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Destiny 2 (PC/XB1/PS4, Sep 8) CG reveal trailer, pre-orders, gameplay debut May 18th

The poster above did it for me.

I've also explained it in more detail earlier in this thread (or the last one, I forget) when you were on another negative rant about the game. I had a whole post explaining the differences between classes and the benefits in both PvE and PvP in response to someone who asked.

I don't care about other loot games. I don't want Destiny to be other loot games. I want it to be Destiny and its simplicity is part of what of what makes it Destiny.

Greater customization doesn't necessarily eliminate simplicity. Greater customization was actually something that was promised from the beginning. I feel like D2 will go a long way to trying to correct the shortcomings of the predecessor. D1 is tons of fun, but to act like things can't be improved is a bit much.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Have you played any of the raids? Those prove they have an impact on pve. You need certain classes to help beat areas and bosses. Could they be more diverse sure. But Titan protects or buffs the others don't. Hunter bow helps add more damage to bosses others don't. Warlock can res others don't. So their are differences in builds and powers and weapons and armor etc. Classes have sub classes and within those sub classes have even more options.

I don't think he's saying classes aren't unique. I think he's saying there's a lack of build diversity within those classes. Compare Destiny to other loot games like Diablo 3 and it becomes more apparent, but I think this is an area where Destiny 2 should improve on going by what Bungie has stated.
 

Two Words

Member
Have you played any of the raids? Those prove they have an impact on pve. You need certain classes to help beat areas and bosses. Could they be more diverse sure. But Titan protects or buffs the others don't. Hunter bow helps add more damage to bosses others don't. Warlock can res others don't. So their are differences in builds and powers and weapons and armor etc. Classes have sub classes and within those sub classes have even more options.

I said diversity of class builds. As in the diversity of one titan build versus another tank build. A few titan abilities between classes and subclasses isn't really diversity. I'm talking about real diversity that is found in a loot game.
 

Two Words

Member
The poster above did it for me.

I've also explained it in more detail earlier in this thread (or the last one, I forget) when you were on another negative rant about the game. I had a whole post explaining the differences between classes and the benefits in both PvE and PvP in response to someone who asked.

I don't care about other loot games. I don't want Destiny to be other loot games. I want it to be Destiny and its simplicity is part of what of what makes it Destiny.

That poster didn't actually touch on the question I asked. And you are literally saying Destiny is both diverse and simple and that you don't want it to be more diverse because you want it simple. Pick a side.
 
Personally, I'd prefer to see more build variation and crazier abilities and exotics in PVE, but it just seems like the conflicting needs of trying to balance things for PVP hold it back. It's not horrible as it is, but it just feels like they could really open up the PVE experience if they went a bit crazier with it.
 

KingV

Member
Personally, I'd prefer to see more build variation and crazier abilities and exotics in PVE, but it just seems like the conflicting needs of trying to balance things for PVP hold it back. It's not horrible as it is, but it just feels like they could really open up the PVE experience if they went a bit crazier with it.

Agreed. You might end up with some builds that are broken, or some random loot that is mega op, but it's PVE, who cares as long as it's fun?
 
For most people, the changes were invisible. You'd have to talk to the sandbox designers as to why the changes were made, and it would be ludicrous to assume the reason was to make the game worse from their perspective. "I haven't heard an informed argument against mine" is incorrect because your perspective that longer cooldowns and momentum killers are worse is a subjective opinion, not an argument. Presumably, there could be players who also efficiently played the old cooldowns and movement and found them to be exploitative. You're going to have a bias if a nerf limits something you enjoyed, but it may have been done for a reason that you would find legitimate if you had it explained to you.

I'm not even disagreeing with you on the changes being necessary and better. Which designs are fun is highly subjective. Which designs are fair is also, but you can use data and statistics about skill distribution to lend objectivity to the process.

One of the things I notice right away about going back to Reach is that I can aim and normally return fire without being impacted by incoming fire. To me, that feels better. I've never liked flinch because I feel like it disempowers the player from fighting to the best of their ability. I can understand why you feel similar things about the patches. These things are argued about internally, but they are all in some way design decisions with subjective results.

