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[derExperte]

Coupled with the fact Windows 10 will be free for everyone, even counterfeit keys from what I read.

Kinda, you can upgrade but your license won't turn into a legitimate one.

Also if someone wants to wait for the first 'service pack': http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-redstone-will-come-in-two-waves-june-and-october-2016

 

[Inuhanyou]

Afaik the X1 will be able to use DX12 too so there's another incentive for devs to use it.

Would that not introduce porting issues to PS4? I know there are certain features on PS4 not exploited by multiples because of the issue with porting the code in the other direction

 

[aravuus]

So it is OK not to reveal the full potential of DX11 (not to mention hardware which it uses) and always strive for something new? But wait, that is what PC is all about and will always be.

I wonder, how many games generally use the full potential of DX11/1/2? Do we have seen any game on PC with the visual quality of the Samaritan demo? Nope, even to this day nothing comes close.

Why should we painstakingly try to squeeze everything out of DX11 when we can just jump aboard the DX12 train, get the same benefits and even more without breaking a sweat and raise the roof of possibilities even higher?

What a weird thing to say, of course it's okay to move forward.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

But does that matter?

Well, I guess for most people no, it doesn't matter. But as a PC gamer I want to see more games like The Last of Us (which uses full potential of the PS3) but on PC. There is very small number of games on PC which developed from the ground up with DX11 in mind, most of them uses DX9 or DX10 and often not even optimized to work with DX11, Batman: Arkham City is a crystal clear example of this.

Of course, starting with this year more game will be released only with DX11 support since the next-gen consoles already available and more games will be developed just for them and PC, but it is too late for DX11 cuz DX12 is already on the way and... well, you know.

Why should we painstakingly try to squeeze everything out of DX11 when we can just jump aboard the DX12 train, get the same benefits and even more without breaking a sweat and raise the roof of possibilities even higher?

Now this we have yet to figure out.

What a weird thing to say, of course it's okay to move forward.

It is always much easier to give up on something rather than make it even better.

 

[justsomeguy]

Besides, in 2012.....

Same place as your image was taken from, and on the link in my post:

weird.

edit: maybe it means the DELTA change between those two dates? Your 70% figure makes way more sense.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well, I guess for most people no, it doesn't matter. But as a PC gamer I want to see more games like The Last of Us (which uses full potential of the PS3) but on PC. There is very small number of games on PC which developed from the ground up with DX11 in mind, most of them uses DX9 or DX10 and often not even optimized to work with DX11, Batman: Arkham City is a crystal clear example of this.

Of course, starting with this year more game will be released only with DX11 support since the next-gen consoles already available and more games will be developed just for them and PC, but it is too late for DX11 cuz DX12 is already on the way and... well, you know.

Your never going to have 'full potential of PC' on PC. Because the hardware of the PC depends completely on the person's configuration.

DX12 will allow a much higher baseline with lower end HW, but there's still a limit to what it will be able to do.

In short, what your asking for is not viable to start with.

You just asked for a game that looks like "The Samaritan" to begin with, even though it was just a tech demo and not representative of an actual game's graphics in the first place. You should start by reigning in your expectations

 

[justsomeguy]

Microsoft is saving money by ending the fragmentation of Windows; they will no longer have to continue supporting older operating systems.

Unlikely to be the case, our support policy is well documented and unlikely to be impacted by free consumer Windows 10.

 

[jmga]

Afaik the X1 will be able to use DX12 too so there's another incentive for devs to use it.

I think that is the only incentive to use DX12 instead of Vulkan.

 

[The Cowboy]

The problem you've got is although Windows 10 is a free upgrade, I think Average Joe will struggle to upgrade. Most people don't even know what DirectX is.

I don't think so this time, usually an upgrade of an OS requires a bit a work - this time however you can go from Windows 7/8/8.1 to Windows 10 simply by using Windows update, its basically fully automatic.

Anyone getting a game that requires the new OS could have the info right on the install screen just saying "you need Windows 10 to play this game, please open windows update and select the free upgrade to upgrade to Windows 10", they go to the windows update page and click 1 button and its upgraded automatically.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Your never going to have 'full potential of PC' on PC. Because the hardware of the PC depends completely on the person's configuration.

DX12 will allow a much higher baseline with lower end HW, but there's still a limit to what it will be able to do.

In short, what your asking for is not viable to start with.

Yeah, I know that what I want is impossible, but one can dream, right?

You just asked for a game that looks like "The Samaritan" to begin with, even though it was just a tech demo and not representative of an actual game's graphics in the first place. You should start by reigning in your expectations

It doesn't matter if it was a demo or not, but more important is the fact that it's a clear example of what DX11 can do when developers using all of its potential.

 

[justsomeguy]

I think that is the only incentive to use DX12 instead of Vulkan.

