There are definitely good reasons to wait a while before upgrading.
Personally, I'm gonna jump in the Win 10 ship asap so good news for me.
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DICE's Johan Andersson wants Win10+DX12 as minspec for holiday 2016 Frosbite titles
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There are definitely good reasons to wait a while before upgrading.
Personally, I'm gonna jump in the Win 10 ship asap so good news for me.
There are a few. The map with the most is Zavod. The middle of the map between the middle buildings likes to disappear so you can see through the ground, the under area likes to have a one way wall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw25vXdRR0Q. Every no and then it gets a bit rainbowy across the ground. Dawnbreaker has a pretty big one that has never been fixed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOLfKz6z6mc its been there since release.
And there are plenty more all not fixed since release.
It means I'm a silly little primate who finds a company like Microsoft offering their brand new OS for free to be mesmerizing, and would rather let the other excited apes test this sudden messianic miracle en masse before I upset my warm and comfy habitat in the name of zoological Science
Baleoce
Member
I'll likely try and give it half a year to three quarters. Give the OS some time to get the inevitable critical updates in, and also give developers enough time to expand support to the OS for existing hardware / software. I had a lot of trouble with my sound card for the first few months of win8. Also gives time to scope out the general consensus of the OS.
It just seems like the prudent thing to do, especially as it replaces the license for your existing OS.
Mantle/DX12/Vuklan are not only enhancing GPU performance, but more importantly CPU performance. The age of single-core friendly DX11 needs to stop. With low level APIs, the user with older CPUs will get a tons of new performance, Mantle benchmarks are already showing this clearly.
DX12 + Ubi open world games = finally not messy PC performance caused by CPUs
Those are assets bugs, not rendering bugs.
Repi or any other DICE's graphics or engine engineer are not responsible for those.
It means I'm a silly little primate who finds a company like Microsoft offering their brand new OS for free to be mesmerizing, and would rather let the other excited apes test this sudden messianic miracle en masse before I upset my warm and comfy habitat in the name of zoological Science
Microsoft is saving money by ending the fragmentation of Windows; they will no longer have to continue supporting older operating systems.
I don't see anything in the first video? are you talking about the frame hitch near the end before disconnecting? thats more likely to be a general networking bug, its normal for games to hitch like that in those situations.
The second video shows an occlusion calculation bug, not a graphical rendering one
The game is trying to work out which objects are actually visible and it will turn off chunks of the level when it thinks they aren't visible so that the render doesn't waste time rendering them. But it isnt a rendering bug.In the first one there is a wall to the right where it shouldn't be. That is the entrance to an under pass.I don't see anything in the first video? are you talking about the frame hitch near the end before disconnecting? thats more likely to be a general networking bug, its normal for games to hitch like that in those situations.
The second video shows an occlusion calculation bug, not a graphical rendering one
But will Ubisoft support DX12 on PC ? My understanding is that it's a much more difficult API, expensive as well compared to DX11 so Ubisoft might chose to stick with DX11 for costs reasons, performance inevitable suffers but from the point of view of Ubisoft this could be the more cost-effective solution.
It's not at all surprising to find DICE jumping on the DX12 bandwagon considering they always had a focus on technology and PC. Ubisoft don't seem that "commited" to PC gaming hence why I suspect we won't see DX12 games (on PC) coming from them.
I'm sure they will make the most out of DX12 on the Xbox since it's a fixed platform but having a well performing and stable DX12 layer on PC is perhaps much more difficult and ergo expensive.
How well for them.
They're trying to avoid fragmentation, why wouldn't you upgrade for free and dual boot between the OS'? You don't want to get to the point where you can't upgrade for free. Even though I can imagine them only saying its for the year to move everyone faster onto W10 and then making it free for lifetime.It means I'm a silly little primate who finds a company like Microsoft offering their brand new OS for free to be mesmerizing, and would rather let the other excited apes test this sudden messianic miracle en masse before I upset my warm and comfy habitat in the name of zoological Science
dr_rus
Member
Yeah, considering their DX11 efforts so far I'll have to see their DX12 renderers before making such claims. There are a lot more places where you can screw up in DX12.