It's not about opinions, it's about intelligent game design. You don't slow down responses because you punish aggressive playstyles and encourage camping and passivity, and that is not good game design in any scenario. Aggression should be rewarded if the player is skilled enough, and it does not have to be at the expense of tactical and strategical play. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Destiny's sandbox is cluttered with "differences in opinions" from people who had to find the vision for the game instead of walk into it with one. I've heard plenty from their sandbox guys and from playing with several designers myself to surmise that they didn't have any clue what they were doing. And we are playing their results, not their intentions.
 
No, I have not seen all 1000 employees. But I can evaluate their effect on the game.

I'm not just going with Zoba. I'm going with my experience, the many people who have been discussing this in the Destiny OTs for literally years, the hundreds of posts analyzing the Crucible in r/crucibleplaybook, and the testimony of many top-level streamers.

Against Bungie's 1000 employees (only a few of which actually matter, btw), I'm willing to believe that the literally millions of people who play every day have a more valid perspective on how the game feels.

Statistical data has its place. But so does the community. I don't think that Bungie has done a good enough job in engaging the community in how Destiny should be evolving.

They make changes to the meta that are mind-boggling, they misrepresent the changes, and are obstinate about reverting changes that are universally despised.

So sure, it's all subjective. But that's good. And Bungie should listen.
Statistical data doesn't just "have its place", it is a means to acquire feedback on the game without the bias of groupthink, which is a core problem with communities everywhere (or inside Bungie for that matter).

What do you mean that you think the millions of people playing Destiny have a "more valid" perspective on how the game feels? The irony is that statistical analysis is also the means to get feedback from every one of those millions.

Design might be subjective, but its effects can be observed objectively through data analysis.

I've heard plenty from their sandbox guys and from playing with several designers myself to surmise that they didn't have any clue what they were doing.
If you're actually this much more skilled and intelligent at design then please apply and try to get some work done on the game. I've listened to this type of bravado on game forums for a long time now and it gets fucking old.
 

Dreez

Member
From the trailer I get the vibes that:

(1) open, urban maps
(2) citizens in combat zones? we'll really get to know the human condition this time round
(3) did the Cabal "hack" the Traveler to temporarily recall Ghosts? First mission could be to awaken our Ghost, reverse of D1 the Ghosts finding us.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
That poster didn't actually touch on the question I asked. And you are literally saying Destiny is both diverse and simple and that you don't want it to be more diverse because you want it simple. Pick a side.

No, I actually didn't say that.

But please, continue telling me what my opinion on the game should be.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
You literally argued that Destiny 1 class builds are diverse, but you don't want it to grow much more because you like that it is simple.

I literally said they could improve them. I was arguing your claim that it was a problem in the first Destiny. I disagree. I don't think it was

That doesn't mean I don't want them making them more diverse. I just don't want them overcomplicating it.

Why are you so damn negative and angry about this game?
 

Two Words

Member
I literally said they could improve them. I was arguing your claim that it was a problem in the first Destiny. I disagree. I don't think it was

That doesn't mean I don't want them making them more diverse. I just don't want them overcomplicating it.

Why are you so damn negative and angry about this game?

Saying it is not diverse is not saying it is a problem. If you like it as a simpler game, that is fine. But you cannot argue simultaneously that the class builds are diverse while also saying that you don't want them much more involved BECAUSE you want it to remain simple. Those were your words. That isn't even being negative and angry about the game.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Saying it is not diverse is not saying it is a problem. If you like it as a simpler game, that is fine. But you cannot argue simultaneously that the class builds are diverse while also saying that you don't want them much more involved BECAUSE you want it to remain simple. Those were your words. That isn't even being negative and angry about the game.

I absolutely can though. This is not a hard idea to grasp: I think the class builds are diverse. I think they can also be made more diverse. But I don't want Bungie to overcomplicate things with a thousand stats.

I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion. We'll leave it at that.
 