Driver support, developer support (documentation/programming environment), platform reach, etc.

Appreciate that platform reach may also take people towards Vulcan, my general point is there's many other factors than "It works on x1".

 

[Dictator93]

Your never going to have 'full potential of PC' on PC. Because the hardware of the PC depends completely on the person's configuration.

DX12 will allow a much higher baseline with lower end HW, but there's still a limit to what it will be able to do.

In short, what your asking for is not viable to start with.

You just asked for a game that looks like "The Samaritan" to begin with, even though it was just a tech demo and not representative of an actual game's graphics in the first place. You should start by reigning in your expectations

Well it is totally possible, it just requires a smaller sub set of the PC community as potential customers.

That is just unplausible given how numbers driven sales are in the AAA industry.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Unlikely to be the case, our support policy is well documented and unlikely to be impacted by free consumer Windows 10.

That support policy is usually extended because of fragmentation and if they fragmentation can be significantly lowered than they will no longer have to extend support on older operating systems. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley have both echoed this.

I think that is the only incentive to use DX12 instead of Vulkan.

Xbox One support of DX12 is the only reason? How about the huge amount of hardware support it offers or the amount of game engines they are already pledged to support DX12?

Would that not introduce porting issues to PS4? I know there are certain features on PS4 not exploited by multiples because of the issue with porting the code in the other direction

Porting to the PS4 shouldn't be affected but porting to the Xbox One will become extremely fast.

Some devs have already ported titles in a single day IIRC.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

What, you can't get a free upgrade yet to Windows 10, right?

When is W10 coming?

 

[Poodlestrike]

What, you can't get a free upgrade yet to Windows 10, right?

When is W10 coming?

Some time later this year. RTM is apparently in June, full release later that summer or early in the fall.

 

[justsomeguy]

What, you can't get a free upgrade yet to Windows 10, right?

When is W10 coming?

For one year, upgrades to Windows 10 will be free to Windows 7 and 8 owners.
After one year, anyone who hasn't yet upgraded will need to buy an upgrade. It stays free for first-year upgraders.

The release date hasn't been announced yet.

 

[The Cowboy]

What, you can't get a free upgrade yet to Windows 10, right?

When is W10 coming?

Later this year, anyone running Windows 7 or higher can switch to Windows 10 for nothing as long as you upgrade within the 1st year of release.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Some time later this year. RTM is apparently in June, full release later that summer or early in the fall.

Confirmed summer release.

 

[justsomeguy]

That support policy is usually extended because of fragmentation and if they fragmentation can be significantly lowered than they will no longer have to extend support on older operating systems. Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley have both echoed this.

I'll believe it when I see it - corp customers have their whole own timescale compared to consumer. Then again MJF and Paul Thurrott know way more than me!

 

[dragonelite]

Not all, the older VLIW GPUs from AMD and Ivy-Bridge will not be covered.

So every gpu from the 6xxx HD series?

 

[gossi]

I'll believe it when I see it - corp customers have their whole own timescale compared to consumer. Then again MJF and Paul Thurrott know way more than me!

Just to chip in - if you've ever worked for a large corp, you'll know that indeed corporate customers move at a different pace. Something like 95% of cash points (ATMs) still run Windows XP. I'm sat in an office across from a Windows NT 4 PC.

 

[justsomeguy]

Just to chip in - if you've ever worked for a large corp, you'll know that indeed corporate customers move at a different pace.

I work for Microsoft, alongside teams who do desktop rollouts for big corp. So yeah I agree

 

[jmga]

Driver support, developer support (documentation/programming environment), platform reach, etc.

Appreciate that platform reach may also take people towards Vulcan, my general point is there's many other factors than "It works on x1".

Vulkan is going to have an official SDK and open source debugging tools. EA, Unity, Blizzard, Epic and Valve are contributing to Vulkan. Microsoft marketing has eclipsed the support Vulkan is receiving from the industry.

And also Vulkan has an advantage over DX12, the existence of open source drivers, which developers can use to learn from and implement Vulkan better and faster.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve-lunarg-vulkan&num=1

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Thanks guys.

Cool, my plan was to avoid Windows 8 all along and jump straight from 7 to 10 for free. I bought Windows 7 OEM for £30 as I read rumours W10 would be free so I'm glad I didn't spend over double the money for the newest OS.

 

[gossi]

I work for Microsoft, alongside teams who do desktop rollouts for big corp. So yeah I agree

I know Just for others reference really.

 

[Seanspeed]

I haven't been following much of DX12, other than the GTX 970 (my card) apparently supporting it. I wonder what kind of realistic, real world performance increases for, say, Mass Effect 4 one could see between Win 8 + DX11 versus Win 10 + DX12.

