance the player's immersion in ways that Bloodborne is never able to duplicate.

Yup, I agree completely. That's one of the bigger disappointments with BB for me. Even the few alternate paths between areas that exist are more or less pointless for getting around the world, you only need them for certain storylines. And there are so many dead ends after bosses.

No warping also doesn't stop you from going back, it just makes it more of a chore.

In the same way that earning back souls you lost is a chore. There are many ways in which player punishment makes the experience of playing these games better. Being cursed in the depths and having the ability to warp to the Parish and buy a purging stone is not the same as having to make your way back there. Nor is running out of moss in Blighttown, or even just deciding you need to go back to Andre. Traversing that world many times over in different ways is what grounds you in it and is part of what makes it memorable. It's not just a set of zones you get to the end off then strike off your list.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Why are people sad about the warping? Maybe don't use it?

It affects design. The don't use it argument has always been nonsense.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Yup, I agree completely. That's one of the bigger disappointments with BB for me. Even the few alternate paths between areas that exist are more or less pointless for getting around the world, you only need them for certain storylines. And there are so many dead ends after bosses.



In the same way that earning back souls you lost is a chore. There are many ways in which player punishment makes the experience of playing these games better. Being cursed in the depths and having the ability to warp to the Parish and buy a purging stone is not the same as having to make your way back there. Nor is running out of moss in Blighttown, or even just deciding you need to go back to Andre. Traversing that world many times over in different ways is what grounds you in it and is part of what makes it memorable. It's not just a set of zones you get to the end off then strike off your list.

I remember struggling with O&S with my 1st character (mage build), wanting to go back for better spells from Big Hat Logan, but not wanting to traverse Sen's again (I didn't find the Sen's shortcut). Quite a different experience than being able to warp to wherever to get whatever you need.

 

[Houndi101]

Did a search in this thread and got no results, so here goes

Some impressions of the Demo from Vaatividya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfMzk8VXRxU

Miyazaki mentioned that great sword wielding is now directly inspired by Guts from Berserk

 

[Gbraga]

In the same way that earning back souls you lost is a chore. There are many ways in which player punishment makes the experience of playing these games better. Being cursed in the depths and having the ability to warp to the Parish and buy a purging stone is not the same as having to make your way back there. Nor is running out of moss in Blighttown, or even just deciding you need to go back to Andre. Traversing that world many times over in different ways is what grounds you in it and is part of what makes it memorable. It's not just a set of zones you get to the end off then strike off your list.

I really don't see a difference other than "it takes longer". Running out of moss means nothing, I never even take a lot with me, not even on my first playthrough, only got cursed in Duke's Archives, but by then you can warp already. One could even argue that it makes how open it is less meaningful for future playthroughs, since you'll just plan your route to avoid backtracking, and will only visit dead ends when you have warping/they're no longer dead ends (I wouldn't, though, because being more open at first means a ton more build defining weapons to get in a few minutes from starting, which was a major problem with Bloodborne, but that has more to do with the lower amount of weapons, I guess).

I once backtracked from Anor Londo to Andre because I just remembered I didn't give him the ember and upgraded my weapon with him. It wasn't challenging, it wasn't particularly interesting, it wasn't very fun either, it just took a few minutes more than it would otherwise. I could also just kill O&S without upgrading my weapon, but I didn't want to, one of the best bosses of the game, I wanted to fight with the weapon I chose for that playthrough, which was a Lightning Shotel. Anor Londo is already out of the interconnected part of the world anyway, which, as I said in my previous post, is the reason we even have warping in Dark Souls 1, because there are major areas that don't connect back to anything.

I still think the way Dark 1 did was the best, and having half the game being connected is still a lot better than none of it, but eh, whatever. I trust Miyazaki with level design.

The dead ends after bosses thing in Bloodborne, that was indeed quite disappointing, especially since that happens as early as Old Yharnam, but I think Hypogean Gaol connecting back to Old Yharnam made up for it.

Dark Souls had its share of dead ends too, it just has a lot more content than Bloodborne, so it's less of an issue. Bloodborne also presents a lot of its branching paths through optional content, which has a direct impact on this. The required parts are quite linear in progression (the coffin skip changed that a bit, but still not so much, and it was patched anyway).

My first reaction was "it wasn't already?", haha.

This was my take away from the warp system as well. The wonderful shortcuts like the elevators form undead burg to firelink, the waterwheel, etc. all become redundant and they wont bother designing them or putting them in because there is no point.

I think a nice in between would be having a few major bonfires you can warp between but only from those bonfires.

That would be nice, yeah.

With less but larger areas though, we're probably already looking at something like that, it's just that it won't be just major bonfires, because we'll only have those major bonfires.

Dark Souls didn't have the ridiculous bonfire placement of Dark II, but it still had quite a bit of them, I'm still not sure of why they felt we needed two bonfires in Tomb of Giants. Sen's Fortress probably didn't need a bonfire either, but I'm not complaining about that one

 

[bathsalts]

It affects design. The don't use it argument has always been nonsense.

This was my take away from the warp system as well. The wonderful shortcuts like the elevators form undead burg to firelink, the waterwheel, etc. all become redundant and they wont bother designing them or putting them in because there is no point.

I think a nice in between would be having a few major bonfires you can warp between but only from those bonfires.

 

[Piers]

The supposed question of why Miyazaki had returned to Dark Souls directing was pretty interesting. Sounds like typical executive demands.

 

[gai_shain]

And there's also the Abyss, you can warp back from there without the Lordvessel, because otherwise you'd then actually be stuck, they could implement something like that for Ash Lake, just remove the first ladder, make it a one way drop and then have the ability to warp back from there, even without the Lordvessel.

How do you get into the dlc without the lordvessel in the first place?