Two Words

Member
I absolutely can though. This is not a hard idea to grasp: I think the class builds are diverse. I think they can also be made more diverse. But I don't want Bungie to overcomplicate things with a thousand stats.

I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion. We'll leave it at that.

Words like "diverse" and "simple" only have meaning if they are relative to some agreed basis. Destiny is a loot game. Relative to other loot games, Destiny's class builds are simple, very simple. To argue that they are diverse is to argue that they are similar to other loot games that are more diverse. Simply arguing "I think Destiny's class builds are diverse because this is what I consider diverse" is to just arguing for us all to follow your definition of "diverse". This is silly. As a loot game, Destiny's class builds are simple. If you want to argue that they are diverse, it has to go behind "Well I think it is diverse". As I said before, that isn't a discussion. That's just us declaring our opinions with no substance.
 

ZehDon

Member
... Design might be subjective, but its effects can be observed objectively through data analysis...
I like your overall post, but I wanted to highlight this part in particular. Data analysis by itself is only useful for quantifiable items. Things like repeat play time, and the specific habits therein. Past that, and you're extrapolating; "players play more, therefore they enjoy the game", for example. It sounds obvious, and I'm sure you're aware of it, however it is worth noting and repeating that this only tells a portion of the overall picture when dealing with something like a game, and a reliance on strictly data driven game design can have overall negative impacts.

To put that into context, the original Destiny had an overall design goal of high repeat play time. A "hobby game", as Bungie put it. To help meet that goal, Bungie obfuscated the identifying process for the legendary, or purple, engrams, to extend the gameplay loop/loot grind. Purple engrams had a low chance to actually produce purple items. From a data point of view, this met the intended goal: players played more, and kept playing, to acquire the loot. Mission accomplished, right? Unfortunately, it introduced a level of abstraction to the process that players found un-enjoyable, despite the amount of time they played. That disconnect is difficult to quantify. Bungie ultimately re-worked the process to improve player satisfaction, even though it shortened the loot grind, and triggered more players to exit the loop. Subjective feedback is a valuable tool for making the game simply enjoyable.

It's no coincidence that Destiny's "addiction" mechanics drew a lot of discussion when the game first launched. Bungie clearly applied a strictly data driven approach to their design, and have had to re-adjust the game and it's mechanics to account for subjective, difficult to quantify, feedback. It's not uncommon for people to say "I put hundreds of hours into Destiny, but it's a poor game". A strictly data point of view was used to modify, or balance, the PvP element as well. I think its fair to say that this has had divisive results.
 
Well, I just preordered the $99 Limited Edition GameStop version. Never played the first one but the girl I knew who was working there is a huge Destiny fangirl who loved it and I got interested enough to preorder it.

No statue cause they were out though. Bummer.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Huh. So it's confirmed to be on Steam? Can you claim the beta code and do a Steam refund?

Your refund question has already been answered, but I'd like to note that CD Keys isn't affiliated with publishers but rather resells keys taken from physical stock purchased in bulk. To be fair, it is perhaps as reputable as a reseller can be, however as it's not an authorised distributor of the game, it will not receive beta keys to distribute, and I'd take the mention of Steam with a grain of salt as it's not going to be privy to such information this far off from release.
 

psyfi

Banned
I hope they add more vehicles and maps to compliment them.
Vehicles in Destiny felt like a remnant from Halo, and that they didn't actually have any purpose or utility in the sandbox. The Sparrows were useful for zipping around obviously, but the tank things (I always forget what they're called) were pretty pointless.
 
Vehicles in Destiny felt like a remnant from Halo, and that they didn't actually have any purpose or utility in the sandbox. The Sparrows were useful for zipping around obviously, but the tank things (I always forget what they're called) were pretty pointless.
They became pointless, because Bungie nerfed them into the ground.
 

Lebneney

Banned
Okay, so what is everyone getting this on. I'm torn between PS4 and PC.

Advantages of PC are that the online is free and (objectively) kb & m.

Advantages of PS4 to me are that I already pay for online and have a Vita to do remote play (plus now remote play to PC).
 