Well only the developer would ever know. And maybe not even then.

What making Win10/DX12 a minimum requirement would mean is that they could do *so much* more in their game. They could go crazy on all sorts of CPU/draw call intensive tasks. Things that just wouldn't be possible on DX11. So it's not just about improving performance, it's about broadening the possibilities.

This is why we should all want this to happen. Screw the people who refuse to upgrade, especially those offered it for free. The quicker we remove the DX9/11 shackles, the better.

 

[dragonelite]

Vulkan is going to have an official SDK and open source debugging tools. EA, Unity, Blizzard, Epic and Valve are contributing to Vulkan. Microsoft marketing has eclipsed the support Vulkan is receiving from the industry.

And also Vulkan has an advantage over DX12, the existence of open source drivers, which developers can use to learn from and implement Vulkan better and faster.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=valve-lunarg-vulkan&num=1

A bit skewed given its a reference driver?
This would be more helpful if nvidia, AMD and mobile gpu makers open sourced their drivers given that is the hardware the engine will run on.

 

[jmga]

Xbox One support of DX12 is the only reason? How about the huge amount of hardware support it offers or the amount of game engines they are already pledged to support DX12?

Vulkan can work even on more hardware than DX12, is an open specification with no operating system restriction. Many engines have pledged to support Vulkan, UE4, Unity, Source 2, Frostbite, Nitrous Engine...

 

[FordGTGuy]

I work for Microsoft, alongside teams who do desktop rollouts for big corp. So yeah I agree

We are directly talking about consumer support here and consumer support is definitely not the same as business support.

Vulkan can work even on more hardware than DX12, is an open specification with no operating system restriction. Many engines have pledged to support Vulkan, UE4, Unity, Source 2, Frostbite, Nitrous Engine...

Even so, saying that Xbox One support is the only reason is incredibly silly.

 

[dr_rus]

That's what worries me with DX12. My DX11 experience has been remarquably stable save for a few crashes here and here, and Ubisoft games on PC have very rarely caused me headaches, but with a much lower level API like DX12 which lets the topography of the hardware show through stability and performance issues could potentially be much more severe than they are now with Watch Dogs or Unity.

DX12 would actually force them to put more effort in their PC versions just to nail down performance and stability, let alone if they want to add another graphical layer on top of their console base. In the hands of Ubisoft Kiev DX12 is dynamite, and that's not good for us.
I know Nvidia have worked with them multiple times in the past and could financially entice them but I'm highly sceptical Ubisoft are that interested by DX12 on PC, even more so if DX11 is sufficient to port the gameplay and graphical features to PC.
Hopefully the "limited" (so we are told) DirectCompute will convince them to invest in DX12.

Oh I'm not worried. I just don't think that DX12 will bring much performance improvements across the board - especially for AAA multiplatform titles which won't be able to use PC's higher CPU power limits because they'll still need to be built for console's lowest common denominator. LODs are fine and all but they hardly provide a seriously better graphics, just some rather minor improvements.

DX12 adoption should be rather fast with it being essentially a free upgrade from both software and hardware perspective. Having it on XBO in addition to Win10 means that devs will have D3D12 renderers in no time and they will just reuse them on PC. But the question of what the performance will be and how stable they will be is out there for now.

 

[injurai]

I'm fine with this. Win10 is a free upgrade for everyone so I think pushing things forward this way is reasonable. Gotta make the cut somewhere, we are well into this generation now so dropping old tech support should come as no surprise.

 

[justsomeguy]

We are directly talking about consumer support here and consumer support is definitely not the same as business support.

Same lifecycle - just that businesses can pay extra for custom support once our standard lifecycle is over. Consumers don't have that option.

 

[Seanspeed]

Oh I'm not worried. I just don't think that DX12 will bring much performance improvements across the board - especially for AAA multiplatform titles which won't be able to use PC's higher CPU power limits because they'll still need to be built for console's lowest common denominator. LODs are fine and all but they hardly provide a seriously better graphics, just some rather minor improvements.

DX12 wont be all about hitting power limits with the CPU's, though. Just the hugely increased capacity for draw calls should actually raise the ceiling for multiplatform games in general. This capability already exists on consoles, but not on PC, so the developer has to develop with that in mind. With DX12, that limitation is gone.

And of course there's just the efficiency of it. Scaling performance across cores can be improved, so even if the performance is at the lower end with a lower CPU, it can scale up better with faster/more powerful CPU's instead of just becoming bottlenecked because one core has been overused and is hitting it's max.

 

[MDSLKTR]

BF5 and frostbite games not constrained by the old gen will tear asses, I will be ready. Still remember how in awe I was when BF3 came out

 

[Ushay]

I'm game. Would really push the envelop graphically for all EA games.