Baleoce
Member
An upgraded license replaces your old one.
Oh sure, if you've only got one license, better to be safe than sorry. Pretty sure I can get a couple of more free Win8 licenses from my uni so it doesn't really matter.
And when I said asap, I didn't really mean like day 0. I suppose I'll give it a month or two too.
That's what worries me with DX12. My DX11 experience has been remarquably stable save for a few crashes here and here, and Ubisoft games on PC have very rarely caused me headaches, but with a much lower level API like DX12 which lets the topography of the hardware show through stability and performance issues could potentially be much more severe than they are now with Watch Dogs or Unity.
DX12 would actually force them to put more effort in their PC versions just to nail down performance and stability, let alone if they want to add another graphical layer on top of their console base. In the hands of Ubisoft Kiev DX12 is dynamite, and that's not good for us.
I know Nvidia have worked with them multiple times in the past and could financially entice them but I'm highly sceptical Ubisoft are that interested by DX12 on PC, even more so if DX11 is sufficient to port the gameplay and graphical features to PC.
Hopefully the "limited" (so we are told) DirectCompute will convince them to invest in DX12.
The principle of Caution falls to its knees and sobs like a little child on this one. It doesn't put wings on my shoes, but the sounds it makes are very sweet and heartbreaking, so I am obliged to listen, at least for a time.
Sorry.
You wanted to know what they were getting out of this deal... well now you know.
You've so far added nothing but concern to this topic......
kraspkibble
Permabanned.
i have a 290 at the moment. i read it will support DX12? either way holiday 2016 is quite a bit away. i'll have definitely upgraded my GPU by then.
Yes, it will support DX12. All GCN cards are supported by DX12.
Or...his perspective on Johan's ambitions and how being forced onto Win 10 would affect him.
Locuza
Member
Cool story.
Not all, the older VLIW GPUs from AMD and Ivy-Bridge will not be covered.
In comparison to the whole game, the costs are very low.
We just need to look at Mantle Games like Thief.
An Unreal Engine 3 Game, getting a new API Render-Back-End from an external studio.
For Ubisoft, as one of the big players, it should be relatively easy to add DX12 Support.
Human beings are granted great many privileges in an open forum. Concern is one of them.
icecold1983
Member
its kind of hard for a game to ship with the foundational rendering tech not working, but frostbite 3 doesnt do johan any favors. how do you ship a fully native dx11 title at the end of 2013 with z fighting issues, polygon clipping and warping, and texture seaming filling the screen on a near constant basis. that hasnt been around since ps1. how do you include a particle system that can drop performance by 1000% in common use cases.
then theres the crashing. dice la is STILL identifying and fixing crashes in bf4 and the game is 1.5 years old. i dont even want to think of the results when the frostbite team doesnt have dx11 to hold its hand. uggghhh.
Mantle is only for the GCN though, with DX12 they would have to support Nvidia and AMD hardware, and Intel iGPUs.
Even if it was, would they ? I'm not so sure.
Indeed.
Pretty much all GPUs released within ~4 years are DX12 compliant, So the dx12 requirement is not an issue for games going to be released late 2016.
Also WDDM2.0 and thus Windows10 requirement is not that bad due to the upgrade offered by MS.
If it makes developers life a lot easier, we should be enthusiastic for the change as it will give us improved experience.
Windows 10 comes out in summer and the first Windows 10 games much later.
You have time to see how it works out.