Two Words

Member
Okay, so what is everyone getting this on. I'm torn between PS4 and PC.

Advantages of PC are that the online is free and (objectively) kb & m.

Advantages of PS4 to me are that I already pay for online and have a Vita to do remote play (plus now remote play to PC).

PC is going to be a giant question mark until we see how this game plays. I don't think Destiny 1 would work well on PC. But that game was designed for a console experience. So we'll see how Destiny 2 is designed around PC.
 
Okay, so what is everyone getting this on. I'm torn between PS4 and PC.

Advantages of PC are that the online is free and (objectively) kb & m.

Advantages of PS4 to me are that I already pay for online and have a Vita to do remote play (plus now remote play to PC).

Being optimistic another big advantage on PC is higher resolution and framerate. Destiny will feel amazing at 1440 and 60fps.

However, I stick with the advice of "play where your friends are."
 
Just preordered the game at GameStop for the Cayde figure (even if I don't get it there, I'd pay 5 bucks for it anyway).

Thing is that I wanted to get it at Best Buy so I can use my gamers club discount on it, but the limited edition with the expansion pass is only at Gamestop. I might switch my pre order to that instead.
 

Zen Aku

Member
Well, I just preordered the $99 Limited Edition GameStop version. Never played the first one but the girl I knew who was working there is a huge Destiny fangirl who loved it and I got interested enough to preorder it.

No statue cause they were out though. Bummer.

So you pre-ordered it because of a lady. Gotcha ;)
 
Destiny 2 Lore expained by expert My Name is Byf - Fireteam Chat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz4xhlE7_GQ
Don't like that he's sharing that theory with Rasputin and the Traveler. Pretty sure that was debunked after a grimiore card revealed that the Travaler never left and stay in sol system of its own will. Travaler was simply tired of running.

Rasputin made a back up plan in case the Travaler turned out to be "betraying" humanity. Which wasn't the case. He never launched it and proceeded to shut down leaving humanity to its fate.

Rasputin in the final hour
I AM ALONE I survived alone. I cast off the shield and I shrugged my shoulders so that the billions fell off me down into the ash. They made me to be stronger than them and to learn and I learned well:

IT is alone and IT is strong and IT won. Even over the gardener and she held power beyond me but the gardener did not shrug and make herself alone.

IT always wins.

IT is the darkness and the Gardener is the Traveler

The Traveler decides to no longer run
This has been such a long chase. This will be the place you will fight. Fight and win.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
A big thing I hope they do is have entirely separate balancing numbers for PvE and Crucible. It sucked to keep getting fun PvE stuff nerfed due to the demands of the Cruicible.
 
Statistical data doesn't just "have its place", it is a means to acquire feedback on the game without the bias of groupthink, which is a core problem with communities everywhere (or inside Bungie for that matter).

What do you mean that you think the millions of people playing Destiny have a "more valid" perspective on how the game feels? The irony is that statistical analysis is also the means to get feedback from every one of those millions.

Design might be subjective, but its effects can be observed objectively through data analysis.
Statistics are not a way to find solutions to problems. It is just data. It is not the end-all-be-all of feedback and has its own bias problems.

The user experience (ie. millions of players) is far more valuable for finding solutions to problems. Now, I do not mean just taking the majority opinion and implementing it but rather parsing through community feedback to see what novel solutions have developed.

There is a rather wide gulf between statistics and groupthink. I hope you can see that.
 

SMOK3Y

Generous Member
I just hope weapons between PVE & PVP are seperate as i pretty well played less than 70hrs in crucible out of 1500+hrs
 

Foxxsoxx

Member
Being optimistic another big advantage on PC is higher resolution and framerate. Destiny will feel amazing at 1440 and 60fps.

However, I stick with the advice of "play where your friends are."

Not to mention field of view.

Destiny would be so much better with a larger field of view. The question is if Bungie would allow that. They're very weird when it comes to parity.

If they do it right, PC would easily be the best way to play if you don't mind losing exclusives, which for Destiny are pretty good chunks of content.
 
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