 

[DSix]

No thanks. Win7 + Vulkan would do nicely tho.

 

[injurai]

No thanks. Win7 + Vulkan would do nicely tho.

Vulkan isn't ready, and there is no reason to support new technology stacks on old technology stacks.

 

[Kezen]

Oh I'm not worried. I just don't think that DX12 will bring much performance improvements across the board - especially for AAA multiplatform titles which won't be able to use PC's higher CPU power limits because they'll still need to be built for console's lowest common denominator. LODs are fine and all but they hardly provide a seriously better graphics, just some rather minor improvements.

DX12 adoption should be rather fast with it being essentially a free upgrade from both software and hardware perspective. Having it on XBO in addition to Win10 means that devs will have D3D12 renderers in no time and they will just reuse them on PC. But the question of what the performance will be and how stable they will be is out there for now.

We have seen some serious boosts with Mantle in multiplatform (console lead) games, I assume our Ivy/Haswell CPUs will have a very easy time with DX12. Running AAA multiplats at 60fps in CPU limited scenarios is not easy even with fast CPUs, with DX12 this should not be a problem at all.

I genuinely think multiplatform games will benefit from DX12 on PC and it opens up interesting possibilities for devs to tap into the horsepower of higher end PC GPUs.

 

[orava]

Sticking with windows 7 is just silly and it has been like that couple years now. Especially if you get a new PC.

 

[dragonelite]

DX12 wont be all about hitting power limits with the CPU's, though. Just the hugely increased capacity for draw calls should actually raise the ceiling for multiplatform games in general. This capability already exists on consoles, but not on PC, so the developer has to develop with that in mind. With DX12, that limitation is gone.

And of course there's just the efficiency of it. Scaling performance across cores can be improved, so even if the performance is at the lower end with a lower CPU, it can scale up better with faster/more powerful CPU's instead of just becoming bottlenecked because one core has been overused and is hitting it's max.

It's probably a given that DX12 pc and console have for the majority the same interface.
So you can probably reuse a lot of code on both the Xbox one and Pc versions
of the engine.

 

[justsomeguy]

It's probably a given that DX12 pc and console have for the majority the same interface.
So you can probably reuse a lot of code on both the Xbox one and Pc versions
of the engine.

More than that - with a Universal App you have one executable that works on both platforms.

 

[gossi]

More than that - with a Universal App you have one executable that works on both platforms.

Aye, this is what is guiding most of this thinking - with Windows 10, you can make a Universal App, which means it runs across Windows 10 running devices (PC, Xbox One blah blah). That means DX12 API etc.

Basically, if you're game developing it lowers cost (by standardisation) and significantly increases performance. The industry will go this direction, as long as consumers do.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Good. The industry has to help push technology forward. This is one of the better ways to do it.

 

[ScepticMatt]

I wonder what kind of realistic, real world performance increases for, say, Mass Effect 4 one could see between Win 8 + DX11 versus Win 10 + DX12.

Massive CPU performance efficiency boost. An order of magnitude less drall call overhead and almost perfect multi-thread utilisation (95%+) when using DX12 ExecuteIndirect.

Applications have much more direct control over the GPU. Shaders can be compiled offline and scheduling is much better with command lists and bundles. This results in much more stable frame times and much less need for driver hacks (i.e. waiting for optimization drivers).

There are some new GPU features in higher DX12 tiers and DX12.1 too, but none of the current AMD/Nvidia hardware is fully compliant yet.

 

[Kezen]

Massive CPU performance efficiency boost. An order of magnitude less drall call overhead and almost perfect multi-thread utilisation (95%+) when using DX12 ExecuteIndirect.

Applications have much more direct control over the GPU. Shaders can be compiled offline and scheduling is much better with command lists and bundles. This results in much more stable frame times and much less need for driver hacks (i.e. waiting for optimization drivers).

There are some new GPU features in higher DX12 tiers and DX12.1 too, but none of the current AMD/Nvidia hardware is fully compliant yet.

What is the driver's job with DX12 ? I know the driver has a huge responsability with DX11 and is in charge of quite a lot of things but what about dx12.

 

[BigTnaples]

Hell yes. I'm all for this.


Especially since Windows 10 is free for most users...

 

[alexandros]

I hope they go with Vulkan instead. The time to leave DX behind is now.

 

[injurai]

I hope they go with Vulkan instead. The time to leave DX behind is now.

How about we wait for Vulkan to prove it's ready.

 

[Compsiox]

I already run both Battlefield 4 and Hardline at around 140fps. With better graphics and DirectX12 I'm hoping it will be about the same for future battlefields and battlefront.

 

[alexandros]

How about we wait for Vulkan to prove it's ready.

It's based on Mantle, it will be ready soon enough.