CyclopsRock
Member
For what it's worth, I'm running the Win 10 Technical Preview at home right now and the drivers have been brilliant. The only one I had to go out of my way to install was NVidia for my GTX570 - and even before that it had drivers, they just weren't the latest. All my other stuff - USB microphone, camera, PCI-E wifi dongle, on board USB ports, KB/M etc - they were all working when it first booted. The latest Wacom drivers even worked for my girlfriend's Cintiq - I was impressed; It was the smoothest first-boot I've ever had, for sure. Assuming it's only going to improve between now and release, hopefully we won't have too much trouble.
I dont remember any of those issues from BF 3 or BF 4 beta.
Particle system in BF games is one of the most advanced from any engine. Full lit, full shadowed and cast shadows too, also tons of them on screen at once.
Agent_4Seven
Tears of Nintendo
So it is OK not to reveal the full potential of DX11 (not to mention hardware which it uses) and always strive for something new? But wait, that is what PC is all about and will always be.
I wonder, how many games generally use the full potential of DX11/1/2? Do we have seen any game on PC with the visual quality of the Samaritan demo? Nope, even to this day nothing comes close.
icecold1983
Member
cryengine3 particles do all of the above and dont tank perf by 1000%.
the problems didnt exist on such a scale in bf3. its specific to fb3.
Locuza
Member
1. Of course with Mantle it was more focused, but the costs were relatively higher for just one supported hardware-line.
Now you can share more or less a single render-back-end.
From Xbox One, AMD GCN, Intel to Nvidia.
It's not like there is zero hardware-abstraction and zero tools and validation layers.
2. To be honest, I'm also not quite sure.
Updating is made really easy though. Basically it gives you a message that upgrade is ready and after that it's just few clicks.
CyclopsRock
Member
But does that matter? It's like when car companies use their rally or F1 teams to develop new technology that eventually filters into their consumer cars; You don't need to be a rally driver to benefit from, I dunno, a more advanced gearbox. Not having reached the ceiling of DX11 doesn't mean DX12 won't bring performance increases.
JigglesBunny
Banned
Windows 10 is free and I'm running a GTX 980 so I'd imagine I'm pretty set regardless of how this turns out.
I'm not convinced by the cost-effectiveness just yet, very few DX12 games have been announced thus far (Fable Legends, the Oxide RTS). Will we see big AAA multiplats with a DX12 layer ? Assassin's Creed Victory, COD Black Ops 3, Battlefront etc..
derExperte
Member
Afaik the X1 will be able to use DX12 too so there's another incentive for devs to use it.
Last time I looked more people ran Windows XP than Windows 8 and 8.1 combined.
To be honest I absolutely agree DICE (and others) should push to Windows 10 w/ DirectX12 only. It would just cost them $ for a while.
Dictator93
Member
Sounds fine to me.
There is a difference between operating systems not supporting DX11 or GPU's not supporting it. It's cheaper to upgrade from vista to 7/8/10 than to buy a new gpu in most cases.
According to that very same steamsurvey over 77% of the gpu's in use support DX11.
Which shows us that if people ever decide to upgrade their OS, they will reap the benefits.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/?sort=pct
CryEngine3 partciles do not cast shadows actually. Unless You use geometry particles.
Locuza
Member
Well, aren't we talking about holiday 2016 and not this year?
With tight release windows and the late arrival of windows 10 with DX12 there will be certainly many guys which will wait and do nothing this year.
Those people who still run windows xp are probably still using PCs from 15 years ago and most of them don't use it for gaming. They aren't relevant unless they upgrade their hardware too. According to steam stats, about t 3.6% are windows xp 32bit users. Win7+ is around 88%
They're not locking you out of anything. They're simply saying, in about 18 months time, unless you have newer or more capable hardware, you simply won't be able to run the games they're doing. Don't see how it's different than any other time when what you have on PC no longer cuts the mustard. Can't be held back any longer, full steam ahead with DX12 if that's what they want.
Coupled with the fact Windows 10 will be free for everyone, even counterfeit keys from what I read. They could really get majority market dominance pretty quickly with Windows 10 this way.